The School of Greatness with Lewis Howes

>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with psychologist and intergenerational-trauma expert Dr. Mariel Buqu.

Today, she shares how to understand the different levels of trauma so we can begin to heal, how to deal with triggering moments, and the benefits of regulating our nervous system every single day.

I'm so glad you're here today.

So let's dive in and let the class begin.

A lot of people are afraid to go back into the stories of their past.

>> Yeah.

>> They're afraid to face the pain, the traumas that they're aware of, and also to face the things they're unaware of, the generational traumas.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> Why is it so hard for us to face these past traumas and pains?

>> A lot of what makes it hard is that people start feeling really unsafe in their own bodies whenever they're talking about trauma.

Trauma is, like, that area of mental health that we're still a little bit tentative about touching in conversation.

And so it makes it so that people, you know, don't necessarily want to get into the nitty-gritty of not only trauma and understanding what trauma is, but also, like, how trauma impacts their own lives, how trauma transcends down their lineage, how trauma has been a part of their lives, because people will exist in trauma, but then have a tough time even acknowledging that it even is a thing.

>> So, what would you say is the percentage of people that exist in trauma in the U.S.?

>> Oh, goodness.

Well, I mean, I saw, not too long ago, like, this statistic.

I think it can be variable, because we got to acknowledge the fact that some people won't actually acknowledge that they're in trauma or know that they're in trauma, right?

So -- But the statistic said somewhere around like 65-or-so percent in a lifetime.

So, like, someone will -- 65% of the population in the U.S. will experience trauma in their lifetime, some element of trauma.

Now you layer in a pandemic.

>> Alright.

How many people actually face their trauma of the 65%, you know?

>> Now we're talking like really, really tiny numbers.

>> Little mountain.

>> Because we have to acknowledge that people are also not in the know that they're existing in trauma.

People believe that the way that they're experiencing their emotions is status quo -- >> This is the way it's supposed to be.

It's the way I am.

>> That's all they know.

They've never been taught otherwise.

What they've seen in their families has been a representation of trauma responses, and it's never been anything unlike what they experience in their day-to-day.

So for them to actually even get to the point of saying, "I have trauma in my life, oh, I have something to work on, oh, I can, like, commit to actually working on this, I don't have to exist in trauma" is really unheard of for a lot of people.

>> What are the levels of trauma?

You know, is it like low-level trauma versus a high-level trauma?

What are the differences?

And how can we identify, "Oh, I think I'm experiencing trauma in my body right now"?

>> Well, you know, I think we have to, like, define trauma, right?

So, trauma is basically an acute emotional response to a life event that is extremely stressful.

Sometimes, that life event is threatening to your physical safety.

Sometimes, it's threatening to your psychological safety.

Sometimes both.

And so if we can understand, "Okay, this is what trauma is --" >> It's an emotional response.

>> It's an emotional response to an event that is extremely stressful.

>> So it's like -- So it's a trigger.

You know, it's like if someone says something in your space and you're like, "Ooh, that triggered me.

I don't like that feeling.

I don't like what they said.

I don't like what they did or their actions."

There's an event happening in the world.

Your response to it is emotionally charged.

Is that what I'm hearing you say?

>> Correct.

It's emotionally charged and is correct -- It's also directly connected to your nervous system.

So when people say "I'm triggered," what they're saying is, "Some aspect of my experience is in fight, flight, freeze or fawn."

>> Yes.

>> That's what they're saying.

And if I'm in a trauma response, it's your behavioral response to being in fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.

>> Uh-huh.

Yeah, you could be reactive or screaming and you'd be like and -- >> Avoiding.

>> Exactly.

>> That's the flee.

The freeze is like dissociating, disconnecting from your environment and really being in that protective, like, mental space.

And then collapsing completely is the fawn response.

>> Or numbing, right?

It's like people do a lot of numbing, which drugs, alcohol, or addictions of any sight.

>> All of it.

>> I think a lot of people can relate to this with friends, family members, relatives, you know, where, like, something from childhood triggers them as an adult, and they haven't figured out how to either heal the memory of the trauma or just be in the environment with people that triggered them so much as a kid growing up.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> If someone has a relative or someone that's in their environment, in their space, that triggers them so much, how do they not kick them out of their life completely, but also create a boundary so that it doesn't affect them with the words they say, with the actions they have, things like that?

>> There are different variations of how people do that.

And that's why, like, you know, I love this work so much, because you can be really creative with a client as to what will work for you, right?

Where can you create some element of a boundary that can also keep you at close proximity to the people that you love because you still want to be in that space?

>> Yeah, you want to be in their life.

>> Right.

And you want to be able to still be unified in some way, but still preserve your energy, right?

In the psychological world, especially in, like, dialectical behavioral therapy, we call environments that still embody some of the trauma responses or the chaos a strong environment.

So you're going back into that strong environment that's, like, immobile.

It's inflexible.

The trauma responses are embedded in that environment and have been for generations.

People just operate that way at home, right?

So the biggest thing that we have to do is not only to train the nervous system to be able to be well in the strong environment -- right?

-- but to train people to hold on to that, because, eventually, even if it's microscopic changes, the environment will shift, because you'll be showing up differently in your environment, so the environment is going to shift accordingly.

>> What are a few strategies someone can do to, I guess, work with their nervous system around people that trigger them?

>> Oh, you're talking my jam.

This is my -- [ Both laugh ] This is the stuff I love.

>> You know what I mean?

How can they shift so that the environment shifts?

>> And I'll preface it this way.

This has to be a daily practice.

Like, people have to get into the practice of nervous-system regulation on a daily basis, especially if they come from a lineage of trauma or if they've experienced trauma just in their lifetime.

And the three practices that I like the most -- I like them because they're accessible, because you can do them anywhere and because they actually work.

And the three are, like, breath work -- I think people -- Like, the saying "Take a breath" has been so widely popularized.

Like, "Are you taking a breath?"

I love that.

>> I do it all the time in my interviews, too.

>> That's one of my favorite things that I've been able to acquire as, you know, I've kind of, like, undergone my own journey that now, by default, I do that, too.

>> Just throughout the day.

>> Yeah.

You know, because it's almost like your body is taking care of you now, right?

Like, you've done all the work to, like, "I got to take care of this body, I got to take care of this mind."

And now it's by default.

And that is building mastery.

It's like you have mastery over the task of actually doing deep breaths whenever your body needs it.

>> As opposed to holding it in all the time, yeah, or short breaths or holding it in.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> It's interesting.

Okay, so number one is breath work.

>> Yeah.

And breath work that is at least for five minutes.

So, the nervous system needs at least that amount of time to actually catch up.

And it's important to value breath work even though, you know, we have so many, like, ways in which it's been, I think, overdone or people just, like, discount it because it's -- you know, it's been talked about so much.

But the thing about breath work is that, eventually, your nervous system can't operate in the stress response and in the breathing response simultaneously.

>> It has to relax.

>> It's going to have to.

>> Yeah.

>> And so you keep it going until you feel that.

And for trauma survivors, you know, it can take a little bit longer because there's a lot of undoing, a lot of decades, right?

And so the breath work is going to be key.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> One of my other favorites are, like, humming.

Humming also -- >> So powerful.

Breathing and humming at the same time.

This is what they teach you in yoga and, you know, deep meditation practices.

>> A lot of chanting practices utilize them, yeah.

And the "om" sound, right?

Like, really bringing that out actually triggers the parasympathetic nervous response, which is the part of the nervous system that initiates -- It's also called, like, a ventral-vagal response, which initiates a relaxation process, a rest and recovery for the nervous system.

So it's really essential for people to actually do humming.

And the same rule applies.

Do it until you feel like, "Okay, I'm in a steady place."

One client one time, like, did so much of the humming after I prescribed it that they were hoarse.

>> Yeah, right, right, right.

So much.

>> But, you know, like, I think, you know, that also is a testament to commitment, right?

Like, if you can commit to it, like, do it and do what works.

And the third one that I like is rocking, just rocking your body.

And I think for the busy minds and busy -- I'm a busy mind.

So I think it works for me to do all three.

>> Yeah, of course.

>> Yeah.

I just integrate it.

I do my own thing, you know?

I rock, I breathe, I hum.

And, you know, it allows me to really integrate the practices to get the full effect and to also, you know, just, like -- My mind is so preoccupied also with making sure that I'm on the technique that it adds a bit of mindfulness in there because I'm very present-centered.

>> Yeah, that's good.

What's the difference between the traumas that happen to us and the generational trauma that happened to our ancestors?

>> Mm-hmm.

So, the major difference is placed in biology.

So there's a genetic component to intergenerational trauma.

And so intergenerational trauma has this way in which there is a genetic transmission that happens from parent to child.

>> Really?

>> And so it creates a predisposition to vulnerability to stress.

>> Give me an example.

What's a common example you see in your practice that is a generational story?

>> Well, I mean, you know, there are people that will come in and say, you know, "Ever since I was a child, it was, like, difficult to soothe.

And I was -- You know, I had, like, this hyperactivity."

There's a lot of trauma survivors that also, like, believe that their symptoms coincide with ADHD because there's a lot of overlap in the experience, in the symptomatology.

So there's a lot of that.

There's, like, people that, you know, reflect back to their childhood and they say like, "I've always had, like, this experience that felt like I was always anxious."

When we dig into the layers and we dig deep, we start noticing, okay -- Especially because I do a lot of, like, family-tree work and, like, really going down the lineage to know like, well, what are some of the trauma responses or what are some of the responses around -- Also, like, inflammatory responses, like depression or anxiety or other kind of, like, mental-illness, you know, kind of experiences that were held in the family.

And when we start going down the family line and we start exploring not only their childhood and how they responded in their childhood, what their attachment patterns were in their childhood, but also how perhaps, like, their mother had an inner-child wound and their mother's mother had an inner-child wound -- >> And they never healed it.

>> Never healed it, expressed it as a trauma response, yelled and screamed in the home, you know, had, like, emotional outbursts.

What did that do?

That actually created a disruption in the attachment that you could have had, like, in your childhood.

It created an insecure attachment.

You then went out into the world and experienced bullying, a pandemic, like, all kinds of things.

And then that trauma, you know, propensity or vulnerability got triggered out.

And so now you are continuing the cycle of intergenerational trauma because it was modeled to you genetically, it was passed down, And then, you know... >> Now, is it genetic or is it -- Let's say the mother breaks the cycle before -- She heals her trauma, the generational trauma, before she has her child.

>> She can.

>> And she creates an environment of peace, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> Is it the environment or is it the biology, the genetic code, that is passed down?

Because it's like these environments are kind of passed down.

If you witness your parents doing it, you just follow the pattern and you follow the environment pattern.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that genetic?

Is that environment?

What is -- Both or... >> It's both.

It's like, you know, for as long as psychology has existed, we've had, like, theories on nature/nurture.

Darwinism also kind of just started that -- right?

-- like, way back when.

So, nature being, like, the biological aspects of our experiences, and then nurture being, like, the social aspects of our experiences.

And intergenerational trauma is really the only trauma that is situated at the intersection of both.

So, we have the nature side -- Yeah.

So, you know, on the nature side, the genetic expression -- Like, we're getting a lot of information from, like, the field of epigenetics, which helps us understand how behavior, like, impacts genes.

And, so, basically, what happens is that -- Let's say a mother.

A mother has stress and depression in her life.

Let's say that this mother is actually pregnant, at five months' gestation.

So, she's pregnant.

She has a baby in utero.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And because she's at five months' gestation, that baby also has all the precursor sex cells that they're going to have for their lifetime, regardless of whether it's male or female.

They already have those.

So, the mother, she experienced chronic trauma her entire life.

And so because that became the status quo, her genes re-expressed.

So her genes said, "Okay, this is the way that things are.

We are a stressed body."

And so because her genes are now saying, "We are predisposed to stress," that's being handed down to the baby in utero, actually at conception.

>> Wow.

>> So the baby is conceived into genes that are predisposed to stress.

And because she is already still stressed while she's having this baby, all those stress hormones, namely cortisol, those are being passed down to the baby in utero.

And what's happening to the precursor cells?

Those are also ingesting a lot of that stress environment.

So you have three generations in one body genetically being passed down, the stress vulnerability, but also the social piece, the mother's stress.

You know, like, she has all her things going on.

She's predisposed to trauma.

She's got all these things going while she's, you know, still pregnant.

>> Her environment is still stressful, yeah.

>> Yeah.

And, so, everybody in that lineage of three generations in one body is experiencing stress.

>> Is it just three generations or is it, like, every generation that's had it?

>> I think it's a little bit of a chicken-and-egg kind of phenomenon when it comes to intergenerational trauma, right?

Like, it's like, who started it, right?

But I think I illustrate that because it's, I think, a little bit easier to see like, "Oh, well, maybe it started with Mom.

Maybe she was, you know, the person that --" >> Maybe she had an extreme trauma, and there was a reaction response, yeah.

>> Exactly.

Right?

And so now we at least get to see where the genetic line started from the trauma perspective.

>> When you think about it that way, you're like, "Man, I'm carrying the weight of, you know, multiple generations of trauma in my genes."

Like, physical weight, actual weight.

>> Yeah.

>> That could get a little dark and heavy if you really put the emphasis on that.

So how do we actually break that cycle once and for all, where none of that trauma stays with us and we don't pass it down to our kids?

>> It definitely has to be a very, like, whole system overhaul for most folks.

Like, it has to be, you know, an integration of holistic practices in our day-to-day lives.

>> Daily.

>> Every single day.

>> Like, a daily practice.

>> Every day.

Can't waver on it, because we got to think about what we're undoing.

We're not just undoing the decades of trauma -- >> That you experienced, yeah.

>> You're undoing all the -- >> You really need to have a rebirth.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like a spiritual, psychological, emotional, nervous-system rebirth, in my opinion.

>> Absolutely.

>> How important is finding a meaningful purpose in life -- supports you in overcoming feeling depressed or depression?

>> It's, like, so critical.

>> Really?

>> Yeah, 100%.

I mean, like, when we're talking about what happens after trauma, meaning-making is at the center.

It's, like, one of the biggest things, because you have to see your life having some sort of value and that there's meaning associated with your life and with everything that's within your life in order to actually, like, even feel motivated to do the heavy lifting that is the healing work to get yourself to the other side.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So you have to have meaning in that journey.

Meaning-making -- it's alchemized in that journey.

It's created in that journey, right?

But I think, at the very least, you have to have hope that meaning-making can be possible.

>> Mm-hmm.

Because what it sounds like to me is a lot of people attach meaning in a more negative, harmful state to events, to words, to actions that happen around them, and, therefore, that meaning causes more depression, ADHD, or, you know, negative thoughts, all these different things that hurt us.

>> Yeah.

>> But if we created a different meaning around the event or the words or the event -- the breakup or the loss of career, created a new meaning around it and had a different intention, a different purpose moving forward, we wouldn't have those mental challenges as much.

>> Yeah, I mean, I think people, you know, just haven't been trained to ask themselves the right questions around meaning-making, right?

>> What's the right questions?

>> Well, the right questions are, you know, well -- >> Like, somebody experiences a traumatic event or -- big "T" or little "T" -- what questions should we ask?

>> Yeah, we should be asking, you know, so, questions around -- Well, let's talk about what was learned in that circumstance.

That's a really hard question to ask, because sometimes people will be like, "You really -- You think that that needed to happen?"

No, it didn't need to happen.

>> It did happen.

Can't change it.

>> You can't.

That's in your history now.

But what can we take from that experience?

And it doesn't even need to be the traumatic event itself, but your response, your reaction.

What can we take from that to learn how to now create a healing protocol for you?

>> If someone stays committed to their story of meaning, that it was this horrible event and it ruined my life, what happens if they hold on to the meaning in a negative way as opposed to "That was a traumatic event, I don't wish it upon anyone, but here's what I learned from it, here's what I gained from it, here's what I'm going to do with it in a positive way"?

What happens to those?

>> Well, the way that I interpret that is that that person is, one, still in a state of fear.

They're not ready to really get curious about what other definitions meaning can have in their life.

And so if that's the case, then my role as a clinician or their role as a person that wants to get out of it, hopefully, is to work on the fear.

You got to work on, where is fear trapped?

How is the nervous system operating around fear, right?

Like, where can we free them up in a bodily sense?

Because the nervous system requires a lot of that body-based work.

And so we have to, like, really get curious about that and, like, go in that direction versus -- You know, the questions are very mind-focused, right?

But we need the body-based practices in order to create safety in the body -- >> To release also, right?

Release the fear, the pain, the trauma, and reconnect to the safety of your body.

Is that right?

>> Exactly.

And so that -- When a person can feel that there is safety in their body, they can feel that they can actually go into the depths of their minds in a way that doesn't feel scary and existential.

>> I just feel like a lot of people doubt themselves and they have a lot of self-doubt tied to previous events, right?

"I failed.

This person made fun of me.

I was laughed at.

I was bullied.

They broke up with me.

I lost a job."

Whatever it is, all these events then attach to their self-worth, their identity, and they doubt themselves because of a series of events.

How do we break that so people can learn to believe in themselves more, even if they had different events happen that didn't go their way?

>> Well, I think some of it has to be like a reconfiguration of their self-concept.

Like, it's very self-oriented, right?

Because, like, now we're talking about when someone said something to them about their clothes, how now they, like, you know, have this, like, perception of themselves and how they dress that's negative, you know, or ill-fitted because of what was said.

So now it's become a part of the self, right?

So a lot of the work has to be central to the self.

Like, how do we get you to a place where, you know, you're embodying either a more neutral or more positive sense of self and that your core self isn't, you know, an amalgamation of, like, all of these negative experiences and how you then translate it and internalize those into how you see yourself and how you see the world?

>> How do you teach that to someone?

What's something someone can do if they're listening or watching and they don't believe in themselves or they have a series of events that remind them, "See, there I go again.

I'm not good enough for this" or "I don't deserve this."

>> Mm-hmm.

>> What can they do to start having a different view of self?

>> I like the idea of challenging, of challenging thoughts, right?

But the thing about challenging thoughts is that the first step is that we have to write down the limiting thoughts that have been there, right?

We have to write down the emotions that have been associated with those limiting thoughts.

And then we have to challenge those thoughts, like, actively challenge them.

There's so many of us that are walking around this world not having challenged a lot of those initial ideas that we've created around ourselves, regardless of where they came from.

They could have been from a parent who told you, you know, "You disappoint me.

You're not good enough."

Right?

And that manifested into a mental representation of themselves as not being good enough, right?

But we have to look at the root and then challenge the root.

An emotional piece that -- I like the work around emotions to be, like, very body-centered, because emotions are very situated in the body.

And so it's a mind practice, in that we're writing all these things down, but it's also a body practice.

>> It's an integration.

>> It is.

>> Mind and body.

You've got to integrate it.

What do you think's going to happen in the world in the next 3 to 5 years if people don't face their traumas?

>> I think we're going to see a lot of -- It's not just going to be on the personal end that we'll see the continuation of these generational cycles of trauma.

I think it's going to be that we're going to continue to institute policies.

We're going to continue to, you know, just operate in the world in a way that is driven by a lot of hostility and aggression that is a representation of unhealed wounds.

>> Yes.

It's a question I ask everyone at the end.

It's called the Three Truths.

So, imagine, hypothetically, it's your last day on Earth, many years away.

You live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day.

And you accomplish all your wildest dreams.

But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to another place.

>> Yeah.

>> But we have access to three things that you would leave behind with the world -- three lessons or three truths.

What would you say are those three truths for you?

>> You are not just what happened to you.

You are abundantly so much more.

I would let people know that healing is a lot of work.

It sucks.

It just bends you and twists you into different uncomfortable shapes, but it is incredibly worth it.

And that no matter where you are in your healing journey, today is always a good day to start to break the cycle.

>> Mm!

Final question for you.

What's your definition of greatness?

>> You know, it's found in everyday people, the people that alchemize from the ashes, you know, and become cycle-breakers, very much like you have.

And I just think they're the bravest souls on this planet.

And that, to me, is really great.

>> Mariel, gracias.

>> Lewis, such a pleasure.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

Now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course "Find Your Greatness" is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.