Talib Akbar:
People sent to prison as punishment, not to be punished, because once you're removed from the streets, going through the court system, they already take away what they're going to take away. And that is a punishment. But to then be locked up in prison, and then punished again, you know, or treated totally unfairly then because you have a number, you know what I mean, or because the person who you are, that's excessive punishment, you know?

Murv Seymour:
And can you see, I talked to somebody who came and saw this, and they said, "Oh man, this, I could see this being a good space for someone to come clear their mind and clear their head." Can you see that perspective? Does that make sense to you?

Talib Akbar:
Well, I'm going to tell you, it does have a place in one's mind who've served time before, because a lot of people aren't necessarily antisocial, but they need this elbow room, because everyone's going to get doubled up. So just to have this solitary moment is good, for a moment, right? 'Cause we need people, see? But only for a moment. No one would know that but the individual who's going through that, you know. So there is some understanding that if you've ever been in a crowded place, you know what I mean, you want some peace of mind, you know?

Murv Seymour:
Yeah.

Talib Akbar:
But if this is not the place to punish a person. We don't have the option to come to solitary confinement because it's a peaceful place. But many times that conversation comes from a person who hasn't experienced prison life, and it just, or don't have a home, or don't have a place to be otherwise. The man cave, you know what I'm saying? That's not from a person who's served time before. They don't see that.

Murv Seymour:
Yeah.