Director's Cut

>> But when you were working, during your working day, you were in the military, right? >> Military, yeah. >> What did you do in the military? >> My job in the military was maintenance officer and logistics. This is from World War II. And of course when I made warrant officer it was a proud day in my life. You know, I come from a family of 15. And my father, he was interested in his children being educated since he wasn't educated himself, and when I made warrant officer it was one proud man. >> Welcome to Director's Cut. I'm Pete Schwaba, and that was a clip from Clarence, a documentary about a Milwaukee man who goes back to finish college at the ripe young age of 85. We are joined today by the film's director, producer and editor, Kristin Catalano. Welcome to Director's Cut, Kristin. >> Thank you for having me. >> So okay, back to school at 85. I thought I was a procrastinator. What's this guy's problem? No--

LAUGHTER

Tell us about Clarence. How did you find this project? >> Well, I've known Clarence since I was about eight years old. >> Oh, really? >> So he was the mechanic at our family warehouse grocery store. And so when I was sweeping the floors down there when I was a little kid he was working on the trucks. And so I worked there until, teenage years, and then went off to college. Then came back when I'd come back for summer and stuff like that. So he was always there, always asking, "What are you learnin'? What are you goin' to school for?" So he was always just that bright character. >> He's been on your radar for a long time. >> Yeah. >> So when did you finally decide, you know-- I mean, you went to UCLA. I read that in your bio. When did you decide, I gotta put this guy on film. >> So I made a short documentary in a documentary coarse I took there, and then after I graduated I just liked the idea of being able to make something on your own, without-- Because my background's in screenwriting. And there you need the okay, you know. But this was something I could make on my own. And so the first character I thought of was Clarence. I didn't know what it was going to be on exactly. It wasn't until I went back and interviewed him a couple of times, and he said his biggest regret was not finishing college and he was looking into it. And he had his brochure there, and it was just like, all right. >> Hold on, let me get the camera. >> Yeah. Whenever that time comes, let me know. >> So is that what motivated him? I mean, he was talking about his father in that opening clip, how proud he was of him. But what do you think really made him say, I've got to-- Because he didn't have to finish college. I mean, he's 85, you know. >> Yeah. Education was all he talked about all the time to everybody. That's just-- He preached education. He sent all of his kids to private schools. He worked two to three jobs just to get all of his kids a great education. Like he said about his father, his father always liked education and pushed him towards that. It wasn't until later in life that he even finished high school. He was 33 years old. So I think he just understood the importance of education and just wanted it for himself when he had the time. >> Good for him. You know, do you ever think, like, how do I have enough material? He's a guy nobody's ever heard of outside his circles. But did you think, as a filmmaker, I gotta make a full movie out of this one guy. Is that a challenge, making it interesting? >> I had 300 hours. >> Oh, my gosh. >> And he's such a character that it was hard to trim it down. >> You weren't worried about it. >> No, not at all. Not at all. >> It could have been a mini-series of Clarence. >> Yes, yes, 'cause he's so engaging and entertaining and gregarious that watching him do anything is entertaining. >> Definitely. Well, let's see another clip from Clarence. >> I'd like to apply for my transcript. >> Did you take classes at MATC? >> Ma'am? >> Did you take classes at MATC? >> Oh, absolutely. I sure did! >> Okay, what you need to do is fill out the blue form. >> Yeah, the dates I don't remember. >> We need an idea of when you-- >> Sorry. >> We need an idea of when you started taking classes here. >> Okay... I don't know. >> Yeah, they lost it, Karen. >> Huh? >> She's going to have to put you in the system because you haven't been her for a while. >> That's for sure.

LAUGHTER

You sure can't deny that! So you did find in, huh? >> Yeah, yeah. I was praying. >> Huh? >> I was praying. >> You wasn't prayin' as hard as I was.

LAUGHTER

Beautiful! This represents one year. Huh? Say what? You don't think anything. You can do anything you put your mind to it, you know. No big deal. I did pretty good. >> So what I'll do is first tell you where you are within your degree. As you can tell, that you do have 68 completed credits. >> 68? >> 68. So you're a little over half way finished. So you just need 52 more credits in order to get your Bachelor of Arts degree from UWM. >> Well, that's wonderful. >> That's very good. >> What is your major? >> I have no major. A person who was enrolled in college before 1976 could pick any subject matter in which to gain a Bachelor's degree, so that exempts me from selecting a major. How're you doin'? >> Good, how're you? >> Beautiful. >> All right. >> There you go. You're all set. >> In plastic and everything.

LAUGHTER

That ain't bad. >> Have a good day. >> Thank you! Thank you kindly. >> Let me see. >> Huh? >> Let me see it. >> We're back with Kristin Catalano, the director of Clarence. You know, they say making movies with kids or children can be challenging. Talk about the challenges of shooting with a main character that's as old, and at times, certainly as the filming progressed, as frail as Clarence. >> Yeah, it was very hard not to help him. >> Okay. >> Because he did struggle with walking even, and he did not what to take an elevator. So he'd-- I mean he just wanted to do everything. >> Why didn't he want to take an elevator? Just 'cause he wanted to-- >> That's just the way he is. Like he was just like, "I can do it, come on." >> Yeah. I own these steps. >> Yeah. And then just asking people-- It's a campus, a big campus. Not as big as here, but it's a big campus. And asking for directions and going across campus when it's not the right building. Everyone knows that feeling, being a new student on campus. You don't know where you're going. You walking all the way around campus, up the stairs, down the stairs. So it was hard not to help him, because I know that campus especially, to be like, it's right there. >> Did you ever get impatient? >> No. >> No? Okay. >> At the beginning, a couple of times, he looked to me for assistance, but I just didn't. And that was hard. That was hard for me to say, no. >> You know, I always think if I went back to college now I'd be a much better student, you know, older, hopefully wiser. Was that the case for Clarence? He did well in his classes we saw, but do you think, or does he think maybe, you know this, that he was a better student now than he would have? Or did his age present challenges in learning at all? >> There was challenges with learning, but he still was a better student because he was more dedicated. But he did say that he had to read the books three times instead of just once because of his memory. >> Yeah. >> And the computer was a big challenge for him. He never used a computer before and his teachers wanted his papers typed. So that was difficult for him, learning a whole new skill set like that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, but speeches and anything like that, where he had to get up in front of the class and present material that he had lived already. He loved that, he loved that. >> Yeah, you could tell. He was like-- You know, he's so, um-- He's so upbeat. What kind of an effect did that have on you as a filmmaker? And did you ever want him-- Were you ever worried, like, my movie's going to be too happy with this guy. Did you want a darker side? Or something else to come out, a personality trait that made it a little more interesting cinematically? >> No, because I think everybody that meets Clarence, that's what they see and that's what they think and that's what they remember. >> I didn't like the guy.

LAUGHTER

>> He's impossible not to like. So I never had to worry about that. And actually he made me feel more comfortable as a filmmaker. Because there were times when, you know, you have to get permission from people to film them. "What do you mean?" "Come on!" "Of course they want to be on camera." "Why wouldn't they?" "Come on!" So it's like, okay, you know. So he kind of made me more outgoing than I am just by his personality. >> I can see that, yeah. Did he have to get-- When he enrolled in UWM, which is the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, did he have to get accepted, or did he get, you know, did his age or military background help him get accepted? Was there a process there? How was that? >> He had taken classes before at UW-Extension, so it was before it was UWM. So he was already, I guess, kind of, you know, when you have credits at an institution already I think you're kind of-- >> Right. >> Accepted, so-- >> Although his might have been before it was an actually university. >> I know. I was surprised they found him all, that they had all those records. But yeah, he had to apply as a returning student. >> And how much of a process was it? Were they helpful? >> Oh, yeah, yeah. He had a wonderful advisor, Susan Fields. She was with him for the whole way and helped with everything, yeah. >> That's excellent. Well, great. Let's see another clip from Clarence. >> Mr. Garrett, how'd you experience the first week in school? >> Oh, enjoyed myself, and had an opportunity to observe the younger generation growin', and having them say, I wish I'd be like you.

LAUGHTER

>> Mr. Garrett, do you have any words of wisdom? About anything, you know. What'd you do in the CC Camp. >> What'd I do in the CC Camp? >> What I did in CC Camp? As under President-- >> Civilian Conservation Corp. >> Roosevelt. >> Mm-hmm. >> The reason why Roosevelt started that program, the poverty was so bad that to sort of keep the criminal elements off the streets he started the CC Camp. I was in the forestry camp, where I learned diesel mechanics. >> So was it primarily black? >> 100%. 100%. And of course in the Navy yard, when I worked in the Navy yard, they had white water, colored water, white restrooms, black restrooms. What made it so good was the white water always broke down.

LAUGHTER

>> Is that right? >> Oh, yeah.

LAUGHTER

>> Okay, so he's like the most upbeat guy you've ever met. He's basically a comedian. There was a point in the film where I'm goin', I'm not buyin' this. No one's that happy! I mean, especially a guy like Clarence lived through a world war, very racially tough times for African-Americans, certainly in the early part of his life, worked two jobs. I mean, did you ever get a sense that there was a different side to him or he was compensating-- A lot of comedians, you know, they compensate for anger by making jokes. Did you ever sense that? >> No, I think he worked at his happiness, just like he worked at going to school. >> Interesting. >> Like he worked at getting up in racks in the Army. >> Right. >> I think he just realized that you only live once. You have one shot at it, you only live once. And so be a good person, be a happy person. Give it all you've got. >> Yeah. >> So I don't think happiness is 100% natural to any of us. But he wanted to be happy and he wanted to make people feel happy and special, and that's how he presented himself. >> So I don't imagine there was a huge demand for Clarence's hoop talents in intramurals, or La Crosse talents. Did he do anything extra curricular? Did he get involved in student activities or anything like that while he was there? >> No, not really. He did go on... a couple... >> Field trips? >> Well, he went to a basketball game. >> I saw, that was a great scene. >> No, he wasn't really involved in anything outside of school. I mean, he was busy studying those books. >> So how do you, as a filmmaker-- You said you have 300 hours. How do you decide? I mean, you're film is 75 minutes long. How do you decide what goes in from 300 hours to 75 minutes? And how time consuming is that, too? >> Well, I knew that I wanted it to show, chronologically show him going through the process to the end, whatever the end may be. >> We won't give that away. >> No, we won't give that away. But it was just like writing a script, so my screenwriting background definitely helped with that. Because when you're editing you're telling the story. So I would just say, is this essential to the story? If not, cut it. Is this essential to the story? Is it giving some type of information that the audience needs? If not, cut it. So it was a process. My first cut was maybe 25 minutes longer than the final cut. So it was a process of just trimming, trimming, trimming. >> Did you show him cuts? Or did you only show it to him when it was done? What was his reaction to the film? >> He did see it. >> That was when his dark side came out.

LAUGHTER

He hated it! No. >> He really liked it, he did. >> Did he? Okay. >> He liked it. I think he thought it was a little strange seeing himself up on the big screen, you know? But you could tell he enjoyed seeing himself up there. >> Right. It seems like that's the kind of thing a guy like that lives for. >> Yeah. >> Somebody want's to tell my story, you know? >> Yeah. >> But I'll say this, as gregarious and outgoing as he was, his family didn't seem like they were as comfortable being on camera. Was it hard to get those interviews with people around him? Were they reluctant? Or how willing were they? >> They were willing to participate. I don't think they enjoyed it like he did. And I wouldn't either, really. Some people are naturals in front of the camera and like that attention. And Clarence is one of those people. Brooks, his friend, is one of those people. >> Right. >> But other people are more reserved and a little more shy in front of the camera. But they were definitely willing to participate. >> Yeah, and as nice a guy as Clarence seems, he does strike ma as the kind of guy where if he was done he would just tell ya, "Forget it." "We're done." You know, was he like that? Or was he totally at your mercy? >> If he doesn't want to do something, he won't do it. But he kind of goes in a subtle way about it. Like I remember a couple of times I wanted him-- I knew that he was going to be filmed or his pictures taken. Clarence, why don't you put this other-- You know, you should dress up a little bit today. "No, they don't want that." You know.

LAUGHTER

In other words, "No, I'm wearing this today". >> Right, well, you just mentioned Brooks. We're about to see a little bit of Brooks with Clarence in this next clip from Clarence. >> Yup. >> Okay, thank you! >> Have a good day. >> Come on in! >> Okay, I'm comin'. >> The professor requires that each of his students conduct and interview with an African-American in an urban area. How long have you lived in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? >> Oh, I came here at the age of eight years of age. And I've lived in Milwaukee for about 40 years. >> Now, you told me you've lived here 55 years? >> 40, 47 years I've lived here. >> Huh? >> 47 years I've lived here. >> What is the highest grade you completed in school? >> Mmmm, I completed-- >> You finished the 12th grade? >> I finished the 12th-- >> That's the highest grade you completed. >> And, ah-- >> The other things don't count. >> Oh. >> Where were you born? >> Monticello, Arkansas. >> What year? >> Ahh, 6/14/1942, but, ahh-- >> You're birth date, your birth certificate, says you were born in 1937! >> Yeah, but-- >> There's no but in it! Your birth certificate is the same thing they go by! >> They had a mixture. >> There ain't no mixture. 13th of June you'll be 70 years old. >> Umm. >> And that's on your official birth record! >> Clarence, now I'd like to ask you a question. Huh? >> Feel free! >> Okay.

LAUGHTER

>> Get outta here. See what I tell you? See that crap? Plain ignorance. >> That's my favorite clip, I think, in the movie. Talk a little bit about Brooks and Clarence, their relationship. How did that come to be? What's their relationship like? >> Well, they've known each other for many, many years. I would categorize it as being like an older-brother... younger-brother relationship. Brooks had a little bit of dementia and Clarence definitely-- >> Because he was a boxer, we saw. >> Yeah, and Clarence definitely protected him and helped him, because people would try to take advantage of him. So all of that about his birth certificate, Clarence knows all of that because he would do his taxes for him and do his social security forms, or whatever, for him. So the reason he has a Highlighter in his hand is he already filled out the answers. And I was like, Clarence, you have to interview him. "Oh, I already know what the answers are." No, but for the class your supposed to interview somebody. >> Okay. >> So then when he came over, that's why the arguments. 'Cause Clarence had already had the answers down. >> It's just a staging. >> Yes. >> Talk a little bit about-- You know, movie sets are so-- the relationships you make are so intense because they're short and you're working towards a goal and there's a frantic pace. I know you didn't have a big crew, but talk about your relationship with the rest of the cast, I guess you'd say, or crew that you had. What was that like? >> Oh, I had a lot of-- Well, I shouldn't say a lot of people, but I had a few people that really helped me dramatically. My friend Daniel Alvarado knows everything about the camera, microphones, editing. So he's my go-to guy if I have any questions. Very, very helpful and patient with me. Chris Chuzles helped with the music recording, all the website stuff, other technical things. Frank Calarco is a friend of mine and did all the music. >> Where you close with the family? I mean, you knew Clarence. Did you know his kids before you started this? Did you know that they would be helpful? >> I knew the kids, but not that well. I knew them from the store, 'cause you know, they'd come in with Clarence. >> Sure. >> I didn't know them that well, but they're all so nice. They're just so nice, and they're a lot like Clarence. So I bonded with the kids and his wife, Mary, as well too. I mean, I'm still friends with the family, yeah. >> So you directed it, produced it, you were the editor. That's a lot of hats. And on a low budget film, you don't really have a choice. You have to do all those things. What was your favorite hat? >> Probably the editing, 'cause it's closer to writing. >> Yeah, and you're closer to the finish line, too. >> Yeah. Even though it was a lot, and a lot of time and a lot of cutting down. But I'm not that comfortable with the camera. >> Yeah, you mean using the camera, shooting. >> Yeah. >> But you did, you shot the whole thing. >> I did, I did. And I'm self-taught, so I had a lot of-- That's why I kept asking my friends so many questions about, you know, how do you do this? How do you do that? >> Yeah, right. Did Clarence ever go to, like, a kegger?

LAUGHTER

Come on, right? You would love to-- >> He doesn't drink. He doesn't drink. >> See, I'm going to find a chink in this guys armor. No one is this perfect. >> He never drank, I know. >> Yeah. >> It would have been fun if he went to a kegger, I'm sure. >> What was it like for you following him around? Did you get looks from people on campus? >> I'm pretty good at avoiding eye contact. >> You were holding a camera. >> So, yeah. And he just-- I think more people were focused on him than me. So I was able to be kind of a fly on the wall pretty quickly, with him as well. I mean, I don't even think he noticed I was carrying a camera. A lot of time he'd try to have a conversation with me, and it's like--

whispers

I can't respond, really. >> Right. Well, let's see another clip from Clarence. >> Five o'clock they came and got him and taken him down to surgery. And then they decided they had to give him some more blood, so then that was another 30 minutes. And after then, they brought him back up to the room about nine PM. And from then on he seemed to be doin' good. And today he's completely out of it. So I hope tomorrow will be a better day. >> He was always a good father. He was what you would call the ultimate provider. You know, he provided everything for us growing up. We were very fortunate kids to have him as a provider. >> I always tell people, I have no excuse not to work hard, because my father always worked hard. >> When we went to the private school he worked the two jobs. So most of the time he was gone during the day. But he always would find the time to take us places and do things. >> I think when you're growing up really don't think about what your parents are trying to do, or you don't really appreciate the sacrifices, until you become an adult and you look back at what your parents have done for you in order to provide you with the best. >> I asked you before about your patience with your subject, Clarence, his age being a factor. But that's a two-way street when you're being filmed all the time. And you touched on this a little bit but what was his tolerance level on how he dealt with being followed around. This had to be-- How long was this, a couple years? >> Yeah. >> Okay, okay. So how did-- Was he patient with you? >> He liked it. >> Yeah? >> Yeah, he liked it. I mean, we were best friends. We really were complete best friends. We hung out every day, talk to each other several times a day. I mean, it wasn't just the camera stuff. We'd go out to lunch, we'd go have tea. >> Was there ever a moment, like when you're hangin' out with him and you're like, oh, I wish I had the camera on for that! >> Yeah, for sure. >> Tell me one. Give me an example. >> I remember getting a little audio recorder in the car and putting it in there, 'cause he would just talk and say the funniest things. And I was like, oh, I could maybe use some of this. But then it becomes even more stuff to go through. >> Yeah, right. >> Then I had all this audio recording. He always had something interesting to say, he always had a lesson to teach you. >> Yeah, he had some great speeches, and you could tell it was his own philosophy on life. He had really thought about this and how precious life is and he kind of attacked it, you know? It was really inspiring. Talk about UWM a little bit. Were they helpful? Or did you have any hurdles with clearance issues? Did you have any trouble getting clearance to Clarence. >> No, they were pretty good about it. I had to go through the chancellor's office and get a release just to film on UWM, and then I had to go to each individual teacher and get permission. And then made an announcement at the beginning of the class and all the students had to say they were okay with it. There were a couple teachers that didn't want me to film. But it was fine because I had more than enough classroom footage. >> Yeah. They seemed like they were pretty-- They all seemed like they liked Clarence, although the one guy seemed like he had a different philosophy or political slant than Clarence, but then they show them talking at the end. >> Yeah. >> So we have about 30 seconds left. Back to the documentary drawing board for you? Are you going to stick with the narrative stuff? What are you thinkin'? >> Well, I want the documentary to reach as many people as possible, because I think it can inspire a lot of people to just push ahead and complete any goal that they want. >> Yeah. >> For me, I'm going back to the writing for a little while. >> Okay. >> I'm working on a pilot script. >> Great! Well, you've been a great guest, and we loved your film. Thanks a lot for being here today, Kristin. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're welcome. And thank you for watching Director's Cut. For more information on Clarence please go to wpt.org and click on Director's Cut. While you're there send us an e-mail or find out how to submit a film. Also, don't forget to like Wisconsin Public Television on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. That's getting really popular these days. I'm Pete Schwaba, and I no longer feel ashamed for taking 11 years to finish college. We'll see you next time on Director's Cut. >> How far you go in life depends on your being tender to the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerance of the weak and the strong. Because some day in life, you will have been there. Thank you.

CHEERS AND APPLAUSE