>> You have to play something written prior to 1930. >> You get eight minutes. >> And eight minutes only playing time per round. >> Or else they start subtracting points. >> You may not do a medley. >> You can't play patriotic songs. You're not allowed to play religious songs. >> "God Bless America" would be a double no-no. >> If you make the cut, the top ten -- on Sunday. >> Your scores are cumulative. The five highest of those scores would then move on to the final round. All three scores are added together. The highest score is your winner. >> Hi. Welcome to Director's Cut. I'm your host Pete Schwaba. That was a clip from The Entertainers, a documentary that follows six finalists as they vie for the title of greatest old-time piano player. I'm joined today by the film's co-directors, Miceal Zimmer and Nick Holle. Guys, welcome to Director's Cut. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's great to have you. Define old-time piano player. What exactly, it seems kind of vague. >> Do you want to do it? >> Yeah, I think an old-time-- What they considered old-time piano is probably ragtime or early 20th century music played on the piano, traditional jazz music, and I think, kind of, the type of music that people would play around their houses and around parlors, old-timey saloon songs and things like that. >> It's be great to have a parlor, wouldn't it? Are you guys both piano players? Do you both play piano? >> Not at all, no. I took a lesson for a year and I was terrible. >> That made you want to make a movie about piano playing. How did you find out about this contest? Like, that's a lot of rules to remember. It seems pretty intense, first of all. How did you even discover this contest? >> Well, actually a good friend of mine from high school, his name is Ethan Uslan. He's featured in the film. He's one of the stars. He was always a really talented piano player. He kind of found ragtime, and he found this contest. He started competing and he met everybody. He approached me and was like, hey, these are the most amazing people. They're doing this music that's great. You should come check it out. I was, like, that sounds great. Nick and I went to grad school together, and we decided to start filming. >> It was film-worthy, right? That's great. Do they win anything exactly? What is the grand prize if they win the contest? >> They do, the top five win a cash prize. >> Oh, okay. Because it doesn't seem like-- In listening to them talk, that they have a huge budget for the contest. I'm assuming everybody gets themselves there and uses out-of-pocket expenses. Talk a little bit about the passion in these piano players that they're willing to do that. >> Yeah, absolutely. It's like, the cash prizes they get is not necessarily, even for first prize-- I mean, I think it will cover their trip, but it's not huge. They really do it because they're so dedicated and passionate about this music that some people, or a lot of people I think it's fair to say, have forgotten about. But it's really sort of the first American pop music. It leads to jazz and R&B. You can kind of trace the whole thing back to this. It's actually really great to listen to. I mean when you're there, it's just like-- Yeah, it's pretty amazing. >> They're sort of carrying the torch really. Without these guys still playing these old Scott Joplin songs it would go away, right? They're kind of continuing the tradition. >> I mean, they love this music. They live and breathe it. Bill Edwards, who's also featured in the movie, has a parlor room. >> Wow. >> And so, I mean they're thinking about this all the time, all year around. They love this music more than anything. It's their chance to get together and play together. >> I hope those outfits were because of their passion and had something to do with the contest and not the way they dressed normally. Let's see another clip from The Entertainers. >> In 2009 we're in the 112th year of ragtime. >> And if you look at all the other popular music styles, none of them sustained that mass popularity for as long as ragtime did. >> Ragtime music is American-made. >> It's part of America's heritage, part of what America brought to the table. >> Like most American pop music, it started out-- It was a black thing. They took marches, the marches that white people were listening to and playing, and they would syncopate them a lot and make them snappy. >> If you listen to a march, everything in is on the beat, even with the "Mickey Mouse March" and "Stars and Stripes Forever." Then you get into the ragtime and it's off the beat, and that's what makes you move. >> And then finally it hit the mainstream. >> Then in Kansas City sometime in the late 1880s the word rag started to show up on occasion. In 1893 at the Chicago World's Columbian Exposition, that is allegedly where real ragtime was first heard. By 1900 everything in America was ragtime. There was a music industry all of a sudden, a publishing empire, million dollar entertainers, records. There was no record industry in 1890. It was a pretty big industry by 1910. Pretty phenomenal. Ragtime went from 1897 to 1917, and then one day everything as jazz. >> I don't think ragtime really stopped. I think what happened was in the 1920s ragtime just evolved into jazz and people started using the word jazz. I think you can make the argument that they just changed the word. >> Jazz then went into swing music. Swing became rhythm and blues. Rhythm and blued became rock and roll. >> Everything else that we call popular music, even all the way to hip hop, came from ragtime in one way or another, owes something to ragtime. So I really feel that there's a real connection between Scott Joplin's "Maple Leaf Rag" and Akon's "Don't Matter." It's there, you just gotta listen. >> I love it when people say they love 90s music. Most times they're not talking about 1890s music. Do you guys feel like-- I mean, what a great built-in soundtrack too you have for your film, all this music. Is that all public domain, or did you have to pay for the rights to that? >> That's actually a really interesting question. It was something that we didn't quite know enough about as we went into it. Most of the stuff that you'll see in the movie is public domain. We actually got a really big hand from the USC, University of Southern California School of Law's Intellectual Property and Technology clinic. They helped us make fair use of some stuff that's in there. But a lot of it is in the public domain, yeah. >> So you kind of got lucky. You didn't know that going in though? You just caught a break while you were doing it? All of the sudden it's like, ooh, we might want to think that over a little bit. >> Yeah. >> I think there were so challenges with some of the music that didn't fall into the public domain and how we had to kind of, considering our budget, work around things and try to make sure we could include as much as possible in the movie. >> Do you have-- Literally this is 80 minutes of great piano music. Talk about if you have a deeper connection to the music now after making a film like this. >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I certainly didn't really have a connection with it to start. I came to know and really feel passionate about it through experiencing it from the passion of others, and seeing how much they're invested in it. Listening to it, it wraps you up and it really-- It just fantastic music. It's easy to fall in love with it, I think. >> Yeah, definitely. You guys focused on six people. How did you whittle that down? Did you follow a lot of other people and you decided on these six? Talk a little bit about your casting, I guess it would be. >> Yeah, I would say, there's several dozen people that compete each year. Everybody is really talented. They all have wonderful personalities, and friendly and varying backgrounds. But I think, as we kind of-- We went to the contest one year, the year before we actually filmed it, and met everybody. Certain characters sort of emerged as being, like, we've got to have them in the movie. >> Right, right. >> With their sense of humor and they way they articulate their passion and everything. I think that we kind of honed in on these six in particular as, we've got to get these guys. >> Did you have more in the pipeline, so to speak? Did you film a lot more people or just these? >> We ended up filming about seven people. >> There was one guy that didn't make the top six? That's heartbreaking! >> Unfortunately, his wife had a baby right around the time of the contest and he couldn't make it to the contest. >> That's good. >> We didn't have to break any hearts. >> That's good. All right, let's see another clip from The Entertainers. My mom was an alcoholic. It got to the point where I couldn't confide in any of my adult relatives. The radio and the record player were my refuge. Being able to have an advocate, if you want to put it that way, an advocate on vinyl, someone to speak up for me. I remember being told I'd have been better off dead, better off not born. All of that before going to school and facing an America still wrestling with L.B.J's decision to sign the Civil Rights Act back in 1964. I'm still struggling to keep convincing myself to choose life. I've made it a promise, made myself a promise, to choose life. I'm really fighting every day. This is one of the reasons that I want to choose life. I'm gonna have some fun, and The World Championship Old-Time Piano Playing Contest, well, just being able to play is part of that fun. Every person has got challenges in life. This is mine. I'm determined to lick it.
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>> Jim Boston everybody. Thank you, Jim. >> We're back with Miceal Zimmer and Nick Holle, co-directors of The Entertainers. That clip is so heartbreaking. You watch that, and it's uplifting too, in a way, this guy with these problems. As documentarians, do you cheer for any of these guys or do you have to stay impartial. It's hard to watch and see that story and not go, come on, win the contest. You know. Do you find yourself rooting for anybody? Talk about how attached to the characters you get. >> Yeah, that's sort of one of the big challenges, I think, of being a documentarian, is the idea that you're supposed to be removed when you're experiencing people's lives and you're being there with them. Jim's an amazing guy and he-- I mean, a lot of the stuff he was telling us kind of even happened on the first day that we were with him. He just opened up and was like so welcoming of us. You won't find somebody who is that passionate about the music and about living generally. And he's just such a great guy. So yeah, naturally we're going to want-- We love all of these people. That's hopefully what comes across in the film. >> Yeah. >> I was just going to say, I think when you go to the contest as a fan you root for everybody. You have your favorites and you want certain people to win, but it's hard, it's really hard, to dislike any of these people. You just want all of them to do well because they care so much. They have just these neat, really funny personalities that you just root for. It's impossible not too I think. >> Yeah. You guys both went to USC for grad school, the writing program. As a filmmaker who never went to film school I'm real curious as to what that experience was like. Talk a little bit about your experience at USC, one of the top schools in the country for this medium. >> Go ahead. >> Yeah, well, I mean it was a really great program. We met a lot of interesting folks, both our professors and our fellow students. I feel grateful that I have all these really great friends that came out of it who are smart and talented and doing lots of interesting stuff. >> It's a good alumni network too, right? >> Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's how we connected. It's interesting, I don't necessarily think that you have to go to film school at all. In a way, for me, making this movie was a film school. I've never made one. Nick had made one, thankfully, because he had a lot of experience. You know, I think it's hard not to, especially when you're doing a documentary, it really is kind of like writing a movie. We shot 250 hours worth of stuff. We had to get it down to 90 minutes. What you're doing when you're doing that is essentially writing the movie. It's just, you already shot it. It's like, oh gosh, how do we put this together in a way that coheres and makes structure feel right, and you get to know people and feel like their arcs are advancing. That kind of stuff. So it was good training, I think. >> Does it give you an advantage in the business to come from a school like USC, NYU, Northwestern? >> I don't think it hurts. I'll say that. >> Yeah. I think you ultimately have to figure it out yourself, and do it yourself. I think it's helpful to be around that atmosphere. I think that was a big boost to us, to be around people who are that passionate about movie making and about writing, and things like that. I think that was really great. >> Invigorating, yeah. After this next clip we'll be joined by one of the stars of The Entertainers. I was actually born right here in Champaign, Illinois. They brought me home from the hospital, and except of course for going to school or extra curricular activities such as work, I haven't left. I actually started in the very second contest. I was going up against -- who was the reigning champion at that time. You had a 12-year old child, myself, who went up against a 70-year old granny for an old-time piano playing title. According to what my mother told me, she had a look on her face as though she had thought that I had beaten her. Well, of course, I didn't, and rightly so. I certainly was not up at that time to being a full-fledged champion, to either handling the publicity or, you know, the playing demands that something like that places on you. But I would not trade that experience, win or losing, for anything.
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As you see, I have a little assistance here. This, of course, helps me as far as hearing depth or something like that, tone. But a lot of it can't come just from hearing it. It has to come from the feel. Is hearing an absolute necessity for being a being a good pianist? Well, you know, okay, Beethoven went deaf and it seemed like he did just fine. >> We're joined now by the star of stage and now screen, Faye Ballard. Faye, welcome to Director's Cut. >> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. >> It's great to have you. Did you have fun making this movie? I'm assuming you've never been in a movie before. Talk about your experience a little bit. >> It was actually my first time being in a documentary and I 'd have to say it was a real pleasure. Mike and Nick made it a very simple and comfortable experience. >> It seemed like a friendly competition with everyone too. You guys all seem like you get along pretty well for the most part. >> We do. It is a competition, like you said, but we are also really good friends with each other. >> In that clip we just saw you have a hearing issue. Is that a disadvantage when you're playing the piano? You'd think it would be, but does it work in your favor at all? Because you have to use different senses. >> I tend to rely more on my sense of touch at the piano then, sometimes more than I do, of course, more than my hearing. But if it worked for Beethoven I can make it work for me. >> This is hard enough. What you guys do is amazing. It's an incredible art form. It seems like with the competition there's enough pressure. Was there a lot of added pressure because these guys were filming you? Did if make you even more nervous? >> Actually Mike and Nick made it where you really didn't even know that they were there filming you. They were that good at it. I mean, you knew they were there, but no, our mind was on the competition. >> You keep in touch with these guys, you said. Are their any more women coming into these competitions? You guys kind of touched on the fact that there were no a lot of women. >> There are not. We're doing our best to try and change that. We have one that's hopefully coming back for our 40th anniversary in 2014. We're working on that. >> All right. Good luck, and good luck with the contest. Are you going to play something for us? >> Absolutely. Let's do a little novelty piece for you by Zez Confrey. He wrote it in 1925. This is "Dizzy Fingers." >> Let's do it. Faye Ballard. >> Excellent Faye. Great job. >> Thank you. >> Hey, you're getting pretty good at this. >> I hope so. >> Thanks for being here at Director's Cut. >> It was a pleasure. Thank you. >> Let's see another clip from The entertainers. I got something up my sleeve. Ha ha ha. >> Last year Professor Bill stole one of my pieces. He heard me doing "Bluin' The Black Keys" at the preview. He said, oh, I was doing it before my arm broke. >> It's a little hard to follow Adam Swanson on this, but I will be attempting "Bluin' The Black Keys." I'm surprised to be up here and I didn't quite prepare today. But we'll do what we can. >> Yeah, uh-huh. >> If somebody else were able to find out what I was doing and they add more panache and flash to it than I do because they knew I was doing it this year, it's a competition. >> I didn't care. It bothered my parents more than anybody. >> That's a disadvantage for them. Then if Adam plays it better than they do, then it really makes them look poor. >> I usually am not going to pick it up because their doing it. I was already planning on it or it was somewhere in my choice of top twenty pieces. But I'm going to do it differently. I don't feel that that's unscrupulous. It's a competition after all. >> Ethan, last year, was giving me a little preview. But somebody else might do that, so-- It's too important now to-- >> I did a weaselly thing last year. I knew that Russell Wilson was playing "Sweet Georgia Brown," because he's a nice guy and he told me. >> Yeah, we were just e-mailing each other, and I told him, I'm going to play this and this and this. >> So I decided to learn it and play it as fast and as complicated as I could. >> He said, okay, Russell's playing "Sweet Georgia Brown," I'm going to play "Sweet Georgia Brown" too. And I'm going to do it better. And he did. >> That's so funny because they all seem like such mild-mannered people, but it is a competition. Do you think ever there could be a Nancy Kerrigan situation in the world of old-time piano playing? Somebody takes a sledgehammer to the fingers or something? Are these people really that competitive? Do they want to win that bad? They just seem like they're having fun, you know? >> There's definitely a strong undercurrent of competition. It was a little bit hard for us to bring it out, because they do all really like each other. Nobody wants to be sort of too assertive about the fact that they really do desperately want win. But they do. That was part of our job was trying to ferret that out of them a little bit. >> And I think-- Now we couldn't really get them to come out and say-- >> "I'll do anything." >> "I'll do anything." But I think we kind of learned to just sit back and let their stress and their pacing around before they play kind of be captured on screen. Then it started to show in their mannerisms, and the sweat coming off of their-- >> On the cutting room floor is there footage of somebody slipping somebody a mickey right before they play their big finale? You guys have this great film. It's about a topic that's not mainstream. Obviously, ragtime is not mainstream. So you've got a film about something that's not mainstream. Do you feel like that will be harder to get it seen? What do you do with it now? How do you get it out there? >> That's a great question. We've been doing the festival circuit and that's been really great. It's been playing around the country. Now we're kind of doing a road trail around the country, and our piano players will show up and play. That's been really successful. It's available on DVD and on Vimeo. You can download it off of our website. We're really trying to get it out there as best we can. We really want people to see it and see the music too. >> Yeah. >> Sorry, I don't want to cut you off. >> That's okay. >> No, I got nothin'. This is for both of you. What was your favorite part of the experience? We have about a minute left, or about 40 seconds left. What is, for each of you, your favorite experience making this film? >> I would say just meeting the people, and kind of being brought into their family a little bit. >> To their world. >> Yeah. I think it's something that-- You know, I'll be going to Peoria every year for as far as I can see. >> So you've got that going for you. >> Exactly. >> They just really welcomed us into the family. I feel like, you know, it's such a great cultural thing that I want to see keep going. It's really important to our cultural history as Americans that this music is heard and that people know, sort of, where our music comes from. And they're just terrific anyway. It's been a lot of fun. >> You guys have done your part. That's great. Nice job. Thanks for being here with us today. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, sure, anytime. I'd also like to thank Faye Ballard for being here as well. For more information on The Entertainers please got to wpt.org and click on Director's Cut. I'm host Pete Schwaba. Thanks for letting us entertain you. We'll see you next time.
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