Director's Cut

We were making history, and it wasn't nice and clean. It wasn't easy, it was complex. -

Don Cornelius

From Chicago Illinois, the Mighty Chi-Lites. For God's sake, you got to give more power to the people There's some people up there hoggin' everything -

Jamal Joseph

The thing that led to the Panthers was what we were seeing on television every day, attack dogs, fire hoses, bombings. -

H. Rap Brown

We stand on the eve of a Black revolution, brothers. -

Jamal

Now we had the emergence of voices within the community, that were saying, "We're not gonna continue "to turn the other cheek." Hi, welcome to Director's Cut. I'm Pete Schwaba and that was a clip from

Black Panthers

Vanguard of the Revolution, a documentary about the rise and fall of the controversial Black Panther Party. We're thrilled today to welcome the film's director, Emmy-Award winner, Stanley Nelson. Stanley, welcome to Director's Cut. - Thanks. You know, there have been

a lot of stuff done about the Black Panthers

TV specials, films, documentaries, all that kind of stuff. What makes you as a filmmaker, as accomplished as you are, want to take a crack at this? Well, you know, there are a couple of reasons. Excuse me... (clears throat) I think that... As a filmmaker, if I told you there was one reason, that wouldn't be honest. So, there are a lot of reasons. I thought that, really, the story of the Panthers hadn't been told. They had been part of films, or there've been films about individual Panthers, but the story of the Black Panthers, kinda' the rise and fall, hadn't been told. That said, it's also that they were so sexy. You know, there were characters who were still alive who could tell the story. There was great footage, great stills, and great music that could help us tell the story, so... As a filmmaker, all of those things kind of go into the package that made me say, "Yeah, this is a story that I want to tell." Okay. You talked about the music. How hard is it to get-- I've kind of dealt with that a little bit on other projects. But, how hard is it to get good music that's probably going to run you a really high licensing fee? Does that factor in? You know, it's not as bad as people think to get music. You know, it might cost a few thousand dollars per song. I think that some of those stories that you hear about $25,000 for a song, or $50,000. You know, that might be for a feature film, a fiction film, a big time fictional film. But for a documentary film, I think now people are understanding that we don't have that kind of money. So, it does cost money. So, it depends. That said, (clears throat) excuse me again, we wanted to use a Jimi Hendrix song, "Voodoo Child" for the film. And, we just couldn't reach an agreement with Jimi Hendrix's Estate. It was really funny. They said, "We only want Hendrix music used if there's no sex, drugs, or violence." And we're like, "Well that takes the 60s out of the race." (laughing) There's no quilting in this. But, luckily, for PBS, we're able to kind of use on PBS the music that we want to use. Does it help that you've won Emmy's, do you think, and your reputation being as accomplished as you are? No, I think that probably hurts more. People want more money. Oh, okay. That's interesting. We'll take another look at a clip in a few seconds here, but of the three most famous Panthers-- who were probably Eldridge Cleaver, Bobby Seale, and Huey Newton-- who do you find most interesting? I think that they're all really interesting. I think Huey is probably the person that I find just the most fascinating because he was kind of the mastermind of it at the beginning. He goes to jail really early on, and is in jail for a long period of the Panther's history, but people still talk about him, who knew him, in this very mythical, strange way. And as the film goes on, we see the very kind of negative piece of Huey. But there's also this real reverence that people still have, who even were faced with the real kind of downside of Huey. And that's interesting to me. Yeah, well, let's take another look at

Black Panthers

Vanguard of the Revolution. -

Elbert

Black Panthers

Huey said, "We're gonna carry our guns, "and we're gonna follow the police, "and if they stop someone, "we're gonna stop, we're gonna maintain a legal distance, "and we're gonna observe these so-called law officers "in the performance of their duties." funk music -

Emory Douglas

Black Panthers

We were in the car, driving around, having fun. We would be lookin' at the pretty women, chasing the sistas. Then something might happen, and then all of the sudden the focus would just become serious. foreboding music -

Voiceover

Black Panthers

We're coming around the corner (mumbles) where you are. -

Sherwin Forte

Black Panthers

We would stop, we would get out of the cars. We would walk up to the scene. Those who had rifles, would carry them in the open. Clearly visible. We would stand at a distance, where the police couldn't say they were interfering with their arrest or their detention of the individual. And make sure that there was no brutality. -

Elbert Howard

Black Panthers

We stood back with our weapons, ready to throw down if necessary. They would take the weapon and pass it across like this. And it would sweep right over the officer. -

Sherwin Forte

Black Panthers

No one would do anything until a policeman ejected a round in the chamber. Then we would all eject rounds in the chamber, and all up and down the street you could hear this. (imitates rifles clicking) And then, when the traffic stop or the incident's over, they'd bring the weapon across by you like this, and get back in their car and drive off. It was pretty intimidating. -

Sherwin

Black Panthers

We referred to ourselves as "the vanguard", and we were setting by example, a new course, that we wanted the entire community to follow. foreboding music Talk a little bit about your decision not to use a narrator for the film. I'm glad you asked that. (laughing) Is it more challenging? And, if so, why? Yeah, that makes it all more challenging. I like to talk about, it's like high-diving in the Olympics. It's like the degree of difficulty just goes up when you don't have a narrator. It's harder to go from A to B, to say different things and to say them quickly. because somebody in the film has to say it. But I think what it does is it connects the audience to the film in a different way. Because there's no kind of 'Voice of God' talking from up here, telling you stuff. It's the people who were involved in the incident, in the movement, whatever, who are talking. So, I think it changes the connection between the audience and the film and I think that's a really good thing

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

Panthers, police, lawyers, other people, so that we could tell a story without a narrator. And that's what we did. - That's interesting. I didn't realize that there's like no middleman there. It's just them. Wow, that's very... well put. Can you talk a little bit about the parallels-- Like I'm looking at the Panthers holding guns, just inspecting the police and making sure there's no funny business, I guess. With all the stuff in the press lately, talk about the parallels. Could there be a new Black Panther movement? Maybe one that's older and wiser or learned from the mistakes of the Panthers? What do you think about that? -Well, I-- (clears throat) Excuse me. When we were making the film-- We started the film seven years ago, so I thought it was very relevant then. Then, as things have unfolded in the last few years, it's become even more relevant, obviously. You know, the whole 'Black Lives Matter' and all the very visible police shootings that have happened in the last few years. Also, states are re-instituting these open carry laws that allow you to carry guns out in the open. And the Panthers were kind of the result of that because there was a open carry law in California at that time that most people didn't know about. And Huey Newton and Bobby Seale found out about it and said, "Okay, we're going to carry guns, "and we're gonna follow the police." So that's what they did in the clip that you just saw. So, I think that's the other side of the open carry law that people don't talk about now. That, you are able, if you want, to police the police or police your own community. We'll see if that happens. I don't think that, in any way, the film is advocating a return to the Panthers, but I think it is saying, that this idea of a movement, of a do-it-yourself movement, can be an inspiring thought. The Panthers not only had this policing the police, but they'd go on to have breakfast programs and sickle cell anemia programs, and food give-aways, and a lot of other things that they'd do around the country. That's great. Well, let's take a look at another clip. old-timey newsreel music -

William Buckley

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

This week on Firing Line, my guest is Mr. Eldridge Cleaver, the information minister of the Black Panthers. -

Mark Kurlansky

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

Eldridge Cleaver comes out with this book, "Soul on Ice," a series of his essays from prison, and the New York Times says that it's brilliant, it gets onto the bestseller list. So when Eldridge joined the Panthers, the Panthers had gotten themselves a star, a literary star. -

Eldridge

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

I've been called by the National Review, the Goebbels of the Black Panther Party. And all of this is an attempt to undermine the party, or to give it a bad presentation to the public. -

Clayborne Carson

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

Huey Newton always had this vision. He was the visionary of our party. Bobby Seale, he had the personality. Eldridge Cleaver was the person who made the party credible to Black intellectuals, to the white left intellectuals. You know, all of them loved Eldridge Cleaver, they understood what he was talking about, or at least they thought they did. -

Felipe Luciano

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

Eldridge had this incredible ability to encapsulate a thought in a few sentences, and form it into an artistic statement that pointed right at, stabbed right into the heart of the enemy, and he did that all of the time. (applause) Now, was he always correct, no. -

Elridge

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

I say that Ronald Reagan is a punk, a sissy and a coward. (laughter) And I challenge you to a duel. I challenge you. I challenge him to a duel, to the death or until he says, "Uncle, Eldridge". -

Felipe

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

Was he insane? #### yeah! That boy was crazy! And he got a lot of people hurt! -

Eldridge

so we felt that there were a lot of witnesses around

And I give him his choice of weapon. He could use the gun, a knife, a baseball bat, or a marshmallow, and I'll beat him to death with a marshmallow. (laughter) You don't see people beaten with marshmallows nearly enough in our society, I think. Yesterday, I heard you talking. You said that you like to keep humor in your film as long as possible. Can you talk a little bit about that? I mean, my background is in comedy, and I was fascinated by that because you were talking about Jonestown. And I was like, "Wow, that's a dark subject, "and you want to keep humor in it." Is it written in in any way or do you just look for it and try to keep it? We just really look for it, you know. You never know what people are going to say. Felipe Luciano, in the clip we just saw, talking about Eldridge is hilarious. The Eldridge clip where he's challenging Ronald Reagan to a duel. We saw early on-- It was-- We saw it on YouTube before we even started production, really. We said, "Okay, this has got to be in the film," Because not only is it funny, but it says something about that time. When somebody's at a public speech challenging the governor-- Reagan was the governor of California at that point-- challenging them to a duel. So, comedy is really important for me when these subjects are so serious. So, anything that we have that's funny, we kind of-- even if we can't find a place to use it, we put it in a bin in the edit machine. We say, "Hey, put that in the funny bin, "and let's try to figure out how to roll it in there." To kind of relieve it, to relieve the tension. I mean, it's not-- It's a serious subject, but every moment of the film can't be serious. Right... It's great that he said, "duel", too. If he said fight, it's not as funny, but a "duel"... (laughing) - It's hilarious because, you know, the imagery that Eldridge is using, you can see Eldridge and Ronald Reagan fighting with marshmallows. (laughing) That's ridiculous. You said also that it took you seven years to complete this film. What is the most time-consuming component of making a film like this? Raising the money. Raising the money. And raising the money. The hardest part of making a documentary film for most filmmakers is raising the money. And, so, that is always... adds to the time of making this film. So, I think the only good thing that I can say about raising the money and the amount of time it takes, and seven years, is that it allows you to get deeper into your subject. It allows people who first say they don't want to be in the film, to have time to think it over, and you come back after a year or two, and maybe they agree. So, hopefully, you know, you're spending that seven years not just kind of scratching your head, but also making the film deeper. So you do it in stages then? Like you'll raise some and then shoot some-- I try not to. I try, try, try and I've been able to do this is to raise all the money and then start. Now, you know, some other money may kind of, you know, kind of come in later on. And you're like, "Oh, we got a little bit more money. "We can edit for another couple weeks." But, you want to have the money in place because every decision depends in some way on money so if you only have half the money, how you know what you're going to do? Oops. - Yeah, yeah. Let's see another clip from

Black Panthers

Vanguard of the Revolution. -

Donna Murch

Black Panthers

Just at the moment that the Panthers are turning towards survival programs, towards free breakfast programs, free clinics, and free food programs that will help them reconnect with the Black community and build their membership, and repudiating this earlier, advocacy of armed self-defense and police patrols, J. Edgar Hoover attacks the Panthers. Hoover saw any form of Black organizing as a threat to the status quo as he saw it. Change that would have involved equality, that would have put power in Black people's hands, was very much a threat to Hoover.

Jeff Haas

Black Panthers

He started something called COINTELPRO, directed against what he called, "Black nationalist hate groups". COINTELPRO was the abbreviation of Counter Intelligence Program. -

Voiceover

Black Panthers

The purpose of this new counterintelligence endeavor is to expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, or otherwise neutralize the activities of Black nationalists. -

Wesley

Black Panthers

Neutralize could mean making somebody an informant, or putting somebody in jail, or having somebody killed. Hoover was sending letters to various offices, almost on a weekly basis to come up with new ideas to go after members of the Black Panther Party. What was it like for you watching the Super Bowl halftime show and seeing Beyonc and the background dancers? Talk a little bit about that. Well, you know, like millions of Americans, I was sitting there watching the Super Bowl and when Beyonc came out and, you know, that the dancers were wearing their berets and they had the kind of Afros-- this whole Black Panther iconography... We're in shock, you know? (laughing) And we're like, "Oh, my God!" Are we seeing this?" And, you know, it was... we were with a bunch of people who had worked on the film. And we're like, "Oh, my God! Is it just us?" And then, we started to get phone calls and tweets and emails and it was like, "Oh, I guess everybody saw that." So, it's interesting 'cause I think that the Black Panthers are really kind of in the air and in the ethos right now. I have to admit, I didn't notice them 'cuz when Beyonc... They could have been wearing clogs and thongs, for all I know. (laughing) They actually were, so you missed that. Oh, good thing I TiVo'd it. With all incendiary language between the police, the government, the Panthers are you surprised that there wasn't more violence? There was a lot of words and there was violence, no doubt, but it seems like it could've gone much worse? I think, you know, there was a lot of violence-- I think the most amazing thing, though, is that because of the police patrols that the Panthers started out doing in Oakland there was no violence. And I think that is amazing. That part of it is amazing. I think that there was a certain amount of violence as things went on. In the last clip, we see J. Edgar Hoover kind of turns his attention on to the Black Panthers and really sets the FBI and local police on the Panthers. He says that the Panthers are the greatest internal threat to the security of the United States which for the local police were like, "Okay, if the FBI is saying these is the greatest threat, we've got to stop them." And I think that's when the violence kind of ratchets up. Talk a little bit about the challenges you face-- I mean, you've been doing this for decades now. What are the challenges that you had early on as a documentarian and how are they different now if they are different? You know, I think it was harder to raise money. It was harder to be taken seriously about what you want, what I wanted to do. I think, though, that the challenges of making films haven't changed. You know, I still-- It's not easy, you know. It's very stressful and you don't feel that, "Okay, I got this." And people think that you should, as a filmmaker. Oh, you made a good film so... But, I think they understand it when you compare it to writing. You know, if you've written a book, a decent book, that doesn't in the next one is going to be decent. So, you know, every film is very hard and I've tackled subjects that are important to me, you know, the freedom riders, the murder of Emmett Till, you know, the Black Panthers and so I feel like there's somebody sitting on my shoulder, you know, that little devil in the ear saying, "Stanley, don't mess this up." "Stanley, don't mess this up." "Stanley, don't mess this up." Every project, you have your panic moments, regardless of... I have one huge-- I mean, it seems like I'm in panic for like months. Good to know that it never goes away. Let's see another clip. -

Fred

Black Panthers

These people in this class have divided themselves, they say, "I'm Black and I hate white people," "I'm white and I hate Black people." "I'm Latin American and I hate hillbillies." "I'm a hillbilly, I hate Indians." So we fighting amongst each other. -

Mike

Black Panthers

Fred Hampton here in Chicago was the main voice for racial unity. -

Fred

Black Panthers

Stood up and said, we don't care what anybody said, we don't make it fight fire with fire business, we make it fight fire with water business. We're gonna fight racism, not with racism, but we're gonna fight with solidarity. -

Michael

Black Panthers

We worked with organizations such as the Young Lords, a Puerto Rican street gang that had become political. And the Young Patriots, hillbillies. Appalachian white boys. -

Michael

Black Panthers

Bob Lee, who was our deputy field marshal, had a meeting with them, and he was explaining why we should work together. -

Landon

Black Panthers

The coalition that Fred was building in Chicago, represented the Latinos, poor whites, and poor Blacks. But also because he had been in NAACP, he had linkages with folks who were in the congregations, church folks, and with working-class folks. So Fred was building a broad-based coalition in Chicago and that was the threat. soft, foreboding music J. Edgar Hoover most feared young whites uniting with the Blacks' struggle. And he was most afraid of a, what he called a "Black messiah", arising up out of this movement. -

Mike

Black Panthers

Fred Hampton was very good at running an organization, he could delegate responsibility, he would spot talent. The one thing that he failed to spot, however, was, the FBI plant, who was, of course, his personal bodyguard. This film is, as I understand, the first part of a three-part series called America Revisited. Can you tell us about the next two films, or talk about them a little bit? - Sure, sure. American Revisited is kind of a very loosely-linked piece on African American history, so the first is

the Black Panthers

Vanguard of the Revolution. The next is a film on historic black colleges and universities and their role in American history. So we're working on that now. And then the third film is a piece on the Atlantic slave trade and looking at the slave trade as a business. As this huge business that involved not only Europe, but Africa and the New World, both North and South America. Hmm. So, when will those films-- Are you already working on them or are they down the road somewhere? Wrong question... (laughing) So, we're working on them now. We're working on the film on historic black colleges right now. We've been shooting it and we're actually in editing so we're hoping to finish that in the fall. Then, we'll start on the slave trade. So, it's kind of one, then the next, then the next. What would, in your opinion, Fred Hampton's legacy have been, do you think, had he lived? He was kind of the... he was the 'messiah', supposedly, of the party that they feared and he was their uniter. What what would've happened, do you think? It's hard to say what exactly would have happened but I think the thing to understand is that Fred Hampton was a little bit different from everybody else. Fred Hampton was young. He was in Chicago. He was uniting not only African Americans, but Latinos and poor whites. He had had this history of... He was a youth leader in the NAACP for Illinois, I believe. And so, he had this history in the traditional civil rights movement. I think he was really a special human being. He's like 20 years old in the clip that we saw. That's what's so crazy! And he was, unfortunately, assassinated. And that the fact that the U.S. government could be so fearful of a 20 year-old black kid from Chicago. Just 'cause he was bringing people-- That's what I found fascinating about him......how energetic and charismatic he was, you know. We had about 30 seconds left. I wish we had more time, but... What is your favorite element of this film? What's the part of the story you like to tell the most? I love the whole film. I am really proud of the film. I think it ties a lot of things together. And I think you know, for me, the bottom line is that it's entertaining. That that's what we're trying to do. Finally, it's an entertainment-- You know, you can change the channel. We're hoping that the film grabs you and doesn't let you go. Well, great job! It was a real honor to have you here, and it was great meeting you. Excellent job on the film! And good luck with the other two installments, too. Okay, thanks. And thank you for watching Directors Cut.

For more information on Black Panthers

Vanguard of the Revolution please go to wpt.org and click on Director's Cut. While you're there, send us an email or find out how to submit a film. Also, don't forget to "like" WPT on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. I'm Pete Schwaba. We'll see you next time on Director's Cut. -

Jamal

For more information on Black Panthers

We made mistakes. We charged ahead too fast, were too arrogant sometimes. We certainly underestimated the police, and the government, in terms of the response to the Black Panther Party. But I think what remains true, the central guiding principle was, an undying love for the people.