By The River

Holly Jackson> Beaufort based travel journalist Lynn Selden writes books inspired by his experiences at a military university.

His book, "Carolina's Ring", is a modern coming of age story following three friends from the foothills of South Carolina to the campuses of the Virginia Military Institute and the Citadel, and ultimately to the global war on terrorism in Iraq and beyond.

Lynn talks about his special friendship with Pat Conroy.

I am Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established southern authors as we sit By The River.

Narrator> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina for more than 40 years.

The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

Holly> Hi, I am Holly Jackson, your host for By The River.

It's a show that goes beyond the books.

It helps you get a better understanding of the journey that led the author to their book.

And we have a great lineup for you this season.

Today we are sitting down with Lynn Selden, author of "Carolina's Ring" and "Virginia's Ring", and a whole lot of other stuff.

And thanks so much for coming.

I'm really excited about talking to you for a number of reasons.

We're going to talk about books.

We're going to talk about Pat Conroy.

We're going to talk about VMI.

So we got to get to it because there is a timer going.

Lynn> Sounds great.

Holly> All right.

So you live right here in Beaufort, South Carolina, where we are now.

Lynn> Exactly.

Holly> Gorgeous area.

All you have to do is visit once and you fall in love, kind of place.

Right?!

Tell me about your latest book, "Carolina's Ring".

Lynn> Sure.

It's, basically book two in a trilogy, a planned trilogy.

And it's a story, it's a, it's a love letter to schools like the Citadel and VMI and it involves twins.

One that goes to the Citadel and one that goes to VMI and they're in love with the same girl named Carolina.

And then things happen.

Holly> All right.

Already sounds beautiful.

Tell me where this idea of the rings kind of came into play.

Lynn> Sure.

Actually, it was about 13 or 14 years ago now.

It was when Pat Conroy came out with "South of Broad" and he was doing a, a big signing up in Charleston at Blue Bicycle Books.

It turned out to be one of his most legendary book signings, which takes a lot because he had some big ones.

that lasted more than eight hours and people were lined up King Street for hours.

Holly> Wow.

Lynn> So anyway, we met the next day through a mutual friend in tourism and picked him up at the hotel at Mills House and was the first VMI graduate ever to take him - a Citadel graduate to lunch at Slightly North of Broad.

And I had all these questions I wanted to ask him, and at the end of the lunch, he knew more about me than I did about him.

He was the quintessential questioner.

And he'd always liked you to tell him stories.

Holly> Right.

Lynn> Then he...would steal them Holly> Yeah.

Lynn> Write about em.

Holly> They'd wind up in a book somewhere.

Lynn> Exactly.

Holly> Right.

Okay.

I have a lot of questions off of that one answer.

So, eight hour book signing.

What was the deal there?

Were there so many people or was it that he just took that time to speak to every person?

Lynn> Both.

Yeah.

Pat always took the time.

You felt like you were the only person in the bookstore when you were talking to him.

He, he taught me how to be an author.

I'll never have lines like that, but he would look you in the eye and he would talk to you like, you know, he had all day when... when he didn't, and that's why they lasted so long.

But I think that one, I believe he signed 700 or 800 books, just the night before in preparation for it.

Holly> Okay.

So were you a super fan at that point of his, or did that come after the watch?

Lynn> A super fan of the writing Holly>...of Pat Conroy... of the writing.

Okay.

Lynn> The writing The writing.

I read everything, of course, started with the "Lords of Discipline", which came out, which was about the Citadel, obviously right before, or right when I was at VMI actually.

So, I was a fan and this person in tourism in Charleston knew it.

And that's how we were introduced.

By the end of the lunch, basically I was a fan of Pat Conroy, the person, and it, it went from there.

Holly> Okay.

It's not uncommon for this show to drift off into reminiscing about Pat Conroy because we, we have of course, here in Beaufort, the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

And then just, you know, so many southern writers have been influenced by him in some way.

Yeah.

So that part is not unusual.

Tell me about how after that lunch...the, the relationship grew and how he, as a person, not only a writer, but a person inspired you as a writer.

Lynn> Right.

So I was, by then, I was 20 years into a career as a travel journalist.

That's how I, I made my living and that's how Pat and I sort of connected originally.

He was in interested in the travel side, as well.

He's a big traveler.

So at lunch that day, he said, you know, have you ever written fiction?

I'm like, no, I really haven't.

I'm...really, you know, more nonfiction.

He said, you know, no one's ever written a coming of age book about VMI, like I did about the Citadel with the "Lord's of Discipline".

And I was reading some of your, your stuff and I think you could do that.

You know, would you ever think about writing fiction?

I'm like, sure.

You know, I didn't think much of it.

Got home that night and about 11, 11:30 the phone rings and caller ID says Donald P Conroy.

And that was Pat's full name and P for Pat.

Holly> Right.

Lynn> And it was him.

And I was like, wow, Holly> Is someone playing a joke on me?

or is it, I'm dreaming what's happening?

Lynn> And so I answered the phone and he goes, Seldon.

Pat.

How's the novel going?

And he had given me the idea like 11 hours before.

(Holly laughs) And that started a series of late night phone calls for which I didn't know at the time.

He was quite legendary with other writers.

He was a, he was a mentor to a lot of writers and encourager of, of writing and publishing, and spent more time doing that than he did writing later in his life.

Holly> You know, I've said this before and I feel like I just can't say it enough.

It always just kind of... amazes me, really that lack of like the, the competitiveness.

You know, competitiveness feeling within this writing community.

And I, I feel like he, especially in this southern writing community, has really played a big role in that, in not letting that happen.

It's been more of this like, cheerleader, encouraging, Lynn> Exactly.

Holly> Let me see how I can help you get where you want to go.

We're really carrying that forward as a, as a tribe of, of doing that.

You know, if, if I can't do a signing or I can't do an event, we refer other folks and there's really this incredible lack of competitiveness.

And it's more about just sharing and, and all sort of marching forth together in Pat's giant wake.

Holly> And that, that's just really a beautiful thing.

And it's something that I've learned through this show that I don't know that all readers understand and know, but I, it just makes the whole experience so much more beautiful.

Lynn> Absolutely.

Holly> And you kind of feel like you have to, or you really want to return the favor to somebody else.

So, I like that.

Alright, back to more of your writing.

So I want to get shift off of the books that we see right here for just a minute and talk about how you and your wife are kind of a team when it comes to the travel writing.

Tell me about, you know, what kind of travel writing y'all do.

Lynn> Right.

Holly> And where we might see those, you know, articles or, Sure.

So my wife and I have been together as a team, writing team for 20 years.

Married and together for a little more than 30 now.

But basically one of us writes a story, the other one edits it, and it's whoever's most passionate, whoever pitched that story.

And because of the novel, she's been doing a little more of the workload the past few years.

But we write for traditional publications like Southern Living .

A funny story, early in my career, I had a, a month where at Barnes and Noble I had an article in Southern Living and then just down there was another section and all of the magazines were in brown paper wrappers.

And I had a story in Playboy .

Holly> Oh, okay.

Lynn> And so I like to say that my mother was really proud and my father was very proud.

Holly> Yes.

Yes.

That's a great story.

So, so Southern Living, a lot of AAA magazines.

Holly> Okay.

Lynn> Each club, AAA Carolinas has their own club just North and South Carolina.

So they have their own magazine.

Online has gotten really big, as you know.

We write a lot for the Food Network.

Holly> Oh yeah.

Lynn> They have a very robust website that we do a lot of writing for.

We've written about Beaufort, Charleston, Greenville, Asheville, Hilton Head.

Holly> And food and travel writing has a whole lot of perks.

Because, you have to try it to be able to write about...it.

So yeah.

Lynn> It...was a career move on our part that we love to eat.

We love to travel and we, really needed money too.

Yeah.

The two books, the most recent books, travel books that we've done is part of a series.

It's a really great best-selling series called 100 Things To Do In Blank Before You Die.

And we were fortunate enough to be asked to do Charleston and Savannah.

Holly> Awesome.

Lynn> And in both cases, the first 40 of the 100 entries are food, Holly> Oh really?

Lynn> Of some sort, you know, like eat at the Grey in Savannah and Slightly North of Broad in Charleston and that kind of thing.

So... Holly> Very cool.

Lynn> It's a big, big part of our lives.

Holly> Very cool.

All right.

So back to "Carolina's Ring" the most recent, tell us a little bit about this book and the characters that you've kind of connected with in the book.

Lynn> Sure.

So before Pat passed away, we talked a lot about how this book would develop and we talked about the twin characters.

We've always, I have a niece and nephew who are twins.

And so it's been interesting watching them grow up and how they know what the other is doing even though they're thousands of miles away.

Holly> That's fascinating.

Isn't it?

Lynn> Which is the case right now.

So I've always been fascinated with that and the, the play in that and sort of the love interest Carolina basically forcing them to make choices about life and moving forward.

So the book develops that way where the twins go off, as I mentioned to VMI and the Citadel and Carolina goes to Chapel Hill, UNC and just the way it, it, it goes from there.

And there's a lot of honor involved.

We talked about honor earlier and how that comes into play with their relationship and they were, these are all themes that Pat really liked to explore.

One sort of tidbit about the book that I just recently wrote about for Garden and Gun is that, most of the book was written in Pat's office overlooking Battery Creek.

Holly> Oh what an honor.

Lynn> Yeah.

It was, it was a pretty, it was sort of a, somewhat of a COVID development, but after Pat passed away, his office was exactly the same.

Has remained exactly the same.

There are more than 5,000 books in there.

He was a voracious reader and Pat's wife who was also a novelist, Cassandra Sandra King, asked me if I would like to start writing there.

because she knew I was having a little bit of writer's block with "Carolina's Ring".

And the next day I was there and somehow everything started coming together.

And we like to, Sandra and I like to think it was, it was Pat looking over my shoulder and Holly> Yeah.

And moving the novel along.

Holly> Right.

Well we talked about the desire to keep that, you know, encouragement going as he did with you and everything.

But do you all also feel like, because he told you kind of what path you might want to take with these books, do you kind of in a sense like, you know, like you said, kind of over your shoulder, like, okay, I got to do this for him, you know?

Yeah.

For your friend Lynn> In, in a way, yes.

He was so encouraging of getting books out there.

I write almost as slowly as he did books about every eight years.

I, I hope to have a third book- Holly> Do you use the legal pad and the pen?

Lynn> I do not.

Holly> Okay.

Lynn> Yeah.

They're all over the office.

It's, it's so incredible to go back and, and look at some of the stuff, the early versions where nothing is lined out.

He thought through every sentence before he wrote it and it goes on for pages and pages where 'Wow'.

He didn't have to edit it all.

A lot of those are now up in his archive at USC in Columbia.

I've been spending a lot of time there working on a, a different book project that the family has approached us to write about Pat's travels.

Holly> Oh man.

Lynn> because he was a voracious traveler and we're, we're calling it an Appetite For Life Travels with Conroy.

Holly> Oh, I love that.

That's a great title.

Lynn> It's, it's been fun.

The archives are phenomenal.

He led a, a really blessed life.

Holly> That's awesome.

Well, you and I did talk about honor and so I want to take this opportunity to share the story that I share with you.

So those who've watched By The River know that I always somehow give some kind of shout out to a teacher because they've, they've made such an impact on our lives.

We can all name one who, and you, you and I have already spoke about this, but I had this one teacher and it, it started off science in fifth grade, went all the way to high school, a small private school in Bishopville, South Carolina Lee Academy.

And he was a VMI graduate.

And he told us this story about the honor code that they had at VMI and, but he said it in a different way.

Like at VMI, we had an honor code and everybody would just listen to him whenever he would talk about VMI.

But he would say about, you know, you have a responsibility when if you notice that someone is cheating on a paper or doing something, it's your responsibility by seeing that to report it.

Lynn> Exactly.

Holly> And so this story has just become, you know, one that has been everlasting in my life and my kids know about the honor code and you know, everybody that knows me, we talk about the honor code.

So tell me about that.

Just loyalty You know, as a student and that honor.

So the, the honor code is, it's long in some ways, but it's very short and sweet as well.

It's, you don't lie, cheat, or steal nor tolerate those who do.

And that's the part that you're talking about.

And it's a self-policing system and it's what makes VMI and places like the Citadel that have similar honor codes, unique and special.

Because when you come from there and you graduate, you go forward with this brotherhood and sisterhood, now that you have this shared bond of, of honor and having gone through something that's, you know, pretty difficult.

I reported to VMI, and this is fairly typical with about 420 other freshmen at VMI, they're called rats and we've become brother rats now.

And so out of those 184 of us graduated.

Holly> Oh wow.

So Lynn> It's a real... Holly> That's a lot.

Lynn> It's a typical process.

About 50% end up making it through.

Holly> Yeah.

Wow.

Lynn> So yeah, it's, and I just had my 40th reunion and... Holly> Congratulations.

Lynn> Thanks very much.

And the, the, that bond is still just incredible.

Holly> Still strong?

Lynn> Yeah.

It blows my wife away.

She went to JMU.

Great school, but it's just a different, you know, type of, of bond.

Holly> Connection.

Sure.

Yeah.

And by the way, his name was Mark Doty and is Mark Doty.

If I didn't say that, I want to make sure that he gets credit for all that influence Lynn> I'm going to look him up tonight.

he had on my life.

Holly> Yes, please.

So whenever "Virginia's Ring" came out, while you already have that connection still with your, your buddies, your old alumni.

Have you formed any, has it kind of made some reconnections because people are going back in the memory bank and...?

Lynn> Yeah, absolutely, because the, the beginning of "Virginia's Ring" does take place while I was a cadet in the early to mid 80s, and then moves forward to a cadet named Virginia when females were finally allowed to attend VMI.

But yeah, so it, it, it definitely brought me even closer to my classmates, but also graduates from the, the 1940s to 2022 and 23.

I actually was up there for 2023's, the week before their graduation because experiences at VMI don't change that much.

And I talk a lot about that the traditions, how the rat line is, is still the same.

The honor code is still very, very similar.

Everything Spartan living.

So yes, it, it's gotten me much closer to my brother Res, which is incredible.

But also the VMI family, I like to call them a number of parents whose sons or daughters went to VMI read that book when they dropped their child off, they took it home and would get in touch and say, I'm really proud of my son or daughter for going through this.

Holly> Because it gives them a better understanding of what that's all about.

Lynn> Yeah, exactly.

Holly> Yeah.

Yeah.

I like that.

All right.

Tell me about what's next.

Lynn> It's "Georgia's Ring".

Holly> Okay.

Lynn> Along with the book about Pat's travels, Holly> But is the travel all down?

Lynn> Yeah, Pat's like, Make it a series and make it memorable.

The whole ring thing.

It comes from the "Lords of Discipline" because that book starts out with a, a phrase that I have used in both of these books as well and will in, in "Georgia's Ring".

So the trilogy, but it's all about the brotherhood and the sisterhood of the ring.

And if you wear it, you know, you'll see Citadel grads, they'll bang rings when they meet for the first time and that kind of thing.

So the next one is "Georgia's Ring".

I've promised to have it written by 2030, which is about right for me.

Holly> Okay.

It's, still not my day job.

My day job is still travel writing and, and I want to fit in this, this book about patch travels at the same time.

Holly> Yeah.

So, so tell me about your, your writing style.

Do you have a, a time at night, time of day?

Is it more of, okay, I got to hurry up and do this?

You, you feel that on your shoulder type thing?

Lynn> What I did with writing the fiction with "Carolina's Ring" specifically and "Virginia's Ring", as well, is I had office hours and it was, it was my fiction writing time, two to three hours and that was it.

Holly> Okay.

Lynn> Every day, early on it was six days a week and now I'm more with four.

Holly> Are you still at Pat's office?

Lynn> Yeah.

Have you moved on from there?

Still there.

Lynn> After this afternoon I'll, I'll be back there.

Typically it's been morning, but Sandra and I have been sort of playing around with late afternoon because it's just sort of better.

It's, it's a funny situation because she's writing on one side of the house and I'm writing on the other.

Holly> Neat.

Lynn> Yeah.

And I, if, if, if your viewers don't know her work, I would really highly suggest looking her up.

She's just a really great writer in her own right.

Holly> Yeah.

Okay.

So tell me about, has, has anything that Pat said that maybe you doubted and you realized later, like, you know what, he was right about that, that you've kind of come seen, come to fruition?

Lynn> That's interesting.

That's a new one.

That's so hard to do.

Holly> You got to think back.

Lynn> Yeah.

You know, Holly> But I mean, he's kind of told you like, you need to do this, you need to do this.

Lynn> Yeah.

Holly> Have...you ever like along the way said, I really don't think that's going to fly, like he says it is.

Lynn> You know, nothing comes It will tonight, I'll think.

Holly> Yeah, but do you feel like a responsibility to do what he said?

Lynn> Yes.

And mostly that's, that's been true.

Probably the biggest thing with Pat is he was never, never able to say "no" very well.

He was always so encouraging and he would almost do anything anyone asked.

I learned a bit from that one.

I've been working as archives.

I see how many directions he was pulled in.

So I've gotten a little better about saying no.

Especially when it's going to interfere with, you know, the fiction writing time.

Holly> Right.

Lynn> In some ways.

So I probably learned that from him.

He was very encouraging of saying yes to everything.

Holly> Yeah.

Lynn> Which, you know, stood in good... Holly> Right.

Okay.

So remind me how long you all basically were in this mentorship together.

Was it...over a decade?

Lynn>No, seven and a half years.

Holly> Seven and a half years.

Lynn> That's about right.

I was at the Charleston Wine and Food Festival.

I think it was our 17th straight one.

And he passed on March 4th.

And that was Saturday of the Wine and Food Festival.

And, you know, obviously I came immediately down here and incredible funeral.

He had spoken to the class of 2001 and said, basically Holly> I was hoping you'd tell me this about the ring.

Lynn> Yeah.

Holly> Let's, let's, let's get that story in real quick.

So real quickly he spoke, he was not welcome back to the Citadel for many years.

Holly> Right.

Lynn> But he finally was and came back and spoke to the class of 2001, told incredible stories.

Pat was a great commencement speaker.

This one's if you can look it up on YouTube, it's easy to find it.

It was really special.

But he invited the class of 2001 to his funeral and said, just come and say I wear the ring.

And we were there that day and they were lined up in the blue blazers and the Citadel.

Holly> This is the kind of story that gives you chills.

Lynn> Yeah, it does.

It still does.

And they all wore their ring and, and you know, some of us did things like, you know, we were able to knock on the casket with our rings and- Holly> Wow.

Lynn> It was, it was pretty incredible to see.

And that was that Citadel bond that just never goes away.

And it wasn't just the class of 2001, a ton of his classes, 1967 were there as well.

Holly> Yeah.

It, it's, it's really incredible the impact he made because even after these years, you know, people always say, you know, somebody will never be forgotten.

But I mean, this is in a way like I've never seen before.

Lynn> Right.

Holly> The way the stories keep coming and the emotional impact.

Lynn> Yeah.

People still have on his influence.

Lynn> You mentioned the center here in Beaufort and we see people come there so often and have this emotional reaction because quite often his fiction, his writing or something, seeing him speak, change their lives.

He had many people, and we hear this at the center who didn't kill themselves because of Pat's writing.

Holly> Wow.

Lynn> Because of his stories.

And that will never go away.

And the center, you know, we're in the final home.

I hope for it.

Holly> Yes.

Lynn> It, it, it's a really special place and it's great to see people share those stories there.

Holly> I completely agree.

It's, it's really something special and I hope that those watching will come to Beaufort.

Lynn> Yes.

Holly> And check it out.

Lynn> Please do.

Holly> Well, our time is ending, but this has been a great conversation.

I've really enjoyed it talking about the books, but also talking about honor and talking about just the, the legacy of Pat Conroy and the impact that he's made on so many writers here in our area and really around the world and readers too.

Lynn> Thanks so much for having me.

Holly> Thanks.

Thanks for coming.

And thank you everybody for joining us here on By The River.

We do love having you around.

We will see you next time.

Keep reading and we look forward to seeing you soon.

Lynn> My name is Ben and I wear the ring.

My ring holds stories and so do the rings of several other people in my life, including Carolinas.

She has several rings that have many tails, as well.

I can't remember a time when Carolina wasn't in my life.

She was simply always there, long before we earned our various rings in very different ways.

Carolina was with my twin brother Alf and me when we played in her big backyard beside our little house just north of Furman University's bucolic campus north of Greenville and just south of downtown, Travelers Rest, my hometown.

She was with us on hikes up nearby Paris Mountain and out on the mile high swinging bridge at North Carolina's Grandfather Mountain.

And Alf and I were with her as teenagers when we snuck beers below her family's weathered old Gray beach house down on Edisto Island.

As I remember it, Carolina was everywhere we were, always, well almost.

Holly> Oh, that's a good question.

Let me think about that for a second.

Hi, I am Holly Jackson and I'm the host of By The River, there's so much that I love about this show and I would say if I had to just name one, it's working with the students from the University of South Carolina Beaufort.

I mean, it's just great to have their energy while it seems like just yesterday, it wasn't just yesterday that I was in their shoes.

And I just love being around the excitement and the energy that they have for this industry and what we're doing.

Hi, I'm Tyler Yates.

I'm an editor for By The River.

What I like most about By The River is the opportunity that it gives myself and other students to learn a new skill and practice it every day.

There's so many things to like and to put it into just one, is a challenge, but I also really love the experiential experience for the students.

It takes me back to when I was in college, which was some years ago, and what it meant to have those hands-on experiences and to be part of something that's actually real.

And being distributed nationally.

I'm sure that not many students out there across the country get that kind of experience that they're getting here.

Narrator> Major funding for By The River is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, The ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV and South Carolina Public Radio.