Frederica Freyberg:
Hundreds of millions of dollars in the state budget go to higher education, and with little coordination between the UW and technical college systems we are now at a crossroads. That's according to Tommy Thompson, former governor and former UW System president. He joins me now, and thanks very much for being here.

Tommy Thompson:
Frederica, it's a pleasure to be with you. It always is. I love your program. I love what you do, and thank you very much for having me on your program.

Frederica Freyberg:
Thank you. So with 13 two-year UW campuses, and 16 main technical colleges in Wisconsin, what are the inefficiencies in that?

Tommy Thompson:
Well, that's only part of the problem what you've just outlined. When you take a look at the University of Wisconsin, it's got 13 campuses, but it also has 13 two-year campuses, so it's got 26, and the vocational school has got 16 main campuses, but 54 other branch campuses. So you put 'em all together and you got 80 institutions, 80 places out there that teach higher education and vocational education. There's no cooperation. There's really no consideration of one to the other. They have two different systems. One is funded by the taxpayers of the state. One is funded by the property taxpayers, and the coordination is very small. The fact of the matter is is the population is going down, and then by 2026 is a cliff and nobody is planning what are we gonna do? And that's what I've been advocating for some time. There needs to be a blue-ribbon task force to study all this because we got over duplication. We got too many buildings, too much education for the amount of students we have, and we need to do something about it. Better to do it now in an impartial and systematic smart way than waiting 'til 2026 and say, oh, my Lord, what do we do?

Frederica Freyberg:
Well, the writing has been on the wall for years in terms of these demographic shifts in enrollment. Now West Bend wants to consolidate UW-Washington County and Moraine Park Tech College. Is it your sense the rest of the two-year UW campuses should merge with tech campuses?

Tommy Thompson:
Not necessarily, but they should come together and decide which one is the strongest. One should be a tech school maybe. They should be all community colleges, I think. I think they should come together, be community colleges, and teach multiple vocational education, and baccalaureate degrees, and allow the students to be able to choose the best course for themselves and get more students to graduate. It's sort of a deplorable record to get all these students into college and they don't finish, both at the university and even more so at the vocational education. Does that make any sense? It doesn't make any sense to me. And it doesn't help the students. It doesn't help the workers' productivity, or the workers' graduation rates in the state of Wisconsin. And that's what I've been saying for so long. We got over duplication. We have some vocational schools in two-year campuses sharing the same parking lot, the same classrooms, and yet they have two different systems. Does that make any sense to anybody when the declining population and both systems are vying for that student? Why don't we put all of these into a community college and put 'em in and decide how many we really need.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about the kind of localized sense of pride and ownership of having a UW campus for students who can go on to get their four-year degree at the corresponding campus?

Tommy Thompson:
It's wonderful, it's wonderful, and the problem is you can't afford it. And that's what's happening in Richland Center. Richland Center is being closed down. Now the county of Richland, which is a poor county, that's gotta take care of the buildings and they're not gonna have classes next year. And so the people in Richland Center are very upset, but you'll have a vocational school at Fennimore, which is doing very well. Wouldn't it make sense, I mean, just common sense to say why don't they come together, and have courses so that the students can go and have some courses at the Richland Center so those buildings are being utilized and make those both into a community college. Down in West Bend they had the university is declining in population, but the vocational school is doing well. And so, Josh Schoemann, the county exec came up with a brilliant idea. Let's see what we can do, study and put 'em together. That's what has to happen, but we should be doing this statewide. We shouldn't wait 'til this cataclysmic decline is coming in 2026, and everybody is saying why didn't we do something? Time is now. It was yesterday, but today let's get started and not waste anymore time.

Frederica Freyberg:
Ten of the UW systems 13 campuses expect to face a combined $60 million deficit by next year. This is exactly what you're talking about. Are you being heard? Is your message being heard?

Tommy Thompson:
No. I think people are afraid to take the first step. It always is. It requires leadership, but the problem is it's gonna come, and 2026 is right around the corner, and that's when the cliff hits. In the declining population those 10 universities are gonna get hurt even more with declining student populations. And so I think the best thing to do is let's take a look at higher education in this state. We have two funding source. One system is by the property taxes. One is by the general property taxpayer through sales tax and income taxes. That doesn't make any sense. And we should coordinate and develop a system, and these cities and villages that want campuses to have some kind of a community college and set it up for the student, not for the professors, but for the students, so the students can get a cheaper education, and one in which they're gonna go into and be able to graduate from and go into the workplace, and do well in the state of Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about the idea that Wisconsin's public university system is among the worst funded in the nation according to a recent report? How does that sit with you, a champion of the UW and its former president?

Tommy Thompson:
I love the university and I think the university, you know, the first thing the university's gotta learn to get along with the legislature. I mean, when the legislature is gonna be making the decisions on how much revenue it seems to me you need to be spending more time from Bascom Hill down in Capitol, and talking to the legislatures and finding out what they want. It was quite obvious that Robin Vos, the speaker, who by the way I think does a good job. And he was my first student regent appointee. Did you know that?

Frederica Freyberg:
Frederica: I did.

Tommy Thompson:
Yeah, and he loves the university, but he thinks that they're getting off track. And there should have been a way to settle down and be able to come up with some decisions on diversity, equity and inclusion. And nobody really spent the time to cultivate what the legislature wanted to do. And as a result of that, they got penalized because they wouldn't really cooperate or compromise. You gotta compromise with this business.

Frederica Freyberg:
So what do you think of the legislative budget writers cutting $32 million from the UW in targeting its diversity, equity and inclusion offices?

Tommy Thompson:
Well, I think that when you take a look at the affirmative action opinion that came out of Supreme Court this week it's obvious that maybe the university has gotta come to grips with the fact that they're gonna have to work with the legislature. I'm not saying one side is right and the other side is wrong, but I'm saying cooperation and leadership and discussion is what is needed. And I don't think there's enough of that.

Frederica Freyberg:
As the former president of the System what do you think of the value of those DEI offices?

Tommy Thompson:
When you look at how many. I think the university has got probably too many positions. And I think the legislature's saying, yes, you got too many positions, and you gotta be taking care of the students in Wisconsin as well. We gotta make sure that the university is well-funded. We gotta make sure that the university is able to recruit enough students. We gotta make sure the university is planning ahead and looking at these problems and finding ways to solve them. And they gotta learn to work with the legislature. If they don't do that the same thing is gonna continue to happen. And I don't want that to happen. I want us to have a strong university. I want a great relationship with the legislature and the governor, and I wanna make sure that they get along and develop plans for the future. Right now nobody is looking ahead to what's gonna happen in 2025 and 2026. I think that's a mistake. And I think the legislature is looking ahead and saying maybe we should do something, but they don't have the leadership. I mean, they have the leadership, but they don't have, I think, any reason to do that right now. And I want somebody to say, hey, wait a minute we got problems now. We're gonna have more problems tomorrow, so let's at least study and come up with a plan. And if you come up with a comprehensive plan I think you're gonna find Robin Vos and Devin LeMahieu very, very supportive.

Frederica Freyberg:
Who do you think should take the charge?

Tommy Thompson:
I think it's gotta be the Board of Regents, the president and the governor. They're the ones that have the authority to set it up, and make an independent study. I think we should go and sit down with the vocational school and the University of Wisconsin two-year campuses and come up with ways on how we could turn 'em into community colleges, and be able to meet the needs of Wisconsin. Wisconsin has gotta have more graduates and more students prepared to work, more students educated in the jobs that we have and are going. Wisconsin is growing and we don't have the expertise really to pilot the programs and the jobs that are out there.

Frederica Freyberg:
Well, on that score, what about the legislature not wanting to put money into the UW-Madison Engineering School, which was the number one priority? Was it when you were here?

Tommy Thompson:
It was my number one priority.

Frederica Freyberg:
So what's your reaction to that?

Tommy Thompson:
I think we still got a chance. I'm still working. The engineering school has got to be built. The engineering school is absolutely necessary for Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
And you think that money should come from state coffers? The part that they're not raising?

Tommy Thompson:
It's gotta come from the building program, yes, but I think, you know, the legislature says I'm trying to get the attention of the university and doesn't think they're getting it. And so I'm saying let's forget about who's right or who's wrong. Let's get off Bascom Hill, walk down State Street. and sit down and have coffee with the leadership and the legislators and work on a plan. I don't think the university has done that and that's what they need to do. I did that when I was president.

Frederica Freyberg:
You think there's a chance still that there will be money from the state for the UW-Madison Engineering School?

Tommy Thompson:
I'm counting on it.

Frederica Freyberg:
We'll mark your word.

Tommy Thompson:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
Tommy Thompson, thanks very much.

Tommy Thompson:
My pleasure.