Washington Week with The Atlantic

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to pivot to the main subject tonight, the small subject of America's global alliances and the alliance for freedom that was established after World War II.

Susan, I want you to walk us through what happened this week.

But I want to read something that you just wrote in the New Yorker.

One difference from Trump's first four years in office is that he has now adopted not only a pro-Putin take on Russia's conflict with Ukraine, but an approach to foreign policy overall, which echoes Putin's throwback view of the world as a playground for predatory great powers to exert nearly unlimited control over the smaller nations that fall within their sphere of influence.

So, with that as backdrop describe what has happened over the last few days.

SUSAN GLASSER: Yes, Jeff.

I think that, you know, when you look at Donald Trump's view of Ukraine, he's always had a very dismissive view of Ukraine.

And now we see him overtly over the last week taking steps not only to pull back on America's support for Ukraine in the three years since Russia launched its full scale invasion, three years this week.

The United States along with our European partners has provided tens of billions of dollars in military assistance.

We have essentially kept Ukraine in the fight with Russia.

Donald Trump is not only saying no more military assistance to Ukraine, he now seems to be overtly parroting Russia's view of the war.

And that, I think, was a breathtaking moment that we will remember was what happened this Tuesday afternoon when Trump in a press conference in Mar-a-Lago explicitly said to Ukraine, it's your fault that Russia invaded you.

How it's inexplicable, but I think it bespeaks a shifting role for the United States in the world where we are not only an uncertain partner for our European allies, for Ukraine, but many Europeans are now wondering whether we're outright adversaries.

We seem to be taking Putin's side in this catastrophic and deadly war, the largest war in Europe since the end of World War II.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Peter, go back to this quote that Susan is referring to.

Basically, he said, despite our -- what we've seen with our eyeballs, that Ukraine started the war.

What is the - - I'm not asking you to shrinkify the guy, but what's the thought process that leads him to say that Ukraine started this war?

PETER BAKER: Well, look, he's saying you could have made a deal, i.e.

you could have given up your territory.

You could have been like Czechoslovakia in 1938 and said, just take Sudetenland.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: But why would you do that?

PETER BAKER: Of course, you wouldn't do that.

Of course, Ukraine wouldn't do that.

Nobody in Europe would have thought that would have been a good idea.

And nobody in Washington would have thought that would have been a good idea until now.

But you heard him switch, as you said at the beginning, sides in this.

He calls Zelenskyy a dictator without elections.

Now, Vladimir Putin is an actual dictator who has had only farcical elections for 25 years.

Zelenskyy was elected in a free and fair election five years ago.

It's true they're not having elections now because of martial law.

They are in the middle of a war but he is a popularly elected official.

And no, contrary to what Donald Trump said, his approval rating is not at 4 percent.

It's around 57 percent, which, by the way, is higher than Donald Trump's.

What did Donald Trump say about Vladimir Putin today?

What did he say about him this week?

Did he reproach him for this invasion?

No, he didn't.

He said it wasn't Russia's fault.

Vladimir Putin sent the tanks in, sent the planes in, sent the rockets in, but it's not Putin's fault.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Let me get -- let me ask a very specific question.

Given this new reality, and, again, it's a febrile reality, so we don't know what next week will bring, but, Jonathan, can Ukraine win, by its own definition of what winning is, a war in which the United States is not helping?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: They have said themselves they can't.

Zelenskyy has said that they, the nation is reliant on U.S. support, financially, military equipment and the rest.

Europe has stepped up, Europe has given as much as it can to this point, but Zelenskyy has said they cannot do it.

Now, there's some talk tonight that maybe there's some reporting tonight that a minerals deal of some sort might be close that would -- for some sort of US aid, but it's not clear if that's simply a payment for retroactively what the United States has already done or whether that would mean more aid is coming.

You know, just about an hour or so ago at the White House, Trump was asked if Putin was a dictator, refused to answer the question.

He has not done so again.

We have seen time and time again, he has been deferential to the Russian version of this conflict.

And what we've seen here, taken in tandem with what Vice President Vance had to say at the Munich Security Conference in recent days, seems to be a shift of the complete approach to the United States, not just to Russia but to our longtime European allies.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Jonathan, I want to stay with you, and I want to show you a clip from 2018 of a press conference with Donald Trump and -- featuring Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and Jonathan Lemire with a different haircut.

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, we're all younger then.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: We'll just watch this for a minute and we'll talk about it.

JONATHAN LEMIRE: President Putin denied having anything to do with the election interference in 2016.

Every U.S. intelligence agency has concluded that Russia did.

What, who -- my first question for you, sir, is who do you believe?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: I have President Putin.

He just said it's not Russia.

I will say this, I don't see any reason why it would be.

President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: That was a hinge moment in history, it turns out.

That was a very -- it was a very important question that you asked.

And the answer suggests that the reality this week is not a new reality, that this is where he's been all along.

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, he is consistent in his approach to Putin.

You know, he has put point blank right then, who'd he believe?

The U.S. intelligence agencies or Moscow?

He picked Putin.

And I think we're also seeing there's a personal dimension to what we've seen this week, where it's not just that Trump is deferential and seems to have respect for Putin, but has none of it for Zelenskyy, who he called a, I believe, moderately successful comedian in a Truth Social post a few days ago, who has clearly had personal animosity since his first term in office.

Well, remember, let's remember, he pushed Zelenskyy to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, then-Vice President Biden, and his family, thinking that it would be allegations of corruption in Ukraine that he could use against him in that upcoming presidential election.

That ended up leading to Trump's first impeachment trial because he withheld military aid.

So, he has had personal animosity towards Zelenskyy as much as some sort of, to a degree, affection for Putin.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Yes.

Peter and Susan, I want to ask you, you're both former Moscow correspondents.

You have a lot in common.

You might want to think about getting married.

You both spent a lot of time, and you've written extensively, including books, on this, what is the attraction Donald Trump has for Vladimir Putin.

Go as deep as you can.

PETER BAKER: Well, look, this is a central mystery still to this day, eight years after his first election to president.

We don't really have a very convincing answer.

If you ask people around him, who spent time with him, you get two answers.

One he loves strongmen.

He loves people who are authoritarians.

He loves Xi Jinping of China, Erdogan of Turkey, Sisi of Egypt.

He called my favorite dictator, that he has some sort of, you know, a relationship, or identification, perhaps, with people he perceived to be strongmen.

The other answer you get from people around him is money, that in the end, Russia was the golden chalice he never quite got, that he wanted to build there, he wanted to make a lot of money there, and he therefore was, you know, catering or kowtowing to Putin as part of a years-long effort to try to build in Moscow that never actually worked.

SUSAN GLASSER: Yes.

I mean, I think the other thing to, to note here is that he has Putin's view of the world.

And, you know, from his perspective, Russia crushing its neighbor and incorporating it back into the boundaries of the former Soviet Union makes perfect sense.

Look at how Donald Trump is threatening Canada, our very, very friendly neighbor to the north, and saying that it should become our 51st state.

When Vladimir Putin says, well, you know, Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist as an independent entity, I think, that, you know, is something deeply ingrained in Donald Trump as well.

But, frankly, I don't think the explanations are sufficient, Jeff.

It's true that he has a generic liking for strongmen, but it's also true that he has had a fixation on Russia and on Putin for a very long time.

There was a mash note that Donald Trump wrote to Vladimir Putin when he appeared as TIME Magazine's Man of the Year many, many years ago before Donald Trump even entered the White House.

He had a very specific, you know, kind of admiration for Vladimir Putin that even exists outside of his time in the political realm.

But, again, you know, let's not psychoanalyze Donald Trump.

Let's look at his actions, which are remarkable, jarring, very consequential, and in many ways, very un-American, the statements that he's made this week.

I don't believe that there's a president of any of our lifetimes, Republican or Democrat, who would say such things about a murderous dictator in the way that Donald Trump has.

And I think it's very important to be clear about that and also to recognize that there are so many people who have been, you know, sort of casting the fog of like, well, maybe Donald Trump, he's going to be a Reagan-esque Republican, he's going to support Ukraine.

Let's just say, once and for all, to cut through the kind of spin that many of Trump's enablers have been having and to sort of say, like, yes, Donald Trump has been very clear for many years now about preferring Russia and preferring Vladimir Putin.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Can I ask all three of you a question?

Is there -- has there been, or is there now, a democratically-elected leader of an American ally that Donald Trump respects?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: I think our silence says a lot.

We're all racking our brains.

PETER BAKER: Shinzo Abe of Japan -- JONATHAN LEMIRE: He liked him.

PETER BAKER: -- did okay in the first term.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What was the secret there?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Golf.

PETER BAKER: Golf, flattery, yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Golf and flattery.

PETER BAKER: Yes.

We reported our book.

In fact -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I'm asking for deep psychoanalysis and I'm getting golf and flattery.

PETER BAKER: Well, this is the best.

So in our book, we reported -- yes, and we reported that Trump -- remember, Shinzo Abe actually nominated Trump for the Nobel Peace prize.

In our book, we reported that Trump personally asked him to do it, right?

Would you please nominate me?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: And, Peter, I've asked you for the same favor any number of times, yes.

PETER BAKER: It's going to be in the mail.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, Trump asked Shinzo Abe and Abe, unlike Zelenskyy -- I mean, obviously, it's a sillier request, but Abe said he wanted to help.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Is there anyone else, anyone currently?

Shinzo Abe's gone, obviously.

JONATHAN LEMIRE: No.

I mean, he was okay with Porsche Johnson for a stretch, but -- PETER BAKER: That's about it.

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, that's about it.

Yes.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: What is it about democratically elected leaders that turns him off?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: And that -- yes, and that's where he's picking the fights right now.

That's where the tariffs are coming, China accepted, like he's targeting the allies far more than America's traditional adversaries.

And what's so also a part two of this, what's so interesting, is he's a member of the Republican Party and the Republican Party, you know, was the Russia hawks.

They pride themselves on being tough on national security, being tough on Moscow.

We've seen a little bit of pushback this week.

Some sort of suggestion from some Republican senators saying, well, we don't think Vladimir Putin's a good guy, but very little outright criticism of Trump, a little bit from Senator Tillis yesterday, a little bit from Senator Wicker.

But beyond that, it is simply, maybe Trump's misinformed rather than he's wrong.

PETER BAKER: One name, by the way, Benjamin Netanyahu, just to mention.

SUSAN GLASSER: Well, he has a conflicted relationship with that.

PETER BAKER: He does.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Conflicted and also a semi-strongman who's trying to change Israeli politics to make it easier for him to stay in power.

SUSAN GLASSER: Well, and, again, I just -- I think this point that's really important about these Republican officials is that some of them may have more traditional Republican views of foreign policy and of Russia.

But when it comes to a choice between their, quote/unquote, deeply held principles and Trump, they tended to use Trump, and I think Trump humiliated essentially his new national security adviser, Mike Waltz.

There's an extraordinary moment in the White House briefing room just yesterday in which Waltz's own words were quoted to him where he called, essentially Trump, a murder, murderous thug who was responsible for the war.

They said, sir, do you -- JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Putin.

SUSAN GLASSER: Sorry, Putin.

And they said, sir, do you still agree with this?

And he said, no, I agree with Donald Trump on everything.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to read something from something that Vice President J.D.

Vance said the other day, one of the strongest arguments against or for not staying the course with Ukraine.

He tweeted out, while our, while our Western European allies' security has benefited greatly from the generosity of the United States, they pursue domestic policies on migration and censorship that offend the sensibilities of most Americans, and defense policies that assume continued overreliance.

Now, put aside for a moment the question of the European cultural differences and what they do spend money on domestically.

It's also true that America's European allies, for decades, have underspent while we have overspent on their defense.

And so I'm just, you know, wondering, I mean, to give their arguments credit, could all of this rhetoric, all of these threats from the Trump administration actually lead the Europeans to build up their own defenses in a way that's going to be less reliant on the American soldier coming to their rescue?

PETER BAKER: Yes, that may be the ultimate response here.

But, look, the person who made Europe decide to increase their military spending in the last few years was Vladimir Putin, right?

Trump badgered the NATO allies time and time again in his first term to spend more, spend more, spend more.

A few of them did, but, frankly, by the time he left office, still only about a half dozen of the allies met the 2 percent of GDP goal.

By the time Biden left office after the full scale invasion, suddenly it's now two thirds of the alliance is meeting that goal, not because of Trump, and not really because of Biden, but because of Putin.

SUSAN GLASSER: Yes.

But, Jeff, I think you're right.

This is an important point to make, that presidents of both parties, actually going back to Barack Obama, and remember his defense secretary, Bob Gates, they pushed the European allies.

They said, you know, you can no longer rely upon an open ended American security commitment.

And, you know, this was a theme for quite some time and that's what led to the allies making this agreement, that by 2024, they would agree to spend a significant percent of their GDP on defense.

Now, Donald Trump wants to raise that to 5 percent of GDP to be spent on defense.

And by the way, even the United States does not spend anywhere near that.

Actually we're under 4 percent.

I believe it's about 3.8 percent.

SUSAN GLASSER: So, you know, the bottom line is that Russia's threat and its revision to the European order, that's going to cost everybody more money.

And so I think you see a real shift.

The question I have is not only is the United States going to move away from Ukraine, but what about our NATO partners in Eastern Europe?

What about the three Baltic states?

What about Poland?

Is their security now compromised by Donald Trump as well?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I want to come to that in one second, but, Jonathan, I want to ask you this from the perspective of a White House reporter.

There are a lot of different ideologies stuffed into the Trump team.

There's a conservative internationalist, there's kind of muscular interventionist, there's isolationist.

How does that stew pot, how does that work in there?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Right now, it's confused.

I mean, not just the national security adviser, but the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, as Senator, was very pro-NATO, very, you know -- and a Russia hawk.

And this week, we have seen exactly the opposite.

When he and his, some of his colleagues spoke to reporters in Riyadh after the first round of Russian-U.S. talks, talks that, from which Ukraine was excluded, no mention at all of the atrocities Russia has committed, no mention of all of the war crimes, the charges against Vladimir Putin, instead about the transactional economic opportunities, about a better relationship between Moscow and Washington.

So, there is diversity there.

We saw Keith Kellogg, someone who is much tougher on Russia, today, tweeted praising Zelenskyy, flying in the face of what Trump has said about him this week.

But, Kellogg also potentially sidelined from some of the Russian talks.

We know how unpopular he is in Moscow.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You covered the first months of the first Trump term, and it's very different, the Mattises, Pompeos, and so on, Rex Tillersons, the adults.

You're saying they're gone?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Well, the guardrails are not in place.

And the adults who are in the room right now, back then, had success pushing back.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: I mean, Marco Rubio might be an adult, but he's not arguing his -- Trump's worldview and he's not in the room.

That's interesting.

I want to come back to something, just a final round of something that was just brought up.

This is a quote from the Polish foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, who said recently that the credibility of the United States depends on how this war ends, not just the Trump administration, the United States itself.

Do you agree?

JONATHAN LEMIRE: Yes, I think so.

There's such a dramatic course correction from where we were, from what President Biden said, how he pledged that they would -- the U.S. would stay with Ukraine until the end.

And going back further, this is about everything that's been in place since World War II.

And it seems that the Trump -- president's view is wildly different and seems like, yes, he wants the war to end, but he's not doing so in a way consistent with what has been traditional American values and foreign policy approach.

PETER BAKER: I think the message from Sikorski, people like them, is don't forget Kabul.

You don't want to have Kabul happened on your watch, right?

He's trying to keep them from completely abandoning Ukraine.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You mean a chaotic withdrawal, a chaotic collapse of Kyiv?

PETER BAKER: Exactly.

You've set Ukraine on the path to what's happened in Afghanistan under Biden.

You hear that from some Trump people saying that's the one caveat as he is catering to Putin is that they don't want a disastrous ending.

That's the one thing he fears.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Susan, does Donald Trump actually care if Russian tanks roll into Kyiv?

SUSAN GLASSER: No.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: You want to expand on that?

SUSAN GLASSER: Look, Jeff, he's been very clear.

This is Russia's sphere of influence.

He thinks that Russia has a right to do whatever it wants in its sphere of influence.

He prefers Vladimir Putin.

He's at the point of almost openly advocating this week for Volodymyr Zelenskyy's ouster, whether it's through political means or otherwise.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: So, in other words, he's scared of the pictures, but he actually believes that Ukraine belongs to Russia?

SUSAN GLASSER: I believe I -- it seems to me that he has a regime change policy for Ukraine.

JEFFREY GOLDBERG: Well, that's a heavy note to end on, but I'm sure we'll be talking about this in the weeks ahead.

We are going to have to leave it there for now, but I want to thank our panelists for joining us.

I want to thank you at home for joining us as well.