PBS News Hour

AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett.

On the "News Hour" tonight: The U.S. economy added jobs at a solid pace last month, but massive federal layoffs and rising unemployment paint an uncertain picture of the near future.

AMNA NAWAZ: A convicted murderer in South Carolina chooses to be executed by firing squad, the first such execution in 15 years, raising legal and ethical questions.

GEOFF BENNETT: And what science tells us about transgender athletes, as Republicans seek to block them from playing in women's sports.

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT, University of Washington School of Medicine: There are going to be inherent inequalities between people, and how do we limit those inequalities and yet allow everybody to play?

(BREAK) GEOFF BENNETT: Welcome to the "News Hour."

The U.S. labor market made solid gains again last month, adding 151,000 more jobs just before the biggest federal layoffs began to hit.

AMNA NAWAZ: Unemployment crept up to 4.1 percent.

More than seven million Americans are unemployed.

Manufacturing had its best report in months, with 10,000 new jobs, which President Trump hailed at the White House.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: We have not only stopped that manufacturing collapse, but we have begun to rapidly reverse it and get major gains.

We created 10,000 manufacturing jobs in February alone.

That hasn't happened in a long time.

And these aren't government jobs, which actually we cut.

These are private sector manufacturing jobs.

So we gained all of those jobs, 10,000 jobs, and we barely started yet.

GEOFF BENNETT: The economy actually last added more than 10,000 manufacturing jobs just a few months ago, back in November of 2024.

But there are other warning signs of what could be ahead not yet fully captured in this report.

AMNA NAWAZ: The outplacement firm Challenger, Gray reported more than 170,000 layoffs last month, more than 62,000 of those from the federal government.

That is the highest monthly total it's reported since 2020.

Julia Coronado is an economist at the University of Texas in Austin, who runs her own firm called MacroPolicy Perspectives.

Julia, welcome back to the "News Hour."

Thanks for joining us.

JULIA CORONADO, MacroPolicy Perspectives: Thank you.

It's my pleasure.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, 151,000 jobs added in February.

That is up from 143,000 in January.

How do you look at this report?

What do you see?

JULIA CORONADO: It was a solid report.

That's a very respectable job gain.

But there were under the hood some signs of cooling.

As you noted, the biggest federal layoffs that have been announced and actually followed through on really hit after the data was collected.

The data collected -- was collected for this report through mid-February.

Most of those layoffs have happened since then.

So we expect something like a 30,000 loss of jobs in the March report or maybe possibly even greater.

We also saw the unemployment rate creep up.

That's, again, still a very low -- 4.1 percent still a very low unemployment rate, so not in and of itself a warning sign.

But we saw underemployment also rise.

That is, we had almost half-a-million people take part-time jobs who wanted full-time jobs.

And that's something we track as kind of a leading indicator of cooling conditions.

So we're going to have to keep an eye on that.

AMNA NAWAZ: You saw President Trump there emphasizing the 10,000 jobs added in manufacturing in particular.

Those adds, though, they were dwarfed by jobs added in other sectors like education and health, where we saw some 73,000 jobs added.

We saw 19,000 jobs added in construction.

The president noted, though, that manufacturing has really been struggling.

So does he have a point in pulling that out?

Is that number of jobs added notable to you?

JULIA CORONADO: Not really; 10,000 is a relatively small number in the grand scheme of 150,000, which has been about the pace we have been seeing.

And it bounces around from month to month.

So I think you noted there was a greater than 10,000-job gain in November.

It's been bouncing around plus-minus.

The manufacturing sector in general has been pretty subdued.

After a surge of good spending during the pandemic, consumers have really shifted their spending to services.

And manufacturing has been flatlining.

And, most recently, some sentiment indicators suggest some warning signs.

Of course, manufacturing is going to be the epicenter of any trade wars.

And we hear anecdotes of a lot of uncertainty just in terms of making plans, making capital spending plans or hiring plans when you just don't know what the landscape looks like.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, what about those concerns about the on-again and off-again tariffs from the Trump administration that they could be inflationary, they could even lead to a recession?

Do you share those concerns?

JULIA CORONADO: I think it's too early to say that the U.S. is heading to a recession.

Certainly, we have seen the U.S. just continue to be more resilient than people expect year after year, quarter after quarter.

And one of the things the U.S. has going in its favor is that it is the most diversified economy.

We have manufacturing, we have construction, we have professional services jobs, we have some of them, health care, as you noted, been a big contributor to job gains.

So we have a really robust diversified economy.

We do worry, though, not just about the federal job losses.

The federal sector is pretty small.

It's less than 2 percent of the work force.

But there's been a lot of cuts in contract payments to contractors with the federal government.

And that's probably twice as big as the actual loss of federal jobs directly.

So we're really watching that carefully.

Who contracts with the federal government?

Pretty much everybody, from farmers to hospitals to universities to primary schools.

And those are areas where job gains have been really strong over the last year or two.

So we're watching for signs that those sectors that have really driven the gains feel the squeeze of both the reduced payments, as well as just the uncertainty that hangs over the environment right now.

AMNA NAWAZ: Meanwhile, Julia, in the minute or so I have left, I know you were at a conference in New York today where the Fed chair, Jay Powell, spoke.

Did you get any sense of how the Fed is preparing to navigate all of this, the tariffs, the dramatic government cuts?

What's ahead?

JULIA CORONADO: So the message today was very clear that they're not in a rush to judgment.

The plan has been to lower interest rates further.

That's very complicate if they're facing a burst of inflation from tariffs.

And the message from Chair Powell was, with a still solid-labor market, we can afford to take our time and see how this combination of policies, trade up wars and tariffs, restricted immigration, but on the other side, fiscal policy, potential deregulation, how does that all fit together and affect the overall economy?

They can kind -- they're taking kind of a wait-and-see approach.

AMNA NAWAZ: All right, Julia Coronado, MacroPolicy Perspectives, thank you so much for your time and insights.

We appreciate it.

JULIA CORONADO: My pleasure.

GEOFF BENNETT: The day's other headlines start in Western Texas, where health officials say an ongoing measles outbreak has now infected nearly 200 people.

The extremely contagious virus has also spread to even more parts of the U.S.

The CDC says it's confirmed cases in 12 different states.

The vast majority of those in the U.S. been under the age of 18 and people who are unvaccinated.

At least one person has died and authorities are looking into a second measles-related death.

However, the CDC says the risk of a broader measles outbreak remains low.

The Trump administration is canceling $400 million worth of grants and contracts for Columbia University.

In announcing the move, officials cited what they described as Columbia's failure to stop antisemitism on campus.

The Ivy League school was at the forefront of student protests last spring over the war in Gaza.

In a statement, Education Secretary Linda McMahon said, to receive federal funds -- quote -- "Universities must comply with all federal anti-discrimination laws," adding that Columbia has abandoned that obligation to Jewish students.

Columbia has vowed to work with the government, saying it is fully committed to combating antisemitism.

Russia launched dozens of missiles and drones toward Ukraine overnight in the first major attack since the U.S. paused intelligence sharing with Ukrainian officials.

In Kharkiv, emergency crews cleaned up after a strike that targeted energy facilities and other infrastructure.

At least 10 people were injured across the country.

On social media today, President Trump said he is -- quote -- "strongly considering" putting sanctions and tariffs on Russia and urged both Russia and Ukraine to get to the table right now before it is too late.

But, later, speaking to reporters in the Oval Office, Mr. Trump said he's actually finding it easier to deal with Russia than Ukraine.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: We're doing very well with Russia.

But, right now, they're bombing the hell out of Ukraine.

And Ukraine -- I'm finding it more difficult, frankly, to deal with Ukraine.

GEOFF BENNETT: U.S. and Ukrainian officials are expected to meet in Saudi Arabia next week to discuss peace talks.

In France, trains are starting to roll at Paris' busiest train station once again after the discovery of an unexploded World War II-era bomb halted rail travel.

Police released this photo of the device, which contains more than 400 pounds of explosive material.

Workers stumbled upon it overnight while working near tracks north of the station.

As crews worked to defused the bomb, passengers for high-speed and commuter services were stranded for hours.

Officials say it's not uncommon to come across vestiges of the war, though this one was bigger than most.

MAN (through translator): Finding bombs around the railway network is something that happens.

But in a proportion like the one today with a bomb of this size, it's really quite exceptional.

GEOFF BENNETT: Bomb disposal officials said the device was British-made.

It is the fourth one they found in the Paris region since 2019.

Back here in the U.S., officials in New Mexico say that actor Gene Hackman died of heart disease and showed severe signs of Alzheimer's.

In a press conference today, authorities said the 95-year-old passed away a full week after his wife, who died from hantavirus.

The bodies of Hackman and his wife, Betsy Arakawa, were discovered last month in their Santa Fe home.

Hackman won two Oscars during his storied film career and was honored at last Sunday's Academy Awards ceremony.

The nation's largest army installation officially returned to its former name today, Fort Bragg.

The new sign was unveiled to the tune of "The Army Song."

This time, the name Bragg honors Army Private 1st Class Roland Bragg, a World War II paratrooper.

The base had originally been named for Confederate General Braxton Bragg.

So ends the short time that the bass was called Fort Liberty after a push to remove all references of the Confederacy from military installations and other public spaces.

The mission of a lunar lander that touched down sideways yesterday has come to an early end.

Athena sent this picture just before the spacecraft went silent today and ended up in a crater more than 800 feet from its planned landing site near the moon's south pole.

This was the second attempt by the Texas-based company Intuitive Machines to land on the moon.

Last year, its lander Odysseus also ended up on its side.

The company has contracts with NASA for two more deliveries, but says it needs to figure out what went wrong before launching another mission.

On Wall Street today, stocks clawed back some ground after a rough week for the markets.

The Dow Jones industrial average added more than 200 points, or about half-a-percent.

The Nasdaq rose more than 120 points.

The S&P 500 also ended higher today, but overall suffered its worst week since September.

And Dolly Parton has paid tribute to her late husband of nearly 60 years, fittingly enough, through song.

(MUSIC) GEOFF BENNETT: The music legend released "If You Hadn't Been There" earlier today.

Parton met Carl Dean outside of a laundromat the day she moved to Nashville at the age of 18.

They married two years later.

As Parton rose to superstardom, Dean avoided the spotlight.

He died on Monday at the age of 82.

On social media today, Dolly Parton made clear that he has always been her inspiration, writing: "Like all great love stories, they never end.

They live on in memory and song.

He will always be the star of my story."

Still to come on the "News Hour": Jonathan Capehart and Ramesh Ponnuru weigh in on the week's political headlines; and a look at the influence of Black musicians in the history of punk music.

Back in December, NCAA President Charlie Baker testified that, out of the more than 500,000 total college student athletes, he believed fewer than 10 were transgender.

AMNA NAWAZ: Last month, President Trump signed an executive order to ban transgender athletes from participating in girls and women's sports.

White House correspondent Laura Barron-Lopez has a closer look at the debate around this issue.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The president's order was part of a series of moves targeting the rights of trans people.

The order directed federal agencies to withhold funding from schools that allow transgender athletes to compete.

The NCAA quickly changed its rules, limiting participation in women's sports to those assigned female at birth.

And, more recently, Secretary of State Marco Rubio told consulates worldwide to deny visas for transgender athletes coming to the U.S. for competitions.

Also, California Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom broke with his party when he said that fairness is an issue, but that it's important for vulnerable communities to be treated with care.

Dr. Bradley Anawalt is an endocrinologist and professor at the University of Washington.

I spoke with him earlier, and he says that tension is at the heart of the debate.

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT, University of Washington School of Medicine: In sports, we like to have a sense that the playing field is level, that there is fairness in competition.

Another really important value in sports is that we want everybody to have an opportunity to play, particularly when we're talking about young people.

And as a result, with this particular topic, there is apparent conflict between those two values.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: And when signing his executive action banning trans athletes in women's sports, President Trump said this: DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: We will defend the proud tradition of female athletes, and we will not allow men to beat up, injure and cheat our women and our girls.

From now on, women's sports will be only for women.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: What does the science say about a competitive advantage or lack thereof among transgender girls competing in sports?

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT: Well, the evidence is incomplete on that particular question.

The best data we have really comes from military recruits, people that have been enlisted in the Army or the Air Force.

A 2023 study, they have an annual test where they undergo a 1.5-mile timed run.

They do as many sit-ups as they can in a minute, as many push-ups as they can in a minute.

They had data from these individuals before they started gender-affirming hormone therapy, and then each year after that, for up to four years.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Anawalt says, even though the performance of trans women dropped after starting gender-affirming hormones, it took two years for their running times to fall in line with women assigned female at birth.

The sit-up scores of trans women stayed higher until four years after they started hormones, but their push-up scores remained higher the entire time.

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT: What we don't really know is, what are the effects in elite athletes?

Most of the data is from people that are not elite athletes.

And the other thing that we don't know is, how long and how significant are these changes over time?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: This ban appears to include school-age K-12 children.

What do we know about the competitive differences at those ages?

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT: Most experts, there's a general consensus that, before the age of puberty for boys and girls, there's not a significant competitive advantage between the two sexes.

There are some data suggesting there may be some subtle differences between boys and girls, but what's unknown is whether that's due to biological factors or if that's just due to societal factors and expectations, boys being encouraged to participate more in sports and given more opportunities to increase their strength, the speed and power.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Anawalt has advised major athletic associations on hormone use in sports, including among trans athletes.

He says there are many examples of genetic differences that can lead to competitive advantages in sports, heightened basketball, bigger hands and feet in swimming.

He points to a Finnish cross-country skier who had a rare genetic mutation that ramped up his production of red blood cells, significantly increasing his endurance.

He won three Olympic gold medals in the 1960s.

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT: None of these genetic variations or mutations have created the uproar that we're facing with the current controversy that we have around transgender athletes and participation in sports.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: You have said we're never going to be able to answer the fundamental question about fairness when talking about this issue.

Why exactly do you say that?

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT: It comes back to this conflict between these two important values that I alluded to, the fairness and then the desire to allow everybody to participate in sports.

And whenever you do that, there are going to be inherent inequalities between people.

And how do we limit those inequalities and yet allow everybody to play?

I really don't think that science is going to give us a perfect answer on this.

We can get better and better evidence and data about the effects of gender-affirming hormone therapy on athletic performance.

But, ultimately, this is going to be a question for the general public to try to balance out those two very important issues.

And it's also going to be an opportunity for us to ask the question, just how important our sports at the very highest level in our society?

This whole debate rages around sports because of how much we venerate sports and, at this point in time, what an economic engine it's become.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Dr. Bradley Anawalt, we really appreciate your insights on this.

Thank you.

DR. BRADLEY ANAWALT: Thank you for having me.

AMNA NAWAZ: Moments ago, a South Carolina man was put to death by a firing squad after being convicted in a 2001 double homicide to which he pled guilty.

The execution of 67-year-old Brad Sigmon marks the first time since 2010 that a firing squad has been used in this country.

And it comes as the Trump administration works to expand capital punishment, calling for the restoration of federal executions.

For more on all of this, I'm joined by Robin Maher, executive director of the nonpartisan Death Penalty Information Center.

Robin, welcome back to the program.

Thanks for joining us.

ROBIN MAHER, Executive Director, Death Penalty Information Center: It's a pleasure.

AMNA NAWAZ: So I should share that we have just got a release of Brad Sigmon's final words, his last statement.

I want to read just a part to you now.

He quoted several Bible passages.

And he also said: "I want my closing statement to be one of love and a calling to my fellow Christians to help us to end the death penalty."

Robin, it's worth reminding people he chose this method, firing squad, in South Carolina.

And this is part of what his lawyer, Bo King,told us about why he chose this method.

BO KING, Attorney For Brad Sigmon: We know there is something wrong with how South Carolina is carrying out lethal injections, and Mr. Sigmon has repeatedly asked for the information that you would want to know why.

But he's been denied that at every turn.

So, even though the firing squad hasn't been used ever in South Carolina and hasn't been used in the United States in 15 years, he chose that.

It was the best choice that he could make, given all the information that's being kept from him.

AMNA NAWAZ: Robin, what do we know about how executions have been carried out in South Carolina?

ROBIN MAHER: Well, South Carolina carried out its last two executions using lethal injection.

The problem is that the autopsies of the men who were executed revealed that they received more than double a dose of the one drug protocol that was used, that's pentobarbital, for unknown and unexplained reasons.

And the autopsies also showed that one of these men had blood and fluid in his lungs, which indicated that he experienced painful symptoms akin to drowning, a condition called pulmonary edema.

So all of this prompted some very reasonable questions from Mr. Sigmon's lawyers about what drug South Carolina intended to use and how could they explain these anomalies?

As Mr. King just said, they never received that information.

And so Mr. Sigmon was forced to make a very difficult choice, to choose from -- to choose a method he knew almost nothing about, and chose instead to use the firing squad, which had the most information available.

AMNA NAWAZ: And this... ROBIN MAHER: His third option, of course, was to be executed in a 110-year-old electric chair.

That was the default method in South Carolina.

AMNA NAWAZ: And, just for context, this method, a firing squad, how common is this nationally?

Where is it even allowed.

ROBIN MAHER: It's not allowed in very many places.

Only three executions have taken place in the modern death penalty era, and they have all been in Utah.

Five states now authorize use of the firing squad, mostly as alternative methods.

Idaho is considering making it its primary method.

AMNA NAWAZ: The couple that Mr. Sigmon killed were named Gladys and David Larke, his ex-girlfriend's parents.

And we should note even their adult children who testified at the trial were very split on what kind of penalty they wanted to see here.

When you look, Robin, at where the American people are on this issue right now, according to Gallup, support for the death penalty for people convicted of murder, that's been falling over the years, but there are still more people today, some 53 percent, who are in favor of it, than who are not.

That's 43 percent.

What does that say to you?

ROBIN MAHER: Well, there's a diversity of opinions about the death penalty, even among, as you say, family members of people who've lost loved ones to violence.

And that's a big change from what we were previously told years ago.

Many family members now say that the death penalty does not bring them any peace or closure.

But, as you say, public support is at a 53 percent, which is a five-decade low.

When you dig into those numbers, you see some very interesting facts, including that younger generations, people age 18 to 43, the majority of those younger people now oppose the death penalty.

And even among people who support the death penalty, that 53 percent, I think there's growing discomfort with the execution of people with severe mental impairments or who are suffering from brain damage and the long-term effects of trauma and violence, like Mr. Sigmon.

AMNA NAWAZ: We saw, within days of him taking office, President Trump directed the U.S. attorney general to pursue the death penalty for, as he put it, all crimes of a severity demanding its use.

He's also encouraged more use of capital punishment at the state level.

Is that directive, that guidance, is that having an impact, and could it down the line?

ROBIN MAHER: Well, I think President Trump has made no secret of his enthusiasm for the death penalty, but his influence in the states is going to be pretty limited.

Decisions will still be made by local juries, who have been increasingly reluctant to sentence people to death over the past few years, and also by local elected officials who may schedule executions for their own reasons.

But I don't think even President Trump's enthusiasm will reverse the decades of long-term trends that show a dramatic reduction in support for and use of the death penalty.

AMNA NAWAZ: Robin Maher, executive director of the nonpartisan Death Penalty Information Center, thank you for joining us tonight.

ROBIN MAHER: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: President Trump's trade war is in the spotlight this week, with the back-and-forth causing tension for global markets.

On that and more of the week's news, we turn now to the analysis of Capehart and Ponnuru.

That's Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for "The Washington Post," and Ramesh Ponnuru, editor for "The National Review."

David Brooks is away this evening.

It's good to see you gentlemen.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Geoff.

RAMESH PONNURU, Senior Editor, "The National Review": Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: So, from the indiscriminate firings of federal workers to the now on-again/off-again tariff plan, confusion has been a real feature of this second Trump term.

Jonathan, let's talk about the tariffs first, because that has been the story of the week.

What stands out to you about the degree to which the tariff reversals and delays have really injected chaos into the economy and the financial markets?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, that's what I was going to point out.

This on-again/off-again, yes, no pause, no, we're a go, no, we're not, I don't cover business, but I have been following business for a long time, and I have long heard that business loves certainty.

And what the president has done since his inauguration and definitely this week is inject an amount of uncertainty into the economy, into business, that we have seen wild gyrations of the stock market.

And one of the reasons I think the president backed away a couple of times from these tariffs is that the market was tanking.

And even though he said in the Oval Office, I'm not paying attention to the markets, we have been covering him long enough to know that he absolutely watches the market.

He absolutely takes phone calls from Fortune 500 and from Wall Street leaders, telling him, like, hey, you have got to do something about this.

And until the president decides that he's actually going to pull the trigger on these tariffs, I think we're going to go through weeks like this for a while.

GEOFF BENNETT: And Donald Trump has been a fan of tariffs dating back to the '80s.

So why not now have a concrete plan?

Why this hasty rollout, where things have to be reversed after the fact?

Or is the chaos and the unpredictability, is that the point?

RAMESH PONNURU: Well, I think that a certain degree of impulsiveness may be more central to Trump than any particular conviction, even one as deep-rooted as his love of tariffs, which he continues to say is a beautiful word.

Over the last six weeks, I have read dozens of references in the commentary to energy in the executive, how energetic the new administration is being.

Energy in the executive is a phrase that comes from Hamilton, Federalist Papers No.

70.

He says, it's essential.

Why is it essential?

For the steady administration of the laws.

I don't think that's what we're seeing here.

I think we're seeing the very opposite of that.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, meantime, President Trump said yesterday that the next phase of his plan to cut the federal work force would be conducted, he says, with a scalpel, rather than a hatchet, in what appears to be a step aimed at restraining Elon Musk.

We will see what comes of it.

But The New York Times has this incredible reporting on a Cabinet meeting, where the Cabinet secretaries' frustration seems to have boiled over.

And it includes this exchange with Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy.

It says: "Mr. Duffy said the young staff of Mr. Musk's team was trying to lay off air traffic controllers.

'What am I supposed to do?'

Mr. Duffy said.

'I have multiple plane crashes to deal with now, and your people want me to fire air traffic controllers?'

Mr. Musk told Mr. Duffy that his assertion was a lie.

Mr. Duffy insisted it was not.

He had heard it from them directly."

This suggests that it's not just Democrats who are concerned about the speed and intensity of these cuts.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: What's interesting about this story is that, in some ways, it gives me a level of relief that on the surface they seem to be lockstep with the president, lockstep with Elon Musk, but, behind the scenes, they are doing the business of governing.

Elon Musk is an unelected person who is wielding a wrecking ball through the federal government, and air traffic controllers, the people who are safeguarding the nuclear stockpile, researching bird flu.

There's no nuance.

There's no scalpel here.

And I think it's too late for the president to say, oh, please go with the scalpel.

How can you use a scalpel on an organization that's been ripped to shreds?

GEOFF BENNETT: Here's what doesn't make sense to me about this, the way the administration is slashing government.

We know that Donald Trump seems to relish punishing people who don't support him.

But, with these cuts, he's targeting his supporters.

I mean, he wants to slash the work force at the VA, which employs a lot of veterans.

Donald Trump won the veteran vote by a wide margin, something like 60 percent.

He wants to get rid of the Education Department, which would hurt red states because red states get far more education funding from the federal government than do blue states.

These decisions, these actions don't seem politically aligned in many ways.

RAMESH PONNURU: Right.

But I also think that some of it is government-cutting theater.

So if you look closely at the Department of Education proposals that Republicans, including Trump and Secretary of Education Linda McMahon, have talked about, they don't actually get rid of the programs.

They just shuffle them to different parts of the federal bureaucracy.

You can say, well, we no longer have a department, we no longer have a building called the Department of Education, but everything is still there.

And I think, in some ways, DOGE is a way of pretending that you're cutting government, while you're not actually doing any of the things that it would actually take to cut the deficit.

And you're seeing pushback now from Congress also.

Congress wants to be in on the action.

On Wednesday, Musk met with senators, and they said, these cuts have to go through Congress first.

They have to have a constitutional form.

That's the only way they're going to make any lasting change.

But the chasm right now is between what they can accomplish and what Musk and Trump keep talking about.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I'm sort of leaping on your saying that this is cutting theater and pretending to cut the government.

But tell that to the thousands of government workers who have lost their jobs or who have lost their jobs and been told they're reinstated because suddenly someone realizes, oh, this person who we thought was not essential is actually essential.

This theater is having a real-life impact.

RAMESH PONNURU: Absolutely.

You're going to have the most disruption for the least in savings, Right?

You may get -- some people are going to lose their jobs.

Some of them will get reinstated in the legal process.

But even if they don't, we're not going to see a balanced budget, which is what Trump is talking about.

GEOFF BENNETT: If you look internationally, though, as Donald Trump seeks to downgrade the transatlantic alliance that has kept this world safe for the past 80 years, he has set off this unprecedented rearmament among NATO allies, which is something that a number of presidents have tried to do to get Europe to care about and pay for their security as much as the U.S. does.

Did the chaos, did the unpredictability in that sense work, Jonathan?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Sure, it worked.

They're going to spend more money on their own defense.

But why?

Because they can no longer depend on the United States to protect them if Russia rolls over into the Baltic states, if Russia rolls over into Poland, if the United States doesn't satisfy Article 5, which is an attack on one NATO member, is an attack on all.

I view their comments as, we don't know the United States anymore.

We certainly don't know the United States under President Trump.

And we need to safeguard our own security from him.

That's the way I read it.

RAMESH PONNURU: Well, I mean, I think the U.S. security guarantee has been something that Europeans have relied on.

And, unfortunately, that has led them to underinvest in their own defense.

I understand the impulse among a lot of Americans to get the U.S. to -- and Europe to rebalance these commitments.

What I don't see from the administration, what I have never really seen from Trump is any acknowledgement that NATO is the most successful alliance in history and that it still serves an important role in keeping the peace in Europe and around the globe.

GEOFF BENNETT: In the time that remains, let's talk about Gavin Newsom, shall we?

Because the California governor, he's broken with many elected Democrats by saying he thinks it's deeply unfair to allow transgender women and girls to compete in female sports.

Take a listen to what he said in this podcast.

CHARLIE KIRK, Founder, Turning Point Usa: Would you say no men in female sports?

GOV.

GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Well, I think it's an issue of fairness.

I completely agree with you on that.

It is an issue of fairness.

It's deeply unfair.

GEOFF BENNETT: So this is coming amid a debate among Democrats about, how much did cultural factors play a role in their huge defeat in November and how do they address it?

How does this strike, Jonathan?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, look, Governor Newsom is somebody whose credentials in LGBTQ rights were cemented 21 years ago, when he, against the advice of every Democrat in the country, issued marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

So this is not a question of whether he has thrown the community under the bus after two decades.

But what this shows is, and what I wished he had done, because I actually listened to the podcast and this entire section.

And he kept talking about fairness, which I get, but he didn't talk more fully about, what exactly do you mean?

In the conversation with Charlie Kirk, I mean, the way he says no men in female sports, just the way he talks about that, we're not talking about men in drag pretending to be women in sports.

We're talking about trans women, trans girls.

But what I really like and what I loved about this segment on trans athletes with Dr. Bradley Anawalt, he puts it -- he says it perfectly.

This is -- that there's a tension here between fairness and allowing people who want to play sports to play sports.

What we need to do is, as Americans, and certainly elected officials, have a more nuanced and thoughtful conversation.

This is not a black-and-white issue.

This is something that requires a lot of thoughtful -- a lot of thoughtful conversation led by scientists, led by doctors, led by people who actually know something about this.

And the last thing I will say is, I -- look, I'm an out gay man.

I came up during the 1980s, when there was the AIDS epidemic and people were out in the streets saying, hey, we are here.

"Will & Grace" comes along, and suddenly there's a cultural change, a change in the country in how they viewed LGBTQ folks.

We need to have that same kind of cultural conversation when it comes to the T, one that is nuanced and thoughtful, and not sort of bombastic in the way that Charlie Kirk talks about.

GEOFF BENNETT: We will have to leave it there.

I'm so sorry.

We're out of time.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Sorry.

(LAUGHTER) GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan Capehart.

We will have you back, and we will get you to weigh in.

Thanks for your time.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Geoff.

RAMESH PONNURU: Thanks.

AMNA NAWAZ: Punk music is known for its raw, aggressive sound, its edgy fashion and its mosh pits.

It's also long been known for being predominantly white.

That's changed a lot in recent years.

And resurfaced music from its earliest days underscores that punk has always been influenced and shaped by Black artists as well.

Stephanie Sy has this story for our arts and culture series, Canvas.

MAN: We were all convinced that we had a sound that no other rock 'n' roll band had at that time.

STEPHANIE SY: That time was 1971.

And three brothers from Detroit, David, Dannis and Bobby Hackney, started playing rock 'n' roll.

They were inspired by bands like The Who and Alice Cooper, but their sound had a different edge and reason behind it.

DANNIS HACKNEY, Musician: In rock 'n' roll, the more times people laugh at you, the more times people reject you, the more times, it builds up in anger.

STEPHANIE SY: Dannis played the drums.

DANNIS HACKNEY: But the only way we would take out our anger is through the music.

And I guess that's what made the music louder and faster.

STEPHANIE SY: The rejection, they say, came from an industry that didn't like the name of their band.

Even though later punk bands had names like the Dead Boys and The Damned, the name Death turned off major record labels.

BOBBY HACKNEY, Musician: David said, yes, why don't we call it Death?

He had such a conviction about it that we didn't have no choice but to get on board.

And when we did get on board, we were all in.

STEPHANIE SY: Bobby was the lead singer and bassist.

BOBBY HACKNEY: We got Death shirts printed up.

We were Death.

STEPHANIE SY: In more recent years, musicians, writers and critics have recognized the music Death was playing as the predecessor to punk.

BOBBY HACKNEY: Back in those days, if you called somebody a punk, you got one of two things.

You got either punched in the mouth or it started a fight.

STEPHANIE SY: Death recorded a seven-song album in 1975, but were unable to secure a record deal that year, and the band never played live.

They eventually dissolved in the late '70s.

URIAN HACKNEY, Son of Bobby Hackney: That's the problem with being ahead of your time.

STEPHANIE SY: Bobby's youngest son, Urian Hackney, grew up listening to punk rock, oblivious to his dad and uncle's pioneering pre-punk band.

URIAN HACKNEY: No one really accepted them for what they were trying to do.

So I understand why he wouldn't tell us about it because it was kind of like a moment of, like, them coming so close to this thing and then not grabbing the ball.

STEPHANIE SY: But a small number of promo records with two Death songs eventually made their way into the hands of record collectors and deejays.

And Death's music had found a receptive new audience.

Their album was finally released in 2009 on Drag City Records, 34 years after it was recorded.

RAEGHAN BUCHANAN, Author, "The Secret History of Black Punk": There were Black punk rockers in the story of punk rock at every turn.

We have always been there.

STEPHANIE SY: Raeghan Buchanan has been listening to punk music since she was a kid.

She began playing in bands in her early 20s, but sometimes felt alienated as a Black artist in the mostly white punk scene.

The better-known Black punk band Bad Brains was already in her rotation.

But it was years before she learned about the more obscure Black artists who developed the genre.

RAEGHAN BUCHANAN: When I found out about Pure Hell, I was actually, like, upset and, like, angry.

This was a band that had nobody had ever mentioned to me and I had never heard.

How could this had never come up?

MAN: This song is called "Noise Addiction."

KENNY "STINKER" GORDON, Musician: We were musicians in Philadelphia from the same neighborhood and we were -- basically had the same interest in music.

STEPHANIE SY: Around the time Death formed in Detroit, Kenny "Stinker" Gordon moved with his friends to New York City, a haven for America's budding punk scene.

KENNY "STINKER" GORDON: The younger people were just starting to want to create their own style of music.

And in New York, you saw people like the Talking Heads and The B-52's and The Ramones.

STEPHANIE SY: But while those bands released albums and became the face of punk, Pure Hell faded.

After a dispute, their manager refused to release their only album recorded in 1978.

KENNY "STINKER" GORDON: A lot of people say they got ripped off.

These guys were -- the original guys had gotten written off, and that's because you didn't have an album or record that was out there that was in the mainstream.

STEPHANIE SY: That is, until their music and photos of their classic punk aesthetic resurfaced online.

KENNY "STINKER" GORDON: People started to find out who we were.

We were elated.

STEPHANIE SY: Legendary punk musician Henry Rollins released a Pure Hell single on his label in 2017.

For Buchanan, who works as an illustrator, discovering Pure Hell was only the beginning.

RAEGHAN BUCHANAN: This kind of really pushed me to start really searching for other bands that I would like that were Black.

And I just kept finding so many.

This is Pure Hell, my faves.

STEPHANIE SY: Her discoveries culminated in "The Secret History of Black Punk," a comic she created profiling Black punk artists, like Poly Styrene from the X-Ray Spex, Pat Smear of The Germs, and musician and filmmaker Don Letts.

She also started a festival, one of a dozen across the world celebrating newer Black and brown punk artists, like Soul Glo, a hardcore punk band from Philadelphia, and Special Interest, a charismatic Black-led band from New Orleans.

ALLI LOGOUT, Musician: There has been just such a big shift just within the last decade.

Alli Logout is the lead singer of Special Interest.

ALLI LOGOUT: Now I feel like I see so many young Black and brown people at punk shows.

I think that it has really crossed over and is speaking - - speaking to people in a different way.

STEPHANIE SY: Of these new bands, there's one that hearkens back to punk's earliest days.

URIAN HACKNEY: Death never played a live show before, so he wanted to, like, show people that this music exists.

MAN: We are Rough Francis.

STEPHANIE SY: Bobby Hackney's sons, musicians in their own right, formed a band, Rough Francis, to play Death's catalogue front to back.

While they say the renewed interest is exciting, for Bobby and Dannis Hackney, Death was never just about the fame.

BOBBY HACKNEY: Even though we never made it, even though we never had a hit record, I will cherish between 1973 and 1976 as the best rock 'n' roll years of our lives.

STEPHANIE SY: David Hackney, who founded Death, died in 2000, but Bobby and Dannis are still making music together.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Stephanie Sy.

AMNA NAWAZ: And we will be back shortly.

But, first, take a moment to hear from your local PBS station.

GEOFF BENNETT: It's a chance to offer your support, which helps to keep programs like this one on the air.

AMNA NAWAZ: For those of you staying with us, now an encore report about the power of determination and turning grief into a force for good.

Nineteen female university students from Afghanistan whose educations were cut short by the Taliban have been given the chance to fulfill their dreams in Scotland.

GEOFF BENNETT: They're all aiming to be doctors.

And they have been given places at Scottish medical schools.

As special correspondent Malcolm Brabant reports, the program is the legacy of a young Scottish aid worker killed in tragic circumstances in Afghanistan 14 years ago.

MALCOLM BRABANT: St. Andrews is the home of Scotland's most prestigious university.

For trainee doctor Banin Sultani, it's worlds away from planet Taliban.

BANIN SULTANI, Medical Student: I love Scotland.

The people are so friendly.

I love the people, because their attitude is so much different.

They're open-minded.

I really love it.

MALCOLM BRABANT: How do you feel about the freedom you have in Scotland, the freedom to be a woman?

BANIN SULTANI: Yes.

Actually, the freedom is something that existed in the soul of every human.

And I think here is that opportunity.

We can use from the freedom that every single human has.

And here is the place I can use it.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Fifteen miles north, Dundee's medical school has given Hajera Safi a second chance to become a doctor.

She was two years away from qualifying when the Taliban canceled her studies.

HAJERA SAFI, Medical Student: Of course, it's very heartbreaking and sad that you are stopped from going to university or going to give your exam.

It's like you're taking a basic human right from someone, and just like someone is breathing and just someone is eating something.

You are taking that from them.

How can they be surviving in that environment then?

MALCOLM BRABANT: I'm on a ferry from the Northwestern Scottish mainland going to the island of Lewis, which is part of the Hebrides archipelago.

It's one of the most remote places in the United Kingdom.

My journey, of course, is nothing compared to that of the Afghan students.

JOHN NORGROVE, Linda Norgrove Foundation: Is that her on top of the tank?

LORNA NORGROVE, Linda Norgrove Foundation: Yes.

Yes.

JOHN NORGROVE: I haven't seen that one before.

MALCOLM BRABANT: After their daughter Linda was killed in Afghanistan in 2010, John and Lorna Norgrove channeled their grief into a force for good by creating a nonprofit in her name.

Linda Norgrove was kidnapped by the Taliban and died in a grenade blast when a rescue attempt by American special forces went wrong.

She lies in a simple grave overlooking a bay where as a child she rode horses with her younger sister, Sofie.

LORNA NORGROVE: It wasn't our daughter that the Taliban were looking for that day.

It was actually her boss.

Linda was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think you have got to forgive.

It wouldn't have done us any good to blame and to go down that route.

It was much better for us to do something a bit positive and to try and do something she would have approved of and which would help people in Afghanistan.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Do you think that you will ever be able to go back to Afghanistan to practice medicine, or do you think that you will forever be in exile because you are a woman?

HAJERA SAFI: Well, we all have a hope, because that's something I believe in.

And we all hope for the better.

Of course, I want to go back and serve my people.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Under pressure from the Linda Norgrove Foundation, the Scottish government amended education legislation to enable the Afghan students to receive free tuition and cost of living support.

Ellie Hothersall-Davis is head of undergraduate medicine.

How much do you hope that the Taliban is actually watching what is happening here to perhaps learn that women are worth educating?

ELLIE HOTHERSALL-DAVIS, School of Medicine, University of Dundee: I really hope that they see the value in educating women.

I think to undermine that value is so counterproductive and will lead to everybody suffering.

You need equality in education, equality in health care to look after everybody.

MALCOLM BRABANT: Dr. Panna Muqit is a senior lecturer and clinical mentor at St. Andrews Medical School.

She says the Taliban's interpretation of Islam is wrong.

DR PANNA MUQIT, School of Medicine, University of St. Andrews: I think it's vital that women are educated.

And Islam has always taught that a woman ought to be highly educated because she effectively is taking care of the next generation, with her husband, of course, but she plays a primary role.

And to have an uneducated woman in a household is not a good thing and definitely not something that's celebrated by Islam, if you study the religion properly, not through the interpretation of the Taliban.

MALCOLM BRABANT: How determined are you to become a doctor?

What sort of drive and ambition do you have?

BANIN SULTANI: Actually, we are always asked that, when you finish your medicine, do you supposed to go to your own country or be here?

But I want to say, like, my aim is to serve the world, not -- or serve the humanity, not the specific people in Afghanistan or other countries.

MALCOLM BRABANT: While the Norgroves have attained serenity and joy from their charity work, they're fueled by the injustice of the Taliban regime.

LORNA NORGROVE: I am angry because I can't -- I just can't understand their way of thinking.

I just feel that the Taliban need women doctors.

They don't want their women folk seen by men, male doctors, so perhaps a lot of women are going untreated.

I know a lot of women are going untreated, because there aren't the women doctors about.

So why don't they let women study to become doctors?

I just cannot get my head round that.

JOHN NORGROVE: We see lots of people in Afghanistan who are here having an absolutely awful time, and you have the capability of changing their life.

And that's a really good feeling.

So, that's what it comes down to at the end of the day.

MALCOLM BRABANT: And the love the Norgroves have extended has created an unbreakable bond.

BANIN SULTANI: I really thank them, and I hope to be able to do something to just compensate it for them.

They are so kind.

And I think, like, we are having a spiritual connection.

Like, we are far from our fathers and mothers, but we have another father and mother here.

We are really connected with them.

MALCOLM BRABANT: The 19 Afghan students will continue to enjoy the support of the Norgrove Foundation, but the nonprofit's main focus remains women and children facing draconian restrictions far across the water in Afghanistan.

GEOFF BENNETT: And an update now to a story we broadcast last summer.

Special correspondent Willem Marx and videographer Ed Kiernan reported from the remote Pacific island nation of Papua New Guinea on a new industry, deep-sea mining.

A vessel called the MV Coco had begun an industrial-scale test of a new mining technology a mile beneath the surface, but local communities told the "News Hour" of their concerns about its potential impact on local fisheries.

Government officials in Papua New Guinea have confirmed this week that the three reports have in large part prompted authorities there to rethink the country's approach to this controversial industry.

And, late last month, the government introduced new legislation seeking to formally regulate deep-sea mining in its waters for the first time.

AMNA NAWAZ: And you can find those three stories from Papua New Guinea and much more online, including our digital weekly show with analysis of President Trump's marathon address to Congress this week and a deeper look into Elon Musk's role in the Trump administration.

That is on our YouTube page.

GEOFF BENNETT: Be sure to watch "Washington Week With The Atlantic" tonight on PBS for analysis of the fallout from President Trump's extreme shifts in policy.

AMNA NAWAZ: And on "PBS News Weekend": how fears of arrests by ICE agents are forcing some immigrant parents to keep their kids home from school.

And that is the "News Hour" for tonight.

I'm Amna Nawaz.

GEOFF BENNETT: And I'm Geoff Bennett.

For all of us here at the "PBS News Hour," thanks for spending part of your evening with us and have a great weekend.