FREDERICA FREYBERG:

BUT FIRST, SWEEPING CHANGES AT THE DNR WERE REVEALED IN AN AGENCY MEMO ON TUESDAY. THE REORGANIZATION INCLUDES COMBINING WATER AND AIR POLLUTION MANAGEMENT INTO ONE DIVISION. CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES LIKE SHORELINE ZONING, DAM SAFETY, WETLANDS PROTECTION AND FARM RUNOFF POLLUTION WILL BE PLACED IN A NEW DIVISION CALLED “BUSINESS SUPPORT AND EXTERNAL SERVICES.” RUNOFF AND SHORELINE ZONING WERE PART OF THE DNR’S WATER DIVISION, WHICH IS BEING ELIMINATED, AS IS ITS BUREAU OF SCIENCE SERVICES. DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP DECLINED OUR REQUEST FOR AN INTERVIEW, HOWEVER, SHE DID SEND US A STATEMENT ABOUT THE REMODELING AT DNR. SHE SAYS, QUOTE, THE DEPARTMENT WILL BE GOING THROUGH A COORDINATED PROCESS RESULTING IN STAFFING AND SYSTEM CHANGES OVER THE NEXT YEAR. LAWS AND RULES ARE NOT CHANGING. THIS ALIGNMENT DOES NOT RESULT IN LESS RESOURCE PROTECTION. THIS IS AN UNPRECEDENTED EFFORT TO MAKE GOVERNMENT MORE EFFICIENT AND EFFECTIVE IN ACCOMPLISHING OUR MISSION. A FORMER DNR SECRETARY IS NOT HAPPY ABOUT THE CHANGES. GEORGE MEYER IS NOW THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE WISCONSIN WILDLIFE FEDERATION. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

GEORGE MEYER:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT REALLY JUMPS OUT IMMEDIATELY IS PUTTING THINGS LIKE SHORELINE ZONING AND RUNOFF POLLUTION INTO THE BUSINESS SUPPORT UNIT. WHAT’S YOUR ACTION TO THAT?

GEORGE MEYER:

THAT’S MY MAJOR CONCERN WITH THIS REORGANIZATION. MANY PARTS OF THE REORGANIZATION ARE FINE, BUT RIGHT NOW THEY CREATED AN ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION DIVISION WHICH HAS A LOT OF THE WATER PROTECTION FUNCTIONS IN IT LIKE INDUSTRIAL PERMITS, MUNICIPAL PERMITS, AND THE WATER QUALITY PROGRAM, BUT THEN THEY SEPARATE OUT A VERY KEY PART OF THAT PROGRAM, WHICH IS THE NON-POINT RUNOFF, THE POLLUTION RUNOFF OFF THE LAND AND THE SHORELAND ZONING AND THE WETLAND PROTECTION, ALL VERY KEY WATER QUALITY AREAS, AND PUT THAT IN A DIFFERENT DIVISION, ONE THAT IS RUN BY THE BUSINESS PART OF THE DEPARTMENT. AND OUR MAJOR CONCERN IS WATER POLLUTION IS STILL A SEVERE PROBLEM IN THIS STATE. AND WE NEED A CLOSELY COORDINATED EFFORT WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT TAKING INTO ACCOUNT MUNICIPAL, INDUSTRIAL AND AGRICULTURAL RUNOFF. AND I’M AFRAID, AND MANY PEOPLE ARE AFRAID WE’RE GOING TO LOSE ANY ADVANCES WE CAN MAKE IN PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND SO IF IT’S PUT INTO A UNIT BUSINESS SUPPORT, BUSINESS SUPPORT UNIT, DOES THAT MEAN THAT IT’S THERE TO HELP BUSINESSES KIND OF STREAMLINE REGULATIONS?

GEORGE MEYER ERICA FREYBERG:

THAT APPEARS TO BE WHAT THEY’RE AIMING AT. THERE’S BEEN A LOT OF CONTROVERSY OVER SHORELAND PROTECTION, OVER WETLANDS REGULATION, AND IN FACT, THIS WILL BE IN AN AREA WHERE THERE’S GOING TO BE GREAT PRESSURE TO STREAMLINE AND LOOSEN REGULATIONS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW IS CONSOLIDATING WATER AND AIR POLLUTION INTO A SINGLE UNIT NECESSARILY A BAD THING?

GEORGE MEYER:

NO, THAT ISN’T. AND THE RATIONALE BEHIND THAT IS THESE ARE FUNCTIONS WHERE THE US EPA IS A MAIN ACTOR IN REGARD TO THESE, AND IN FACT, THERE HAS TO BE CLOSE COORDINATION BETWEEN THAT DIVISION WITH US EPA. WHAT WE’RE SAYING IS, THESE OTHER FUNCTIONS ARE ALSO COVERED BY THE CLEAN WATER ACT, AND SHOULD BE PART OF THAT SAME DIVISION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IS THIS ABOUT A WISCONSIN DNR THAT HAS TO DO MORE WITH LESS, AND THEN WHAT DOES THAT SPELL FOR ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION?

GEORGE MEYER:

THAT’S THE OTHER MAJOR CONCERN WE HAVE OVER THIS. THIS AGENCY IS EXTREMELY DEMORALIZED. THEY LOST 93 POSITIONS IN THE LAST BUDGET. THEIR ENVIRONMENTAL STANDARDS WERE CUT IN THE LAST BUDGET. THEY’VE LOST 600 POSITIONS IN THE LAST 20 YEARS. AND AT THIS TIME, THERE’S BEEN A TREMENDOUS GROWTH BOTH IN FRAC SAND MINING HAS EXPLODED THE LAST FIFTEEN YEARS IN THE STATE. LARGE ANIMAL OPERATIONS HAVE EXPLODED IN NUMBER AND THEY, IN FACT, NEED MORE EMPLOYEES, NOT FEWER EMPLOYEES. AND BECAUSE OF THESE CUTS, THE TURMOIL THAT’S GOING TO BE CAUSED BY A REORGANIZATION EFFORT, WE’RE GOING TO LOSE STAFF TIME AND CONCENTRATION ON REALLY WHAT THE KEY FUNCTIONS ARE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD FROM PEOPLE WHO CURRENTLY WORK THERE? AND I’M SURE YOU KNOW MANY OF THEM STILL, ABOUT THESE STAFF CHANGES AND REDUCTIONS?

GEORGE MEYER:

THEY ARE DEMORALIZED. THE BUDGET REALLY HIT THEM HARD. THEY WERE REALLY HURT BY THE FACT THAT THEIR SECRETARY OPENLY WAS SUPPORTING MAJOR CUTS IN THOSE PROGRAMS, AND NOW THEY HAVE A REORGANIZATION. I THOUGHT THE MORALE WAS BAD A MONTH AGO. AFTER THIS CAME OUT, IT’S EVEN LOWER IN THE AGENCY.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND YET THE SECRETARY DESCRIBES HER MISSION AND THE ADMINISTRATION’S MISSION TO BE MORE EFFICIENT, AND THAT THAT WOULD KIND OF DOVETAIL WITH A FOCUS ON STREAMLINING REGULATIONS.

GEORGE MEYER:

CLEARLY AN AGENCY HAS TO BE EFFICIENT, BUT THIS AGENCY HAS BEEN CUT TO THE POINT THAT IT’S ACTUALLY GETTING HOLLOWED OUT FROM INSIDE. I MEAN, THINK ABOUT THAT. 20% OF THEIR EMPLOYEES HAVE BEEN CUT OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS AND THE WORKLOAD HAS GONE UP. IT ISN’T A MATTER OF EFFICIENCY ANYMORE, IT’S REBUILDING THE AGENCY, SO IT CAN PROPERLY MANAGE THE ENVIRONMENT AND PROTECT NATURAL RESOURCES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AND YET THE SECRETARY SAYS THAT THIS ALIGNMENT DOES NOT RESULT IN LESS RESOURCE PROTECTION. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

GEORGE MEYER:

ANY TIME YOU SPLIT PART OF THE WATER QUALITY FUNCTIONS FROM THE OTHER WATER QUALITY FUNCTIONS THAT WILL NOT CREATE EFFICIENCIES. A LAKE IS AFFECTED BOTH BY THE INDUSTRIAL, MUNICIPAL POLLUTION GOING INTO IT AND THE RUNOFF. YOU NEED THOSE UNITS WORKING VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER TO SOLVE THE POLLUTION PROBLEMS IN OUR STREAMS AND LAKES, AND NOT PUT THEM IN DIFFERENT UNITS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IS IT YOUR SENSE THAT AT THIS POINT, THERE HAS BEEN SOME DEGRADATION OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN?

GEORGE MEYER:

IN TERMS OF WATER QUALITY, WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS IN MANY OF THE LAKES AND STREAMS. PHOSPHOROUS RUNOFF IS CONTINUING, AN INCREASING PROBLEM IN THIS STATE. EVERY YEAR, EVERY TWO YEARS, DNR’S INCREASINGLY PUTTING MORE LAKES AND STREAMS ONTO THE FEDERAL LIST OF LAKES AND STREAMS THAT DON’T MEET THE FEDERAL STANDARDS, AND IN THE WATER QUALITY AREA, WE ARE GOING BACKWARDS IN THE STATE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ANY OTHER AREAS? AIR QUALITY?

GEORGE MEYER:

AIR QUALITY, THERE ARE AREAS OF CONCERNS AROUND WHERE SOME OF THE FRAC SAND MINING IS THAT’S TAKING PLACE. MANY OF THE FACILITIES ARE RUN VERY WELL BUT THERE ARE AREAS WHERE THAT IS A PROBLEM.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I KNOW GOVERNOR WALKER HAS SAID RECENTLY AS A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT THAT HE WANTED TO ELIMINATE THE EPA. WHAT MESSAGE IS HE SENDING THERE?

GEORGE MEYER:

THAT’S A VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM. I STARTED WORKING IN THE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES BEFORE THERE WAS AN EPA AND CLEAN WATER ACT, CLEAN AIR ACT. IN FACT, WE HAD FISH YOU COULD NOT EAT. MANY OF THE STREAMS DID NOT HAVE ANY GAME FISH IN THEM. THE AIR POLLUTION WAS TERRIBLE IN THE STATE BACK IN THE 1970s. THAT’S WHEN WE DIDN’T HAVE AN EPA. WHEN EPA COMES IN, IT CAN REQUIRE STATES TO MAINTAIN THOSE STANDARDS, SO IN FACT BUSINESSES DON’T THREATEN TO LEAVE THE STATE TO GO TO A STATE WITH LESSER REGULATIONS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

GEORGE MAYER, WE LEAVE IT THERE, THANKS VERY MUCH.

GEORGE MEYER:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FREDERICA.