Director's Cut

birds singing in distance

water splashes

water splashes

eerie music

>> Hi, welcome to Director's Cut. I'm guest host Pete Schwaba. That was a clip from "Into the Wake," a gritty drama about man drawn into an age-old family feud after receiving a mysterious phone call. We're joined today by the film's director, John Mossman. John, thanks for being here. >> Nice to be here. >> Great clip. I love that shot where the comes out. He gets drawn back into this world, the character on the beach, Kyle, because of a family feud. When I think of a family feud-- I think when most people think of family feuds they think of the Capulets and the Montagues or the Hatfields and the McCoys. >> Right. >> Either one of those stories an influence in writing this? >> Not especially. We wanted to shoot something around here, and we started researching feuds and thought the same thing. It's like, do they only happen down in, you know, the Appalachians, or you know, Italy or whatnot. We found that there were a lot of them. A lot of them in Canada, everywhere. They generally started with something pretty benign that people don't even remember, like something over a property line or shooting a dog, or maybe livestock, something like that. It just escalates into dumber and dumber, sort of, more violent situations that get out of hand. >> Right. I've actually been in three family feuds. They were all over a game of Nerf hoops. We were able to have a tickle fight and move on. So they do exist in modern days? >> Yeah. >> They're not that uncommon? To the degree that we've seen here in your film? >> Yeah, worse. We had a scene we would have liked a Molotov cocktail, and that was based after something that happened recently, going through a window, but it was a little beyond our budget. >> Wow, so what made you want to write about this and direct a film about it? Do you have any connections to family feuds? >> Well, actually I have one distantly on my mom's side, but we didn't really ever talk about that very much. It was a Kentucky side of the family. But that's really not the genesis of this. It really started with a short film that I made about 12 years ago with Tim, who stars in it and co-wrote it with me. It was a short film called "Draggage." We always wanted to make a follow up to it. We shot it in the desert. We didn't quite know how to do it because we were in the desert anymore. We were in this lush kind of-- We both moved back from LA. He to raise his family and me to raise mine. So we wanted to shoot it as sort of a follow up and a feature version of it. This was what we came up with. There's a short film out there called "Draggage" that has a little bit of this element, about someone who is involved in an act of violence that they're not necessarily aware of whether they were fully responsible for it, but they carry that guilt with them. >> Wow. And it happened here in Wisconsin, the one you're talking about? >> Oh, the feud, actually no. The feud that actually happened was, I think it was Kentucky. >> Okay. >> It was on my mom's side a long time ago. >> You're probably at risk just talking about it here. How long did it take you to write the script? Did you guys-- >> I think we wrote this for like a year. >> Wow! So it took a lot of research. >> Yeah, yeah. We went through a lot of iterations of it. Actually, we might actually consider that it might have taken five years, because there are various elements of other scripts that came up and appeared in this. It kind of came together in the right way in the last six to 12 months. >> Great. Well, let's see another clip from "Into the Wake."

yelling in Spanish

>> Hey!

fighting continues

Hey! What are you thinkin'? Huh? Look at me, talk to me!

gun clicks

gunshot

>> That's a great scene. What are we suppose to take away from that scene? Are we trying to find out that John is a good guy? Or does he see something from his past in that, you know, confrontation right there? >> Actually, it's Kyle. >> Kyle, I'm sorry. >> He has two names. >> He's Ken and Kyle. >> Right. Yeah, I think it's also that he trying to make amends. There's something about him, when he sees somebody bullied and being lured into a trap by other sort of teenaged kids. There's something that rekindles a very traumatic incident that is extremely important to the plot line. >> That we find out about later. >> That you find out about later, but actually you kind of see that there's a glimpse of that man, just a glimpse of a man in a plaid shirt that then disappears, and you see that he's transporting himself back to that time that he's repressed. >> You've got a great-- I love the reveal there when first he's sitting and eating, and then you open up and you're in the city of Chicago. It almost looks like you're in Wisconsin. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And you have so many great shots in this movie, like overhead shots that just open it up, and all these great reveals. How do you do that on a budget that you had? We discussed budget a little bit. How do you make and Indy film? Maybe you'd share some tips for other Independent filmmakers, one who's sitting right across from you. How do you do that? How do you make an Indy film look much bigger than it is? >> Specifically around those two, it's sort of what we would call the eye-of-the-gods shots. I had two of three of those. Particularly, one in Chicago and one up off Ferry Bluff. I knew those were going to be very important. They were going to be linked to each other. The movement was sort of similar. I went about looking for free places that we could get those at. One was a South Side barrel manufacturing company in Chicago. It just happened to work out on many levels. It had a roof that they would let us get up on. Then my brother seems to know every square foot of southern Wisconsin, and has connections to the Nature Conservancy and other places, like Cactus Bluff, Ferry Bluff, that area by Sauk County. So we got permission to shoot up there with a very small crew. It's a protected area, so we had to use, you know, small cameras, very limited kinds of gear, so we had a very small footprint. >> That's interesting. It sounds like you had to jump through more hoops to shoot in rural Wisconsin than you did in Chicago. I'd think it'd be the other way around, you know. >> Yeah, because some places in Wisconsin, yeah, we did. There was a cave we wanted to shoot in and it was owned by the Nature Conservancy. That would have required a lot of paperwork to get permission to shoot in that. And I understand that. My brother said, well, we'll just find you another cave. Where you gonna find another cave? >> Caves are a dime a dozen out here. >> He found us a cave. >> Wow. >> Yeah, these people had a fantastic cave. >> Okay, so shooting in Chicago, shooting in Wisconsin, what were some of the challenges either place, and what was more fun? What did you enjoy shooting more? >> I had more fun in Wisconsin. I was there longer and I got to really revisit my youth. This is where I was raised. I shot along the Wisconsin River, which is where, I was raised in the Baraboo area. I got to shoot in the bluffs. So I had a little more fun up there. And I got to ride my motorcycle to and from. You know, the motorcycle that's used in the film, that old-- >> That's yours? >> '83, yes, is now mine. I borrowed it from a friend and then I bought it. But I had a little more fun up here, but Chicago had more cops. They didn't hassle us, but they're accustomed to people shooting more down there, so you have to be a little more careful. Plus, we had that gunshot, so I had to call a cop friend of mine to come and hang out, just in case somebody reported us as there being gunfire on the streets. >> Got ya. They were pretty cool about it, you didn't have to get permits? Was it kind of guerilla in Chicago? >> No, we got permits anytime we needed a permit, but we didn't need a permit there. We just had to go around to the neighbors. On the sidewalk you don't need a permit, but other places you do. >> All right. Let's see another clip from "Into the Wake." >> A spirit chases you. Following you. Do you know who is this? >> No. >> Very painful. Shame. Malas energias, Mihija. But this may change soon. Someday, she will have wings to fly away. >> Is there anything else? >> You are angry. You have been surrounded by lies. Por Mentiras. Malas energias, Mihija. >> What does that mean? >> Bad energy. >> Can I ask you a question? >> Do you have question for me? >> Yeah. Where will I be in 20 years? >> En los brazos de un orfano. >> What does that mean? >> In the arms of an orphan.

Simone laughs

>> You are amazing. You are amazing! >> Es verdad, Mihija? >> Yeah, it's true! Ken is an orphan. >> Yeah.

Ken and Simone laugh

>> You're stuck with me now. >> That was a clip from "Into the Wake." We're talking with director John Mossman. How is it, when you're writing a story like this, how do you decide what to reveal when? I mean, you have a lot of twists in this movie. The scene with the fortune teller, was that a tough scene to navigate? >> Yeah. When in doubt I tend to say, I follow Hitchcock's sort of path, which is show as little as possible. A little here, a little there. Don't show too much, because then it adds to the tension. Yeah, revealing, that was a big discussion between Tim and I as to how much we should reveal. We want it to be challenging but not too challenging, and have anyone get lost. There were times when I went to a few film festivals and people were not quite following one point, that I went back and I re-edited a little bit to help that little transition. >> Foreshadowing things? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> You know, I think part of the charm of this movie for me, if I can say charm about a suspense thriller, is I don't-- I love this about independent films in general, the unknowns. Tim Miller and Kristin Anderson, is her name? I don't them, I've never seen them before. So it's easier for me to kind of lose myself in the story. Does this film work as well with huge stars? >> It would sell better with huge stars, but I don't know that it would work as well. No, I think there's a mystery around both of those characters. Tim, I think Tim is perfect in it. >> He's great. >> And Kristin, we just lucked out with that. I had someone that was a little better known in that role and had to pull out last second. >> Halle Berry? >> No. >> Say yes, it doesn't matter. >> It think she's as pretty as Halle Berry. >> Of course. >> And very talented too. We lucked out getting her three days before we started shooting. >> Wow, really? Sometimes that can maybe almost help your performance, to just kind of come in not knowing what to expect. >> She was alive, yeah. She was definitely alive when she was on set, because she had just jumped into this world and immersed herself over the coarse of three, four days. I knew her, so it worked out. >> You have kind of a rich theater background, too. What do you prefer, film or theater? >> I like directing, I think I like directing better than acting. Between film and theater, I might, they're both kind of exhausting in their own way. >> Sure. >> But I think film is a little bit closer to me, because it's such a huge, huge endeavor. Once you finish something, I take my hat off to anybody who finishes a film. Because it's going to live forever. You can always remember a play is better, on it's best performance. Your film is going to live forever with warts and all. >> As is. >> You have to let it go and that's what it is. For me, maybe I like it a little more just because of that kind of risk element, as a director. >> That's a great answer. Did you have luck finding actors in Wisconsin? I assume you cast the roles in Sauk County? >> Yeah, we cast a lot up here in Madison. Sam White is one of badass brothers, who's just a perfect scary, scary man who also brought his boat. So in the scene where he drives the boat, a lot of the boat riding through the Wisconsin River, he knows his business on a boat. >> So you got a boat guy and an actor all rolled into one. >> Yeah. >> Was he the guy in the barn that had the confrontation? >> Yeah, he's got, the kind of, the whiter hair and a baseball cap. He's got a lower voice. He's the scariest one. >> So we're all those guys from Wisconsin? >> No, Josh, the youngest of the brothers, he was from outside of Chicago. But yeah, the other guys were all Wisconsin guys, or people from Wisconsin that had moved out. JK, James Keip, was a buddy of mine who's is also sort of an outdoors man kind of guy I grew up with. He's one of the guys. Greg McNamer, I grew up with him, and he moved to Texas. He flew back to be in it. He still has family here. So I had a lot of, all those guys, I think were-- >> Just wanted to help out and be in a movie. >> They stuck around for a couple of weeks to do it. >> Cool. Well, let's see another clip from "Into the Wake."

phone ringing

>> Hello? Kyle? >> Who is this? >> You know who it is. >> Who is this?! >> We have to move it. >> I don't know what you're talking about, man, you got the wrong guy. >> The DNR's building a canoe camp on the river, on the big island. There's stuff going on up here, Kyle. They're gonna find it, and then they're gonna find you. >> Are you up there? >> I'm safe. >> Stay outta town! Stay outta town, do you hear me? >> You need to come up here. Only you know where it is. >> Do you hear me? >> Yeah, stay outta town. >> Tomorrow. I'll meet you at noon. At the south bank. We'll walk across the bridge. >> I don't like that plan, Kyle. >> Tough

###

. >> That's a great scene. I mean, "We have to move it." I love it. >> That was the first line we came up with. >> What is this movie? Is it a suspense thriller or a drama? You've got all these great chase scenes in the film. You've got these really dramatic scenes. What genre would you even put this into? >> You know I heard it described as an existential action film. I find that funny. But I find that actually kind of accurate, yeah, I like it. Yeah, psychological thriller, I would sort of call it that. But it deals on, you know, a little more Jungian levels of collective guilt, and it kind of borrows from a lot stuff that Joseph Campbell writes about that I drew from. I guess, yeah, existential action film might be-- >> I'd go with that. >> I'll go with that, because I haven't heard it before. >> There's the quote for the movie box right there, "existential action film." Who are your influences as a writer and director, would you say? >> I like Hitchcock. I like David Lynch. I like, I like Stanley Kubrick, just because it was the first thing I think I saw and remember seeing. Sitting in a theater with my dad and seeing "2001," and not knowing what the hell that was about, but knowing that it was about something. >> There's something big going on but you're not really sure what it is. >> Yeah. There's symbolism going on here. I looked for it everywhere after that, even in, like, "Herbie, the Love Bug," you know. I was always looking for symbolism. >> That wasn't a Kubrick film. >> No. Although I would have liked to have seem him take a stab at it. >> It would have been fun. So what about Chicago? You've got all these great playwrights there, or writers, any Chicago influences? I kind of saw some. I think I told you yesterday when we talked on the phone. >> You can't live there as long as I have and not be like, have a Mamet influence. And that's just how Tim talks. He's just from Chicago. So when he writes, he's a better writer of dialogue than I am. When he writes he'll write-- I think he's better at dialogue. And so a lot of the dialogue I defer to him. A lot of it comes out like that. It's just that rhythm of the place. >> So what about the music? I love the music. You talked about Kentucky. You kind of had that, you know, sort of, it's like family feud music, it's like that, violins, I guess? >> Yeah, we worked with a guy called Petter Wahlback, which is funny, because he's not even American. But he's a really, really talented musician and composer, and he specializes in composing for film. He used things like Appalachian instruments, drumsticks that were fretless, sort of like a three of four-stringed instrument that he would play backwards and record. Because a lot of this is about going back in time he was really into playing this and then reversing the music. So it's a lot of fun, the soundtrack, for me to listen to, because I know how much effort went into it. >> Yeah, really. >> I'm glad you noticed it. >> I notice it, but not in a bad way. You know, you kind of notice it while you're watching. It just kind of perpetuates the storyline. >> That's good to hear. >> Is it tough directing a guy? You're an actor yourself, and a pretty accomplished one too, in Chicago. Is it hard to watch another actor make choices in a role that you're directing? >> Not in this case, no. It was written for him from the beginning. When I wrote the first role of "Draggage," that's how I met Tim, I'd written this role of this short film. I looked at him and I thought, he's perfect for this. I wouldn't have to second guess. When it came time for us to make this one 12 years later, I felt the same way. I trusted his instincts so well. And I do give him director's direction. He takes direction well. They're usually pretty subtle. >> He's kind of like a John Heard kind of thing going there, with the beard. With his look, I think. It's good. All right, well, let's see another clip from "Into the Wake."

footsteps

What did you do to him? >> Nothing. I let him go. Your brother said he wasn't out on that island. I believe him. >> And you just let him go? >> Yeah. I told you want we want. Your dad died. Did you know that? >> Yeah, I figured. >> I heard he was always a big drinker. After you disappeared, he just drove his truck into the river. Look, you want to walk outta here like your brother, all you gotta do is show us where you and your dad, and your uncle, and whoever else was out there, buried my brother. >> I told you already, man, I don't know! >> People think we killed you. Do you know that? Do you? For all intents and purposes, you've already been a dead man. It wouldn't take much to make you disappear. I want it over. >> You want it to be over? >> Yeah. >> Then let me go. I wasn't there. You weren't there. You're not even old enough to remember it. >> You know, if you didn't do anything, why'd you drive out here in the middle of the night because of one phone call? Tomorrow morning, you are digging a hole. And either my brother comes out, or you go in. >> A great, intense scene, geez. A tough choice. I say, dig the hole. It's interesting in this film, because you have these two settings, Chicago and southern Wisconsin. It's very beautiful. And Chicago, big city, a lot of bad things happen as they do in most cities. But all the bad stuff that happens to Kyle in his life happened in this beautiful setting. >> A beautiful place. >> Were you aware of that juxtaposition when you were writing it, or is that a conscious choice? >> I was, but I'm surprised at how many people bring that out. That's one of those things that you're aware that you're doing, and you just don't realize maybe the subconscious impact that has on an audience member. A lot of people commented on that. It's in this gritty, ugly place that he's actually got kind of a healthy life going on. >> Yeah, right. >> Then he goes back to this beautiful place and underneath there is all this ugly stuff. But everything is so beautiful around it while it's happening. >> It's so messed up. I mean, there's another scene in the barn, where they're like shouting at each other, and you kind of get an idea of what happens. People will see when they watch the movie, of how horrible the past was. Man, this guy should have left, you know, either settled it with a dance-off or get out. Hit the road! So, let's say you have, with all the hats you've worn, producer, director, actor in theater and in film. You've done short films, features, plays. What title would you take, and in what vehicle? >> Oh, God! >> If someone had a gun to your head in a barn and you had to choose. >> If I had to cut out all the hyphens? >> Exactly. >> I'd probably, at this point, just say I'm a director. >> Of theater? Film? >> That's tough, I'd have to look at my body of work. I'd probably say I'm more of an actor, the stuff I've done the most of. But I think the way I view myself is a director, and probably, at this point, at this point right now, more of a theater director. Because that's what I do more of, you know? But I think, inside, that's me. What you see in the scene is more of me. >> Okay. >> It's more personal. >> I have to mention too, that a lot of film students from UW-Baraboo worked on the film. Talk a little about that. What was that like? >> Professor Auld, Frankie Auld, had arranged with Boo U. to have some of their students come and help us. >> Is that what they call it? That's great. You've got to go to a school with a good nickname like that. >> Yeah! They need a sports team that they can make total advantage of it. So they all showed up and they helped us clean out the barn. They helped us do all sorts of stuff, you know. There were three or four of them there almost every given day. They were just a blast to be around. >> Put the film students to work on the stuff no one else want to do. Clean out the barn you guys! This is were you earn your chops. >> Yeah, lesson one. Sometimes some of them stepped in, and boomed when we needed to. I gave them a quick lesson on that and they did a good job. The sound was great. They stepped in. >> Great job. >> Thank you. >> It was really nice to have you, and a good film. Do you have a website? >> Yes, we do. www.dieselbrothersfilm.com You can find info on buying the film, or renting it there. >> Cool. John, thanks for coming. >> Thank you. I'll be back with another one in the state. >> I hope so. And thank you very much for joining us here at Director's Cut. For more information on "Into the Wake," please go to our website at wpt.org and click on Director's Cut. I'm guest host Pete Schwaba, and that's a wrap.