Director's Cut

>> Hi, welcome to Director's Cut. I'm Pete Schwaba, and that was a clip from "Sign Painters," a documentary that looks at the little-known craft and history of sign painting, both before and after the invention of the ink jet printer. We'd like to welcome to Director's Cut the film's co-directors, Faythe Levine and Sam Macon. Thanks for being here today. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's a great clip, and great movie about this, I have to be honest, I'm so ignorant, I never even knew these people existed, you know? My whole life, I've been looking at these great signs. Then I'm watching the movie going, oh, yeah, duh, somebody actually had to do that work. These guys really are artists, aren't they? >> Yeah, absolutely, though they sometimes, some of the people we interviewed could be frustratingly like, unwilling to acknowledge that they were artists. They'd say no, I'm a laborer or I'm a tradesman. Or, you know, this is my job. I wanted to be an artist, but I became a sign painter instead. I mean, to us, it looked like, you know, incredibly accomplished work. >> Yeah. >> In our eyes. >> They were hesitant to say they were artists, because not everyone would identify as an artist. >> What do you think? >> Well, I think that both Sam and I would say that it's up to the person to define themselves as what they would prefer to be defined as. There are sign painters who have art careers aside from their sign painting work, and some people mix it together. So, it depends on the person. >> But similar to your point, I mean, when Faythe brought up this whole idea of making this documentary about sign painting, initially I had a similar Epiphany, where even though I always had sort of been attracted to, you know, older signage or well done hand painted signage, I had never really put it together that that was like a career that someone had, let alone a whole industry of people who did that. That's sort of the curse, but also what's really great about it is that they've always sort of been there. These signs have always been there, sign painters have always been around doing this work, but sort of hiding in plain sight. >> Would you think they're accepted in the art world as artists, or they kind of looked down upon, would you say? >> I would say that when it was a bigger industry, and it was more the way you would get a sign made, it was so purely in the vocational realm and the labor realm, that I don't think it's ever been considered in the gallery setting, beyond maybe like folk museums or outsider artists shows. There are examples of sign painting techniques and sign work finding its way into fine art, but that's usually artist motivated, because they've set out to do work of that nature. >> Contemporary based, and I think traditionally sign painting was taught like in a trade school or vocational situation. >> I saw where they had sign school, and I was like, that's a real school, you know, that's where you learn this craft. >> Right, and similarly to like maybe showing up at a broadcast class and saying, I want to be a filmmaker, it was almost maybe discouraged the more artistic driven guys showing up to sign school. If they were like, I want to be an artist. They'd be like, then you're in the wrong class. >> Let's see another clip from "Sign Painters." >> It's a good 150 years old, and it all started when growers and manufacturers started to badge their products. Before that, you know, you went to the general store and said, "I want five pounds of flour," and they had a barrel there of flour and they'd fill it up a canvas bag with five pounds in there, but you didn't know where it came from, I mean it was just, you know. People'd say, "Gee, you know that flour I got here the last time, that wasn't as good as the flour I got before." It just came in a barrel, you didn't know. So manufacturers said, "Geez, we gotta sell our product because out product is better than our competitor's." They didn't have a big, uh, agencies on Madison Avenue creating advertising campaigns for these companies. And so it was the sign painters that did this. >> It started going from an identification, identifying what the building was, and what was in it, what they sold, what merchandise it was. And it started slowly turning into an advertising medium. Not only can it identify what's in this building, but we can tell the public we've got better deals than my neighbor, or we've got something you should come and look at. So it started to evolve itself into, not only an identification, but an advertising medium. >> Everything needed to be done by someone who had lettering skills. Who had lettering skills? Your local sign man. That's who had lettering skills. >> So, what I found really interesting, too, watching this, is that somebody during the film says it takes years to perfect this. Talk a little bit about the process of what you have to do to become a sign painter. >> Well, because there's varying ways that people learn the trade, which would go from like a tech school like Los Angeles Technical Trade College, where Doc Guthrie, who you just saw, is still teaching traditional sign graphics, from learning starting with a pencil, through to a brush, through to modern, you know, computer skills, from doing an apprenticeship, either formal or informal. I think the minimum time that people say to be, you know... >> Competent, I guess. >> A journeyman. >> Or a journeyman, who would be like a very established sign painter. >> Five years? >> Yeah, five to seven years, is the years that we heard. To even begin to say that you are competent at it takes a long time. I mean, LA Trade Tech is one of the last technical colleges that exists in the country. So, if you didn't do that, and those were a lot more available back in the day, you would convince a sign painter to be an apprentice. They would say, well, can you paint, and you'd say, no, I don't. And then they'd be like, well, get out of here, I can't use you. >> Right. >> Then if you were to go away and learn the skills and come back, they'd be like, no, get away, you're going to steal all my business. So it was really hard to kind of get into. But no matter, I think, how you began, it really starts with like the absolute fundamental study of just letter formation. They're just drawing these like stroke charts. >> Learning the muscle memory of the strokes. And you know, the trade used to be a lot more competitive when the industry was at its height, so it was a lot more difficult for people who were interested in getting into the industry, if you didn't, you know, have, if your father didn't own a sign shop, or you weren't kind of like brought into it through the family business, to get into the industry, you kind of had to navigate through these different channels, and then really hustle your way, either into an agency that employed sign painters or you know, travel around and pick up jobs that way. Then there were these mom and pop shops. The industry was a lot different when it was at its height, as opposed to now, where a lot of the old school sign painters are just really excited that there is this re-interest within the younger generation of people who want to learn the traditional techniques. However, what we found is with our generation, you know, we're so used to being an expert at something overnight, that it's been really difficult for people to realize that you do have to put in the time. To call yourself a sign painter, just because, you know, you're hand painting signs, or you think you know what you're doing, is actually not correct. So there is some kind of like schooling on the back end, and you know, even Sam and I, while we were going through the process of making this film, have, you know, learned our lesson about you know. >> What is a good sign. >> Yeah. >> You have these, you know, men and women that, some of them are getting up there in years, and have been doing this for a long time. And sort of at this fevered pace of almost obsession and total dedication to it. They would still be quick to like dismiss their own abilities. So, you sort of never stop learning. You always pick up new tricks along the way. You know, we would see, you know, we were at meet-ups where there were like 60+ year old people, and they were like, trading information. They were learning new things at that point. It's kind of like lifelong. >> They don't feel, probably, threatened by those people that their sharing ideas with. >> Yeah, exactly, and that's softened a bit now that the industry isn't as competitive as it once was. I think there was this sort of lock down on communication between competitors to the detriment of the amount of information that was out there in the world. I think that's sort of being reconsidered. So now, a lot of the established people are really interested in sharing trade secrets, as opposed to back in the day, when they'd be more resistant. >> Well, let's see some more sign painting. >> Traditional signs, you know, you mix colors, and there's a whole unlimited palette of colors in there. Now the window splash, you don't want to mix colors because they get muddy. You have to use what manufacturers make, and there's basically about five

basic colors that I use

Saturn Yellow, Arc Yellow, Yellow Orange, which is almost a school bus color, and then there's Blaze Orange, which is a middle orange, um, then there's Rocket Red, and then the blue that I used is a florescent, it's called Horizon Blue, and then Aurora Pink. Now, Aurora Pink I don't use a lot of. A lot of people, I tell my students or anyone that asks, never use pink without asking the customer first, some people don't like it. Um, I'm Nick Barber, I paint temporary window signs all over Southern California. Um, have fun all the time. Other than talent scout for Spearmint Rhino, and uh, taste tester for Sara Lee, yeah, I think I got one of the best jobs around. It started out here in the late '60s. Um, there's a guy from New York drove cross country, did a few of 'em in Texas, then he got out here and he thought, "let's paint temporary signs in water color, that they can change every couple weeks," and it sort of evolved from there. >> So, okay, if you're an artist, you're a filmmaker, Sam, how did you guys work together? How was that collaborative process? How did you complement each other and where did you oppose? >> Well, I mean, I think both of us are filmmakers and artists. >> Yeah, I would say sort of both. It's I guess what we do more often maybe to like make a living is one disparity. But even that line is pretty blurred, because we met working in, well, living in Milwaukee and being a part of the music and art scene in Milwaukee, and then working in film production together, where I was working on art department, so you know, oftentimes, even though you're maybe making a commercial for a bank, you're basically engaged in like high scale arts and crafts. I mean, applying things you learned in art school to you know, make a piece of croppage, or something like that. So, you know, that was how we met. >> And we always were both working on projects of our own. We always have, I guess, just been people who have made stuff happen. So, what started to happen is our projects got larger, and we started helping each other with these independent things. We work really well together, so I would do art direction for videos that Sam was directing, for music videos. We just realized that we needed to work on something much larger. So, I had finished my first film, and had the idea about doing sign painters. I've had this idea for a number of years. I talked to Sam about it, and that was sort of how it unfolded. And like you said, he was like, wait, you know, what's sign painting. >> I was going to ask that. Did you have to sell him on this idea, or was he receptive right away? I guess I could ask him, he's sitting right there. >> I don't think you had to sell me on it. I mean, I was immediately intrigued, and essentially, like my own ignorance was instantly interesting to me. So just by the fact that I hadn't sort of put it together, I was like, wait, no, that would be a reason to do that. That's a motivating factor to do it. If I hadn't given any thought to this being an industry and there being men and women all over the country that do this for a living, then probably a lot of other people didn't. >> I mean, his initial hesitation was that there wouldn't be enough footage, or we wouldn't have enough subjects. >> For a feature. >> But I was confident knowing what I already knew with the initial people who I had contacts with that there was a story there to be told. You know, at a certain point, even I would say, five or six years ago, if you put sign painting into a search online, there was very little information that would come up. And to me, as a historian, as a documentarian, if you can make a film that doesn't have quality content already accessible, then you're making something that's just gonna benefit the larger, you know. I just felt like it was a good subject to explore more. >> Yeah, we really sort of jumped right in with, you know, a degree of base knowledge, but it was very sort of journalistic in our pursuits, which worked, because Faythe and I are pretty talkative and pretty curious people. I mean, we can be out at a restaurant, and ask the waiter 20 questions, not about the menu, you know if we're in a town that we don't know. So, we're both sort of drawn toward, you know, asking people stories. Yeah, you know, just the answer I do this for a living isn't enough. >> But why do you do that? And what's the point of that, and who's the person that made you want to do that? And where did they grow up, and how is that all connected? And because we had worked together so much and we were friends socially, I think it just was like, it just sort of started to fall into place, and things. >> Similar interests, that's great. >> Yeah, like she's better at emailing. I'm better at cold calling, you know, a stranger. There were workflow things that we gravitated toward the roles that we were more fit for, but there wasn't any, but it was pretty natural. There wasn't like a hard and fast definition of roles. >> Very good. Let's see another clip from "Sign Painters. >> They were going to have a little Letterheads meeting. So I'm there, and their going through this, so I kinda go off to the back of the room there, and Mark says, well he says, "We got some business now we got to take care of," you know, like that, so I step back, get out of the way. This is their thing. And, uh, so Mark says, "Well, we've got a new member we gotta initiate into the Letterheads." So I absolutely didn't think it had anything to do with me. So they, uh... Next thing I knew they called on me and had me go up there and I had to through the oath, and everything like that. And that I was the one that had inspired 'em to put this thing together. And they told me what the, uh, what the motto of the Letterheads is. You do know the motto? Well, just about the time that you get to thinking that, uh, you've found a cure for the common cold, you know. I mean, you really, you're really thinking you're pretty well hot stuff and you remember the motto. It's "I-O-A-F-S" "It's Only A F### Sign." >> That guy's great. So this is where I started to think during the movie like, okay, not only did this whole sect of people exist, there's like a beat generation thing within them. Talk about the Letterheads. >> The Letterheads, I mean, it was, even though maybe not everyone would classify themselves as an artist who was a sign painter, there is a tendency toward it being, you know, it is a job for people with at least an artist inclination. So a certain type of person was attracted to it. That's sort of a stereotype and not necessarily, you know, not everybody was a wild child, and not everyone was a borderline hippie or a beat generation. But there's a freedom to sign painting and an ability to make a living in some form of expression that did, you know, certain people kind of gravitated towards. So, at a time when basically, the late '60s, early '70s, when sign painting was still absolutely the way that it was, and it was very much an industry, there were these young creative guys who were looking at books, and they were seeing this really great old stuff with a lot of style, and they were part of a you know, active, interesting time for you know, artistic expression. >> It was a revival of sorts in that generation. >> Yeah, 'cause all they were doing, they would have their jobs, but they would be painting "For Rent" signs, and then they would see these references of this really great old stuff. And so, these guys started getting together to teach each other or share ideas. >> Ideas on techniques and letter sets and alphabets that maybe had been something that had happened, you know, 20 years before that. So they started to hang out. >> Yeah, turf wars with the Walldogs? >> No, I think there was some crossover eventually. >> Co-exist, okay. >> Yeah, and they still do. Both organizations are still active. >> I read that. I Wikipedia'd that. >> There are still Letterheads and Walldogs, groups around the country, and internationally. >> Yeah, the world. They have thousands of members now, which is so crazy, because the business itself has kind of diminished. But these people are still meeting. >> Initially, that was actually one of the ways that some younger people were finding mentors and informal apprenticeships, where they found out where these meetings were, and they weren't necessarily online. I think now, they're a little more, their online presence is a little more relevant, even within the last three years. But some of the younger sign painters that we interviewed had sought out these organizations and started hanging out, and that was how they had kind of found some of these people who had sort of like dipped back into the background and were inaccessible. Now people had sort of started to become like, there were these matchmaking processes that we've sort of seen happen, throughout the production of the film. These older generation and these younger people sort of finding each other, and having that happen. >> Yeah, which I mean, especially that happening socially sort of began with the Letterheads. These guys were getting together after work to share tips and talk about, you know, the craft. Then it went from, you know, five or six guys meeting in somebody's garage or someone's shop to hundreds people getting together. >> They can't get enough of it. They're sign painters and then they get together after work and talk about sign painting. >> Oh, it's an addiction to letters. I mean, I think anyone who is a sign painter or who works with letters in general is just this, you know, they have this like obsession with letter forms. It's a thing. It's a thing that you talk about it, and people are like, you know, when you do these interviews, everyone is moving their hands. It's about this whole, the shape and the design and the layout and the process. >> That's great. Let's see another clip from "Sign Painters." >> People just kinda have come to expect, you know, if they order a sign now, that they're going to be able to get it overnight. Sometimes it is hard to explain, well, gee, you have drying time, uh, you know you can't, if it's hand done, it's not going to be instant. >> I got a feeling, ten years from now, something that's produced today, a car, something that somebody wrapped, it's going to be gone. You're never going to see the history of what was produced in 2011. I can go still see the history that was produced in 1960, because somewhere there's a truck, somewhere there's a sign on a wall that's still there, you know? And that's the part about it that is really sad. >> It's all about the bottom line, and no longer about the quality of life, the good things, the right things. It's always about the fast things, the cheaps things. And certainly our industry has been impacted by that. >> But how many people dropped down the brush and got a machine is astounding to me. I mean hundreds of sign painters just threw in the towel, like had been lettering signs for years, and said, well, we got this plotter, and it's faster and there's more money in it, and might as well. How do you walk away from your craft like that, you know? I just don't, I can't wrap my brain around it at all. >> Everything's disposable. I never thought that I would stop painting signs. I never thought about, that they would make, a computer would come out and punch out these vinyl letters. I mean, it still can't do as pretty of stuff as you can by hand, but still, it put a lot of people out of business. But the world's changed. Totally changed. I'm glad I'm on the back side, you know? I got the good end of the stick, you know? Just these little young kids now, you know, they're the ones who's going to have it tough. You know, back in the day, hell, you could get in a pile and do whatever you wanted to do. Can't do any of that stuff no more, you know? >> So, okay, you've got this movie, this documentary about sign painting, painting and drawing. How, as directors, do you make that exciting? You did a great job of it, but how did you do that? >> Well, we were lucky that it's about a visual culture. So, first of all, it wasn't, you know, I think that we knew that it wasn't just gonna be, you know, there was content there. So everyone's shops and studios, and we're filming things that looked interesting. Then you could see the characters that we had to interview. >> Yeah, you know, we had to construct a story out of a lot of disparate conversations. But we weren't interviewing accountants, no offense to the accountants out there. But there was a real tendency toward being characters. And ultimately, no matter how straight someone is in real life, if they're going to end up in a movie, they're sort of need to be a character in some capacity, because that's how they're functioning. >> Right. >> So, we were really amazed by how consistent a lot of the information and the larger principles, and the dedication to the craft were from one person to the next. But then on top of that, the stories, and/or the personal spin on some of this more general information that a lot of them maybe agreed on was really remarkable. I mean, some of the people that we ended up meeting with were, I mean, some of the most interesting, awesome interactions I've ever had. >> We have a lot of footage. >> And we shot a lot. >> I like the pacing. Like, you've got a guy talking who's pretty interesting to begin with, but then you've got all this quick, you know, speeding the camera up, and cool graphics. We have about a minute left. How did you find these guys? This is an obscure industry to begin with. How did you track, and you have a lot of interviews, how do you track all these people down from a producorial standpoint? That must have been kind of a lot of work. >> We started with a handful of people that I knew in Minneapolis, some younger sign painters there who were apprenticing under Phil Vandervaart, who was in the film. And we sort of followed our leads from their mentors and their extensions. People started contacting us once we put it up online. >> Yeah, we did an interview with someone, and they're like, well, if you're gonna make this movie, you gotta talk to so and so. Then they would say, well, you've got to talk to so and so. >> The journalistic leads. We followed our leads. >> Who was the best character you talked to? >> Keith Knecht, who was the gentleman who told the story about the IOAFS. He was one of the most amazing people I've ever met. >> He changed our lives, and Doc Guthrie at LA Trade Tech was incredible. >> Yeah, the whole gang. >> It was cool. >> We've maintained touch. >> We have just a few seconds. Are any guys out there that just do this for a living, or are there a lot of them? >> Oh, there's tons. There's so many working sign painters. It hasn't gone away at all. The sign painting industry is alive and strong. You'll find it, I would say, from early 20s through people in their 80s who are still like, brushing traditional letters. >> You've just got to dig a little bit deeper. >> You guys, it's been great having you here. >> Thanks for having us. >> It's a great film, thanks a lot for being here. And thank you for watching Director's Cut. For more information on "Sign Painters," please go to wpt.org and click on Director's Cut. I'm future Letterhead, Pete Schwaba. We'll see you next time on Director's Cut. >> Vinyl is the new way, but it's not painting. And, yeah, when I get to paint a building, yeah it is a little bit of a victory over vinyl.

laughs

basic colors that I use

Victory over vinyl. That's a good name for a sign shop.