Tribal Histories

Ho-Chunk History

[wind blows]

– I was telling a friend of mine last night that I had a dream. In this dream, there was a lot of old gentlemen, old, old Ho-Chunks. And they were all speaking. And it became this one old gentleman’s time to tell a story. You know, I learned this story from my grandfather, and the way that my grandfather tells the story is the way that I tell it. But this guy was old… older, much older. He started telling the story, and I could follow it, but he used words that I… I haven’t heard. I’ve never heard. I inferred the meaning from the way he used it in the story, and I went and talked to my brother about it …my brothers. And we sat there. We talked about those words. It didn’t ring a bell with any of us, so I went back to the story and I told the story and then I used that word.

I’d go back and I’d say, “Okay, this is where he used this word,” and I’d use that word again. And they said that, “Your inference is probably correct what you think that it means.” And I think that’s what it means, too, but I don’t know what it means, you know.

[laughing]

It was a… good dream.

[music]

– Ho-Chunk History was funded in part by Irene Daniell Kress, Francis A. and Georia F. Ariens Fund of the Community Foundation for the Fox Valley Region, Evjue Foundation, Ron and Patty Anderson, Ira and Ineva Reilly Baldwin Wisconsin Idea Endowment, National Endowment for the Humanities, and Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.

[Andy speaks in Ho-Chunk language]

You know me well. My name is Andy Thundercloud. I’m a member of the Ho-Chunk tribe. My grandfather told me that we were always great people. He said that we were always respected by the tribes that surrounded us, and he said some of that respect even ran to fear because we were supposedly a very fierce, proud people that protected what we considered to be ours. The land, that we considered to be home, ran from, I guess, North Michigan, the northern peninsula, as far as Chicago. Because Chicago has a Ho-Chunk name. And then, from there, it ran to the West, the Mississippi. And then from there, we went back up north again.

What we considered to be our land, that we were given the responsibility of– what should I say? Maintaining it as it should be and it was, you know, created for us. The creatures that we saw here, that we had here, were created for us, you know, as well as these trees, this grass, the water. Everything was created for us. They’re all considered to be sacred by us, and we do our best to maintain that relationship that we have with them. When we are going to use a tree for whatever purpose, we offer tobacco and a prayer that we are going to be taking this tree and we’re going to be using it for a certain purpose.

The same is true if we were going out to gather medicine. I was sitting here looking around earlier and I was kind of going “Hmm, I wonder what kind of medicine is around here, you know.” My grandfather used to take me out to gather medicines. He would tell me, “This medicine is used for this. And this medicine is used for that. And you can use it for this and you can use it for that.” He said that each time that we harvested some of that, that we offer tobacco. That we were going to be using this for a purpose to make our people stronger and make our people well.

But from what I gather from my history, grandfather said that we were a traveling people. We traveled throughout the continental United States.

There have been stories of… Well, I guess these are recent stories that… recent is…you know… Take a look at it– consider colonial times back in the 1700s as being recent. There were stories of groups of our individuals that would travel east. It took them a long time to get to their destination. And the destination didn’t have a Ho-Chunk name, so it was referred to as “Boston.” They went there to trade. They took their objects that they were going to trade, and they traded for knives and metal objects, and once they traded, they started the journey back. And, from what I understand, that journey would often take two years: a year to get there and a year to get back.

But I think the thing I distinctly remember my grandfather telling me is that “To the west of us is the Great River, the Mississippi.” And, at one time, there was a large number of us that went down the Mississippi and came to where the Missouri River and the Mississippi River come together. I guess that would be the area of St. Louis. And we settled there.

For whatever reason, there were some younger members of the tribe that became disgruntled and they moved off to the west and a little bit south of there. There were others that became disgruntled and went up the Missouri River and settled in there. Some of them even went further up the Missouri River and settled up in the Dakota area. I have been told that many of the tribes that currently exist in Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota, even Oklahoma: they’re all originally Ho-Chunks.

In fact, he told me a story. Sometime during the 1800s, there was a large gathering of Indians in Omaha. I think there was the Poncas, the Otos, the Missouris, the Iowa, the Omahas, and some Sioux. There was a gentleman that came from the East. And this anthropologist asked these other tribes, “Where you reside now: Have you always resided there, or did you come from somewhere else?” And each of them says, “No, we came from Mook Hasuc.” Mook Hasuc translates to “red bank.” The Green Bay area. I guess I could say our “Garden of Eden” because that’s where we were created.

[music]

So, the Winnebago, Ho-Chunk people… We were known as “Winnebago” at one time. I don’t remember what tribe gave us that name, but it was anglicized to Winnebago. To us, we’ve always been Ho-Chunk. Winnebago is a foreign name to me.

[music]

I grew up with my grandfather. My grandfather raised me, raised me until I went to school. And during that time, I never spoke English. In fact, I distinctly remember the first time I saw a white person. I must have been four years old, and this white person came to the house asking for my grandfather. And I remember being a little bit astounded because he was a little white guy. With a little fringe of hair around here, but he spoke Ho-Chunk, and that confused me.

So after he left, I asked grandpa. I said, “Grandpa, who is that man? What family does he come from? What clan does he belong to?” And Grandpa just laughed, he just laughed. He thought it was funny. And he told me that they belong to a race that we call Maixete, “big knives.” And that there were a lot of them in the world. And the world, as we knew it, was pretty much governed by what they did. And he said that I’d have to get used to it. He said, “Because you are going to run into them in your lifetime.” A couple years later when I started school, I found out what he was talking about.

[laughing]

I started school. I wasn’t able to speak any English at all. And, I think that I did well because I never was held up in any grades. I graduated eighth grade on time. I graduated high school on time. I wish I could say the same thing about college, but I cannot say that.

[laughing]

But, I did finally finish. And I am a member of the Thunder Clan. And that’s where our chiefs come from. And my grandfather always told me to conduct myself as such. He told me that, “We were the chiefs,” he said, but never to say that. Never to come right out and use that as a way of being authoritative. He said that, “I don’t do that because the way of the chief is hard.” He said, “It is a very difficult life.” He said that, “I’m not capable of doing that, so therefore, I don’t call myself chief.”

[music]

We are divided into 12 clans. There are eight clans that belong here on Earth. There’s four clans that belong up above. And in the past, each clan had a certain responsibility within the tribe to ensure that everything went well. They each had a certain area that they lived in. They took their responsibilities to heart, and did them well. You can take a look at it as each being different departments. Maybe the Department of Transportation, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Agriculture and those kinds of things. That is the way the tribe was.

Our modern government is more structured after what everyone does. We have got a president. We’ve got a legislature. So, we’ve got the Executive Branch. We’ve got the Judicial Branch. We’ve got the legislative branch. Elections every four years. We elect our legislators and elect our president. The president appoints heads of the various departments that we have within the tribe. Clans were created eons, thousands of years ago through our origin stories. Those clans still exist today, but since we are not a central, cohesive unit, until we come together for ceremonies, then those clan responsibilities kick in.

Like I said, we of the Thunder Clan, we are the chiefs. It was our responsibility to see to the well-being of our people. If somebody came to us and said, “I don’t have a home,” we would immediately abandon what we were living in and say, “Here is your new home.” Or, if somebody come to us and said, “We haven’t been able to procure any food,” all we had to do was give them food and sustenance and whatever. I think that is what grandfather was talking about when he said, “It was difficult.” It’s like in modern-day times, if you were to come up to me and say, “Andy, I don’t have a car.” If I was a true chief, I would reach in my pocket and say, “Here. Here’s your car.”

I am a Thunder clan because my father was a Thunder clan. We follow our fathers’ lineage, although our mothers’ lineage plays a lot into it, too.

[laughing]

You know, I’ve tried to explain our relationships. I said, “It’s simple. My father, all my father’s brothers are my fathers; Hence, all their children are my brothers and sisters. Okay, all my mother’s sisters are my mothers; Hence, all their children are my brothers and sisters. Now, my mother’s brothers are my uncles, and my father’s sisters are my aunts.” I have a nephew now that… This is funny, okay! His father is my uncle, but his mother is my sister. Okay. So, on his mother’s side, I am his uncle, but on his father’s side, he is my uncle. So, we are nephews to one another. And that’s the way we address one another.

[laughing]

It is unique, you know, a unique relationship.

My grandfather always said that I should be proud of who I am and where I’ve come from.

And he often told me stories about the Ho-Chunk people. He’s told me stories about how large our tribe was at one time, without even giving me any numbers, but I am assuming that we ran into the tens of thousands. I don’t know. He told me that we were created here. You know, I don’t care what the anthropologists have said: I firmly believe that this is where we were created and this is where we live. This is where we have lived. This is where we will continue to live as time goes on.

Grandfather told me many stories. He said the coming of the white man changed a lot because he often told me that these white people think that they know something. He said, “They don’t.” But because of the technology they had or the knowledge that they had… we were forced to live in their style. Our relocation program that they had for us: We were moved to the West; forcibly removed to the West. And stories about when the troops, the Federal troops, got back, the Ho-Chunks would be here waiting. There was a story about an old man who was well over a hundred years old. His name was Yellow Thunder, and he was removed. And by the time the troops came back, he was sitting there waiting for them. You know, and whatever.

And those stories go on. You know, I don’t know how many times… I think. I believe we were moved to Minnesota, northern Minnesota, then southern Minnesota. And then, from there we were moved to Crow Creek area in South Dakota. They didn’t like it. It wasn’t our home and they grew very disgruntled. And some of them went down the Missouri River and settled among the Omahas.

And, sometimes in the past, we acquired half of their reservation. So, therefore, we have a reservation in Nebraska. Here, in the state of Wisconsin, we don’t have a reservation. We do have land that belongs to the Ho-Chunk, and I don’t know what that amount of land is. There are certain members that are just bound and determined that we need to get that land, and whatever. They have asked me what I thought. I am a member of the Elder Council, which is made up of elders from each of the clans, like we were set up at one time, and people come to us for advice. I told them, “All of this is sacred.” That’s what I’ve learned. I have no say so about what happens here on the ground. That’s Bear Clan responsibility. My responsibility is higher than that. They always call me one of those uppity Thunder Clan people. It’s jokingly referred to, but… I’d like to think that we’re apolitical, but we’re not.

[laughing]

Because we have, we have a lot of authority just because of being elder, being an elder.

[river water flowing]

I guess that’s just kind of a brief history from what I have heard. Grandpa could sit for hours and talk to me and tell me stories. Believe it or not, I was– I could sit and listen to him because it always amazed me. I guess we take a look at it, we think about it. It was just like… a book. A book that your mother or father grandmother or grandfather would be reading to you because it’s so interesting and it just had my rapt, you know, raptly intent on listening to what he said. Because I remember even going to bed at night and he’d be talking. I’d fall asleep and I’d wake up in the morning and he’d be talking again. I used to wonder, I’d think to myself, “Did he talk all night and I missed something?”

[laughing]

But, I think the things that were of import, you know, he told me many times. Same with my father. My father would tell me things. And then, someplace down the line again, he’d tell me again. And I never told him, “You already told me that.” I would just sit and listen to them and nod, and they’d ask me if I understood, and even though I didn’t understand, I’d say, “Yes.” I have told them to my children and my grandchildren, exactly what my grandfather told me, and exactly what my father told me. I blend history. I talk about our society. I talk about culture, just like I was sitting talking about the trees and the grass and the earth itself, the water, and the relationship that we have with them. Each of what we see here has a story. That’s part of our creation story. But it’s many stories that follow the main line. There’s the main stories, but there are many other little additions to it. So, even after all these years, I don’t think I know it all yet.

[laughing]

But there’s things that my grandfather has told me, that I don’t understand. Even to this day, I don’t understand. But, occasionally…

I might see something. I might experience something. I might hear something, and then a little bell goes off in my head. Ding! “Hmm, that’s what Grandpa was talking about.” I have to think about it. You know, it might puzzle me. You know, that causes me some puzzlement. Doing things like that, or hearing things like that, believing things like that makes us who we are. People often talk about culture and I say culture is something very, very difficult to teach. I hope that’s what I’m doing with my children, my grandchildren, and the younger people that come to me seeking advice or seeking a story. I hope that I’m making them understand who we are. I want them to be proud, you know, who they are. And who we are. I’m very, very proud that we still exist, that we still have our language, we still have our religions that we practice. We just finished off a weeklong ceremony here last week. We finished off, we started Monday and we finished Sunday. And I… I think I’m recovered from it.

[laughing]

Our ceremonies are, you know, they’re religious. Just like any religion that we have, it’s supposed to carry over into everyday things, and that’s the way our ceremonies are. The ceremony that we just finished is: we initiated a new member into our Medicine Lodge. And in doing so, we’re praying for a long, fruitful, productive life for him in the path that he’s taking, the path that he’s going to be on. I guess we spent the entire week telling him, telling about the road that he is going to travel now, the ways to conduct himself, and those kinds of things, and the understanding and the love that he should have for his fellow… fellow humans. We’re going to always be here. Whether we’ll be here in Ho-Chunk name only or whether we’re going to be here as Ho-Chunks. Our language is what makes us who we are and what we are.

Again, this relates back to a story. My grandfather said that we were given this language by Maa Una, God. And, as such, that it’s sacred. The language, to us, is sacred. That we should treat it that way. We should use it that way. And then he said that, “One of these days, this language is going be to gone, and when the language is gone that is the end of the world.” I guess when I was younger, I used to think about the modern things, what they think about in Christianity: the apocalypse, great fire, great storm, whatever else, and I thought it was completely the physical end of the world. But, as time has gone along, it’s one of those occasions, like I said, “Oh, that’s what Grandpa meant.” I see… I see us becoming, for lack of a better word, I see us becoming more and more “white” as we lose our language. I see that among many of the tribes that I’ve gone to. As they lose their language, they become more Europeanized, I guess,

[laughing]

Anglicized or whatever. And I see that’s what he meant. What we knew, what our grandparents knew, what our great grandparents knew, what they followed, it’s going to be gone. That’s why language… language is important to me. It’s very, very important to me because I do not want to see us lose the beautiful life that we have, that I’ve known. I don’t want to see that. I don’t want to see my children lose that. I don’t want to see my grandchildren lose that, my great-grandchildren lose that. I believe it’s important, and I do my best to maintain our language. In July, I was given the responsibility of taking a new apprentice and teaching him our language. I think he’s doing very well. I think that, in a matter of time, he’s going to be… he’s going to be an excellent speaker.

[music]

– To learn more about the sovereign Indian nations in Wisconsin, visit WisconsinAct31.org. To purchase a DVD of this and other Tribal Histories programs visit wpt.org or call (800) 422-9707.

[music]

– Ho-Chunk History was funded in part by Irene Daniell Kress, Francis A. and Georia F. Ariens Fund of the Community Foundation for the Fox Valley Region, Evjue Foundation, Ron and Patty Anderson, Ira and Ineva Reilly Baldwin Wisconsin Idea Endowment, National Endowment for the Humanities, and Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.