Washington Week with The Atlantic

YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS MODERATOR, WASHINGTON WEEK: Biden's presidency tested and Trump's inner circle questioned.

GOV.

J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: Mass shootings have become our weekly - - yes, weekly American tradition.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was horrible.

I went back, there were people shot on the ground, a little boy in somebody's -- one of the police officer's arm.

ALCINDOR (voice-over): Another mass shooting.

This time in a Chicago suburb.

And with Roe v. Wade struck down.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For God's sake, there is an election November.

Vote, vote, vote.

Consider the challenge accepted, court.

But in the meantime, I'm signing this important executive order.

ALCINDOR: The president takes action to try and protect abortion rights.

But some Democrats are demanding more fight from him in these turbulent political times.

President Trump's White House counsel speaks to the January 6 committee.

What he saw, what he knew, and what this means for the former president, next.

(BREAK) ANNOUNCER: Once again from Washington, moderator Yamiche Alcindor.

ALCINDOR: Good evening and welcome to "Washington Week".

This week started with yet another high-profile mass shooting.

In Highland Park, Illinois, a man shot seven people to death at a July 4 parade.

And according to the Gun Violence Archive, over the holiday weekend, there were at least 11 mass shootings.

That comes as the challenges facing the nation continue to mount.

There's a debate over gun laws, abortion politics, and historic inflation.

And this week, President Biden faced a rash of bad headlines, with Democrats questioning whether he is meeting the moment.

As an example, following the parade shooting, critics pointed to the president's response as not forceful enough in contrast to Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker's open frustration.

BIDEN: We got a lot more work to do.

We've got to get this under control.

PRITZKER: If you're angry today, I'm here to tell you be angry.

I'm furious that yet more innocent lives were taken by gun violence.

ALCINDOR: Meanwhile, Republicans continue to focus on mental health issues rather than access to guns.

Joining me tonight to discuss this - SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I think yesterday's shooting is an example of what the problem is.

The problem is mental health, and these young men who seem to be inspired to commit these atrocities.

ALCINDOR: Joining me to discuss this and more, Michael Shear, White House correspondent for "The New York Times", Jeff Zeleny, chief national affairs correspondent for CNN.

And joining me here in studio, Laura Barron-Lopez, White House correspondent for "The PBS NewsHour", and Josh Dawsey, political enterprise and investigations reporter for "The Washington Post".

So, Laura, thank you for being here.

Congratulations on the new gig.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, PBS NEWS HOUR: Thank you.

ALCINDOR: This was, of course, a surreal start to the week.

I can't even imagine people went to a July 4 parade and ended up running for their lives.

Of course, though, the politics on this continue to be challenging.

What do you hear from the White House and lawmakers about the shooting at other shootings that have happened recently that might lead to a renewed effort for even more gun legislation?

BARRON-LOPEZ: It is difficult to see anything the president is calling for in addition to what was passed, you know, which was more expanded background checks, red flag laws.

But what the president has called for are an assault weapons ban, you know, as well a ban on high-capacity magazines.

Those things don't really have any Republican support in Congress.

So, that's why a lot of activists and Democrats in his own party are pushing them to do more executive actions.

Now, right now, the White House is very focused on getting there nominee to Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms agency confirmed.

That's their top priority right now.

That's where they are putting their focus.

So, it's really -- I don't see the White House doing any more executive actions anytime soon.

ALCINDOR: And that's, of course, a sort of stark reality given what's going on.

Michael, I want to come to you because you did a deep dive, a really deep dive into Democrats wanting to see more fight out of President Biden.

I wonder, can you talk about the main concerns when you talked to Democrats and allies of the president about what they want to see from President Biden and how the White House is navigating all of this?

MICHAEL SHEAR, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah, thanks for having me on, Yamiche.

I think when you talk to Democrats, complaints divide into two broad categories.

One is actual policy, more policy engagement.

They want the president to do more to confront inflation, guns, the overturning of Roe v. Wade.

And they have a lot of suggestions, none of which -- and this is the source of the frustration, that the administration is taking them up on.

So, for example, on Roe v. Wade, there are suggestions for them to allow abortions to be done on federal land.

The administration says that's not practical.

There are some problems with that.

The other broad category, though, is a performative piece, right?

Part of the presidency is just seeming engaged and being in the moment that the rest of the country is in.

I think this week was a sort of example of how the president to a lot of Democrats seemed really out of touch.

You know, you have all of these big issues hitting the country at once.

And the president was in Cleveland talking about pension plans and he spent much of the time this week, you know, conferring the metal of honor and Medal of Freedom on a whole bunch of very well deserving people.

But to a lot of Democrats, I think it felt like his heart is not in confronting some of these big issues.

ALCINDOR: There are so many big issues.

And you -- I want to stick with you, Michael, because you wrote in this piece, and I want to read it, other Democratic politicians are jumping into what they see as a void of leadership.

That line really caught my eye.

So, I wonder who is really jumping in to sort of fill that void that they see, and why they are standing out in the way that President Biden isn't?

SHEAR: Well, the two examples I think given the piece, were J.B. Pritzker, who you mentioned, the governor of Illinois who I think just caught a lot of attention among the run-of-the-mill Democrats and activists for his passion and his rising to the moment, in terms of his anger after the shooting in Highland Park.

The other is Gavin Newsom in California, the governor who I think raised some eyebrows by not necessarily campaigning and running ads in California, but rather Florida, directly challenging Ron DeSantis.

There are a lot of Democrats who say, gee, you know, why isn't our president doing that?

Why isn't our president taking the fight to the governors of Florida, of Texas, of some of these Republican states?

You know, why isn't President Biden more aggressive in that way?

And the fact that he's not is an opening for other folks.

ALCINDOR: And, Jeff, another headline that caught my eye, or another story that caught my eye, is out of "Politico", they say Biden isn't running out of ideas, Dems fear, he's running out of time.

What is your sense talking to the different sources you are talking to about the pressure President Biden is facing when the midterms are just four months away?

And how does that sort of connect with what other presidents before him have had to deal with?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the summer before a midterm election is always an uncomfortable position in the White House.

President Biden certainly joins the ranks of many presidents who are likely to lose seats in their own party in midterm elections.

President Biden has been there to see this firsthand when he was vice president.

The summer before President Obama's midterm election drubbing in 2010, it was a difficult time.

But the difference I think for President Biden is one of himself.

He is not traveling nearly as much as other presidents.

He's not front-and-center as much as some other presidents.

Part of it is his age.

Part of it is the sheer fact of who he is as a politician.

He was not elected to go after the governor of Florida.

He was not elected to necessarily be the loudest voice in the room.

So, now, of course, some Democrats, the frustration is boiling over.

But as he said the other week, I'm the president who you have.

I mean, he is the president in the moment here.

So, there is nothing he can perhaps do to satisfy all of the anxieties and frustrations.

But there's more he likely could do.

He's frustrated, I'm told.

He has said many times, he told me at the beginning of the year in a press conference that he planned to leave Washington more, he planned to be out in the country more.

Well, that just hasn't happened all that much.

He did travel to Cleveland this week, but it was his first domestic trip in quite some time.

Presidents are busy.

His schedule is busy with foreign trips, et cetera.

So, the reality of what he can do, he's never likely to meet the moment of some other progressives.

But I'm not sure that we want our president necessarily to be going after individual governors.

And, of course, Governor Pritzker was fired up because it happened in his own state.

We have seen passion from President Biden.

What I think some other leaders are really looking for is more of a direction, more than just this optimistic speech he sometimes gives.

It's really taking things by the reins.

That is what he really has not done.

So, you know, the challenge is getting through the summer and into the midterm elections.

He is in a tough spot.

ALCINDOR: Definitely a tough spot.

ZELENY: Presidents have been in tough spot before him.

We will see if he digs himself out of it.

ALCINDOR: Definitely a tough spot.

And, Josh, what Jeff is talking about is the frustration boiling over.

I read something I think if you asked the Biden campaign whether it would be true in the future, they would, of course, say no.

But in several polls, Joe Biden's approval rating is lower than the former president, Donald Trump.

It's a stark thing given that the fact that we covered Trump together.

I wonder what you see is the significance of that, given that President Biden is trying to put up a fight?

I was in Cleveland hearing him talk to union workers.

But also President Trump still has his grip on the Republican Party.

JOSH DAWSEY, POLITICAL ENTEPRISE AND INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER: He does, and he would be the nominee if it was an election for the 2024 nomination tomorrow.

And he's, by a lot of accounts, thinking about announcing soon to be the nominee, or try to be the nominee for the Republican Party.

I think for former President Biden, you have a lot of confluence of factors that are really quite challenging.

I mean, as long as inflation is quite high, as long as gas prices are five dollars a gallon, as long as there is this type of concern, and it is hard to put a finger on it.

I mean, I talked to Democratic strategists and others about it.

But people just kind of feel unsettled, whether it's COVID, whether it's the economy, whether it's just a sense things are not heading in the right direction.

I mean, there's always kind of the barometer in politics is do people think things are heading in the right direction or the wrong direction, and you can somewhat link to whether someone is reelected or not.

And here, there's a lot of the country thinking things happening in the wrong direction.

If you have his numbers, you have a Republican Party that's chomping at the bit to try and defeat him and think they have a quite good chance to do it.

ALCINDOR: And talking about things being unsettled, President Biden signed an executive order aimed at protecting access to abortion and medication at emergency contraception.

But the reality is, there is no action the president can take to restore the nationwide right to an abortion in the wake of the Supreme Courts ruling.

Laura, so I want to, of course, come to you, because you've been doing a lot of great reporting on this.

How much is this executive order?

What does the impact the White House think it might have?

BARRON-LOPEZ: So, this executive action is essentially steps that President Biden directed all these agencies to do right after the decision came down.

This is just a formalization of that.

And, so, ultimately, I was talking to a lawyer about it today who said it is an enforcement of laws to try to direct agencies to protect people who may try to travel, doctors and patients who may try to travel to get an abortion, to enforce privacy for health data.

But it is a lot of using the current laws on the books.

And what the Democrats want to see the president do is go bigger and be more creative.

So, a lot of executive actions they want are clearly not part of what happened today.

They are looking for him to use Medicaid to fund travel for abortions, not the actual procedure, because under law, the government can fund the procedure.

And also to expand through the FDA more access to medication abortion, taking away final restrictions on pharmacies.

The president may be really cautious about all that, simply because of the legal challenges that are likely to come.

ALCINDOR: And, Michael, what's your sense of how Democrats or sort of seeing what President Biden talks about the bright spots here?

Because Laura is talking about sort of what he's trying to do with limitations.

There was, of course, President Biden, as you mentioned, going to Cleveland, wanting to talk about the economy, wanting to talk about some of the good things that are happening.

There are a jobs report today that they wanted to take a victory lap on.

But knowledge that Americans, as Josh said, just are feeling unsettled and not really that great about where things are.

SHEAR: Yeah, exactly right, Yamiche.

I mean, they sort of are stuck.

Today was a good example.

Today was a good example.

As you said, the jobs report was strong enough that under normal circumstances, the White House would be yelling it from the rooftops.

But the problem is they are very afraid if the president was overly optimistic, if the White House is seen as somehow ignoring peoples pain, and he would come across as detached from the way people are experiencing the economy.

And, you know, ultimately, the way people vote is not based on some statistic or a percentage the president can point to on a chart, but it is how they feel on how their lives are going and how they feel about their pocketbooks and the resources to do the thing for themselves and their families that they want to do.

And as I think Josh said, like, you know, the polls suggest people are not feeling great about those kinds of things.

The president risks a lot if he doesn't seem to acknowledge that.

But the flipside is by acknowledgment all of the pain, you can sometimes can sound like a Debbie downer and not be touting your own success either.

So, it's a real -- its a real problem for the administration, especially in this election year.

ALCINDOR: Yeah, it's a lot to balance and while President Biden and the White House challenging that, there were new developments for the investigation into the Capitol attack.

Today, former White House counsel Pat Cipollone testified behind closed doors before the January 6 committee.

And Tuesday, a grand jury in Georgia issued subpoenas to top Trump allies, including his former Attorney Rudy Giuliani and Senator Lindsey Graham.

Officials want to know more about their roles in trying to overturn Georgia's presidential election results.

So, Josh, I want to come back to you.

What do we know about the significance of Pat Cipollone coming in?

There is information about what he said and how long he was there today.

DAWSEY: So, Pat Cipollone, former President Trump's counsel was there for about eight hours with a few breaks.

And you see some lawmakers came out and said they learned significant new information, that they were pleased with the testimony.

We knew that Pat Cipollone was Cheney's bigger fish.

She really wanted him to come in.

Wanted to see testimony from other folks of what former President Trump was doing leading up to the election, how he was pressing these false claims, the planning of January 6.

And you heard a lot about Pat Cipollone.

But heretofore, he had been unwilling to come in and to talk to the committee directly.

He had done one informal interview, he had cited privilege, and when the committee took a pretty risky step, and subpoenaed him, and it was unclear what he would do, what you saw from getting him today is you have a number of figures in the former president's inner circle who have given the community -- committee videotaped testimony, under oath, that have given a deeper knowledge of what happened that day and former president's role in it.

And Pat Cipollone is particularly interesting, because he was involved in discussions about seizing voting machines.

He was involved in discussions about some of the more spurious claims, he was in the White House on election night.

He was around the days before and after January 6.

He allegedly warned a lot of aides about the crimes people would face if they went to the Capitol and if they went through with some of these more grandiose plans the former president had.

So he doesn't have a close relationship with the former president anymore.

I mean, they had a tense relationship at times.

I don't think they are necessarily simpatico in almost anyway.

That said, he had been very strident about trying to respect privilege in his mind and not wanting to discuss the conversations he directly had with the former president.

And so, the fact he went in today, we don't know what he said.

I think we will be trying to learn that in the next few days.

It is significant development for the community.

ALCINDOR: It certainly is significant development, Jeff, and you told our producers it is not a stretch to say that Pat Cipollone might be the most important witness that came before this committee.

Explain your thinking there, given the fact that Pat Cipollone might change the direction of this investigation, or at least add significant information to it?

ZELENY: Look, I mean, as josh was saying, there was no one who was really involved from the inside of the White House at that level of position, that level of experience and knowledge of the law more than Pat Cipollone.

So, we don't know he will be the most important witness at this point.

As Josh said, we don't know exactly what he said.

But there was no one who had the window into really everything that was going on and potentially, you know, he tried to stop from going on.

I mean, he sounded the alarm about the involvement in the president going to the Capitol on January 6.

He knew a lot of the things that -- the outside legal teams, Rudy Giuliani and others who were trying to cook up.

And it seemed like he was trying to throw his body in front of all of that.

So, I thought, you know, sitting down for eight hours is a very long time.

They have a lot to talk about.

I mean, just the days leading up to January 6, never mind from Election Day forward here.

So, it's certainly as an indication he did not spend time pleading the Fifth.

We know he answered questions.

And as Zoe Lofgren said the congresswoman from California, she said he did not contradict the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson.

Of course, the top advisor to the White House chief of staff Mark Meadows.

So, look, I think we are going to see since the video -- since the deposition was videotaped, my guess is, since we have seen how this committee works, they like to play those videotapes.

My guess is in the coming days, likely next week, we will see some of Pat Cipollone's testimony.

But certainly he has more knowledge than virtually anyone else in a deep level, you know, mixing that with the experience in Washington and the legal knowledge, he has a lot to say.

ALCINDOR: And you talk about the hearings coming up.

How much based on your reporting are the hearings making an impact with the American public that have been tuning in at least some time by the millions, but also among Republicans who are rethinking their thoughts on former President Trump?

ZELENY: Look, there's no doubt that not everyone is watching for every moment of these hearings, particularly independents and even Republican voters are not.

But it is impossible to not, you know, have some of this information sipping down, you know, through editorials in "The Wall Street Journal", other places.

You know, what it has learned is a huge breath of information.

But I think, more interestingly, it certainly has shattered this myth that there was widespread election fraud.

It has shattered it in the eyes of many Republicans and others that there was some big fraud going on.

But I think more interestingly, the biggest outcome in terms of the 2024 presidential race.

It has given other potential Republican rivals for Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and others a window into the thinking of the former president.

Yes, at this point, he still is controlling the Republican Party, but certainly, you know, with the iron grip it has seen several months ago.

So, that is something -- ALCINDOR: And it's such a great point that you make about the sort of the grip that he has.

Michael, I want to come to you, because Georgia also had all these developments.

The DA there saying she might subpoena more people.

What is the significance of what is going on there?

SHEAR: Well, I think in some ways, it's adding to the narrative that the January 6 committee is laying out for the public doing what Jeff said, which is to seeping into the American consciousness.

And the investigation - - I thought it was interesting.

The people that the investigators in Georgia were seeking to talk to some of the obvious ones, Rudy Giuliani and the like, but I thought it was interesting they wanted to talk to Senator Lindsey Graham, who had been one of the people who made phone calls to Georgia officials.

And I do think -- I think Jeff is right.

But I think the big question is how much is this really going to matter.

How much at the end of the day are Americans going to shrug off all of this as a story that they already knew, that they already felt somewhere deep down that they understood it had happened?

And how much of it is -- or on the other side, how much do they suddenly wake up and say we thought we knew what had happened here on January sixth and the days leading up to it, but this is worse, this is different, and we will make different decisions.

ALCINDOR: And it's a critical question to ask, like how much is this going to matter?

Laura and Josh, 30 seconds to go to both of you.

What are you looking for next week as we think about these hearings and what lawmakers are saying?

First to you, Laura.

BARRON-LOPEZ: One of the first hearings is going to be a lot about the violence and what occurred that day, what the president and his inner circle new, how concerned were they with these groups like the Proud Boys, Oath Keepers?

I'm going to be keeping an eye on that.

ALCINDOR: Josh?

DAWSEY: Yeah, that's exactly right.

And also the committee is expected to delve into what the former president was doing in that 187-minute period as the Capitol was under attack in the future, as soon as Thursday.

One of the things my colleague, Jackie Alemany, reported today is that they had got more witnesses coming forward, they could expand it into August.

It may not be the last of the hearing.

So, I don't think the story is over.

ALCINDOR: Definitely, definitely not a story that is over.

So, thank you all for joining us, all of our panelists, and for sharing your reporting.

Laura, Jeff and I will continue the conversation on "The Washington Week Extra".

This week's topic, startling headlines from abroad, including the latest on basketball Brittney Griner, who remains in a prison in Russia.

Find it on our website, Facebook, and YouTube.

And Saturday's "PBS News Weekend", a look at how inaccurate and misleading information about abortion is affecting policy and public opinion.

Thank you for joining us.

Good night from Washington.