Frederica Freyberg:
I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” Attorney General Josh Kaul discusses lame duck court cases and a multistate opioid investigation. WPR’s Laurel White joins us from the capitol, where she’s covering the politics of the lame duck court battle. Then to Antigo, where that district’s school superintendent says it’s time to start recruiting retired teachers back into the classroom. And Zac Schultz previews next Tuesday’s election for the state Supreme Court. It’s “Here & Now” for March 29.

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Frederica Freyberg:
A first look tonight at the fast moving court fight over the Legislature’s lame duck legislation. This week, a Wisconsin appeals court put on hold an earlier ruling out of Dane County that threw out the laws passed in the waning days of Governor Scott Walker’s administration, laws that limited Governor Tony Evers and Attorney General Josh Kaul’s authority. Republican majority leaders had this to say about the stay in the court of appeals pending its consideration of the case, “Last week’s circuit court ruling created a constitutional crisis, established law says that the court cannot tell the Legislature how to set its rules. Extraordinary sessions have been called for decades. Today the rule of law has prevailed. Independent judges have put a Dane County ruling on hold that was based on politics, not the law,” they said. For its part, the Evers Administration said this, “The only victory today is for the $500-per-hour Chicago lawyers getting paid by taxpayers to defend the Republican attack on our Constitution. Republicans created this chaos and have doubled down on their defending their illegal attack on our Constitution instead of working with the governor to move forward.” A second Dane County court ruling overturning some of the lame duck legislation was not addressed by the appeals court. We will dig in to what both sides are calling chaos created by the other in a few minutes from the capitol, but first, we are joined by Attorney General Josh Kaul, who this week announced Wisconsin will work with other states to investigate opioid distributors, calling the opioid epidemic the state’s most significant public safety challenge. He joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Josh Kaul:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
First out of the gates, we just wanted to ask your reaction to the court action this week on that lame duck legislation.

Josh Kaul:
Yeah, well, there was a second ruling as you know recently that found that some parts of the extraordinary session legislation are unconstitutional, and I think that’s right. There are aspects of that legislation that I think clearly levitate the separation of powers that’s required by Wisconsin’s Constitution. They, for example, take some litigation authority away from the attorney general’s office and give oversight to the Legislature. That to me is clearly an executive branch function and so I was not surprised to see that those portions of the legislation found unconstitutional.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about the action that the appeals court took?

Josh Kaul:
So that action has stopped the first of the two rulings from going into effect, but we still have this other ruling which relates to several aspects of that legislation, so because of that, we are still currently able to resolve cases at the Department of Justice without having that legislative committee involved.

Frederica Freyberg:
Where does the appeals court stay put Wisconsin’s action to remove itself from that ACA lawsuit?

Josh Kaul:
Because there is the second order, it doesn’t impact that because the second order is still in effect right now. As you indicated, we have filed to withdraw the state of Wisconsin from the lawsuit that’s seeking to invalidate the Affordable Care Act and that motion is pending right now.

Frederica Freyberg:
What about what the stay means for the 82 appointments that Governor Evers rescinded after that first circuit court ruling?

Josh Kaul:
So I will let the governor’s office and the Legislature weigh in on that dispute between them, but I will say that this chaos that we’re seeing is not surprising. This is a direct result of the extraordinary session legislation. We have had a system of government that’s been in place for a very long time in the state of Wisconsin. And in December, that was upended, and one of the clear products at the time and I think we’re seeing it play out now is that there was going to be litigation and uncertainty as that litigation moved forward. That’s distracting us from the work that we should be doing which is working to address problems that Wisconsin faces.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to that, in regard to what you describe as the most significant public safety challenge in Wisconsin, the opioid epidemic, why did you decide to join this multistate investigation into opioid distributors?

Josh Kaul:
As you just mentioned, the opioid epidemic is the most significant public safety challenge we face. We have lost the lives of thousands of Wisconsinites to this epidemic. County budgets around the state have been strained. People across the state wake up either struggling with addiction or worrying about a loved one who is, and I think we need to take a multifaceted approach to responding to that epidemic. I think we need to work to prevent people from becoming addicted. I think we need to work to provide treatment to people who are addicted. But I also think we need accountability to the extent that companies or anybody else broke the law with conduct that contributed to the opioid epidemic. I think we need to look into that and if there were violations of the law, hold those companies accountable.

Frederica Freyberg:
So what will investigators specifically be looking at in regard to the distributors?

Josh Kaul:
So I can’t comment on the specifics of the investigation, but what I can say is that it was previously announced that Wisconsin was part of a multistate investigation into manufacturers of opioids. Other states previously announced that they were investigating the distributors as well, companies that distributed opioids to pharmacies around the country. We have announced that Wisconsin is part of that investigation, because by looking at the different companies that were involved in the manufacture and then the distribution of opioids, hopefully we can take a holistic look at what caused this problem because part of accountability from my perspective is making sure that we work with the goal of maximizing Wisconsin’s recovery if there was unlawful conduct, but also really getting to the root of what caused this so we have a clear understanding of what caused the opioid epidemic, and how we can prevent another epidemic like it from happening again in the future.

Frederica Freyberg:
At what stage is this investigation?

Josh Kaul:
So again, I can’t comment on the specifics of the investigation, but I believe that the investigations are moving forward appropriately. We are able to gather information through these investigations. You know, there’s certainly been some hope that there may be an opportunity to settle some of these cases but if there is not a settlement, litigation is certainly an option for the state of Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
How has the use and abuse of opioids including the really very deadly fentanyl ramped up in Wisconsin in recent years?

Josh Kaul:
So there’s a bit of good news you on the opioid epidemic here, which is that we’ve seen a decrease in opioid prescriptions, and that is part of what it’s going to take, I think, to work to prevent people from getting addicted in the long term. But one of the consequences with that, I think, is there are people who have shifted to illegal opioids, heroin, fentanyl, some people have started using meth, and I think that the use of those drugs has increased. We’ve seen a significant increase in fentanyl, for example, and those drugs are incredibly dangerous. Fentanyl is extremely powerful, and they can be responsible for a number of overdoses. And so one of the things we need to make sure we’re doing, I think, is in addition to working to reduce the over prescription of opioids, which I think we need to continue to do. We also need to make sure that if people are addicted to those drugs, even if they’re getting off those prescriptions, that we’re making sure that they have access to substance abuse treatment so they don’t just start using an illegal drug.

Frederica Freyberg:
Where is this fentanyl coming from?

Josh Kaul:
So fentanyl has been coming across the border, and into the country. What often happens with drugs coming to Wisconsin is we first see them coming in at the coasts and they work their way to the Midwest. But that’s part of what makes this so dangerous. It’s been manufactured abroad, the concentrations are very high, and it’s something that people have to be aware of because it can be laced in other drugs, and it itself is extremely dangerous. So there were plenty of reasons before for people to stay away from illegal drugs but the danger that fentanyl presents is certainly another powerful one.

Frederica Freyberg:
Briefly with less than a minute left, how much money are you seeking in your budget to address some of these issues?

Josh Kaul:
We’re seek funding for several different aspects of our budgets that are going to impact the effort to address the opioid epidemic. That includes funding for a division of criminal investigation, which can participate in significant intensive investigations. We’re also seeking funding for treatment and diversion programs so that people who are addicted are able to get the help they need. We’re also seeking funding for grants for community policing programs, so that hopefully we cannot only improve relationships between law enforcement officers and the communities where they work, but also hopefully get better intelligence that will help us identify significant drug traffickers and hopefully take out drug trafficking networks.

Frederica Freyberg:
Josh Kaul, thanks very much.

Josh Kaul:
Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
Is it chaos at the capitol? That’s what both sides of the fight over lame duck legislation are blaming on the other. In tonight’s capitol insight, we are joined by Wisconsin Public Radio reporter Laurel White from the capitol. Laurel thanks a lot for joining us.

Laurel White:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
So how chaotic do these dueling court rulings make laws that were in place, then not in place, then back in place again?

Laurel White:
It is pretty complicated and I think it’s mostly because these rulings are happening so close together. The first one we got was just about this time last week. Then we’ve had two big decisions come down this week as well. They all sort of overlap and interact with each other. And even beyond that, we have the governor’s office and lawmakers disagreeing about what the rulings actually mean and what sort of effect they have. Particularly on several dozen appointments that Governor Walker made right before he left office.

Frederica Freyberg:
So what have you learned about these appointments? Because I know, as you say, this has certainly been a point of contention between the Republican Legislature and the Evers Administration.

Laurel White:
It absolutely has. I think the biggest point of contention arguably. So these appointments, there are 82 of them, most of them are to volunteer boards and commissions. So the sort of professional oversight organizations that serve as advisory boards and evaluative boards of things like dentistry and physical therapy. The two big ones that most people are talking about are an appointment to the UW System Board of Regents, which is also a volunteer position, and then a paid position to the State Public Service Commission. And that one’s gotten even more press because actually the Walker appointee tried to show up to work this week and was turned away.

Frederica Freyberg:
And so she goes to work and says, “Well, I’m here for work,” and a security guard, I understand, and HR turn her away?

Laurel White:
Mm-hmm.

Frederica Freyberg:
This, to me, sounds a lot like testing and taunting. What is the expectation that we’re going to see more of this? Because actually, the Senate majority leader also just sent a letter to the governor. What was that about?

Laurel White:
So the Senate majority leader’s letter said that he believes the appointments that the governor tried to make this week to a number of these positions were in error. So the governor tried to reappoint actually 67 of the Walker appointees, sent those appointments to the Senate’s office because of course they require Senate confirmation and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said this morning, certainly you didn’t mean to send me these appointments. Governor Walker’s appointments are still in place because of the appellate court ruling. So it’s a very high profile back and forth with these public letters being released, the Public Service Commissioner being turned away from her job. It’s a very kind of public battle over who has the power to make these appointments.

Frederica Freyberg:
And this is nowhere near concluded, right? What are we still waiting for?

Laurel White:
So we’re waiting on a number of things. The second Dane County decision that just came down this week. Republican lawmakers say they’re planning to appeal that one as well. We’re waiting to see what appellate court that goes to. If that court issues a stay, similar to the stay that was issued this week. Of course that’s going to have a huge effect on the other lame duck laws not being in place anymore. We’ll look forward to the arguments on that and obviously both of these cases will be appealed after the appeal. So these are all going to end up at the State Supreme Court at some point.

Frederica Freyberg:
And you know, just this, anything else happening at the capitol this week or is it all this, all lame duck, all court cases around that?

Laurel White:
I feel like it’s all lame duck all the time at the capitol this week. We’ve had so much action in terms of these appeals, these rulings, these stays and injunctions, action on these appointments. I think that’s taken up a lot of the oxygen here in the capitol this week.

Frederica Freyberg:
And meanwhile, there is like this important work to be done there around the state budget and the fashioning of that from both sides. How do you think this bodes toward both sides coming together to hash that out if this is what they’re doing right now over the lame duck legislation?

Laurel White:
Well, it certainly speaks to the level of bipartisan cooperation that’s happening right now in the state capitol, kind of these high profile clashes over these appointments. We are going to get testimony next week from agency officials on the state budget so we have an important step for the state budget next week. I think it will be interesting to see what sort of rapport Republican lawmakers have with those Evers Administration officials as they’re asking them questions about the budget. We know that Republican lawmakers aren’t particularly thrilled with the governor’s budget. They think it’s too big, it’s too expensive, and certainly this conflict over appointments and over this lame duck session probably hasn’t sweetened their feelings towards the governor’s office.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. Laurel White, thanks very much for filling us in from the capitol.

Laurel White:
Absolutely.

Frederica Freyberg:
Wisconsin is in the midst of a critical shortage of teachers. Most especially in rural districts. The most recent stats on the shortage show that in 2017, there was a net loss of 1600 teachers in the state. That’s the difference between the number coming in to the profession and the number leaving it. In tonight’s closer look, a new proposal to try to remedy the lack of teachers that has one district administrator giving it the thumbs up. Julie Sprague leads the Antigo schools, a rural district in north central Wisconsin, and thanks very much for joining us.

Julie Sprague:
You’re welcome. I’m happy to be here.

Frederica Freyberg:
So a proposal in Governor Evers’ budget would allow you to hire retired teachers who could maintain their pensions and come back to the classroom. Do you feel like you would get a lot of takers on that?

Julie Sprague:
Well, I would hope we’d get some takers. I really believe that the best candidate should get the position, and if they’re hard to fill positions and we have retired educators interested, I would love for them to apply.

Frederica Freyberg:
Now you have described needing to fill more than a quarter of teaching positions in a year. Why so many?

Julie Sprague:
Well, I think it’s a number of reasons. You know, we lost, as you already mentioned, teaching candidates really across the nation, and with that, rural districts, like others, have difficulty paying teachers what they are really worth. And that and combined with wanting teachers to settle in a community, it has to be a community that’s right for their family. So I think really it’s a combination of factors.

Frederica Freyberg:
When you post a job for a teaching vacancy, how many applicants do you get?

Julie Sprague:
Well I can tell you, in the early 90s, we would have hundreds. However, that’s really significantly changed. We’re lucky to have about 10 for I would say a standard classroom position. There are harder to fill areas like special education and technical education and world languages.

Frederica Freyberg:
So that is just a giant difference from the early 90s. Hundreds to maybe 10. You talked a little bit in your previous answer about the difficulty perhaps of having people wanting to move to a rural location to raise their families, but what else is resulting in that kind of trend change?

Julie Sprague:
Well, I think the perception of teaching really took a hit after Act 10, but I firmly believe and I know many others agree with me that there’s no more noble profession than teaching. So those who give themselves to children and helping children fulfill their potential often don’t do it for the money. So really, it’s about finding the best candidate, the best fit, and hopefully offering our children what they deserve.

Frederica Freyberg:
Has your district had to extend emergency licenses to get teachers? Those licenses are given if a fully accredited teacher can’t be found in a hiring search?

Julie Sprague:
We have. The state actually has been accommodating with the teacher shortage and so we do offer provisional license. There are CESAs, our educational partners who have programs that welcome those with associate’s degrees or bachelor’s degrees from the private sector and they can train them then to earn a teaching license. So that’s really helped as well.

Frederica Freyberg:
Now is teacher pay in your district competitive with other districts? I know you spoke to the idea that teacher pay kind of everywhere is depressed, but what about your district compared to other districts? Because I understand teachers are now able and do kind of district-hop.

Julie Sprague:
They do. And it’s really a free market. So I would say we are as competitive as we can be right now, but our district certainly is not where we want to be.

Frederica Freyberg:
Do you end up kind of losing staff in that way where they get better offers, you know, across district lines?

Julie Sprague:
Yes, sometimes, but I wouldn’t say it’s terribly common yet. I know we’ve lost a few certainly, but again, we’re hoping that the complete package and what our district offers and the fulfillment one gets transcends within reason beyond the salary.

Frederica Freyberg:
As to allowing teachers to so called double dip, that is taking a pension and working in retirement, some lawmakers who passed that prohibition against it in 2013 say if you’re not retired anymore, you shouldn’t be collecting your retirement benefit. What’s your response to that?

Julie Sprague:
Well, I may have agreed at one point, before we had a teacher shortage. But if you have a candidate who’s willing to come in to a classroom and share expertise and effectiveness with students and that person is the best candidate, then I think we can no longer afford to turn our backs on so called double dipping.

Frederica Freyberg:
How does the shortage affect the education of students in your district and others?

Julie Sprague:
That’s just it. We do everything we can so that it does not adversely affect those kids. And I would say in general, we’re doing okay. I strongly believe that we have to put the best candidate in the classroom, and sometimes there’s not a lot of time to find that person. We have crises all the time with substitutes and others where we need a person in front of those kids not only to keep them safe and supervised but hopefully provide that facilitation that helps them grow as well.

Frederica Freyberg:
Julie Sprague, thanks very much for joining us from Wausau.

Julie Sprague:
Thank you. I appreciate it. My pleasure.

Frederica Freyberg:
Next Tuesday is the spring election. In the race for Wisconsin Supreme Court, voters will choose between two appeals court judges, Lisa Neubauer and Brian Hagedorn. They joined us on separate occasions earlier this year. Tonight, excerpts from those interviews allow a compare and contrast.

Zac Schultz:
Wisconsin Supreme Court races are still technically non-partisan. But in practice, they’ve become proxy elections for Democrats and Republicans. The political parties and sometimes the candidates themselves make it clear to voters which side they are on. In this election, Brian Hagedorn is supported by Republicans.

Brian Hagedorn:
I’m running for the Supreme Court because I believe we need a justice who’s going to defend the rule of law, uphold the Constitution and protect the public. By defending the rule of law, I mean that the job of a judge is to say what the law is and not what the judge thinks the law should be.

Zac Schultz:
Lisa Neubauer is supported by Democrats.

Lisa Neubauer:
I am running for the Supreme Court because I am fighting to protect an independent judiciary in our state. We have to have that true third branch that we all learned about in grade school civics, the independent, impartial, fair judiciary.

Zac Schultz:
Neubauer’s husband and daughter have been elected to office as Democrats. And Hagedorn was first appointed to the Court of Appeals by Republican Governor Scott Walker, after serving as his chief legal counsel. But both candidates say they will be independent voices on the court.

Brian Hagedorn:
There’s nothing implicitly or otherwise wrong with people having backgrounds in government service, as I have. I’ve not been, you know, elected to political office. I’ve not been a prolific political giver or anything along those lines.

Lisa Neubauer:
I have never given money to any political party or political candidate since I’ve been on the court, 11 years. And you can’t look at my decision-making over 11 years, and that’s literally thousands of cases, and say Lisa has, you know, any kind of an agenda, any kind of outcome in mind, any kind of ideology that drives her decision-making.

Zac Schultz:
Neubauer has the support of most judges while Hagedorn is endorsed by the conservatives on the Supreme Court and most of the sheriffs.

Lisa Neubauer:
I am so honored now to have the support of over 325 judges in this state. And that is judges from red counties, judges from blue counties. It is judges from, I think, over 62 counties in this state who trust me to continue to be the kind of judge I’ve been for 11 years, and that is fair, impartial, and independent.

Brian Hagedorn:
The judges that actually review our work are members of the Wisconsin Supreme Court. I have five justices supporting me. My opponent has none. I’m proud of the endorsements I have. Also the support of judges, district attorneys.

Zac Schultz:
Most of the attention in this race has been on Hagedorn’s personal beliefs. Blog posts from his time as a law student show him comparing same-sex marriage to beastiality and more recently, he and his wife created a private Christian school that bars LGBT students and teachers. He says as a judge, he does not treat gay and lesbian people differently.

Brian Hagedorn:
I’m not running to impose my moral religious views at all. My whole campaign is premised on the idea that my job as a judge is to say what the law is and not what I think the law should be. In fact, I am deeply committed to protecting everyone’s religious freedom. People don’t have to agree with me at all. In fact, I will defend people’s right to disagree with whatever personal views I may have. And I want to reiterate, I’m not running on my personal views. I never have.

Zac Schultz:
In our interview, Neubauer said voters will decide.

Lisa Neubauer:
I really think that there’s a lot of information out there now for voters to work with in order to decide who they trust to be fair, impartial and independent and that is going to be up to the voters to decide.

Frederica Freyberg:
For more on the state Supreme Court race and for other spring election coverage, go to WisconsinVote.org.
Now, this congressional update at the end of a week that saw the conclusion of the Mueller investigation. Wisconsin’s U.S. Senators took two very different positions upon the long-awaited release of the report. Republican Senator Ron Johnson said, “We should all be happy that after an extensive investigation, the Special Counsel did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government.” Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin took to Twitter this week writing, the Mueller report does not exonerate the president. She also called for the full report to be made available to the public.
Next week, we will preview a new WPT documentary, “Portraits from Rural Wisconsin,” explores the successes as well as the challenges of country life, especially the hardships that family-owned dairy farms are living. That’s next Friday night on “Here & Now.” I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided in part by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.