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cc >> Welcome to University Place Presents. I'm Norman Gilliland. What we wear says a lot about the taste and the activities of our times, and the Wisconsin Historical Society has an impressive collection of dresses worn by Wisconsin women involved in politics and industry from the 1860s to the 1930s. As you can imagine, a fashionable look has changed a lot over those decades. Guiding us through about six decades or so of high Wisconsin fashion is Leslie Bellais. She is the curator of Costume and Textiles at the Wisconsin Historical Museum. Welcome to University Place Presents. >> Thank you. >> I hardly know where to begin. There's so much to look at here, and so many wonderful images. It was fascinating to discover in conversing before we when on camera that you were the curator of a fascinating exhibit some years ago all about the bustle. >> That's right. >> We'll be seeing some bustles, I think, between 1869 and 1930. >> Yes, you will. >> Maybe we should get into the collection just a little bit, and where these dresses came from. >> Almost all these dresses have been donated, usually by family members after the person who wore them passed away. That's how we get our collections, mainly. >> Some of these have obviously been in the collection for a long time, because they go back more than a hundred, 150 years, in some cases. >> Yes, we started collecting dresses probably around 1910. We really took off though probably in the 20s and 30s. >> Do you ever do replicas of these dresses? >> Yes, we do! Actually my predecessor and I both did a Patterns of History line where we took some of these dresses and turned them into patterns where you can make them into your own cloths. Every time a pattern came out I had one of these dresses made for me. It's kind of fun. >> Quite the fun at parties. >> I have quite the wardrobe, is what I have. >> And you're also an expert on what was worn underneath these dresses, which I think is something you have to get into a little bit as the thing that gives them their shape. >> Yeah, I got very interested in Victorian underwear and I do talks on it called Victorian Secrets. But I also did my thesis, my masters thesis-- I went back to school recently and got a second masters. My dissertation was called Bringing Up the Rear; The History and Significance of Late Nineteenth Century Bustles. So I feel like I know that stuff pretty well. >> And how responsible for the bustle fashion was the painter, Degas? >> Degas, the reason you bring up Degas is because he's known for doing a series of illustrations, some paintings, called "Apres le Bain," After the Bath. Which merely show women stepping in and out of a bathtub, usually from the back. What we see is what is considered the ideal figure, which is very luscious through the rump. It sort of, basically, the bustle is taking what is the titillating part of the anatomy and bringing attention to it. That titillating part changes over time. It's changed in our lifetimes. The most recent one I think has been the midriff, for example, where women where showing of their bellybuttons for awhile. >> Right, right. >> But in the 1870s and 1880s it was the bottom. >> Very few belly buttons got shown back in 1870s. >> No belly buttons got shown at all. >> Now, this collection that we're going to be looking at which goes from, what, 1869 to about 1932. >> Well, we added a few from the 50s. >> The 1850s? >> The 1850s. >> And why pick those dates? Is there something that happens in the 50s that doesn't happen before that? >> I think the reason I mainly focused on this era is in the 1850 you start having men who have enough money to have wives and daughters who can dress well. And also, in our collection at this time of the 1850s you start being able to put specific women who we know are Wisconsinites, living in Wisconsin, wearing these cloths. A lot of our older cloth we know traveled to Wisconsin, but we don't necessarily know that that woman wore them in Wisconsin. >> Are you ready to look at some dresses? >> Yes. >> Okay, here we go. >> Should I start with the first one? >> Let's start at the beginning. >> I'm starting with our prize piece, the jewel in the crown of our collection. This is a gown worn by Mrs. Lucius Fairchild, Frances Bull Fairchild. >> The governor's wife. >> The governor's wife. He was actually a Civil War general. He lost his arm in the Civil War at Gettysburg, and then went on to become governor of Wisconsin from '66 to '72. Then he left the United States to become a diplomat, first in England and then in Paris, France, then Madrid, Spain. >> This dress, I think, was for a function in Madrid. >> Yes, it was. So he was there in 1880. His wife came over with their three daughters and they found out he was moving to Madrid. He's be presented to the king and queen of Spain. She needed a court dress. A court dress is a very specific type of dress. In this era it meant that it had to have a very long train. The train on this dress is nine feet long from the waist. She can't wear it for anything else. This is not a dancing dress, or anything. Don't wear it to parties. This is for wearing to court. Charles Frederick Worth made it, or his House of Worth made it. He was the leading fashion designer in the nineteenth century. He basically set the styles for what women were going to wear from about 1860 through his death in 1896. This is our only Worth gown. It's just amazing. It's purple velvet and lavender satin. >> With these trains were there a lot of incidents of-- >> If there were, they weren't reported. Here's a picture of her actually in the gown in Madrid. She didn't get to go with her husband right away because her daughter, Carol, got sick. The daughter was studying in Switzerland and got typhus. But she showed up later on in his stay there and was able to actually wear her dress at court for the king and queen. We have his diaries so we know things like, the three times that they were presented to the court. >> Oh, would she be able to wear this each time? >> I'm not sure. She wore it at least once. We're not sure which time of those three that she wore it. We also know, we have his financial records, so we know how much he paid for it. >> Which was? >> He paid 1,900 franks, which turned out to be $365, American, in 1880. That turns out to be about $7,500 in today's money. >> For, maybe, three wears. >> Maybe three wears, yeah. >> Now you can talk about deposable income. >> Well, when you're being presented in court and you have a Worth gown, that's what your do. >> Now this one that we're seeing here, this would have to have a hoop, right? >> This is a hoop dress. It's from 1855. It's actually a wedding dress. You may have heard of the bank M&I, Marshall and Ilsley bank? >> Yes, indeed. >> This is Mrs. Marshall's wedding dress. She got married to Samuel Marshall in 1855. It's kind of nice that it was worn with a hoop. It's a circular hoop, so she's standing in the middle and she has the big, bell sleeves with it, which is the fashion in the 1850s. She also has a separate cape, so she could wear this later on during her bridal year as a best dress for balls. Because if you take off the cape, which I think is the next picture, she's all ready for a ball. >> How high up would the hoop go? To just the hem? It actually has to shape the entire dress, doesn't it. >> It's a bell shape. What's invented in 1855, '56 is the skeleton hoop which is just wires, and it's concentric circles of wires. It starts right at your hips and it goes all the way down to your hem. >> But it's not stitched into the dress, it's separate. >> No, it's a separate garment. >> So you can actually wear it with any-- >> With lots of your dresses. >> One hoop, lots of dresses. >> Yes, like this dress, what we're looking at here. This is from 1858, '57, '58. It's the same style. It's a hoop dress with the woman standing in the center. She has bell sleeves. This was worn by Hannah Billingshurst. We got it as a inaugural dress, is what it said. It's taken me a lot of time to figure out which inauguration. We think that he was a US Representative from Wisconsin to the United States, so people first thought that is was for Buchanan's-- >> In '57. >> In '57, that's right. However, I have found letters written from him to her back in Wisconsin during the inauguration, and she was eight months pregnant at that time. So I do not think it was worn for Buchanan's. I do think it was worn the next year in '58 for the gubernatorial inauguration. He was Republican. The governor at that time was Republican. So it would have been appropriate for him and his wife to attend. >> Is this a different view of the same dress? >> No, this is a different dress. This is a plaid dress, and it's 1869. What's happened is, we have flattened out the front and the hoop is mainly at the back. This is an oval hoop, or an elliptical hoop, and the woman stands in the front instead of in the circular hoop with the woman standing in the middle. That's what we've been seeing up until this point. This is actually a trousseau dress. It was worn by Mrs. Breese Stevens. >> We'll see an image of her in a minute. >> Yes, we will. If you live in Madison you may have gone past the Breese Stevens soccer field. >> Yes, on East Wash. >> He was a lawyer. He married her in September of 1869. This was one of her trousseau dresses, which meant it's a dress she'll wear in her first year or so of marriage. Unfortunately, she got pregnant and she died in childbirth in September of 1870. I know that, in this case, her daughter, the child who was born at that point, Amelia, is the donor of this dress. There she is right about the time of her engagement. >> She lived to be only about 24, 25, years old. >> That's right. This, skipping to the 70s, obviously a big change has happened here. We've skipped a bustle era. In between the two bustle eras-- There's bustle era in the 70s and a bustle era in the 80s, and in between there's what people call the natural form. You actually see sort of a normal human body for a brief time between about '78 and '82. That's what you're seeing here. This was worn by a young woman named Louisa who lived in Appleton. Her father was mayor of Appleton. What's special about this picture is in our collection, I don't have it here, is we have a picture of her wearing this dress in 1878. >> The difference maybe between this dress and some of the dresses with the bustles might be, would this dress be of a lighter fabric, and therefore wouldn't need the bustle to support it? >> Bustles just go out of style for a while. What happens with the Victorian era is you usually have a bubble of air somewhere around the body. In 1870s it's the bustle. It grows really big, about two feet in projection. >> Not so much a bustle as a caboose! >> Yes, it's a caboose, that's right. It hits it's projection height, or depth, in 1873 at two feet, and then it slowly deflates. In 1878 it's totally deflated, and it re-inflates about 1883. >> And I suppose in earlier times, I think you were telling me, at one point, that say in the eighteenth century, that hoop would have been side to side rather than fore and aft. >> Yes, it went sideways. They were called panniers. Pannier is French for basket. So it looks like you have two baskets hanging off the side. So yes, if you looked at me from the sideways, I'd look very skinny. But if you looked at me from the front I'd have these hips that should go out, maybe four feet. >> Then the hoop, or the bustle, then also becomes more a fore and aft thing. >> That's what happens. You had that elliptical hoop with the woman standing in the front. If we took the hoop out and took the fabric that was back there and sort of lumped it onto your bottom, you end up needing support underneath there. You need a bustle to keep it's shape. But that's kind of the evolution of that style. >> Were there actual attachments that would enhance the shape of a woman's posterior? >> Oh, yes! By the 1880s they're built in, but in the 1870s they wore a separate bustle. In the 1880s you could wear a separate bustle. You'd wear a sep aerate bustle and then your dress would have a bustle built into it. That's how you can get that extra projection. That's important. >> But we have to say too, that this is well before the invention of the zipper. >> Yes. >> It must have been quite a project getting into any of these dresses that we've seen so far. >> Yes, it helps to have help. Your husband could help you, your sister, your mother, your maid, according to where you are in society. But there is a struggle to get into these. I know. I've been in this stuff. >> Shall we talk about the layers a little bit. I mean, I keep visualizing the scene from "Gone With the Wind" when, you know, Scarlet is hugging the bedpost while somebody literally puts a boot to her backside to tighten those stays. >> Basically, the layers would start with a shift. You put your drawers on. You put on your corset, your corset cover and your petticoats. Then you put your dress on. So that's generally what's involved. Then if there's a hoop of bustle for that era, you would put that on as well. Corsets change over time. In the picture we're looking at now with the purple dress here, that natural form, up to that point we had hoops or we had bustles and the hips got covered up by all this fabric and all these layers. You hit the natural form era, all the sudden you're seeing hips for the first time in anyone's memory for the most part. You have to start wearing your corset tighter, and you have to start wearing it longer. But up to that point, in the Scarlet O'Hara thing, she wanted a 17-inch waist after being pregnant. A 17-inch waist is paper towel roll, okay? It's not very practical. Most women did not aim for that. >> That's barely human. >> Most women aimed not to have a 17-inch waist, especially after marriage. It wasn't as necessary. It was sort of a fetish that some women had, and Scarlet had it. But most women wanted to breath. You put on a corset because you need to be respectable, you need to be straight-laced. You needed to be laced into your corset. Not a loose woman with your bosoms hanging loose because you don't have your corset on. You need to be respectable, but you want to breathe. >> But the corset could actually enhance three different body parts at once, is that right? If it were long enough? >> It pushes up the breasts, it narrows the waist and it should have some fullness through the hips. This dress that we're looking at is actually another trousseau dress. It's from Frances Miner. That was her maiden name. She got married in 1880, so this dress is still the natural form era. We still like to have a lot of back emphasis, even though the bustle's not there, so she has these long-- It's a gold and purple brocade, coming down her back, which is then knotted and has tassels at the end. It should be knotted around the knees. It was considered kind of sexy to bring emphasis to the back of the legs. >> The tassels, you mean, would be part of that. >> The tassels at the very bottom are part of that. The bottom is flatted out, but the backside is still interesting. >> We would say, really all these dresses we've seen so far are for women of means. >> Yes. Yes, they are. >> They would all be expensive. >> Probably the one from Appleton worn by Louisa is not quite as expensive at the other ones. It sort of stands out as a little less impressive >> Do we know that any of these dresses were made in Wisconsin, or were they all imports? You know, commissions? >> Probably some of them were made here, but I don't have any specific information on who made them. This dress that we're looking at now is from 1883. The bustle is starting to come back. It hasn't come back all the way. We know this was made by the Mandel Brothers in Chicago. This woman lived in Withee. Her husband was Niran Withee, so this is Mrs. Niran Withee. He founded the town of Withee, and he was a lumber baron and had lots of money. She could go to Chicago, have a custom made dress made for her. This is what she choose. It is a slight bustle dress, because it is 1883. I think we have a side view or a back view. This is a dinner gown, by the way. >> We haven't really talked too much about fabric for these upscale dresses. >> Most of what you've seen so far is brocade. They're all silk. >> Brocade is just a heavy silk. >> No, a brocade has a design woven into it. It's usually two colors, has a design woven into it that can be kind of elaborate. All the dresses we've seen so far are silk. So these are their best dresses for the most part. >> What would be the lesser fabrics? >> Cotton was considered a wash dress, which meant that you could sweat in it and wash it, and wear it again. So it had no prestige. >> If you could wear it again it had no prestige? How times have changed! >> If you could wear it over and over-- So you don't go out in cotton dresses unless you are, you know, working. You can wear it around the house, as a house dress, but you wouldn't wear nice cotton dress. >> Is this a close up of a brocade that we're looking at here? >> No, actually this is a close-up of the satin with the beading in the front of the dress. I just wanted to show you how elaborate this dress is, even up close, in the details. >> It certainly is that. >> This is another elaborate dress. This is 1890, so the huge bustle era I don't have well represented in any of these. This is after the second deflation. She has a little bustle which we'll see in a moment. This was worn by Helen Kimberly Smith. >> Of the Kimberly-Clark family? >> Yes, Kimberly-Clark up in Neenah. I have actually just learned that this was probably her at-home dress. She got married in 1889, I think that's right. She got married in 1889, December 28th. Then she, for her honeymoon, she went to Europe. When she came back she had an at-home, which means people could now come visit her as the new bride. Her house had a fire that day and they ended up being in a different house. We believe now that this is the dress she wore at her at-home. >> Do we see any difference in the dress as according to the season it would have been worn? >> A little bit. You might have slightly lighter fabrics in the summer. They didn't really worry about that too much. >> It seems a little ironic, doesn't it, that at a time when it was relatively difficult to get around. I mean, climbing in and out of a carriage and going up a lot of steps, you wouldn't have the luxury of an elevator often and that kind of thing, let along an escalator. It seems ironic that these dresses were so complicated. Whereas today when it's so easy to get around, everyone's virtually in sportswear by comparison. >> That's right, and also they didn't have air conditioning and they're wearing a lot more cloths than we do. >> That's what those fainting couches were for. >> Yeah, that's mainly from the corsets though, pulling in your breathing abilities. This dress is 1890. It's definitely the height of fashion at this point. You can tell it's an indoor dress because you only wear trains indoors for the most part. >> So you have to get from indoors to indoor, or this would be some big house of some kind where you would stay and just go from your room to the ballroom or over to dinner. >> Yes, and that's what's happening with this dress. This is actually hand- embroidered with irises. It shows you the amount of money this family had, that they could afford this kind of luxurious fabric. >> Was there anything other than hand-made dresses at the point? Were there mass-produced dresses? >> Not so much at this time. You get ready-to-wear underwear first, and you get ready-to-wear men's suits. But you don't get ready-to-wear women's dresses really until the late 1890, 1900. This is a picture of her. She's on the far right, just if you want to put a head on that dress. That's Helen Kimberly Smith with her four sisters. >> That's one of the impressive things about this collection at the Historical Society is that not only do we have the dresses, in many cases we know exactly who they belonged to and in some cases we even have pictures of them wearing the dresses. >> And with some of these we have the accessories as well. >> Like even the matching handbag? >> Hang bags weren't so big, but the hats, shoes, bonnets, that kind of thing. This dress is probably our second best dress after the purple one I showed you. This is an Emile Pingat made dress. He was a Charles Frederick Worth competitor in Paris, France. This was worn by Mrs. Allis. You may have heard of Allis-Chalmers. >> Indeed, Allis. >> This is Mrs. Sarah Allis, and this dress is from about 1890, the same year as the last one. She obviously had money. Actually, you know what, this isn't Mrs. Allis. This is Mrs. Chapman. You may have heard of T.A. Chapman's Department store. >> Right. >> I'm sorry, it's Mrs. T.A. Chapman. >> We'll get to Allis later. >> I think she's the next one. But anyway, Mrs. Chapman's husband owned a department store in Milwaukee. I thought it was interesting that she still went to France to get her cloths made. This would also be a dinner gown. It is also another brocade. >> I was going to say, it has the sheen, doesn't it? >> Yep, definitely. It's a silk satin front with a brocade bodice inside, and train. Then you can sort of see that the bustle has disappeared a bit, but it's still kind of bustled. >> Still deflating. >> It's in it's deflation mode, yes. But you can see how rich this is. Pingat also made dresses about the same time as Worth, about 1860 to the 1890s. Now this is Mrs. Allis' dress. >> This has a train. >> Yes, this is another dinner gown. It's from 1902. We know exactly when she bought it and we know who made it, Hannah Plant. She was a dressmaker out of New York City. She was in New York City and had this dress made for her. The story is that when she brought it back to Milwaukee she had no place to wear a dress this fancy. So she never really wore it. We don't know if she wore it in New York, but she definitely did not wear it in Milwaukee. So this is Mrs. Allis of Allis-Chalmers. This is a black net with encrusted beads on it, over a blue satin. I think we have a picture of the front. You can see the encrusted over-vest that's just-- I mean, it alone is not light-weight. >> It's still a rather narrow waist, although not as extreme as some of the one's we've seen. >> In 1902 you still want smsll a waist. >> When people traveled how many dresses could you get in a steamer trunk? >> Well, it matters what time period. Those 1880s dresses that are the really thick satin, you can't get too many of them in there. When we move on in time you can get more. These dresses, you can get a few more in there. Now the dress we're seeing now was worn by Mrs. Meadow Berger. Victor Berger was her husband. Victor Berger was a-- >> A famous socialist. >> A famous socialist, he was also a US Representative. He got elected in 1910 out of Milwaukee. She was just a regular Milwaukee woman, not particularly well to do, but she felt she needed a dress to wear when she was in Washington DC to all those receptions. Lizzy -- School, which was a school for girls, had just opened the previous year in 1909 and they offered to make her a dress to wear in Washington DC, and this is that dress. >> So this would be really a middle class woman who needs something special. >> Yes. We do have a picture of her wearing it. The dress that we have has obviously been altered. It's obviously this dress, but it's been, I think, badly altered. I don't know whether that happened before we got it, which would have been around 1945, I think. >> Have dress sizes changed? >> Well, you know, if you got a pattern for a dress size from 1970 for a size 14, it would probably be a size six today, or something like that. They fudged them. They did not have dress sizes back then. You made the dress to the body. >> Easier to sell if the size is lower? >> Yes. >> But it fits anyway, kind of thing? >> Yes. >> Talk about inflation and deflation. >> Yes. In this time period you could buy patterns, and you would buy them by your bust or waist or hip size. >> Now I have seen, in fact I bought one years ago, nothing was ever done with it but, I bought a dress pattern from the State Historical Society. It was a 1857. It was as big as an entire dress would be today. So was this a pattern that was designed from the dress? In other words, reverse engineered? >> Yes. In fact, that was that green dress worn by Mrs. Hannah Billingshurst. That's the pattern you bought. >> Well, someday we'll get to see it in action if we get the right material. >> It does take eight yards. >> Eight yards of what? Brocade? >> Brocade is not bad. I had that dress made for me in a silk stripe. I find the best fabrics are upholstery fabrics. If you look at the upholstery fabric today, you'll find good nineteenth century. >> You must be a lot of fun at a costume party. There's nobody else who's likely to have the same dress. >> Oh, no! >> And what do we have here. >> This dress was worn by another lumber baron's daughter. Her name was Ella Smith, after she got married. We have almost her whole wardrobe from about the time she got married around the late 1880s, up her death in 1945. >> She just kept things. >> She kept things. She was a great dresser. She dressed to the fashion even when she got older. This dress would have probably been when she was about 45 to 50. >> She was still rather slim, it looks like. >> Yes, she was. This is definitely an amazing dress. It's hand painted silk with velvet trim. And it's from about 1910, 1912. >> Where things are definitely slimming down. You get a more vertical look it seems. >> Yes, you do. This was 1919, and this was worn by Zona Gale, who you may have heard of. >> Yes. >> Oh, good. Zona Gale is out of Portage, Wisconsin. She won a Pulitzer Prize as a play write for her play "Miss Lulu Bett." This was a dress that we believe she purchased in New York City, and probably wore in New York City. But she may have worn it back here in Portage. When she past away in 1938 her husband offered us, allowed us, to come into her house and take what we wanted. We took a lot of her cloths. >> So what percentage of the Historical Society's wardrobe holdings, costumes as you call them, actually get to be seen by the public? >> Less than one percent. >> There's just too much. >> We have about 25,000 pieces of clothing. Clothing is very hard to put on display for any length of time. >> I suppose it's out of the question to actually have somebody wear it. >> That would be a big no-no in the museum world. In the past, we have pictures of previous curators wearing some of these cloths, especially Mrs. Fairchild's Worth gown. I have a series of photographs of different women wearing it in the 1940s. We don't do that anymore. It's not considered good museum practice. >> Not good curating? >> Not good curating. You can make a copy and wear it, and that's what we've been doing. >> Is it pretty much possible to copy all of the materials and all of the stitching? >> Getting fabric that's nineteenth century-like is a challenge. I have found it to be a challenge. >> We are head and shoulders out of the nineteenth century with this one. >> Yes, we are. We have moved into the flapper era. This is about 1927. This was worn to junior prom at University of Wisconsin by Dorothy Gregory Colts. Gregory was her maiden name. Junior prom was the big event of your university career. It happened in your senior year, but it was-- The junior class put on a prom for the senior class. That's why it's called the junior prom. >> What else might she have worn with this? It looks a little too simple the way it is. >> This is about it. She might have a headband. This is a dance dress, so she's not going to have a whole lot. >> Plenty of freedom of movement offered by that dress. >> And when it moved those feathers, these are ostrich feathers, would have moved with it. It's all panels of chiffon edged with ostrich feathers. It just moved beautifully as she was dancing. This you would have probably would have just carried an ostrich feather fan with. This is her in her yearbook picture at the UW, the University of Wisconsin. >> At the age of about 22, something like that. >> Yep. She went on to become one of our board members so I think that's why we got her dress. So that's kind of fun. But yeah, obviously things got short for a while in the 20s, then this is 1929. This was worn by Jessie -- She was known for being a peace advocate. I think she's out of Milwaukee. She wore this dress to Geneva, Switzerland for a peace conference. So she had to wear something spectacular. She took other cloths with her, but this was her spectacular dress that she wore there. She was just generally trying to promote peace in the post-World War I era among Europe, and using American ideals to kind of do that. This is the dress she took with her. >> As we get into the 1920s and 30s, another kind of accessory question. The dresses so often are so simple. What would be sort of the fashionable thing wear with a dress like that? >> You'd probably have some kind of wrap with this, it could be a stole, you know, fur. It could be a velvet opera cape. >> A necklace, pearls? >> Definitely, pearls would be appropriate, and probably very long, almost down to your knees. Not this dress, but maybe the dress before it. This is our last dress I think we have. This is from 1932. We actually have the dress, but here's a photograph of it being worn in 1932. I think it's Mrs. Andrew Warner. She wore it to Franklin Roosevelt's inauguration ball in 1933. She probably bought it in '32 in December, then wore it in '33 in January. It's a Battenburg lace over a tan slip. >> I think it's yellow. >> It has a big, huge, yellow ribbon. >> Over a darker color? >> No, it's off-white with a big, yellow ribbon sash. You can sort of see that sash very prominently in this picture. >> Did fashions change radically from the late 20s to the early 30s when the Depression came in? We think of the 20s being such a care-free, as we say, the flapper era. All kinds of taboos were out. But then we think of the 30s suddenly as being so much more gray and serious. Was that the case with the fashion? Did it change rapidly, or no? >> Think of Ginger Rogers. She's 1930s, and she's not gray and drab. >> But she does have to dance though. >> Yes, she does. What happens is the dress got up to just below the knees in the mid-20s as we saw with that green flapper dress, and then by 1930 it's down about mid-calf. It will stay there, more or less, the rest of the 30s. So it becomes more conservative in the dress. >> Then by the time you get into the 40s, we're not talking about a ball gown so much, but I guess formal wear. Short of that, the hem was really pretty much knee length, isn't it? >> Yes, it was. >> Or even a trifle higher in the 40s. >> It's about right at the knee. It's also the era of the big shoulder pads, so it's an interesting look, to put it mildly. >> Do you have a personal favorite if we go from the 1850s to the 1930s? One that you think, wow, if only we could dress that way now? >> I don't know if I would go, dress that way now. I'd like to try it on, but maybe not spend all day in it. I am a bustle era person through and through. I love the 1880s cloths. I like how complicated they are, that you have to really think about how to put this garment onto your body. There's usually lots of hooks and eyes in strange places to make everything hang right. That is definitely my favorite era. I love the fabrics from that time period too. >> We haven't even touched on, of course shoes, which must have changed accordingly. When you talk about hooks and eyes, late nineteenth century you've got your J.C. Penney button hook and you have to us it, what about 12 times just to get each shoe on? >> That's right. Button shoes come in around probably around the 1870s, I would think, about that time. Up to that point you'd lace up your shoes. >> And the idea is that nobody would see them. >> That's right. A little ankle showing is a little risque, which is why they didn't see your stockings either. >> That actually, the long hemline seems to have carried all the way to what? Right before World War I? Before we actually started seeing ankles? >> You start seeing ankle around 1914, maybe '13, but definitely 1914, 1915 you're seeing ankles. What happens is then the shoe gets taller. As the hemline goes up, the shoe races after it. So if you see a really high shoe, you know with a long leg to it-- >> That implies a short hemline. >> It means a short hemline, and it means it's probably the 19-teens. >> Well, do you have a swimsuit collection there too? >> Oh, yes. >> Well, you'll have to come back and talk about that sometime. >> Okay. >> Talk about changing fashions. >> That is very dramatic. >> Thanks for being with me for this 60 years worth of drama in women's fashions with the dresses, Leslie Bellais. >> You're welcome. >> It's been a great pleasure. I'm Norman Gilliland, and I hope you can join me next time around for University Place Presents.