[Otto Weigand, Agricultural Agent, University of Wisconsin-Extension]

Our next speaker is Mike Marlow and he’s going talk about guard animals and other – mostly about guard animals for livestock protection against predators. Mike.

[Michael Marlow, Wildlife Biologist, United States Department of Agriculture A.P.H.I.S. Wildlife Services]

Thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to be here. A quick little introduction. I’m Michael Marlow, I’m a Wildlife Biologist with U.S.D.A. Wildlife Services program, and I’m stationed out of Fort Collins, Colorado. And I’ve met several people here in the audience and they – they’ve asked me where I’m from, and I tell them Colorado and they’re a bit surprised that I came all the way out here for this except for this gentleman here in the front row, who knew that I was coming he wore his, ‘Got Grass?’ hat, I noticed.

[laughter]

And a – second observation I’d like to quickly make is, coming from Oklahoma I’ve spent 20 years in the Wildlife Services program, and I – I’m a little bit out of my element up here in the north, but it’s kind of refreshing. It’s probably the first workshop – workshop that I’ve done where I’m the only one in the room that doesn’t have an accent.

[laughter]

So, they’ve asked me to come out here and talk about guard animals, but I want to start out that presently I’m the Resource Management Specialist with U.S.D.A. Wildlife Services. With that, I –

[slide titled, Resource Management Specialist, with the position description below – assist Wildlife Services in broadcasting knowledge in the use of integrated wildlife damage management method and approaches]

– I basically assist Wildlife Services in broadening our knowledge our opportunities to work with stakeholders and our research component to broaden our knowledge in the use of integrated wildlife damage management. David spoke a lot about our lack thereof of integrated wildlife damage management here in the state of Wisconsin, and I hope to place some higher emphasis on that throughout my presentation.

[the Resource Management Specialist slide animates on the bullet point – Primarily focus on livestock protection/predation management methods]

Primarily I focus on livestock protection and a lot of that is with pre-predators and predator management.

[slide animates on the bullet point – Livestock Protection Dogs underneath the previous statement]

A big component of that is livestock protection dogs.

Now actually what I have said, I work a lot with integrated wildlife damage management. They’ve asked me to talk about guard animals, and so, I’ll focus a lot on that now. Now realize that livestock protection dogs are very –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– prevalent within the industry within the sheep society. It’s not unprecedented to see livestock protection dogs in cattle operations and other operations, but it is a little – a little bit different. But we see great success especially in the northwest and the western United States with the livestock protection dogs in – in areas of sheep production.

So, I want to start today by talking about, you know, livestock protection dogs –

[slide titled, Livestock Protection Dogs, featuring a photo of a dog in a pasture protecting a herd of sheep]

– a little bit of history –

[new slide with the bullet point – In the late 1970s, a resurgence in the use of Livestock Dog for sheep protection began]

– on livestock protection dogs. In the late 1970s, a lot of it was emphasized through the sheep industry and our actual research component to where we saw resurgence in the use of livestock protection dogs for primarily sheep protection.

[slide animates on the words Result Of:]

That was primarily the result of three things: The first thing being –

[slide animates on the statement – Federal restrictions on the use of predacides – under Result of]

– Federal restrictions placed on the use of predacides back during the Nixon administration. There was a big study and a big push, and we lost our use of – of some of our primary predacides, primarily that of sodium cyanide using an M44 device, and also with sodium fluoroacetate which you might know from Livestock Protection Collar. So, you know, with this loss it – it put a greater emphasis on coming up with other solutions to predator management.

[slide animates on the following statement under the previous statement under Result of – Inability of existing techniques to provide adequate relief from predation]

The second thing was the inability of existing techniques to offer, you know, adequate relief. You know, we still saw a lot of, you know, increasing predation in a lot of areas, predominately coyote depredation in livestock.

[slide animates on a new statement below the previous statement under Result of – Desire by some to use non-lethal approach]

The third thing was desire by some, and you see it even more and more today –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– and that’s a push to use more and more non-lethal technologies.

Now, you know, it’s not a new thing, historically worldwide livestock protection dogs have been used ever since man, you know, brought them into domestication –

[slide titled, Livestock Protection Dogs (LPDs), with the bullet point – LPDs have been used around the world for centuries. Since the 1980s, their use in the United States has increased as more producers are becoming interested in using a wider variety of methods]

– and they’ve been used throughout the world. But it wasn’t until this time in the late 70s and the early 80s that they actually became more and more popular in the United States.

[the slide animates on the statement – While LPDs are most commonly used to protect sheep, they are also helpful in protecting other livestock from predators]

They’re most commonly used to protect sheep, like I said, but they’re also help – helpful in protecting other species of livestock. We’re seeing more and more in western Wyoming, around the Green River Valley, the implementation of dogs in grizzly bear and wolf country, and – and not only sheep, but also cattle operations. And so, like I said, it’s not unprecedented however it’s – its not, you know, one that you’d see as widespread – as widespread use that you would see in sheep production.

[the slide animates on the following statement – LPDs are working dogs that stay with or near livestock most of the time, with the purpose of aggressively repelling predators]

They’re working dogs that stay with or near livestock most of the time, and they aggressively repel those predators who, you know, actually try to –

[Michael. Marlow, on-camera]

– provide, you know, try to confront the livestock. And this is where I guess it’s a little bit different in the sense of – of cattle is in that sense that sheep are flocking animals, whereas cattle typically graze over a – a – a wider landscape, you know, the herds are scattered and so therefore, you know, the – the way – the ability – of the dog is somewhat handicapped. Especially in the western United States where you may be, you know, grazing on operations that, you know, may, you know, include 30,000 or more acres. I understand through some of the presentations today, not necessarily a typical but an average size ranch here may, you know, consist of a couple of sections of land up-upwards of 12 hundred acres. And so, I can see, you know, there’s some relevance to how a dog operates that they could actually have some – a positive influence here in this – this type of – of a production zone.

They’re an important component of managing livestock –

[slide with the statement – Livestock protection dogs are an important component of managing predation on both small-farm flocks, and on large landscapes, including U.S. Forest Service (USFS), and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) grazing allotments]

– not only on the large landscapes like I said in the west, but also smaller, smaller landscapes. Like I say, we use them in the west on huge, huge vast amounts of land including the Bureau of Land Management and U.S. Forest Service grazing allotments.

[new slide titled, Producer costs to implement predator control methods (U.S.), featuring a bar graph with the various protection devices (Shed Lambing, Fencing, Trapping/Capture Device, Livestock Protection Dogs, Call/Shoot, and Other) on the x-axis and dollar amounts in $2,000 dollar increments on the y-axis, and showing that Livestock Protection Dogs have very low producer costs]

When you think about livestock protection dogs and how they compare to other traditional non-lethal types of preventative methods, I’m going to show you on these next two graphs exactly what – how they, you know, kind of gauge up. The fourth area there, if you have any difficulty seeing that is actually the cost to implement livestock protection dogs. This came from the study through the American Sheep Industry from 2009 data that was published 2010. As you can see compared to some of the more traditional methods of – of livestock protection such as shed lambing, where you’re actually bringing your – your ewes in ’til they’re born, to actually lamb, or actual fencing, could be predator-proof fencing or electrical fencing. Comparatively, livestock – the cost to implement livestock protection dogs is relatively low.

I’ve got a couple other methods there cull/shooting which obviously not an option here in a – in a strictly non-lethal capacity state, and also other methods which would include arrow hunting some other non-traditional type methods. And so, when you see the relative cost for implementing livestock protection dogs is low –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– and when you compare that to what the producers actually see as a relative return, how happy are they with the actual implementation of these methods?

[slide titled, Cost and Effect of Predation Prevention Measures (U.S.), featuring another bar graph again with the types of devices (Shed Lambing, Fencing, Trapping/Capture Devices, Livestock Protection Dogs, Call/Shoot) on the x-axis and the dollar amount in $2,000 increments on the y-axis and four different bars – Cost to implement, Very Effective, Somewhat Effective and Not Effective – Livestock Protections Dogs are very low cost and very effective]

You see that the livestock protection dog almost equals that of shed lambing. You know, when you have shed lambing, you’ve totally excluded access for the predator to get to the – to the offspring, so therefore you’re going to eliminate, if not completely, you know – youre – you’re going to reduce if not completely eliminate depredation on those – those lambs.

And so, but the return, that bang for your buck I guess you could say, is very high, so, you know, they – they are very well perceived, well received within the sheep industry.

[new slide titled, Livestock Protection Dogs, with the start of a bulleted list labelled Pros]

With that, well – well – I want to take a look at some pros and then I want to talk about some cons. I want to talk about how we can maybe, you know, adapt this for, you know, how it would apply for – for a state such as yours here in Wisconsin, maybe Minnesota, and some of the Great Lakes regions.

[the slide animates on the bullet point under Pros – LPDs can guard a variety of livestock]

Livestock protection dogs as I’ve said can guard a variety of – of livestock. They’re known to, you know, protect sheep, cattle –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– people use them on poultry operations, wildlife operations, you know, so they do have an opportunity to have some diverse use.

They’re typically able to analyze threats. This is very important. I’m going to talk about a little bit later, but dogs for the most part are very intelligent and so, you know, they are going to be able to perceive between a- an active threat and maybe just a situation that’s just not typically, you know, normal, where they’re not going to be vicious or, you know, potentially cause harm in a situation where other, you know, types of animals could potentially react in a – in a more negative way. And so, they are intelligent. They are able to analyze when it’s an actual threat of predation versus just some, you know, unique situation.

One thing that, you know, makes it beneficial is livestock protection dogs are able to bond –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Pro slide, now with two new bullet points added – LPDs are typically able to analyze threats, and LPDs bond to the livestock they are protecting]

– to the livestock that they’re protecting. You typically do this in the sheep industry by actually introducing those dogs to young lambs and an ewe early on. And they – you know, a lot of people think that they – that these dogs actually think theyre – they’re sheep. And they don’t think they’re sheep. I mean, it’s just the fact that they’re comfortable around the sheep, and they enjoy being around them and so they’re going to protect –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– these sheep. And so, that may be a difficult facet in trying to actually bond these to cattle. But, you know, one thing I encourage is for people to be innovative, and regardless, if it’s sheep industry, or cattle industry, or poultry industry, dogs are a great investment. It’s going to take a lot of, you know, time and energy spent to make a – a proper livestock protection, you know, guardian. And so, it’s not something – it is innate within dogs to – to protect in a way but the – the fact of the matter is is there’s a lot of effort, and – and time, and responsibility that producer has to devote to this success. And so, bonding that to cattle may be a little bit more challenging, but it’s something that, you know, like I say we are looking at, other producers are trying it. And so, that – that’s part of the important components of how livestock protection dogs accomplish, you know, what our goals are.

They may alert producers to potential threats. You know, dogs are vocal; they bark. So, in the west when you have dogs that may be, you know, 100’s of miles, or not 100’s of miles but 10’s of miles away from human presence, you know, every night or every day, this may not be as big a deal but here on smaller landscapes, you know, if you’re near your pastures and dogs are, you know, carrying on and barking it could alert you to the fact that something’s going on, and maybe allow you to have a response to the situation. So, that’s an important component, a positive component of livestock protection dogs.

They –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Pros, slide, now with two more bullet points – LPDs may alert the producer to potential threats, and LPDs may allow for greater pasture use and grazing]

– may allow for greater pasture use and grazing. David, you know, commented about some of these pastures where you had to pull off, you know, cattle or livestock completely. And so, dogs may, because of – from – from their territorial nature, allow for, you know –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– these pastures that may have been historically vulnerable to predation. And so, you know, that’s one thing – I – I – I – I’ll, you know, throw out this caution. Is – I think it was Mr. Link here mentioned pack size as many as 20 or, you know, 25 animals, and that’s what we’re seeing in the, you know, Rocky Mountain region now and we’re actually doing a study and the National Wildlife Research Center is conducting a study because what we’re seeing is we’re actually seeing a mortality in – in livestock protection dogs in these areas that have large – these large, you know, packs of wolves.

When you’re talking about a wolf in the Great – Great Lakes region, I’m not for sure what the average weights are but, you know, some of our wolves in the northern territories, Rocky Mountain territories, you know, easily exceed over, you know, 100, 120 pounds. And so, when you have 20 or 25 animals maybe combating or, you know, trying to, you know, come in on livestock and they’re only being defended by six or se-seven dogs you know, do the math. And so, one thing that, you know, ethically we don’t necessarily encourage the use of dogs where we’re seeing the impacts of mortality to the dogs, but we’re actually doing research to try and identify breeds of dogs that historically were used in Europe presently against wolves and – and bears in those countries. And so, we’re looking at more athletic, a larger, more vicious dog, canine vicious. But these dogs had to meet certain criteria, and one of those criteria were – was to be human tolerant. And so, that study is actively going on now and I’ll talk to you a little bit more about that toward the end of my presentation.

L.P.D.s provide –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Pro slide, now with a new bullet point – LPDs provide long term protection, as predators do not become accustomed or habituated to the dogs]

– long-term protection as predators do not become accustomed or habituated. And so, David talked about how these wolves had become habituated to all these non-lethal technologies. And so, we don’t see that with dogs –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– you know, they don’t habituate. You know, there’s a constant, I guess, a vigilance that, you know, these dogs, you know, have – the capability they have to not allow these predators to habituate to their presence. And so, thats a – that’s a positive attribute.

However, you know, every rose has it’s thorn and there are definitely disadvantages with livestock protection dogs, I’ll touch a little upon that now.

They may kill your livestock –

[slide titled, Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons, with the bullet – LPDs may kill the livestock they are protecting]

– you know, so that’s not – if they’re out there to protect your livestock and they’re killing your livestock, you know, that’s not obviously a – a – an advantage. But what – typically you see that in the young dogs that are maybe –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– too playful with a calf, or a lamb and – and they actually kill. Some of this actually evolves from a lack of a producer responsibility. You know, they put their cattle out on pasture, they act – ask for the dog just to provide for himself, and so, a hungry dog is going to do what it takes to, you know, survive and so, some of this actually is self-imposed by the producer themselves. Something to be aware of.

They may harass and kill non-target wildlife. You know, if you were a cattleman but you also love deer hunting and you know these dogs potentially chase your deer away it may not be something that’s, you know, a positive attribute towards your operation. We don’t see that much – so much with the people we talk to in the east, where we see it is is some of our adversarial groups who are concerned with – with these dogs, you know, altering grizzly bear migration patterns or, you know, actually, you know, disrupting habitat corridors where other wildlife are actually, you know, naturally moving. And so, we get a lot of, you know, I guess, negative response from the use the livestock protection dogs on public lands as a result of this capability. So, something to be aware of.

Third is, they may –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons slide, now with two new bullet points added – LPDs may harass and kill non-target wildlife, and LPDs may wander unless adequately fenced]

– wander unless adequately fenced. And that can be a big, big problem, especially in small – smaller landscapes. If you have a – a neighbor that raises Labrador Retrievers, and –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– his bitch is going into heat, and your livestock protection dog is not protecting your cattle, and he’s over there trying to service those dogs on that Labrador ranch, he’s going to have problems.

[laughter]

So, you know, that’s something to be aware of. You know, there are certain technologies being developed. Some are better than others that are in development now: virtual fencing, to where – some – some of the earliest ones were – were actually buried electrical cables where a collar would actually [slaps his hands together five times] keep that dog from crossing. Now you’re getting more – technology allows for satellite usage and – and telemetry-type –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons slide with the three bullet points previously discussed]

– applications. But, cert-certainly something to be a-aware of. These dogs, you know, especially in boredom, will – will wander, but in – in areas where urban landscapes or these rural landscapes where neighbors may have dogs and others may have dogs –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– wandering would be a – definitely a negative, you know, aspect. [clears his throat]

They may be aggressive to strangers. We’ve done a lot to try to educate the public. I’ll talk about that in a little bit more detail later. But if you have neighbors that have, you know, hunting dogs or, you know, young children that frequently pass by your place, it’s certainly something to be aware of. They may be aggressive to strangers. We – we do have mechanisms that we try to help people identify cert-certain types of dogs and certain types of breeds for certain types of situations, and – and the aggression toward humans is – is one of these attributes that some dogs may possess and others don’t. So, certainly something – something to consider.

LPDs may not –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons, slide now featuring two more bullets added to the list – LPDs may be aggressive to strangers, and LPDs may not tolerate herding or other farm dogs]

– tolerate herding or other farm dogs. So, if you’re using spaniels or heelers or kelpies or whatever it may be to periodically herd your cattle, you’d have to take that into consideration. If you have livestock –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– protection dogs out on the pasture and they see a – a dog chasing these – these calves or sheep or whatever it may be, it could be a train wreck. And so, you need make that – you make that – you know, yourself aware of that. It’s not always compatible. So, it’s certainly something to consider.

They – they need time and guidance to mature properly.

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons slide now with a new bullet point – LPDs need time and guidance to mature properly]

So, they take time. And – and they take guidance. And that guidance is an investment from you as a producer. And so, you know, a dog sometimes, you know, we recognize doesn’t reach this maturity where he’s able to actually defend against –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– you know, these adversarial predators maybe until they’re two or three years old. But, with that, you know, we typically see seven or eight good years following that, you know, with the application of livestock protection dogs. So, it’s something to realize that it’s not something that’s going to, you know, happen overnight. It is a time-consumptive, you know, type – type process.

They’ll bark, especially at night. That’s – thats a good thing –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons slide, now with the new bullet point – LPDs will bark, especially at night]

– but it could be a negative thing. Like I say, I’m talking about this – this interface with your neighbors. And so, if you have neighbors that, you know, don’t appreciate a dog barking when – every time a raccoon or a possum or a fox or a coyote, you know, comes near, then that – that –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– could potentially be something that, you know, you’d want to consider. You know, having predators and – and angry neighbors, you know, you may rather prefer to have angry neighbors and keep the predators away. But, you know, it’s something definitely to – to take into consideration.

Not so much a big deal here in the East as it is in the West, but youve got to realize that using dogs sometimes –

[return to the Livestock Protection Dogs – Cons slide, now with a new bullet point – LPDs cannot be used in conjunction with most other predator control methods (traps, snares, poisons)]

– eliminates the capability of using of other predator protection mechanisms. In the West we have the, I guess, the pleasure of being able to use certain predacides, M44s, in certain instances to reduce conflicts with predators. However, that’s not necessarily compatible when you’re using dogs because these are, you know, poisons that are – dogs and canines in general –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– are susceptible to. I don’t think it’s a tool that’s necessary to use here in Wisconsin. But traps and snares also you must take into consideration. If you have traps on the landscape or snares, these dogs are vulnerable to those as well. We actually, you know, have research where we’ve actually been able to train and avoid the poisons from the application of – through M44 devices, but, you know, just curiosity or whatnot around a trap set or snare set could potentially be harmful to that, you know, investment that that you made in the livestock protection dog. So, it’s certainly – certainly something to consider. [clears his throat]

You know, I want to talk a little bit about protecting this resource.

[slide titled, Protecting the Resource]

In Colorado, the American Sheep Industry Association claims – without the livestock protection dog for the protection of sheep, they’d be totally out of business. And so, that’s a tool that they heavily rely upon if not totally dependent on. And so, we’ve seen a lot of situations where it necessitates a – a –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– group effort to actually protect this livestock protection dog, protect this valuable resource in – in – in, you know, livestock protection. And a way – one way we’ve banded together to accomplish this is through education.

[slide featuring a photo of a one-sheet fact sheet about Livestock Protection Dogs published by the U.S.D.A. Wildlife Services]

As a service, Wildlife Services, we – we produce several pieces of written literature in the form of fact sheets that are available on our website. Historically –

[slide featuring two photos, one of a U.S.D.A. publication titled, Livestock Guarding Dogs – Protecting Sheep from Predators, and the second a photo of a cover of a book titled, Livestock Protection Dogs – Selection, Care and Training by Orysia Dawydiak and David Sims]

– weve been able to provide guide – guidance through publications such as the “Livestock Guarding Dogs: Protecting Sheep from Predators” publication, but also there’s a plethora – plethora of information available on the Internet that would help guide a producer on actually properly, you know, preparing and utilizing these dogs in – in the application of livestock protection. And so, you know, educating the producer is very, very –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– important to help protect this resource. Comes along with not only being knowledgeable, but you have responsibilities.

[slide titled, Protecting the Resource – Producer Responsibility]

And we see this more and more –

[new slide featuring a photo of two hikers on a trail in the West with mountains in the distance and the statement – Increasingly, more and more people are seeking to use public lands for a variety of purposes. This use includes hiking, biking, horseback riding, etc., in some areas historically used for livestock grazing. Unfortunately, harmonious co-existence is threatened by increased LPD/human conflict]

– in the West. Increasingly, we’re seeing more and more people using public lands for hiking, biking, horseback riding, and just outdoor, you know, use in general. And with that we’ve seen an increase in conflicts with livestock protection dogs on public lands. And so, we don’t necessarily see, you know, that except for those people who – who for – for, you know –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– refuse to realize that their little, you know, poodle off-leash running around on a forest trail running into a pack of sheep is – is a good thing. Because it’s not. And these dogs, like I say, they’re able to analyze threats, but when this dog runs into sheep, it’s a potential train wreck. And we’ve had several instances where that’s become an issue. We – we’re seeing more and more conflicts with livestock protection dogs –

[slide featuring a photo of two livestock protection dogs guarding a flock of sheep in a field along with the statement – Additionally, increasing urbanization has led to a number of conflicts between livestock protection dogs and neighbors in historically rural areas]

– around, you know, urban and in rural areas where – that were traditionally used for farming, but they’re now being used for, what we call, little ranchettes in the West. And so, we’re seeing more and more conflicts between neighbors with livestock protection dogs.

[new slide featuring a screenshot of a L.A. Times article titled, Ranching, recreation collide in the great outdoors]

And so, producer responsibility goes a big way. And so, when you think about Well, that can’t be THAT big a deal, when the “Los Angeles Times” runs an article such as this, “Ranching, recreation collide in the great outdoors”, it IS a big deal. I mean, it’s something that we recognize nationally as a problem. And what this particular article stemmed from was an incident in about 1990 – no, excuse me – 2008, Eagle, Colorado, where a –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– mountain biker was in – in a race, and she got sep-separated from the group of people. And so, the Forest Service had contacted the producer that there was a race going to be coming through his allotment. And so, when the, you know, group of riders came through a few hours later, he released his dogs. Well, unbeknownst to the rest of the riders and the org-organizers, there was a lady who had fallen way behind. And she actually rode into a band of sheep, and with that came some horrible consequences. She was attacked by these dogs and viciously attacked. And didn’t die but had upwards of 80 or 90 stitches, I understand. But it set into motion a huge backlash from the public and especially those who were looking for ways to get people off of public lands.

You know, they not – they might not have a problem with the dogs, but they use this as a tool because they’re against public grazing, they’re against, you know, agricultural use on public land, and trust me, it had a huge fallout.

And so, you know, when I talk about producer responsibility, I’m talking about more, you know, along the lines of this as well.

[slide titled, Fierce sheepdogs alarming tourists in SW Colorado, featuring a photo of two sheepdogs attacking one another and the copy of a newspaper article about the headline]

We have these dogs that are on public lands. And – and – and this is an article in southwest Colorado where the sheep industry is so dependent upon these animals, yet you see headlines such as this, that “Fierce sheepdogs alarming tourists in SW Colorado.” And – and – and basically, it goes back to people who are producers and not using those dogs that have been properly socialized or properly, you know, trained to actually be out and around the public. You know, they – they’ve taken these dogs and they’ve basically just turned them loose. Sometimes they’re free breeding. They’ve not been acclimated to human presence, not been socialized properly. And so –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– with that comes some huge, huge conflicts.

And so, the American Sheep Ministry has been pro-active. We as an agency have tried to help them be pro-active. And we’ve come up with some livestock protection dog best management practices. And what these have done is they’ve allowed –

[slide titled, What are BMPs, with the following statement – Recommendations to enhance the professional qualifications and judgement of livestock producers utilizing LPS – followed by the following bulleted list – optimizes the use of LPDs; minimizes conflicts]

– for us to, you know, help optimize the use of LPDs and minimize these conflicts. And so, it’s not just the producers. A lot of the problems, you know, can be attributed to the lack – lack of knowledge or lack – lack of a better word, ignorance in the general public on how they should react to, you know, sheep and sheepdogs on – on –

[new slide featuring a photo of an informational sign that warns people about the use of sheepdogs on public lands featuring a photo of two sheepdogs in front of a sheep herd on the top of the sign and then the words – ATTENTION Sheep Grazing in this Area – Livestock Protection Dogs in Use – followed by the Dos and Donts]

– public lands.

And so, we’ve – weve worked with the sheep industry and the Forest Service and BLM to produce these signs that we’ve –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera, holding up one of the signs]

– weve actually implemented throughout public lands, trailheads, trails, parking spots all along these national forest landscapes to where we can educate the public on the dos and don’ts around these dogs. You know, if you see sheep, don’t approach them, avoid them. Keep your dog on a leash. If you are confronted, this is what you should do. And so, it’s gone a long ways, we’ve – weve evidently, you know, deterred some of the conflict. But a – and we’ve made these available initially – we’ve exhausted our resource twice on – on the production of these along with a complimentary brochure. But we’re in development now. We’re going to produce this on more of a heavy-duty, rubberized, vinylized-type plastic adhesive to where producers can purchase those in bulks of ten and apply them to a metal backing and – and hopefully get those out, not only on public lands but on private lands as well.

When this was initially developed, it was developed for public land use. We saw a great response, and we actually wrote it to actually apply to private lands. It’s also available in Spanish. Especially we see a lot of that need in the – in the Western United States. And so, there’s a lot of educational components involved in this, as I mentioned. A complimentary brochure –

[slide featuring a photo of the cover of the complimentary brochure with the same photo as on the sign and titled, Livestock Protection Dogs on Private Lands – Protecting Sheep From Predators]

– went along with this. You can find this in a lot of our different Forest Service visitor’s centers, trailheads, and –

[new slide featuring a photo of the inside of the brochure with the headlines – Why Do Farmers Use Livestock Protection Dogs?, Livestock Protection Dogs on Patrol, and Reducing Conflicts]

– throughout the West where the public, you know, can use this resource –

[new slide titled, Llamas, featuring a photo of a llama in a field in front of a herd of sheep]

– to educate themselves.

Moving on a little bit. You know, this is a talk about, you know, guard animals, not just livestock protection dogs. And so, a lot of – we get a lot of –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– questions about the use of llamas. You know, llamas do have attributes that some dogs don’t possess that are beneficial. They also have some negatives, and I want to talk a little bit about both of those.

For instance, they possess some behavioral and physical –

[another slide titled, Llamas, featuring another photo of a llama in a field guarding a flock of sheep and the statement – Possess behavioral and physical characteristics that make them favorable livestock protectors]

– characteristics that make them favorable to livestock protectors. And some of these attributes are –

[slide animates on the start of a bulleted list, the first being – llamas are highly sociable]

– they’re highly sociable. And so, if you got a llama or two out in the pasture, they want to be around the other livestock. You know, maybe want to be around horses, they may want to be around sheep, they may want to be around cattle. Whatever it is. I mean, it’s not like theyve bonded. They do bond in a way, but not like dogs necessarily. But they –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– they’re sociable animals. They want to be around other animals. And so, you – you might – if you’re not familiar with – with llamas you might think: Hmm, that’s odd. I mean, how would they be protective of – of my livestock? Well, they’re aggressive against canines [rubs his microphone], naturally innate ability or dis-dislike of, you know, coyotes, foxes, wolves, dogs, whatever it may be. And just innately they have a – a strong, aggressive disposition toward these animals. So that’s where it comes as a protective mechanism.

And realize –

[return to the Llamas slide now with two new points added to the bulleted list – Llamas are aggressive against canines, and Llamas possess a height advantage that gives them visibility that other livestock may lack]

– they also are much taller than sheep. They’re much taller than cattle. And so, they can actually see and maybe perceive a threat quicker and – and sooner than, you know, your livestock may be able to see and react to it. So, that’s an advantage that they possess.

[the Llamas slide animates on a new bullet point – Unlike LPDs, llamas do not actively guard indirect]

Unlike dogs, though, they don’t actively guard your sheep.

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

Dogs will actually try to maybe flock and – and, you know, get around the sheep, and they’re actually protecting the sheep. It’s an indirect response from the llamas – they’re protecting themselves. And indirectly, your sheep or cattle or horses or poultry may benefit from that. So, they’re not quite bonding like a dog would, but you do actually, you know, benefit from that indirect type of protection.

Like I said, there’s pros and there’s cons with most every tool.

[new slide titled, Llamas – Pros, and featuring a bulleted list – Llamas are naturally social animals – Bond fairly quickly]

Llamas are naturally social; they bond fairly quickly, so that’s – thats a positive.

[slide animates on the next Pro bullet point – Llamas are naturally aggressive to foxes, coyotes, and dogs]

They’re naturally aggressive to foxes, coyotes, dogs, other canine species, wolves potentially.

[slide animates on the next Pro bullet point – Llamas have similar maintenance, shelter, and feeding needs as sheep and goats – graze the same pasture]

They have similar maintenance, shelter, and feeding needs as sheep and goats. They graze the same pastures, so I assume they’re going to graze the same type of pastures as cattle. So, that would be a positive.

[slide animates on the next Pro bullet point – Llamas generally have a calm temperament toward humans]

They generally have a calm temperament toward humans, so you’re not going to have to worry about getting, you know, necessarily bitten. You might get chased or intimidated a bit, but for the most part they’re pretty calm, you know, reasonable animals.

[slide animates on the next Pro bullet point – Llamas are long lived – 20-25 years]

They’re long-lived, 20-25 years. Actually, outlive the life expectancy of a dog. So, you know, your initial investment could be, you know, realized pretty quick and have, you know, long – long-term impacts to your protection of livestock.

[slide animates on the next Pro bullet point – Llamas do not roam, dig, or bark]

They don’t roam, they don’t dig, and they don’t bark. So, that’s a negative that dogs sometimes possess and llamas don’t have.

[new slide tilted, Llamas – Cons, and the start of another bulleted list]

There are cons with the llamas. Several of these would be relevant to your situation here in – in Wisconsin.

[slide animates on the first Con bullet point – Llamas are also vulnerable to being preyed upon by coyotes and dogs – difficulty in defending against multiple animals]

They’re vulnerable to being preyed upon by coyotes and dogs, so Id suspect they’re being, you know, theyd be vulnerable to being preyed upon by wolves as well. So, that’s something to be recognized. There’s difficulty in defending against multiple animals. And you typically don’t think about one wolf, you think about a pack of wolves. And so, you know –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– that’s something to recognize. It could potentially work, but then again it may have, you know, negative consequences to the llama and your investment there. They’re less successful in pastures of dense vegetation or on large, open grasslands. I don’t think that large open grasslands would applicable here, but I suspect driving on the highways – I saw the map that David showed – wolves are moving more and more in these, you know, pasture and – and cropland type situations, but some of your forests are very dense. So, this may be a handicap. It’s maybe something that’s not suitable for certain landscapes here in Wisconsin, but then again, you know, it may be something worth investigating.

[return to the Llamas – Cons slide now with two new bullet points – Llamas are less successful in pastures with dense vegetation or on large open rangeland, and Llamas (some) may have difficulty adjusting to living without other llamas]

Llamas may have difficulty adjusting to living alone. A lot of times they’re – theyre lonely, but if they bond and – and socialize well with your animals that may be not – may not be a problem. But you might think, Well, lets – let’s just get multiple llamas. But then you run into the problem that if you have multiple llamas, a lot of times –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– the llamas won’t hang out together. And they won’t actually intermingle with your livestock. So, that’s something you want to consider. They cant – usually cannot be utilized with –

[return to the Llamas – Cons slide with the new bullet point – Llamas generally cannot be utilized with livestock protection dogs or herding dogs]

– livestock protection dogs. Logically, obviously, if they don’t like dogs, they’re not going to be able to work in tandem with these dogs. Now I’m not saying it wouldn’t be something worth testing to see if you could actually, you know, break that, I guess, you know, or actually create a bond, but then, you know, if you get the llama used to dogs then he might not be as big a – a threat or as aggressive towards those dogs you’re trying to protect against. So, you know, not always compatible with other applications of dogs.

[new slide titled, Donkeys, featuring a photo of a donkey standing in a field amongst a herd of sheep]

Donkeys. You see more and more literature. You see more and more evidence of donkeys being used in cattle applications.

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

Donkeys are, indeed, you know, another animal to consider. They possess characteristics that make them favorable –

[another slide titled, Donkeys, featuring another photo of a donkey amongst a herd of sheep and the statement – Possess behavioral characteristics that make them favorable livestock protectors]

– livestock protectors, much like the llamas.

[slide animates on the bullet point – Donkeys are highly territorial]

They’re highly territorial. And so, if you have, you know, a 200-acre pasture and he lays that down and claims that as his territory, that’s a good thing. And so, you think Well, he – he’s territorial of what? Other donkeys? Well, no, he’s actually territorial just –

[slide animates on the new bullet point – Donkeys are strongly and instinctively aggressive toward canines]

– in general, and they instinctively do not like canines, and they are aggressive towards them. So, if he’s claimed as his territory and you have this potential for canine adversaries, then this could be a positive tool. It could be something that would be beneficial in your particular situation.

[slide animates on the next bullet point – Donkeys are an alert animal on pasture]

They’re an alert animal in pasture. You know, you see them a lot of times they are just standing there, but they’re actually very alert and very keen on being able to perceive, you know, potential threats. So, that’s –

[slide animates on the next bullet point – Not purposely protective – indirect protection of other livestock]

– thats a good thing. Much like llamas, as they’re not purposely, you know, protective of your livestock, it’s an indirect thing. You know, he’s looking out for –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– himself, but your livestock benefit indirectly. So – so, much like the llama, that’s – thats pretty much the – the same type of deal. Looking at some of the positive aspects beyond those I’ve mentioned –

[slide titled, Donkeys – Pros featuring a bulleted list, the first of which is – Donkeys typically bray loudly during times of perceived threats]

– they typically bray loudly during times of perceived threats. So, much as I mentioned that dogs are vocal and may alert you to the presence of – of predators or threats, same with the donkeys. You know, if you hear a donkey braying repetitively it could very well indicate, you know, you have a problem going on and you can respond to it.

[slide animates on a new Pro bullet point – Donkeys possess very good hearing and a wide field of vision]

Donkeys – donkeys possess – possess very good hearing and a wide field of vision. So, you know –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– maybe they may not stand as tall as the llamas, but they do actually, you know, have this attribute which allows them to be wary, aware of what’s going on around them. So, thats – that’s certainly a positive attribute.

They’re likely to stand their ground when challenged.

[return to the Donkeys – Pros slide with a new bullet point having been animated on – Donkeys are likely to stand their ground when challenged]

You know, they’re pretty hardheaded, pretty tough, you know. They’ll stomp a dog into paste and a coyote and whatnot. And so, I’m not saying he’s necessarily capable of fending off multiple predators, but he – he’s definitely a worthy opponent, you know. And so, that’s definitely something to take into consideration.

[slide animate on a new Pros bullet point – Donkeys are long lived – over 30 years]

As well as like the llamas, they are long-lived, upwards of 30 years. So, you know, relatively small investment for a long return. So, certainly a potential positive for you.

[slide animates on the next Pros bullet point – Donkeys have a calm temperament – pose little threat]

Pretty calm. They pose little threat. It’s recommended that, you know, people don’t have intact jacks. That typically a jenny –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– with maybe a foal is your best choice. You know, even then sometimes, you know, some people think that more is better, but no. You know, typically, same with the llamas, if you have more than one, males will typically – may – may fight or may, you know, team up and avoid your other livestock. However, a jenny with a foal is probably the most, you know, youd want to apply. And I’ve seen the numbers and depending on the size of pasture, but a – a jenny with a foal and a herd of 200 cattle is – is, you know, in Texas especially, is – is a – can be a – a good ratio.

So, not a huge monetary investment and relatively easy to – to take care of. Unlike dogs they don’t roam, dig, or bark, just like llamas. So, if you’re in an area where you have potential concerns with your dog wandering, donkeys may be a solution to that.

They are –

[return to the Donkeys – Pros slide now with two new bullet points – Unlike dogs, donkeys dont roam, dig, or bark, and Donkeys are compatible with trap and poison efforts]

– compatible, unlike dogs, with traps and other poison efforts. And so, not necessarily applicable here to you in Wisconsin with the predacides, but if you do have a mechanism and –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– I’m not saying towards wolves, but I’m sure you trap coyotes and foxes and whatnot periodically. So, the – the donkeys would be compatible with this type of damage technology.

There are cons as well with donkeys. They may only react if they are threatened.

[new slide titled, Donkeys – Cons and featuring a new bulleted list the first of which is – Donkeys (some) may only react if THEY are threatened]

Like I say with the llamas, you know, it’s an indirect protection, but if they feel threatened, they’re very, you know, very capable of maybe deterring that – that potential impact from predators trying to prey upon your livestock.

[slide animates on a new Cons bullet point – Donkeys cannot deal with multiple canine attackers]

They cannot deal with multiple canine attackers, typically. So, when you’re talking about 20 –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– 20 wolves in a pack and the way they actually approach livestock, sometimes that may not, you know, have good results. But definitely something to look at and consider.

They may bray a great deal. Just because, you know.

[laughter]

And so, they can drive you nuts and certainly drive your neighbors nuts. So, depending on your situation and where actually the proximity to this animal you have to yourself or your – your neighbors it’s certainly something to consider.

They may have little guarding –

[return to the Donkeys – Cons slide now with two new bullet points – Donkeys (some) may bray a great deal – just because, and Donkeys may have little guarding effect to widely scattered livestock, or in large pastures, rough terrain, or heavy brush]

– effect to widely scattered livestock, cattle. Or in large pastures – pastures, rough terrain, or heavy brush. And so, you know, each – every – each situation is different, but you never know until you try. And so, it’s certainly something to take into consideration, and maybe it may work in certain pastures but maybe not in others. But just because it doesn’t work here doesn’t mean it may not work there. So, certainly something to consider.

[slide animates on a new Cons bullet point – Donkeys may not accept herding dogs, LPDs or family pets]

They may accept herding dogs, or they may not. Same with the, you know, livestock protection dogs. So, if you rely –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– heavily on herding dogs or you have a, you know, prized very successful livestock protection dog, the addition of a donkey to this, you know, integrated approach may not be your best bet. So, it’s something to consider. [clears his throat]

Donkeys may harass other livestock. They can cause injuries. And so, if you have, you know, a donkey that’s actually shown to be aggressive to the other livestock, probably best to immediately get it out. It’s probably not going to change. You know, you have those that just don’t get along. And so, certainly consider that. It doesn’t mean that all donkeys are that way, but certain attitudes, just like us, we all act a little bit different. And they’re no different.

In wrapping this up, I – I usually mention this the first in my presentation, but I certainly always end with it. And that is that –

[slide with the statement – Must be recognized that no tool is 100 percent effective and there is no one size fits all]

– you – you must recognize that there is no tool that is 100 percent effective in the, you know, realm of livestock protection. David, you know, spoke heavily about it. You know, I talk about integrated wildlife –

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

– damage management, which is a combination of – of preventative methods, but also a combination of control methods. And so, there is no one tool. The gentleman back here next to me asked if I brought a silver bullet, you know. I wish we had one. We don’t. We probably never will. And so, it’s being innovative; it’s being creative; it’s trying new things; it’s trying new techniques. It’s trying, you know, just to identify what is your vulnerability – what is YOUR vulnerability and how can I adapt to overcome that and – and shore that vulnerability up.

And so, using these different tools. Livestock guard animals may be another, you know, component of that – that mix or that montage of – of tools. And so certainly, recognize that, you know, it’s going to be better if you integrate. In my travels, and in my presentations, I always talk about this integrated approach to –

[slide titled, Integrated approach to predator control, featuring an excerpt from a newspaper article from the Brownfield Agricultural News]

– predator control. And so, its – it’s something that I know it makes people angry and there’s a lot of, you know, “anti” sentiment toward these protective measures that go back and forth through the courts and all. And our adversarial groups suing us. And while our adversarial –

[new slide titled, The Wildlife Society States, and featuring the statement – Prevention or control of wildlife damage, which often includes removal of the animals responsible for the damage, is an essential and responsible part of wildlife management]

– groups like to claim that we can prevent livestock damage and predation damage to livestock in a non-lethal fashion is – is simply not true.

And our professional society that – that – we – we have a great relationship with, that represents all facets of wildlife management, wildlife damage management, and whatnot, the Wildlife Society – they actually recognize, and they – I quote: “Prevention or control of wildlife damage, which often includes the removal of the animals responsible for the damage, is an essential and responsible part of wildlife management. ” And that’s what it boils down to.

[Michael Marlow, on-camera]

It’s an integrated approach that’s going to require a combination of non-lethal methods, which are typically preventative methods, and those methods of control which are typically lethal. And in the end, I think that’s what’s most important. And so, with that, I’ll leave it up to any questions.

[applause]