Washington Week with The Atlantic

FRANKLIN FOER: It wasn't that long ago when Elon Musk, who was on his way out of DOGE, posted what he called a really big bomb, that President Trump's name was in the files of the government's Jeffrey Epstein investigation.

Musk deleted that post, but a report from The Wall Street Journal this week confirmed his extraordinary claim and revealed that the president was briefed about it by Attorney General Pam Bondi in May.

Joining me tonight to discuss this, Peter Baker, the chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, Eugene Daniels is the senior Washington correspondent and co-host of The Weekend on MSNBC, Susan Glasser is a staff writer at the New Yorker, Jonathan Karl is the chief Washington correspondent at ABC News.

Before we tumble down this sordid rabbit hole, Trump landed in Scotland today and took questions from the press.

I want to listen to this exchange.

REPORTER: Were you briefed on your name appearing in the Epstein files ever?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. President: No, I was never brief, no.

FRANKLIN FOER: Eugene, The Wall Street Journal reported that he was in these files, and he was briefed about it.

The New York Times confirmed it.

Why in the world is he denying this?

EUGENE DANIELS, Senior Washington Correspondent: Donald Trump deny something that everyone else says is true?

I'm shocked by that.

Because he knows, he feels like it's a bad, it's a terrible thing, even though everyone who you will talk to who's an expert will tell you that just because someone's name is in these files doesn't mean they did anything bad, right?

We know that Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends.

We know that Donald Trump and him hung out a lot, right?

We know these things.

We know he was on the plane at some point.

And so what Donald Trump has clearly made the calculation that he can't be connected to Jeffrey Epstein in any way, shape or form, and because, for years, he and a lot of the people that are in the administration stoked the files so much and talked about how bad they were and how all these pedophiles were in these files, je knows he cannot cop to knowing that he was in these files.

JONATHAN KARL, Chief Washington Correspondent, ABC News: But, you know, here's the thing.

When Pam Bondi put out what she called phase one of the Epstein files in those binders to those right wing influencers, those documents, which were mostly stuff that had already been out, 300 or some pages, Donald Trump's name was in those documents.

Those documents included Epstein's address book, which had Donald Trump, it had his brother, Robert, it had Ivanka, it has his ex-wife, Ivana, had, you know, whole several Trumps and also had the flight logs from some of Epstein's flights between West Palm Beach and Teterboro in New York, and one to D.C.

I think his name appeared four or five times already in what were in the so-called Epstein files that were released by DOJ.

FRANKLIN FOER: Well, can you just talk about the bizarre paradox here, I guess is what you might call it, is that at the same time that they really are desperate to escape this scandal, they keep burrowing deeper into it.

I mean, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche just spent two days in Florida with Maxwell.

What's the calculus?

JONATHAN KARL: I mean, if you thought this was an insignificant story and didn't want to pay any attention to it, they're making it impossible to ignore it.

Having the deputy attorney general go down to Tallahassee for two full days to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, who obviously is in prison for sex trafficking, is an extraordinary development.

And when - - what other case do you see like that?

And it's not just that, Frank, when you think about it, there were -- the Times had a great story about all the resources that have gone into this, reviewing these files, saying hundreds.

I am told it's actually about 1,000 personnel from the FBI and the DOJ -- FRANKLIN FOER: 1,000 personnel?

JONATHAN KARL: 1,000 people at the FBI and DOJ have been working to review these files for a matter of months.

Now, what were those people doing before they were tasked to this assignment, working on national security cases, terrorism cases?

They are now -- you know, I mean, a significant part of the manpower of our national security division has been spent looking at these files.

FRANKLIN FOER: Peter, you guys have written a biography of Trump.

Can you help me understand why -- I mean, there's no evidence that there's anything revelatory in these files about Trump.

Why, if he's innocent, does he act so guilty all the time?

PETER BAKER, Chief White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Well, we've seen that on other occasions too, right?

The Robert Mueller investigation found no provable in court conspiracy with Russia, and yet he seemed to act like there was one, right?

He seemed to act very close to Russia, very admiring of Putin.

Why do you do that if, in fact, you don't have something wrong?

And by firing people like Jim Comey back in his first term, you act like you've done something wrong, you're trying to cover it up.

And so, yes, he is his own worst enemy in this way.

He brings this on himself by looking like he's trying to hide something by denying the obvious right there.

As Jon says already out there, this is not a mystery that his name was in these files, nor should it be, because, again, we already knew he was a friend of Epstein's, and yet he is acting that way.

But I think it's part of, you know, his habit is to deny, deny, deny, even provable truths.

It's just never in his DNA to admit, much less acknowledge or apologize.

FRANKLIN FOER: Where does that impulse come from?

PETER BAKER: Well, I think it's from his father, I think his upbringing, to some extent.

He was taught you never, ever give in, never give an inch, ever.

You're a killer, his dad would say to him.

Well, a killer doesn't give in it, doesn't apologize, doesn't acknowledge, doesn't say they did anything wrong, doesn't acknowledge that there's some -- you know, that he made a mistake in being friends with Jeffrey Epstein.

FRANKLIN FOER: Susan, you wrote an excellent column in the New Yorker about this scandal, and I want a quote from it.

This scandal then is not the revelation that Trump was friends with a sexual monster who exploited underage women, since it is not a revelation, nor is it that the president lied to the American people, something he does with remarkable frequency.

No.

The novelty here is that millions of Americans who knew that Trump was friends with such a horrid man and voted for him anyway now appear to have decided that in a choice between Trump and a favorite conspiracy theory, they may just stick with the conspiracy theory.

Of all the many Trump scandals, why is this one that seems to be the one that has gained traction and gripped the media and apparently tormented his base in the way that this has?

SUSAN GLASSER, Staff Writer, The New Yorker: Yes, I think that's a really important question for us to be asking, Frank.

You know, if you think about it, in an administration where every day there's some new outrage or controversy where you could argue that the scandals get to the core of who we are as a country, right?

I mean, we're talking about the monetization of the presidency.

Nobody apparently cares about that.

We're talking about flouting court orders, attacking individual judges.

I mean, the list can go on and on.

So, what is the political truth that we're seeing in this becoming a scandal when so many other things haven't?

I mean, I just, to be totally frank, I would rather be talking about anything else than this, okay?

We are talking about a convicted sexual offender who has been dead for six years, who was prosecuted, arrested, prosecuted, sent to jail.

We're talking about the deputy attorney general spending two days of his valuable time going to interview the also convicted accomplice of that long dead sexual offender, right?

So, on some level, it's a perversion of our politics that we are talking about this.

And it reflects, of course, very poorly on the man in the White House who was friends with such a person.

But I just think it tells us something about the nature of Trump's alliance with the MAGA movement, that he's both a leader but also a follower of them.

He's unleashed so many lies, conspiracy theories, diversions, untruths, and that this particular one resonated so deeply with a portion of his base that they are willing, at least for now, to even do what they're not willing to do on any of the other many lies and conspiracy theories that he has foisted upon them.

I think it's quite interesting to wonder whether this is a breach that could widen over time or it's a one-off.

And I think we don't know the answer to that yet, but it's notable that some members of Congress who stick with Donald Trump through the most outrageous untruths are demanding answers from him that he doesn't want to give right now.

EUGENE DANIELS: And part of it is this scandal, the Epstein/Trump of it all, goes at the heart of kind of what the MAGA base is about, which is powerful people doing things behind closed doors and the rest of us being screwed out of it, right?

And, usually, Donald Trump is on the side of the people that are getting screwed, right?

Usually, Donald Trump is talking about how, you know, the lowly man and woman are losing out to these interests in Washington, D.C., and people are defending and protecting them, and we have to stop those people.

But now they are seeing Donald Trump seemingly being one of the people doing the defending and the protecting of the powerful people, and him being one of the powerful people themselves.

That's why I think he can't shake it because, at the end of the day, this is -- they love a conspiracy theory, right?

Over and over again, this is one that, when you talk to people, the pedophile rings, alleged pedophile rings -- JONATHAN KARL: Based on QAnon.

EUGENE DANIELS: Yes, based on QAnon, and also remember the pizzeria.

SUSAN GLASSER: But let's be clear here that, you know, we act as though these poor people were misled and now they're shocked to find out like that Donald Trump was friends with Jeffrey Epstein, they've known that for years, okay?

How many times have, you know, we inflicted upon our viewers or our readers images of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein?

The video of him, them partying, that's from decades ago.

PETER BAKER: The MAGA base, though, is upset not because they think Trump was friends with Epstein.

They're upset because they thought that the Epstein files would tell them something about other people, about other rings.

They didn't want to actually target Trump, per se, that sort of collateral damage in a way they thought.

It would be telling about Bill Clinton, it would be telling them about other famous and, you know, elites.

JONATHAN KARL: And Bondi raised the expectations.

But, look, there's a fundamental question that I'm amazed has not really been directly addressed in so much of how the story has unfolded.

Why is Todd Blanche in Tallahassee?

What is what purpose?

Just a basic question, because the White House hasn't answered.

So, I think that -- I mean, my understanding is there's really only one explanation, and then that is he's trying to go and produce what all those FBI agents couldn't produce when they were looking through the files, trying to get some dirt on the president's enemies.

FRANKLIN FOER: So, it's a desperate hash tag, save the conspiracy.

JONATHAN KARL: Yes.

He claims there, what do you have?

Do you have -- give me the evidence on Bill Clinton in the island.

Give me the - - you know, I mean, what else could it be?

SUSAN GLASSER: Well, I think it's important to note just quickly on this, that Donald Trump has already dangled publicly the prospect of a pardon.

And I think that's very significant.

I mean, I can't think of, you know, someone who has more incentive to lie or to tell Todd Blanche what he wants to hear than someone who's in jail for a very long sentence.

Trump has said, he was asked directly about it.

He said, I can't - - you know, I'm not doing anything right now, but I have the power to do it.

And I think he repeated that.