Washington Week with The Atlantic

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It was, in one sense, a tough week for RFK Jr. who was bludgeoned in the Senate for his management of the Centers for Disease Control and for his views on vaccines.

But he fought back and continues to carry out his revolutionary agenda with speed, enthusiasm, and with the apparent support of his boss.

And halfway around the world, America's adversaries gathered in Beijing in a show of force that highlighted their strengthening alliance and their growing contempt for the United States, next.

Good evening and welcome to Washington Week.

Scientists have endorsed the efficacy of vaccines for quite literally hundreds of years.

It's always worth noting that George Washington and himself had his troops vaccinated for smallpox.

So, naturally, in the year 2025, the secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., spent a day debating vaccination with various senators of both parties.

He also spent a good deal of time answering questions about his management of the agencies responsible for protecting the nation's health, including and especially the Centers for Disease Control.

In normal times, these extraordinary arguments would be the only news we'd be talking about, but this is also the week we saw China, Russia, and America's now possibly former quasi ally, India, create a tacit alliance against Trump.

Joining me tonight at the table to discuss all of this, Elizabeth Bumiller, a writer at large at The New York Times, Leigh Ann Caldwell is the chief Washington correspondent for Puck, Stephen Hayes is the editor of The Dispatch, and Vivian Salama is a staff writer at The Atlantic.

Thank you all for joining me.

I appreciate it.

Let me start with a very basic question, just to level set.

Elizabeth, what is RFK's unvarnished view of vaccines?

How much of an extreme view does he actually have?

ELIZABETH BUMILLER, Writer at Large, The New York Times: Well, he has one of the most extreme public views in the country, I would say, among an official.

It's a little hard to know exactly where he is because he said in his confirmation hearings that he was not going to stand in the way of people having access to vaccines, the COVID vaccine.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

ELIZABETH BUMILLER: However, that exactly where he is right now, and it caused the huge disturbance and huge shouting at the hearing this week, where he basically said that the vaccine had killed more people than it saved, he said very strange things.

He -- you know, he said that the head of the CDC who he had fired had said she was -- she couldn't be trusted, and senators said, but you're lying.

So, you know, we know, for example, that he has been vaccinated.

We know his children have been vaccinated, but yet he doesn't seem to want the rest of the country, or at least most people in this country to be vaccinated.

And it's caused it to -- you know, right now we're seeing, you know, states now are, like in New York and Massachusetts, are saying we're going to be giving the vaccine to everybody who wants it.

But it's caused a big mess nationally as the, you know, COVID season is upon us.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Steve, how popular is this, as a position among the Republican base?

STEPHEN HAYES, Editor, The Dispatch: More popular than it was ten years ago.

I think the reason that RFK Jr. has the position he has is because he has decades of experience being anti-vaccine.

This is what gave him a follow and gave him a constituency and ultimately led to this deal with RFK Jr. and Donald Trump.

It's why he is where he is today.

There's polling that shows Republicans, and this is increasingly partisan, of course, polarized, because everything is, shows Republicans are increasingly skeptical of vaccines as these arguments are made public.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: More than just the COVID vaccine?

STEPHEN HAYES: More than just the COVID vaccine.

Yes, we saw Ron DeSantis, we saw a movement in Florida this week to end the mandates for vaccines for kids in schools.

I think there's growing skepticism among Republicans, but not as much as you might think.

I mean, still three quarters of Republicans, according to most polling, support widespread vaccines.

So, the skepticism that we've seen hasn't gotten to the point where Republicans are running away from all vaccines.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Leigh Ann, let me ask you this question.

Tell them, I'll call them back.

This is the strange thing to me.

Arguably, the greatest achievement of Donald Trump's first term was Operation Warp Speed, which brought about the vaccines that allowed us to exit the pandemic.

What interest does Trump have here in putting forward RFK and his rather radical views of vaccines?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, Chief Washington Correspondent, Puck: Yes, it's really complicated for Donald Trump.

As Stephen said, RFK Jr. is a big reason why Donald Trump was elected, this coalition of the MAHA-MAGA base really propelled him to win this election.

But then he has this major success with Operation Warp Speed, which it was reported this week that Donald Trump has privately told supporters that he wishes he could talk about it more.

And you're also seeing a little bit of angst and anxiety from the president when he speaks about things publicly.

He had a Truth Social this week where he said, what is happening at the CDC?

If what -- if these vaccines are good, these pharmaceutical companies need to come forward and show us.

They're not telling the American public that things are safe.

And then also just tonight, he was asked by reporters in the Oval about the Florida mandate, about stripping the mandate for vaccines in schools.

And he said that that could actually be quite problematic because some vaccines are actually quite helpful.

He pointed to polio specifically.

But with all that said, while Trump seems to be torn, RFK Jr.'s job does not seem to be in jeopardy by any stretch of the imagination.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come back to that question and then, but let's talk about the Senate hearings.

I want you all to watch the -- one of the many heated exchanges between a Democratic senator and RFK.

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS Secretary: I don't know how many died.

MARK WANRER: You are the secretary of Health and Human Services.

You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I don't think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC, and there was -- (CROSSTALKS) MARK WARNER: You don't know the answer of how many Americans from COVID?

This is the secretary of Health and Human Services.

Do you think the vaccine did anything to prevent additional deaths?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Again, I would like to see the data and talk about the data.

I'm not -- MARK WARNER: You had this job for eight months and you don't know the data about whether the vaccine saved lives?

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: And that's the problem, is that they didn't have the data.

The data by the Biden administration, absolutely dismal.

(CROSSTALKS) JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, how would you grade his performance?

VIVIAN SALAMA, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: It is exactly what -- I mean, I'm not going to give him a grade, but I say it wasn't surprising that this, these were his answers because he has repeatedly justified the massive cuts to the Health and Human Services Department because of claims like this that he says the data was not reliable, the people who were compiling the data were not reliable or qualified enough to do so.

And so this is something that we heard repeatedly on Thursday while he was testifying, is that the data was not reliable.

You don't know how many people died of COVID because none of the data was reliable, but also the people who were running the CDC and HHS were not qualified people.

He even called the now former CDC director a liar at some points because she claimed, and she wrote in The Wall Street Journal in an editorial that she was being pushed to empower the views of recommendations of anti-vaxxers.

And this essentially politicized the department.

This was a problem that they saw.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Steve, is this -- does he have any foundation to stand on when he talks about the unreliability of the data, are we just an Alice in Wonderland?

STEPHEN HAYES: Well, look, I mean, I think you can say, you know, was it 1.2?

Was it 1.24?

Of course, we don't know probably to the exact person.

But, no, I mean, this is well established.

It's on the CDC and the HHS websites, the government's estimates of how many people died, and the effectiveness of vaccines.

Now, this is something that RFK Jr. does all the time.

He did it in his pre government life as he's making the case against vaccines, is he pretends that there's no data.

You know, there could be dozens of peer reviews, study peer-reviewed studies on topic X and he would say, well, we really don't know.

We need to wait for the data.

The data is often there.

He just doesn't want to accept it.

And he uses this.

He sort of injects confusion into the debate, I think, to muddy the waters about the efficacy of things like vaccines.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Elizabeth, Vivian wouldn't give him a grade, but maybe you will, not a grade.

Don't give a grade.

Just it seemed like he was very I think the word would be lippy with the Democratic senators.

ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Yes, he was.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That plays well, I guess, among MAGA people, people who don't like the Democrats.

It does seem like a bit of a distraction for Trump who has other things that he cares about more than vaccine fighting.

ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Well, that's what's so interesting.

Trump has not come out and given him a big defense at all.

You know, he says -- he hasn't said he is doing a great job.

He did a great job in the hearing.

He's been very silent, notably.

And that's not that's interesting.

And as we talked about before, you know, Operation Warp speed was one of, you know, a triumph of the Trump administration and also the Biden administration later.

But, you know, here, he has this -- yes, he's very pleased to have a Kennedy in this cabinet.

You know, he had a Democrat in his cabinet, a big name like Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

He -- but this was not a good performance.

I think Trump was very into television.

I can't believe he watched this and thought this was good for him.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is that what this is about, having a Kennedy in the cabinet?

VIVIAN SALAMA: There's a lot of that, and Trump has not made a secret of that.

He's repeatedly said that he loves having a Kennedy, but it has to be said.

And just to echo Elizabeth, it's very interesting to see that Trump has allowed him to sort of carve out a piece of the pie.

Trump has really owned the MAGA movement, but this MAHA movement, Make America Healthy Again, that now is really owned by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., is something that has gotten Trump's blessing, but he's sort of telling him, you do you, you do your own thing, we'll stay over here as MAGA people.

And he allows him to kind of operate adjacent but separate from what MAGA is doing, and that is really telling.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Leigh Ann, I want to show the panel Senator Barrasso, the number two Republican in the Senate.

This is not Mark Warner, a Democrat, talking about MAHA or talking about the having a fight over vaccines.

This is a very high ranking Republican who also happens to be a physician.

Let's just listen to him for one minute.

SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): In your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines.

Since then, I've grown deeply concerned.

The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership of the National Institute of Health questioning the use of mRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired.

Americans don't know who to rely on.

If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Does this put RFK Jr.'s position in danger?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: I don't think so.

I think that this hearing was an opportunity for these senators to express their concerns and their discontent with RFK Jr., especially, you know, Barrasso is a doctor, so he needed to be on the record for that.

And perhaps he's having private conversations with the Trump administration or with the president about RFK Jr.

But I don't think that this is going to be the thing right now yet that senators are going to go to bat for to break with the present and to really pressure him to get rid of his HHS Secretary.

One thing that is going to be important to watch is that, which Barrasso said in his hearing is in a couple weeks, the CDC Advisory - - Vaccine Advisory Board is going to meet about children vaccines, and there's going to be a lot of senators who are going to pay a lot of attention to that.

But RFK Jr., like I said, I don't think his job's in jeopardy right now.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Let's talk about the CDC for a minute on not the political level but the actual practical level.

Many, many people fired across divisions, many people who have quit in disgust or in protest.

Give us a sense of the CDC and its, to borrow a term, efficacy as the world's leading preventer of disease.

ELIZABETH BUMILLER: Well, it's in shambles right now.

There's -- all the experts, all the four or five top scientists have left.

The secretary of Health and Human Services has just completely undermined it to large portion of the American public by saying it can't be trusted.

It's corrupt.

Those words matter to a lot of people in the United States.

And so it is -- we are in -- you know, I have heard so many health experts say in the last couple weeks, we are in terrible trouble in the United States in terms of our public health.

They say this is the worst situation they've seen in a hundred years.

On top of RFK Jr., you know, pulling half a billion dollars for mRNA research, which is not just about vaccines, it's about fighting a lot of other diseases, that's been stopped.

And then he is also, you know, questioning the efficacy of the measles vaccine, which -- so this is a dangerous time.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Steve, is this a bill that's just going to come due in some terrible way?

STEPHEN HAYES: I mean, it's hard to imagine that it isn't.

I mean, I think some of it is what negative consequences are we likely to see from this.

I think the CDC is much less effective today than it was eight months ago because of the departures that we've seen.

More than 2,000 people have either been fired or have left on their own accord.

The other question is, what progress aren't we making?

Elizabeth mentions the, it was $500 million in mRNA research that was pulled back in August.

That was funding research and very promising research into cancer.

MRNA, one of the benefits of it is it's quick and it's adaptive.

So, you can make progress quickly.

This is one of the reasons that the COVID vaccine was as successful as it was.

You can make progress very quickly to fight any of a number of things.

We're not doing the research that we once were doing.

So, what progress are we not making at this point?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: And I also think that what could happen is we're going to have red states and blue states with completely different vaccine policies.

As we've talked about already tonight, Florida is the first state to move forward with stopping the requirement of vaccines in schools.

You have Washington, Oregon, and California who are coalescing around what they say is science and going to move forward and continue to study and offer vaccines.

But diseases also don't adhere to state lines.

And so this is a broader public health issue.

But, again, it's going to be completely more -- another thing that divides this country into what state you live in.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And when that happens, you erode the public's trust in public health.

I mean, and that's the big issue here.

Do I get my child vaccinated?

Will my elderly relative have access to chronic disease care?

All of these things now could be thrown into jeopardy, just even to trust that you know what to do or who to believe.

That's what experts are saying could really take a hit the most.

STEPHEN HAYES: And I have to say, I mean, some of that is earned, right?

I mean, if you look back on COVID, some of the things that we heard from public health experts who we were told to trust, they didn't adapt to new data.

They did say things that were untrue, including Anthony Fauci early, about the efficacy of masks because he wanted to preserve PPE.

So, some of that I think is earned.

And certainly among the right, there's this growing skepticism.

But it's also the case, I think, that this is the goal of RFK Jr. here.

He wants to sow this mistrust because he doesn't trust them himself.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But what is -- this is an impossible question probably to answer, but what is his vision of a future in which we don't have a CDC or an FDA or an effective NIH?

We're all going to get healthy because we're not eating food dies anymore?

I ask this seriously.

What's the -- STEPHEN HAYES: He says we were lied to by everybody about everything during COVID.

Now, that's, of course, not true, but he doesn't trust any of those people.

So, I think to answer your question directly, he would think it's a better world if we don't have to listen to the experts who occupy those -- VIVIAN SALAMA: He's aiming to reinvent it.

STEPHEN HAYES: Absolutely, he wants to remake American healthcare, American public health.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Obviously a subject we'll come back to.

I want to pivot though to these meetings among China, North Korea, Russia, and China in particular this week feels pretty good about itself.

Russia obviously feels pretty good about itself.

It got out of the pressure that came out from under the pressure Trump was putting on to come bring an end to the war in Ukraine.

I want to read something that Tom Nichols wrote in The Atlantic yesterday.

The leaders of Russia, China, and North Korea are not good men.

They preside over brutal autocracies, replete with secret police and prison camps, but they are nevertheless serious men, and they know an unserious man when they see one.

For nearly a decade, they have taken Donald Trump's measure and they've clearly reached a conclusion, the president of the United States is not worthy of their respect.

Steve, that's rough stuff, but it's true that Putin didn't end the war because Trump came back into power and that China certainly doesn't seem intimidated by the United States.

STEPHEN HAYES: Right.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Give us your analysis.

STEPHEN HAYES: Well, if you look at this gathering earlier this week, you had America's foremost adversaries declaring that their goal was to bring an end to the rules-based post-war international order driven by the United States - - created and driven by the United States for our own benefit.

And it's as if the Trump administration of the United States is looking at them doing this.

I mean, Vladimir Putin said that directly.

The Trump administration is looking at him doing this and saying, in effect, maybe not intent, but, in fact, how could we help?

Picking fights with allies, trying to blame Europe just in the last couple days for prolonging the war in Ukraine, tariffs on our allies, talking about, you know, invading Canada.

He's picking fights with our allies and he's accommodating our enemies.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Vivian, talk about India's role in all of this.

It seems as if the Trump administration has fairly significantly alienated a country that traditional American foreign policy practitioners believe serves as a useful counterweight, apart from being a democracy useful counterweight to China.

Now, Modi seems to have moved himself into the China-Russia camp.

What was the motivation to go and alienate Modi?

VIVIAN SALAMA: I could literally talk about this for three hours.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: It's good we have a special.

We'll do that on the web extra, Vivian on India.

VIVIAN SALAMA : foreign relations perfectly described this meeting as the axis of the aggrieved and Prime Minister Modi of India is among the aggrieved at this point because of the fact that, at one point, Donald Trump a few months ago told the prime minister that he was essentially brokering a ceasefire with Pakistan and India, archrivals, if folks don't know that at home.

And so, the prime minister did not take light this well.

He likes for other countries to stay out of it.

And so he proceeded to cozy up to, you know, China and Russia.

He continues to buy Russian oil.

And suddenly when he told Donald Trump he didn't want him involved and refused to nominate him for a Nobel Peace Prize, which the Pakistani defense minister proposed, this did not go well.

And so, essentially, a rift emerged and Modi has found new friends now in Vladimir Putin and Xi, which, by the way, is very telling because especially China and India have been at odds with each other for many years now, and suddenly they are closing up to each other partially because the prime minister is being pushed into the arms -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And this doesn't sound like 3D chess.

ELIZABETH BUMILLER: No.

Just what I also want to add, don't forget Trump also slapped 50 percent tariffs on India.

And this was our great economic, you know, friend, right?

It was supposed to be an offset to China.

And, you know, India is on its way to becoming a third largest economy in the world.

Right now, it's fifth, but it's going to surpass Japan, which is fourth, and pretty soon, it's going to be along with the United States and China.

So, why Trump out of -- seems to be angered about Russian oil also, perhaps because, you know that Indians denied his claim that he had single handedly resolved this conflict between Pakistan and India, and, again, didn't - - and there was no Nobel Prize nomination.

But this -- the 50 percent tariff is devastating to the Indian economy right now, absolutely devastating.

We get -- the United States imports huge amounts of textiles, jewelry, other things from India.

And they're basically -- they have to look for another market now, and that they're closing up to China as a result.

VIVIAN SALAMA: And the very thing that he's slapping tariffs on them for China as well does, but Trump has taken no action against China.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, the way things are going, I guess it's a good thing that we now have a Department of War rather than a Department of Defense.

I want to talk about that in the couple of minutes we have left.

President Trump has just announced that he's unilaterally renaming the Department of Defense, which was given that name in 1947, and he's even referring to Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense, as the secretary of war.

Leigh Ann, what's -- is this all made for television drama?

What's undergirding this?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL: Well, a lot of Trump's presidency has been made for television drama.

Not only this, but also, you know, the National Guard on the streets in Washington, D.C. You know, you just go on and on about that.

He's a marketing president.

He likes to make things in his own image the way he wants them to be.

But I will say that to change the name actually takes an official act from Congress.

I would not be surprised.

I haven't checked LegiStorm or congress.gov in the past 30 minutes, but there probably is already in legislation since then to go ahead and do that, because Republicans will follow his lead.

But the most poignant response from today was from Senator Mitch McConnell that said, marketing doesn't matter, you have to put the resources if you want a lethal fighting force.

And he called on the president to actually do that.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Vivian, last word to you.

The interesting thing here, one of the interesting things here, is that Trump with a MAGA base has promised no wars.

This seems like a bellicose move for someone who wants to disengage from the world.

VIVIAN SALAMA: Indeed.

And I have no explanation for it other than the fact that he does like a good show, also sending a message to adversaries as well, whether or not that works.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What's the message going to adversaries?

VIVIAN SALAMA: That we are ready if you push us.

We don't want to start wars, but, you know, in Trump's words, we would finish it.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I would note only that we already have a trillion dollar defense budget and we have the greatest military in the history of the planet, but -- VIVIAN SALAMA: Details, details.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: -- we'll talk about that in, in, in a coming show, but we are going to have to leave it there, I'm sorry to say.

I want to thank our guests for joining me and thank you at home for watching us.

To read Tom Nichols' piece on why America's adversaries are sidelining the president, please visit theatlantic.com.

I'm Jeffrey Goldberg.

Goodnight from Washington.