Washington Week with The Atlantic

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Let me pivot finally toward the Middle East and ask you this.

And, you know, I've read your recent columns on this subject.

You're a severe critic of Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, and the way he's conducted this war -- THOMAS FRIEDMAN: And of Hamas, which is -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: No, and I want to get there.

But what I don't understand from reading you is this, so Hamas and its allies seek the annihilation of Israel.

They state that.

It's not a secret.

How does Israel end the war without totally defeating Hamas?

In other words, is it -- I understand the criticisms, but how do they coexist with a neighbor who won't allow coexistence?

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: They don't.

I'm all for Israel completely defeating Hamas militarily.

What I am not for are the three alternative choices that Israel had after that defeat that Netanyahu refuses to make.

One choice is we defeat them and we, Israel, the Jewish state, occupy Gaza forever.

That will be the moral and economic end of Israel.

Another choice is we just leave and we turn it into Mogadishu.

That will also be terrible for Israel.

The third choice, the one I favor, is you create an Arab international peacekeeping force in partnership with the Palestinian Authority, and over time, you build an alternative to Hamas.

I am -- well, my criticism of Netanyahu is not fighting Hamas, not even crushing Hamas.

It's not creating any alternative Palestinian structure and therefore leaving the Jewish people with the choice, Jeff, of permanently occupying Gaza or having Mogadishu there.

And permanently occupying Gaza, you know what that's going to do?

That's going to create a world where your grandchildren and mine are going to grow up in a world where they will learn what it is to be Jewish in a world where the Jewish state is a pariah.

And that is a disaster and that's what I'm fighting.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: There is a double standard obviously in the world when it comes to judging Israel's behavior.

But I guess you're just saying that you have to live with that -- THOMAS FRIEDMAN: that's the world as it is, yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That's the world as it is.

You quoted Ehud Olmert, the former Prime minister of Israel, a center right prime minister, saying that Israel is committing war crimes and this is why he needs the war to stop.

Do you agree that Israel is committing war crimes?

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: You know, I have not entered into that whole linguistic fight because my position has been for the very beginning.

I'm here to do one thing, figure out how to end this thing.

You know, I'm old, Jeff, 71.

I covered the Hama massacre, Sabra and Shatila, the American embassy bombing.

I've covered all of them, okay?

And I said to myself, I'm not going to be the scorekeeper of this.

I'm focused on one thing, not who shot, who did the worst thing to the because.

They all do terrible things at different times.

I would've figure out how to end it.

And that's where I put all my energy from the very, very beginning.

And my -- if you've read my stuff on Hamas, it's the same thing.

What is Hamas' position today?

Very simple, we want a ceasefire and we want Israel out of Gaza.

Oh, really?

What did you have on October 6th before this war started?

That's what you had.

So, you fought this whole war.

You allowed 40,000, 50,000 people to be killed to get you back to where you started?

Shame on you.

But I can't, you know, control them.

I can't figure them out.

All I know I am -- I do believe that if we want to see a Jewish and democratic Israel, that's what I do care about.

Palestinians have to figure that out.

You've got to find a way to get out of Gaza in a way that will create a, also in partnership with a different Palestinian party.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me ask you one last question because you're an expert on this for many decades, several decades.

Many sounds too dire.

What does Netanyahu not understand about American politics and about American Jewish politics?

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Well, I think Netanyahu is shocked by what's going on here.

Because Trump, Netanyahu always could go around any American president and now he can't, because he's looking for the Republican base.

He's pulling that lever and it comes off.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Kind of looks like a little bit of a sucker, thinking that Joe Biden was bad for Israel.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Yes, exactly.

You know, it turns out there are other worse things.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

And what about -- what doesn't he understand about American Jews?

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: You know, I think what he doesn't understand about American Jews is that, you know, they're ready to be with him.

They wanted Israel that's successful, democratic.

And if you -- they are really important to Israel standing in America, and you abandoned them for evangelical Christians, you'll regret that one day.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Right.

Well, it's enormously complicated, as is Russia, Ukraine, as is everything.

And thank you for coming on and not talking about Elon Musk only because I'm a little already -- I'm a little tired.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Iran-Iraqi war.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Iran-Iraqi war.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN: Sit down on a night (INAUDIBLE).

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We're going to have to leave it there.

But I want to thank Tom for joining me and thank you at home for watching us.