To The Contrary

Funding for to the contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B Carpenter Foundation, the Park Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation Coming up on To the Contrary, abortion politics as the 2024 primaries come closer and nearly a decade after combat roles open to women.

Has sexism in the military abated?

(MUSIC) Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe' Welcome to To the Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives.

Up first is the political battle for women's control over their bodies weakening or building?

Planned Parenthood has launched its first ad of the 2024 presidential cycle, targeting Republican candidates for uber conservative stances on abortion.

Former President Trump, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, former United Nations ambassador and South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley and South Carolina Senator Tim Scott are among those highlighted in the ad.

Abortion remains a key issue after the US Supreme Court Dobbs decision overturned a national right to choose and put a hold on a case that would have restricted the sale of Mifepristone for medical abortions.

Experts agree.

Voters motivated by abortion rights helped Democrats achieve much better results than expected in the 2022 midterm elections.

Meanwhile, this week, the South Carolina Supreme Court approved the state's, quote, Fetal Heartbeat and Protection from Abortion Act, end quote, which limits most abortions as early as six weeks into a pregnancy.

Joining us today are Sam Bennett of the New York Amsterdam News former Republican Congresswoman from New York Nan Hayworth senior reporter for The Root, Jessica Washington and Kira Davis, host of the podcast "Just Listen to Yourself."

Do you believe that Republican attempts to continue to work towards banning all abortions are going to help or hurt Democrats at the polls in November?

I think they'll help Democrats.

I think they did in the 2022 midterm election.

I know living in obviously the state of New York and in New York metropolitan area, how strongly women feel about the issue of abortion as a single issue.

And in a sense, they will.

They understand issues about the economy, about national security, about public safety very well.

But they will still stand firm on this one issue, understandably, because it is profound.

It has to do very much with bodily autonomy.

And what I wish Republicans would do would be to emphasize that we don't want to interpose government between a woman and her doctor.

Certainly, at least not in the first trimester of 15 weeks.

You can certainly argue those those points.

Well, and you know that that was when I was growing up politically in the seventies eighties.

That was the typical Republican stance.

Of course, as with Donald Trump, there's a new Republican Party and that's no longer the stance, really.

But with all due respect, it was really in the Reagan era that it became a new Republican Party.

President Trump actually is more liberal about abortion policy and has stated so in recent days.

But.

Right, but wait a minute.

I mean, I don't want to get into too much of a.

Debate about what?

Yes, Reagan started it, but he never he never approved this far to the right.

-Anywhere near.

-Understood Aa Trump has.

I just want to emphasize this point where Republicans can square that circle.

Has to do with taxpayer funding.

And certainly when I was in Congress, this is how I kept faith with my constituents fairly broadly, but certainly with my constituents who were passionately pro-life.

Taxpayers should also not have to pay.

They shouldn't be compelled to pay for elective procedures that they find morally repugnant.

And that's where I think the Republicans should put their emphasis is on withdrawing taxpayer funding for for those procedures.

But right now, they don't have a consistent, clear answer.

Women in swing districts hear what's going on in states that are more restrictive and why you can assure them up and down that you won't do that to them in their blue state.

They will not believe you as a Republican.

They will say, if we elect sufficient numbers of Republicans, this is what you will do to us and we will not return to the days of back alley abortions.

And I understand that.

Okay, Jessica, your views on whether the battle over abortion rights is strengthening in the favor of Democrats who want to restore and at some point anyway, not anytime soon, but a a national right to choose or is it weakening, particularly among African-Americans?

This is clearly an issue that Democrats are the strongest on.

We saw abortion was on the ballot directly in six states.

And each time even in more conservative states, voters opted to defend abortion rights or at the very least not to cut back on them.

So I think we are seeing that in our political climate right now.

People want to vote or want to defend abortion rights.

But I think what's happening is that they're actually seeing those rights go away.

I think before Roe collapsed, people maybe didn't notice the small erosion of abortion rights in the states.

And now they're saying, okay, this is happening, this is maybe impacting someone.

I know this is all over the news.

This is there are women who now are maybe severely injured because they weren't able to receive abortion care or they're getting sick and they're watching that happen and they're saying this is a real issue.

This is something we need to focus on.

Kira, your thoughts and welcome to the panel.

Yeah, I definitely think that abortion is a winning issue for Democrats.

Democrats have been priming their base for decades.

And and it's a very important issue, particularly for women voters.

I agree with Nan on this.

I think the Republicans need to focus on exactly what the Dobbs decision did, which it did.

What it was supposed to do, sent the issue back to the states.

So it really is a matter for the people to decide.

I live in California.

We're an abortion sanctuary state, so I'm pro-life, decidedly pro-life, but I live in an abortion state, and that is the will of the people here.

The people chose that.

And so that is what Republicans, I think need to counter on.

But clearly, abortion is a winning issue for Democrats.

There's no doubt about that.

I don't think that changes the mind of people like me who have a moral stance on abortion.

But it definitely should concern, you know, Republican consultants and campaigners and candidates.

So it'll be an interesting process as we see it play out through a presidential campaign, which is a little different than a lot of these local campaigns or state campaigns, because now the issue really isn't a federal issue.

And so a Republican candidate is going to have to address that clearly and Democrats are going to have to take advantage of that and maybe try to make it a federal issue.

Sam, quick question.

I want to pick up on a point that Kira raised a moral stance on abortion.

Do you think most pro-choice supporters think that they have an immoral choice on abortion rights?

I want to respect Kira's position.

I think if that is her decision morally, I respect that as a churchgoing choir singing Christian.

I respect that.

Now, I'm a pro-choice, decidedly pro-choice, but I think there's a real important dynamic happening here.

To go 10,000 feet up in the air for decades upon decades since the passage of Roe versus Wade, international economist looking at the American landscape where abortion has become the polarizing electoral issue of our age, they said, you know, the real frailty of Roe is that it could be overturned at the Supreme Court level.

They've been saying that for decades.

Well, guess what?

None of us thought it would happen.

I think on both sides of the aisle and it did happen.

And so now we're looking at the political aftermath of that and really abortion rights need to be secure.

To your point, Nan, and to your point, Kira, on a state by state basis so that we have this sort of sweeping general consensus that using our rule of law here in our constitutional form of governance, because just by having a Supreme Court level without that state mandate creates enormous problem, which, of course, death by a thousand cuts.

The Republican Party has taken full advantage of that.

Abortion has been the driving issue for the Republican Party for decades upon decades.

And now political analysts are saying for the Democratic Party, it could very well become the catalyzing issue for Democrats.

Okay, quickly, do you see as we get closer to the election that this is that it is motivating more Democrats than Republicans?

Is Is the push to push back against what the Supreme Court did in the Dobbs decision strong Is it getting stronger or weakening as time goes on?

Only getting stronger.

And I'm relieved and thrilled.

The big reason why we've had such as long term erosion of women's rights in the United States is complacency is, you know, Roe versus Wade was passed and were like, okay, we're done.

When nothing could be further from the truth, more action, more catalization needed to happen.

It wasn't happening because of complacency.

So now that complacency has completely been blown out of the water, and I see this as an accelerating driving.

If you look at the Scandinavian countries very briefly, they have got unbelievable muscle.

The women's the women's movement in the Scandinavian nations, not because it was legislated to your point in top down, but rather women bottom up said, We insist on having these rights.

And so that's the kind of muscle we need to the United States.

And I'm thrilled to see what's happening.

Thrilled.

Just to clarify, Roe was was a Supreme Court decision when it was originally when it originally entered American Life.

So it was not a law per se, but yes, it was a court decision.

Right.

Even Ruth Bader Ginsburg argued that perhaps it was not the best decision on a strictly constitutional basis.

I think it's the right decision with regard to women's rights.

I definitely agree and have said so that women have the right to bodily autonomy.

But I will offer that our friends among the Democrats cannot claim to be champions of women's rights when women and girls spaces and sports are being compromised by males who claim to be women or who have had some sort of transgender conversion.

So I think the whole issue of promoting.

The second before before we go way off the topic, but.

I just think the whole issue of women's rights, abortion is a particular and very important case, but not the only right that we should be concerned with when it comes to the rights of women.

Kira how would you be advising the Republican candidates who, of course, have their debate this week, their first debate moving forward, if in a time when abortion rights are at least according to the consensus on this panel, it's becoming more and more of a motivating force for Democrats.

I really think they need to keep it to a minimum, to be honest.

It's an it's not a federal issue anymore.

That's exactly what the Dobbs decision did.

And so if I were a Republican candidate running for office, every time I were asked about it, I would just hammer home that part.

It's really not for a president to decide.

It never was, first of all.

So you're not electing a president based on what he's going to do with abortion.

We don't elect kings.

We have a Congress.

And so obviously your congressional elections are more influential in that respect.

So it's a federal candidate.

As a as a general election candidate, I would probably just hammer home the point that this is not a concern for the president.

I believe in the people to decide this where they are.

This is what Dobbs did and that's where it belongs.

You have states like California, where we have decided we would like to enshrine it in our Constitution in the states like South Carolina, that have decided to enact other laws.

And we respect those rights because we're a federalist nation.

All right.

And to close out, Jessica, your thoughts and and quick question to you to follow up with young voters.

What's a more important issue, abortion rights or climate change?

Yeah.

So on that question, I do think climate change is incredibly salient.

I do think abortion rights are, it's hard to even I mean, I'd have to look at the polling at this exact moment to say, but I think both are really salient issues for younger voters.

For the younger generation that's up and coming now.

I think they're seeing that these are not rights that we are just owed These are rights.

We're going to have to fight for.

So I do think for young voters, both of these are incredibly important issues.

And just to kind of say, you know, this issue of whether or not abortion is a national issue, I think we saw that a little bit on the debate stage last night because Republicans were forced to talk about whether or not they supported a national abortion ban.

And you saw a lot of the candidates kind of quibble.

You saw Nikki Haley say, well, this is never going to get passed in the Senate, so I don't even want to talk about it, which is frankly, a smart answer.

I want to be the boogie man on this issue.

And then you saw someone like Mike Pence, whose candidacy has pretty much banked on being this kind of anti-abortion crusader.

And so he very strongly answered the question, saying he would support that ban.

But you are kind of seeing folks not really know how to respond when they know I don't want to be the boogeyman to Democrats when I have to run in a general election.

All right.

From abortion rights politics to sexism in the military, a recent study reveals some males in Army special Forces units still resist the idea of women serving alongside them.

Women have been allowed to hold combat jobs for almost a decade, but many obstacles still prevent them from fully integrating into traditionally male dominated roles.

A 106 page report by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command reveals many widespread gender biases, sexual harassment and overtly sexist attitudes and behaviors women face in combat roles.

Women also report uniforms and protective equipment such as body armor aren't designed to fit women correctly.

This hinders their performance and puts their lives at risk.

The report makes clear there are still cultural and attitudinal changes needed to support women in combat.

So, Jessica, this many years later, where young women such as yourself thinking that if they joined the military a decade after combat roles were open to women soldiers, that they would still be facing this kind of prejudice.

One one quote in that report was from a general who said he was retiring rather than having to train another female to be in the special forces.

I think it's incredibly disheartening.

I'm not so sure it's surprising that we're hearing this.

We've been hearing this time and time again, not just these issues of discrimination, but also sexual assault of women in the military is also a massive issue.

It's something we looked into when I was working at the Fowler Project for National Reporting, and this continues to be a pervasive problem.

And unfortunately, I wish reports like this was surprising.

But all the evidence we have suggests that this is what it's like to be in the military as a woman right now in a combat position.

And and your thoughts Nan?

Clearly, the our military forces owe women in whatever role they're in the proper preparation and equipment and accommodations to the extent that those are practical on a field of battle.

But I will say this.

I don't want to see standards for physical performance or other aspects of performance modified or lowered, if you will, In terms of physical performance.

We are a sexually dimorphic species.

Women in general are not as strong as fast, is as powerful physically as men to the extent that that matters.

And it matters much on the field of combat.

I think we have to ensure that women who are put in combat roles are capable of meeting whatever that standard is.

And I think it's going to be tough for a lot of women to do that to the extent that they can.

They need to be accommodated.

But, you know, I remember, again, my data are probably out of date, but back in the day when this was still we we talked about this story so many times when the when the women were women in the military were fighting for the right to get into combat roles or combat related roles even before that.

And there the data at the time were that 70% of men passed the physical test.

In other words, 30% of men were not strong enough.

And they shouldn't be in a combat role either.

Yeah, but but.

But and something like only 30% of women physically qualified.

So, I mean, that issue has already that's that's been resolved a long time ago.

Yeah.

A woman who can't lift and carry a 20 or �30 knapsack for many, many miles in training is not going to make it into the special.

Well, she's not going to make it into even training because she'll be screened out.

Correct.

And all of that.

But there have I mean, I know I have some friends who have fairly extensive military experience.

And, you know, there has been and undertow without hostility.

But I've, you know, certainly heard that.

You know, obviously, a lot of folks are eager to have these kinds of efforts succeed.

And so there may be, you know, some attempt to to accommodate what might not be accommodated in the ideal physical specimen.

I'm just saying men who don't qualify should be excluded.

Women who qualify do need to be accommodated, that with the equipment that fits them.

I mean, that that's you know, it would be ridiculous not to.

And in terms of sexual harassment, obviously, it should not be tolerated in any form.

And certainly having served in Congress and worked in the VA and seen the VA, which is another aspect of DOD or Department of Defense, is rife with inefficiencies, with incompetence, sadly, and part of that is because, of course it's a unit of government.

But I think we should be devoting the proper resources to having our military be fully diverse and and fighting strength in every respect.

And frankly, we should stop diverting resources to programs within the federal government that are not nearly as urgent a responsibility of our government.

All right.

Kira, I remember conservative women at the time were saying that this very kind of thing would happen, that men would be resistant to integrating women into particularly combat positions.

That was one reason they argued to keep them out.

Were they right?

Were they right that it was a mistake?

I don't I don't think we can say that.

It's a mistake.

Can we?

I don't know any of the statistics, to be honest, about what women are doing in the military, how well they're doing in combat positions.

All I can speak to on this subject is the idea that every woman has the right to be heard.

And when it comes to sexual assault or being mistreated on the job, of course you should be afforded all your rights as an American citizen.

I do think that this is a more complicated issue than than just what we can address here on this show.

So if the question is, were conservative was right, yeah, they were absolutely right.

I mean, listen, conservatives have been arguing for two weeks over the freaking Barbie movie.

You know what I mean?

Like conservative.

were really upset over the Barbie movie.

So, yeah, conservatives are going to have a lot to say about this issue.

But there might be some resentment for some of the standards that have changed over time.

I know that the Army did drop down standards for for physical standards for women on the issue.

I only know this because I have a female friend in the Army so that they can joint special forces.

And I can imagine that that causes some kind of resentment.

But I don't know what it's like to be in the military and what it's like to have to depend on the person next to you for your life.

And so some things you play politically like I'm comfortable speaking on, but some things I'm just like, I don't totally understand this situation.

I don't feel comfortable placing all kinds of assumptions on the attitudes and and ideas of people in the military.

All I can say and all I think it's the right thing to say is that, of course, women deserve to be protected and afforded their right.

Yeah, but who's whose problem is that?

Is that women's problem or is it men's problem to get with it?

It's the military's problem to solve it.

I'm I'm a former ranger, actually.

I come from a military family.

I was an ROTC ranger in college.

I've been mentoring junior Naval ROTC cadets, male and female, for the past 20 years.

My father was a marine officer and pilot.

My uncle was a naval commander.

So I come from a big military family.

And the problem, Kira, nailed it.

It's the military, way back in the 1940, like in 1948, Truman signed the desegregation of military act.

Right.

So blacks have served with distinction in the American Army and all forces since the civil war, but were segregated.

So in 1948, that ended that took a lot of political will by the military to make that happen.

Now, we're at we're only a decade into women serving in active combat.

That's not very long.

But the military needs to make it their business.

To your point, Kira, I couldn't agree with you more to make this a safe place for women to serve.

And I'm very proud to say in a unit at Clarkson University where I went to college, where there were 600 cadets that were male, there were three of us that were female back in 1976, and I won the pushup contest.

So I was definitely physically capable to serve.

So if we want to arm wrestle, we shouldn't try to do it with you.

I got guns, baby.

I.

Are you surprised that it's taking this long, or did you figure it would be decades, if not maybe centuries long?

A cultural adjustment for men to accept women in combat?

I am not surprised, but I'm disappointed with so much military leadership in my family.

This is a lost opportunity by the military to really lean in, hard to cure is and a point, especially this sort of rampant sexual abuse, sexual attacks, sexual assaults in the military should have ended decades ago.

Right.

With women just serving.

So to have that can continue to be a persistent issue.

I think, honestly, it's a failure on the part of military leadership.

But I'm confident coming from a military family, that military leadership will not allow this to continue, but they need to step their game up.

All right, terrific.

That's it for this edition.

Thank you for joining us.

And please keep in touch with us on social media at @To the contrary, please visit our PBS website, which is on the screen.

And whether you agree or think to the contrary.

See you next time.

(MUSIC) Funding for To the Contrary provided by the E. Rhodes and Leona B Carpenter Foundation.

The Park Foundation And the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation