Washington Week with The Atlantic

Good evening and welcome to the Washington Week extra. I'm Yamiche Alcindor. On Tuesday, President Biden signed the Emmett Till Anti Lynching Act into law. For the first time in US history. The law makes lynching a federal hate crime. The law is not just about the past. It's about the president. And our future as well. Hate never goes away. It only hides. It hides under the rocks. Given just a little bit of oxygen. It comes roaring back out screaming. And what stops it. Is all of us. Not a few. All of us have to stop it. The bill is named after him till he was a 14 year old black boy who was brutally murdered by a group of white men in Mississippi in 1955, his mother's courageous decision to have an open casket funeral for him. Maybe you'd impact on the fight for civil rights because people got to see, of course, close to impact of that murder. Joining me tonight to discuss this and more to mainly Is a correspondent for MSNBC and the host of the Into America Podcast and Back with me, Still is Michael Shear, White House correspondent for The New York Times. Thank you both of you for being here to remain. I want to start with you. We talked a little bit about who, Emmett Till was But you, um, talked to his family. Tell us a little bit more about who am until was and why it's so important that this bill was named after him. It means that the name Emmett Till is kind of seared in our collective memory, at least in our community as an unwilling martyr of 14 year old boy from Chicago, visiting family Mississippi when he made the mistake of of of whistling at a white woman and that end up getting them killed, But I just killed he was kidnapped, tortured and murdered right? His deaths really sparked the modern day civil rights movement. And so all these years later, I'm 65 years later, even though his name rings clear, right rings loud. We understand who Emmett Till was his name. Being on this legislation means that the justice that he didn't get in life no one was ever held accountable for for his murder that perhaps moving in the future, um, that the people will be able to be held accountable under this law, right? So His name, Emmett Till we know, But now it will be emblazoned forever once legislation and hopefully moving forward, you know, Um it is Standford for justice, not just the manner in which he died. And you talk to a member of Intel's family for your upcoming podcasts that can't wait to listen to that episode. What's your biggest takeaway from that conversation? What sticks with you? Yeah, I spoke to the Reverend Wheeler Parker, who was an older cousin of immortals who was actually there the night he was kidnapped. And I think the first thing that stands out to me is that when we think about the so called bad old days when black folks were being lynched across this country with impunity, it seems like some distant memory. But there are people living with us today. Um, who have family members who were alleged who were witnesses of lynching. And so I think the the idea that the gap between now and then is much smaller than we can imagine, but also the pain still being carried by this family all of these years later to see the pain in his voice still and look in his eyes and to hear himself the story about Emmett Till's kidnapping, murder. It just it just gives you a heavy heart. It's a heavy heart. It's absolutely a heavy heart and Tremaine one more question for you because this bill comes after 100 years of trying to 100 failed attempts. What do you think made this moment different and made this bill be able to be passed. I think you have a number of things. I don't think it's lost on anyone that Joe Biden is thinking about history when he said that he'd have the backs of black folks. Many people across the country are waiting for for those signs, but I think could be Brown Jackson's appointment to the Supreme Court tapping Kamala Harris. I think this is another one of those sign post that Joe Biden is trying to make his mark on history, but certainly the tenor and tone of the last several years in this country. And the racial reckoning and arriving at this moment now where the soil is right for for change, right people have a dialogue in the language around some of these racial disparities. I think after 200 of failed attempts, we arrive at this moment, but I think we only it only took 200 because of the white supremacy still baked into our politics. Right to vote for this bill many years ago, you know would have been Undermining the white supremacist impulses of a lot of people across this country, especially those in the south. So we arrived this moment at the 200 attempts and and 100 years. Um, I think it's certainly a sign of progress in this country. Michael Jump in here. You're not being both when Germany was talking about sort of the impact of this, but also the political calculations, the political decisions being made by the White House. Yes, I mean, I totally agree with the question on the question of Biden and his legacy. I mean, you know, the president came in to office Absolutely determined to be You know, to be a leader on some of these issues. He's talked about equity from the beginning of obviously the decisions that have already been mentioned about selecting the first African American. You know, Vice President, etcetera. I guess I would offer a little bit of, um, cynicism, though. I mean, I'm a reporter. That's what I do. You know, In some ways, I think There is so much work to be done on other issues that really truly are central to, um, you know, to black life in America, whether it be voting rates, whether it be prison reform, sentencing reform, And I wonder if in some ways this wasn't a sort of easier vote for people to take, right? I mean, they I think only three members of the House voted against it. I think it was Um, kind of, you know, nobody objected in the Senate to it. And so I mean, that speaks in part to all of the things that were said about the moment that we're in, but it also may speak. Ah to to a way in which this was kind of more of a symbolic vote. And really, I think the test is still in the future. Look at all of the things that, for example, the Republican Party hasn't been willing to let through that. You know that the benefit the country but also in particular the black, the black community. That, you know, speaks to how far we have yet to go. You know, this is one piece of legislation. I think you know, folks are happy that it's you know that it's that it's done. But there's a lot left. Well speaking with you, Michael there there is this sense when I talk to White House officials that they realize that they're going to be called to account to say, Okay, what laws? What did you pass specifically for to improve life for black people who you're going to need to turn out in record numbers, not only to keep your job in 20 24 President Biden but also to win in 2022 in these midterms. What's your sense? When you talk to White House officials about how concerned they are about voting rights and policing? And just the ability to make the case to black people to turn out in big numbers? Look, I mean, I think it depends whether you're whether you're talking to them on the record or off the record off the record. I mean, on the on the record, they will cite a litany of things that they know that are Part of the president's record to date, and I think they are. They will say that they believe that the president and his party should get credit for those for taking those steps. I think privately, there is concern that the gridlock in Washington has meant that on some big things that are important to the black community, and there are issues that cross over right. For example, college affordability is an issue that you know is broader than the black community. But often you know is is hits the black community particularly hard and they they haven't made any progress on that on a lot of the issues that they failed to do on the build back his build back better agenda. You know, those are things I think privately that they worry that they're going to come to the midterm elections and then the 2024 reelect. And not have a lot to show for it and and that the black community will hold them accountable and Jermaine in thinking about sort of the current day issues that are going on. There's something going to wonder why do you even need an anti lynching bill in 2022? But then, of course, we have the case of Ahmad Aubrey and so many others. That show that this lynching is not something that is in the past with something that could happen to people right now. That's right. Well, first of all, I think people when you think of lynching, you think a noose and and the tree right? But but the organized murder based on on hate, right? That's the lynching. And with this bill does it expands the net of who can be held accountable for the conspiracy? In the case of Emmett Till whistled at a white woman, white woman jeans up her brother and her family members and she's central to this and so in the current context, she would also be charged with murder. When we see the the you know the level of hate and racism and white supremacy still coursing through the fabric of this country. There should be no surprise or concern. Why are we still need an anti lynching laws? Not just the grainy black and white photos. That's strange fruit, right? Strange fruit has taken many different forms. Today we see it in the systemic kind of violence, but in certainly certainly Still, the physical violence we see in a case like amount are very And speaking with this idea of strange fruit and and what people are enduring What do civil rights activists tell you that they hope this bill will change in this nation's mind? Because I was I was looking at some of the interview that you did with them and tells family member and they talked about the fact that like you can legislate on paper, but you also can't really change in some ways least. You can't change people's hearts and the way that people view other people. I think I think our colleagues said well a few minutes ago. This is largely symbolic, and that's what I meant. When I said that it is not lost in your body. History is not lost on him, and so by putting this mark us, we're going to see this in history book. It's a good faith show that they're willing to put their money where their mouth is, symbolically, at least. But I don't think it's lost on on any of the activists across this country where I've talked to who say that there is a need for substantive reform in this country, but that the baseline in America's anti blackness there's a certain level of suffering or hurt or just enfranchisement or or caging and Jail do shooting by police or all kinds of forms of violence heaped on the community. That is accepted in this country. And so the same way that Catania Brown Jackson is actually progress. And it looks great. Will that substantively changed the lives of black folks having a VP Kamala Harris? Will that subject we change unless you get you know some teeth behind legislation around protecting the franchise for folks in so many other issues across this country, It will be a nice a nice little You know, signed to hang on you on your legacy, but little more. Yeah, Those are all key questions remain sort of what What is going to be the actual impact of what could be the symbolism of all sorts of things? Even some would say the first black president, the first black VP, the first Supreme Court nominee. All that is great, but it's it needs to also be tied with the idea that everyday African Americans need to be able to live. And flourish in their communities without being scared of being racially profiled so so much we can talk about have to leave it there tonight. But thank you so much to Tremaine and to Michael for sharing your