NOVA

Some people have put forward this fascinating proposal this fascinating model, comes from a ghost lineage.

that 20% of our DNA Percent.

What, 20?

Because I know with Wow.

Neanderthal, we're talking about less than 5, right?

I mean, I'll be honest, Like 3, 2. this paper is so explosive Yeah.

now that a lot of us don't right And it's worth saying that know what to do with it.

it's, it's still at the early phases.

it's, you know, But it's coming from some Right.

And this would be really big names.

And the dates are really an unknown species?

interesting and what they're attributing to that DNA.

Ella Al-Shamahi, welcome to Particles of Thought.

Thank you for having me.

Perhaps the most iconic So let's jump right into it.

evolution that I'm aware of is image of human the so-called March Where you go from the little of Progress, right?

and eventually you're at a, hunched over guy, you know, standing upright Yeah.

representation of Us.

Well, I was going to say Yeah.

Like, I was thinking like, something more clever.

who's a long-haired, buff Some white dude in Hollywood, right?

of controversial, so I'm The one I thought of was kind Who's the guy who plays Thor going to withhold that.

oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

in the Marvel Oh, Hemsworth or something?

Yeah, we go from a bent-over Hemsworth, yeah.

And they get yeah, monkey to Hemsworth, right?

So, all right, so is that accurate?

so that is the stereotype It's what has been very that people have in their head.

the public for many, many successfully communicated to Um, there are issues years.

Uh, my first problem with that image, let's say.

with the image is, um, Um, and it should end at, say, there's no women in it, right?

It's like Hemsworth was uh, I don't know Yeah, he was there there with someone else.

Yeah, with someone else.

like, that's, you know, like, I'm just going to say, Oh, the wrong Hemsworth it's Miley Cyrus, let's say.

brother, but okay.

Come on, Hakeem, keep up I know, you know, on your popular culture.

my popular culture knowledge So, you know, I was I would ends in the 20th century.

normally say Oprah, right?

Who does everyone know today?

To be fair.

Yeah, I mean, okay, so Okay, That's the question.

So of all the things so here's the thing, right?

men have done on their own, in the world that, um, This was definitely this wasn't one of them.

But the second problem, with the help of the other sex.

is that it really does give um, that I have with the image the impression that evolution linear and that it's is And by that I mean always linear.

that evolution goes So you go from that like in that straight line, right?

to a species that's slightly hunched over monkey-like animal slightly less hunched, less hunched, ones before you become extinct.

and you keep going, and all the And then you end up That's right.

you know, completely standing with Hemsworth as like, upright, bipedal as we say, Yeah, human evolution blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, no, that's like is not like that.

just absolutely a fallacy.

It turns out we didn't know No, it's not.

that, you know, 100 years ago It turns out we thought that's how it was.

wasn't even a tree, that human evolution crazy bush and just like So it was more like some kind of the first hunched over one essentially have been there at the same could as Hemsworth and they could time have interbreeded in the middle and I mean, all of it, there would have been, right?

it's not this evolves into Okay, yes, except that that.

It turns out that there were they weren't as hunched.

of human that were coexisting loads and loads of species that were contemporaneous If we were here 50,000 on the Earth at the same time.

years ago, how many other human species would be here with us?

So I often describe that period We don't know, but many.

we just think around the globe as a world of many because many different species of there were many, human.

And we're not really Yeah.

We have current estimates, but sure how many.

also it depends who you talk Um, to.

with us, there was probably I would say contemporaneous So I like to think of us maybe about 7 other species.

I would be shocked if that as the Magnificent Eight.

turns So you think that maybe there out to be the final number.

evidence for, are that is what we have So there may be others is what you're saying.

the evidence behind.

that haven't left And I just like just, Hakeem, Yeah, absolutely.

if you think about that, right?

So that means that our Absolutely.

ancestors and occasionally bumping were walking around So, okay, so let me map into another species of human.

So you've got out the world, right?

Homo sapiens, right?

We're in the mothership, Yes.

we're in Africa, right, at this Um, in Africa we think there point when we start, right?

were probably two other Homo heidelbergensis, um, species.

around, and then there was this was probably still hanging small species called Homo And Homo naledi is fascinating naledi in South Africa.

a smaller brain and yet we because Homo naledi had Yeah, I saw that result.

think was burying their dead.

I saw that.

It's supposed to be Big, big ideas, right?

big brainsRight.

Burying your dead is a big Right.

idea.

Yes.

Okay, so that's Africa.

Right.

Two species.

Two species, in Africa.

Yeah, I'm gonna throw in a wild Yes.

card in a second, but we'll get there.

Minimum.

Then you've got Europe Alright.

and into Asia.

Or West Asia, I'm talking likeWest Asia?

that kind of area, um, Iran, up to Iran, parts of Siberia, you've got the Neanderthals, right?

I'm talking India Then you've got East Asia.

You've got a species called out east to the rest of Asia.

the Denisovans, which is worth And then you've got these also talking about.

um, and on the islands there's islands, in Indonesia where you've got this one island called Flores Homo floresiensis, which we nicknamed the Hobbit.

Yeah, but we're talking about Yeah, the 3-foot-tall ones.

with the brain the size a species of human So it's the same size brain, of the brain of a chimpanzee.

and yet they're actually So stone tools which require making actual stone tools.

and which are used certain kinds of cuts That is a much more advanced for very specific purposes.

form of toolmaking So what you're saying than any chimpanzee.

about this human brain, in essence is there's something human species, that's kind even across all these different That there was some innovation of independent of brain size?

think thoughts that no in the brain that allowed it to I think what we're realizing is one else was thinking?

clearly not as important size is important, but it's It's more likely to be brain as we thought it was.

And so the fact that these organization that's important.

them, you're like, okay, small-brained humans were doing This also challenges, this challenges what our kind of perceived notion of you know, what's going on, But I haven't even finished, what's going on in our brains.

by the way, the our little tour Hold on, stay with me, right?

de force of the world.

So we got to the islands and So hold on.

Then there's another island, okay, so the island but this time in the Philippines, in Indonesia.

we think, small-statured human, where there's another, sure they're small-statured.

but we're just not 100% Is the name given Um, Homo luzonensis.

to that species.

And so, yeah, Yeah.

the hobbits, so you've got that, you've got And then in, we think, the Homo floresiensis.

in parts of the Far East, And Homo erectus Homo erectus was still around.

because it was is this really famous species So they were around incredibly successful.

And for like 2 million years.

an ancestor of ours and more we think that they were likely to be a grandparent as And the fact that you've got opposed to a parent of ours.

still hanging around when we're the grandparent that image of the descent of around again, is it's just It is not man linear.

I think it's so much So much more complicated.

But here's where, for me, more interesting.

it gets even more So again, when I started about interesting, right?

thought, all right, 20 years ago, we kind of are, this is how many species there more, but really and maybe they'll find a few with us, at the same time as contemporaneous And it was us and us.

Right.

the Neanderthals.

That's, you know, That's the standard idea.

kind of, you know, and most people in their heads And then they found that seems acceptable.

And let me tell you, the Hobbit species.

it was such a shocking find, partly because it was also of the Rings was, around the same time that Lord people's imagination, so it kind of really captured no, no, you can't get a human but mostly because it was like, because this is quite late now at that period, this isn't like when we first in the, you know, started 2 million years ago.

You can't get a human This is much more recent.

brain and, you know, with a short stature and a tiny slightly primitive features.

Like, we didn't, like, It's just not happening.

There were practically it was so controversial.

throwdowns in some Basically, people would like be academic meetings.

I'm trying to be polite, really kind of, So it's sort of like, but very angry, shall we say?

I'm gonna punch you in the how could you be so dumb?

No, it was honestly, face.

it was people were like, no, these people had, no, this person had microcephaly, it's one individual, you know, like it's an anomaly, this person was diseased, do not be insane, like this is not a whole species, And I remember, you know, I this is crazy talk.

was, like, oh my God, pretty young and I was just Like, because this is so shocking.

it kind of ushered in this era when that hobbit was found, potentially looking at the tip of like, oh my, we are humans were out there.

of the iceberg of how many And yes, lo and behold, Right.

like every few years Particles of Thought is a new species was found.

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com.

It was, it's a really, to kind of see your field really fascinating thing okay, we think we know, kind of go from being like, oh, we don't know.

to suddenly like, At this point, are those 8, We don't know.

are we adding 1, 2 more is that kind of, species, this is just, it's gonna or are we talking like, I often Is there an analog be 20 more species.

to another species that did something very similar We have no idea.

just so that people can that broke up into, have a sense, right?

Wolves became all, but they're Like wolves becoming dogs.

Those who are listening to this still all the same species.

going, okay, When you say species, but hold on a second.

Like when you say us and Homo what do you mean?

erectus, us and the what exactly are we Neanderthal, Right.

talking about here?

They're different species, but So zebras, horses.

Yes.

they're part of the same genus.

Right?

So when we look at a That's what it is with us.

Neanderthal or when we look at Homo erectus, it would be like a looking at each other or one of the three zebra species one of those zebra species looking at a horse.

Right.

Like they're clearly related.

But not to the point Very closely.

that they're the same species.

Got it.

Yes.

It does make sense.

Does that make sense?

So DNA, so you keep saying, oh, That was a beautiful one.

we found this and we found but now DNA has come that, So I've heard word of what in and changed the game, right?

they call ghost lineages.

Or like, what is a ghost So are we talking Casper here?

Okay, so can I ask you, lineage in humanity?

but who is not just as a scientist, When you hear a paleoanthropologist, and ghost lineages in it, that my field has hobbits Now that you've how do you feel?

Do you wanna pointed that out.

Is it time?

re-specialize, Hakeem?

No, I've always loved.

Listen, I have joined Come join me over here.

I've always loved the story you as a hobbyist, right?

And as I've been reading about of human lineages.

I'm really fascinated now the DNA results, because I'm wondering, you first off, for all these know, species we're finding, do we And then is it possible have DNA for all of them?

and do what they did, to look into that DNA for example, when finding the Oh, what do all these have last universal common ancestor?

out where they connect in common so that we can figure Remember when I said there's and those sorts of ideas?

Mm, I do, yeah.

a wild card in Africa?

So when they were looking Okay.

So ancient DNA is basically at the DNA, the ancient DNA.

quite literally ancient, you're looking at DNA that is at you can extract DNA from, but you can do that by looking for example, We haven't quite managed to do Neanderthals and Denisovans.

But also you can look at it from other species yet.

patterns if you look at our Sometimes you can, DNA.

especially if you've got something to compare Right.

So, they know that Europeans it to, right?

and Asians, people in kind of Australasia have a little bit and in the Americas We and also people of Neanderthal DNA in them.

in North Africa, a little bit And we also know that people in South Africa, but not much.

in the world have in quite a few places Right, so we know that there's a bit of Denisovan DNA.

we call them introgression, infusions, so DNA from Neanderthals or of ancient DNA, Denisovans into us, The brutal truth is our species, Homo sapiens.

that when we say species, So I know this is really to some extent, it's nonsense.

painful for a while, because I have just spoken but Nature knows no Right about that.

When I say species, boundaries.

that we have placed this is a category scientists have placed on something, on something, because it So one population broadly fits into this bin.

another population broadly broadly fits into this bin, The bit in between, fits into this bin.

into each other, they might fit the people that sometimes bump Like, it's nature, right?

technically into either bin.

Some species, it's really It's nature.

Other species, easily definable.

So one thing is that, it's harder to define.

first of all, But secondly, that's a massive caveat.

now is hybrid infertility what you're talking about right So I think a lot of us were or hybrid incompatibility.

taught the biological species So that's, concept at school, right?

if like you're one of you is that you're a different species a donkey, one of you is a And youCreate a mule.

horse.

And a mule the mule exists, A mule.

but it can't really That's the um, reproduce itself, right?

Neanderthal DNA in me.

now I'm here and I have Yeah.

Does that mean that the Homo So what does that mean?

were not actually sapiens and the Neanderthals two separate species?

It's a massive area of debate.

Um, the truth is that that It's kind of exhausting.

that we were taught at school definition of what a species is I my first two semesters, went to university in like so there's actually like they were like, yeah, Because we're trying over 20 species concepts.

nature these boundaries because we're trying to give you know, it might work for one and like, So everybody comes up group, it doesn't with a different theory and kind of it's kind of useful work for another.

scientifically, but you shouldn't see it as it's So let me ask you restrictive.

So this is something I just another question.

and I haven't verified it found out again, with an expert like you, but now So, you know, that I have you here, I can.

interested in this and reading over the years I've been really about all of these But then recently I heard, migrations out of Africa.

the DNA, we realize that yeah, once we've studied lineages went extinct, almost all of those was this one group that left and the only one that survived and everyone outside of Africa 60,000 years ago, and that's why descended from that one group, outside of Africa all of the genetic diversity exists inside Africa, because So you've got, so you've got it's from this one small group.

one person in China, You were to compare their DNA one person in Sweden.

And then you've got another two and how similar they were.

people, both So we used to call from the San people.

Um, both from the Northern them Bushmen, right?

Desert, both speaking Kalahari And you were a similar click language.

And I was to ask most people to compare their DNA.

who do you think is more in the general public, The people that live close genetically similar?

that speak a similar click together, that look similar, language, or the people that are Most people go, oh no, okay, literally continents apart?

the people that are continents yeah, obviously exactly, they're going to be apart that look different, They're not.

more genetically different.

It turns out that the two They're not.

people Kalahari Desert are more living in the northern And that only makes sense if genetically diverse.

you Wow.

theory, because what we're think of the Out of Africa Homo sapiens, um, basically looking at here is that most stayed in Africa and only So they only took with them a few people left Africa.

like a tiny amount of that original Like they only took a tiny African diversity.

diversity with them and went subset of the original African populated the rest of the and And what we now think world.

that left, we're talking maybe is that the population And they populated Europe, up to 10,000 individuals.

all the region around Asia, Australia, Wow.

North and South America.

So what was special about us?

Why are we the survivors?

What, because we're taller?

And by the way, that might be That is the mystery.

where the ghost DNA comes in.

Okay, so, so for people that, Yes, talk about the ghost DNA.

wondering if it's a Casper you know, who are like, yeah, uh, when ghost DNA basically situation, um, ghost DNA, in somebody and you're like, means that you see some DNA "Hold on a second.

We can't clearly say that comes We can't attribute that.

or a species that we already from either our species basically Neanderthals have in the data set," like And you're like, and Denisovans.

Who is this?

"This is someone else.

They're a ghost species."

And We don't know.

this fascinating model, some people have put forward this fascinating proposal that 20% of our DNA What?

comes from a ghost lineage.

Percent.

20?

Because I know with Wow.

Neanderthal, less than 5, right?

we're talking about I mean, I'll be honest, Like 3, 2. this paper is so explosive Yeah.

now that a lot of us don't right And it's worth saying that know what to do with it.

it's, it's still at the early phases.

it's, you know, Um, but it's coming Right.

And this would be from some really big names.

Yes.

an unknown species?

And the dates are Wow.

And what they're really interesting.

So attributing to that DNA.

and so, okay, it's fair to say basically what you're talking A little bit of Neanderthal we're slightly hybrid, right?

Some of us more than others.

Yeah, exactly, We're slightly hybrid.

A little bit here, exactly, 100%, right?

But what they're saying a little bit there.

So what they're arguing is 1.5 is we are hybrid hybrid.

million years ago you had Population A Population A, Population B. is where the Neanderthals is where we come from, Population B is come from as well.

Extinct now?

just ancient, right?

Except that then somehow they Absolutely.

That number rings a bell.

reconnected 300,000 years ago.

Do you see why this is Uh-huh.

Do you want to tell them or exciting?

You tell the origin of Homo sapiens.

What?

Yes.

Do you understand why we're We are hybrid.

to do with ourselves?

like, we don't know what What?

There are yeah, Oh my God that's explosive.

that their models are showing a and they're arguing So this ancient human species 20% infusion from Population B. I mean, technically, who when you said, but also technically.

are they extinct?

Well, But we're mules.

functional, they're kind of really really like quite good at yeah, And what they're actually procreating mules.

20% that they think it had showing is the infusion of this the genes, a lot of them neurogenesis, So you're talking were related to neurogenesis.

Yeah.

about brain stuff.

So basically neural genes that So define neurogenesis.

And so effectively what we're are related to neural activity.

of DNA around 300,000 years talking about is that infusion it was related to it might ago, have helped us with brain function.

Wow.

Wow.

The awakening.

It wasn't like, you know, it wasn't like 300,000 years ago, then we were like, And it was slow.

There's that Big Bang of human you know, we were still 70,000 years ago or something.

consciousness idea around And I do think I think I Yeah.

know about 70,000 years ago, don't but That's what they I think That's the old data.

I would argue it's used to say, right?

So I would argue at 300,000 I would argue It's earlier.

I would argue we're years, um, where but something has happened.

the underdog, but with Like, we are a new species.

We didn't quite fully have Something is going on.

the ingredients, but we But what you get when you have had the beginnings of it.

that likes to learn, a brain that is neuroplastic, you get a lot of people, likes to copy from the other, really has a lot um, and you get a species that We like to bond.

of bonding activities.

We like to work with each I know we don't always other.

feel like we do, but we do.

We like to cooperate.

Oh, clearly.

You end up with the perfect Highly cooperative species.

at some point you get storm of cooperation because to a point where it's And I think like people don't explosive.

but I think population realize it, of our success story.

demographics was part So it's Diversity Right.

was our strength.

Wow.

All right, Always.

relatives, our cousins, the let's turn our attention to our Neanderthals and the I look at the word Neanderthal, Denisovans.

But then I hear you fancy I hear "thuh", Neanderthal.

and you say Neander-tall.

scientists say it Yep.

So, I would argue Which is correct?

However, it doesn't really that it's Neanderthal.

matter because it is the common word and not the scientific Okay.

And there's I mean, LatinZ name.

this is some people so there's So it's that when they first a reason for this, right?

they were found found the Neanderthals, in Germany, and basically the, in the Neander Valley, um, the region and the Anglophones mispronounced instead of just with a T, were writing it with a TH So they wrote it which is technically correct.

Homo neanderthalensis with a but technically it is not TH, It should just be a T. the correct German spelling.

But then that would be Ah, got it.

the Neander-talls are a misnomer because Okay, there we go then.

actually Neander-shorts.

That was a horrible dad joke.

I feel like you should go stand I'm really upset with you.

and just think about in the corner, face the wall, So if a Neanderthal was what you've just done.

in the room, would we know?

You know, you throw a Denisovan That was terrible.

would you recognize them as in a tuxedo or a ball gown, just a human that kind of, being a different species or you know, diverges a bit?

It's the oldest joke There's actually a joke.

which is my field, in paleoanthropology, basically one where paleoanthropologist says, "Look, They are just like us."

Neanderthals are just like us.

one in a bowler hat, To the extent that if you put you clean him up a bit bowler you put him in a suit, this big kind of bulge hat because they've got like and you put them on the New at the back of their skull York And then another subway, nobody would notice.

"yeah, no, but that says more paleoanthropologist was like, than it does about about the New York subway like What do they look like?

Neanderthals," which is just This is the thing.

I mean, give a description.

But I think They look so similar to us.

in the show, like, as we kind of showed I don't know, you might be like, Right.

they're a bit funny looking.

Yeah.

Like, you're not sitting there But they're clearly human.

you know, there being like, oh my God, like, goes an orangutan.

And there may be some people Like, no, it's clearly a human.

that are like, hey, let's mate.

So when I started in the field, That's the interesting thing.

people would really argue it was again like something People were like, no way, about.

no way were we mating That was like, this is with Neanderthals.

And then there was others just like, you know.

that were like, absolutely It's really hilarious to be we were, blah, blah, blah.

literally to be describing describing this, of the ancients, and arguing over the sex life but that's apparently And then what our field were doing.

back, and the initial DNA the DNA analysis started coming analysis wasn't quite reflecting the full clear that we Had picture, but by 2010, it was intermingled.

And the more data that comes Yeah.

in, It's quite clear to a lot of us Hakeem, this was not a one-off.

just that us and the other species according to some models apparently it was quite common like that we would Certainly with the just be interbreeding.

Neanderthals, there's quite a bit of evidence for it.

And it It's really interactions because, you know, I do wonder about those a discussion about whether, for a while there was in terms of was it the male you know, what that looked like Homo sapiens that were mingling Homo sapiens, was it the female with the Neanderthals, And there's a lot was it both?

So there is some evidence of disagreement.

that the hybrids, the kind of the product shall we say, the PG-13 of that intermingling, version of sex, is those offspring, issues because of hybrid some of them had the males, there was an sterility or like certainly argument like the female hybrids, that maybe the male hybrid, parent, one Homo sapiens if you had one Neanderthal parent, If you were male, you were okay-ish.

going to be able to pass you were kind of not really on your genes.

It's still kind But another interpretation of hotly debated.

of the data is that actually we, Homo sapiens women, and were running off liked Neanderthal men Or they were taking us.

with Neanderthal men.

And that is fascinating We don't know.

first of all, that's because you're like, I think a lot of people counterintuitive.

thought it was probably going Our homo, to be the other way around.

like, yeah, it was like the that we were running off idea I mean, like, one of with Neanderthal men.

so basically we've always my friends was like, oh, I'm like Right, liked a Neanderthal.

Well, this is it.

the bad boy, right?

So, okay, so how does that Like, genuinely, how does work?

that work in a community?

Like, is that, The tough guy.

Is it like a case of me turning if it's consensual, around being like, "Mom, I love him, how does that work?

like I want" Like, I'm running off with him, would it be like shocking Would they be like, you know, to the rest of the community?

Except that we know my tribe ostracizes me?

that the hybrids, And if they live, quite a few of them lived.

Back then, you needed you don't live on your own.

So some of them were a community, right?

Now, you know, like, there are clearly being accepted.

An ideal case would be if you so many questions about this.

find hybrids amongst a mostly If you find like a graveyard, pure population, right?

ancient Homo sapiens graveyard, a Neanderthal graveyard, of hybrids within it.

there's just a smattering The problem is That's never occurred?

that it's so difficult to find a single fossil.

It's most fossils just Ah, yeah.

So it's and I think this is don't survive, you know.

I usually describe it as like, just generally the problem it's a bit like you'll be given a few pieces of a jigsaw with the whole field.

And nobody tells you puzzle, like 9 pieces.

how big the jigsaw is.

So we don't know, Oh geez.

is the jigsaw 20 pieces?

We've got no clue because we've Is the jigsaw 2,000 pieces?

have so few pieces, but we also got so we just not only do we So if we had that, don't know the context of it.

Sometimes you that would be amazing.

do get fossils which kind So for example, of tell you a certain amount.

there are a few cases of this.

There's a fossil, So in Romania.

actually there's two, Oase 1, And there was a guy, Oase 2, so two individuals.

paleoanthropologist really actually a big And the professor kind of, called Erik Trinkaus.

he was just looking when he was analyzing these, so just the bones, he was like, at the morphology, This is a hybrid."

He was like, "This is a hybrid.

this is before the DNA this is and at the time, So this is pre-2010, stuff came out, right?

people were like, okay, yeah, and people were like some absolutely not, and other people were like, This is Let me ask you you're just seeing things.

not people always a question: are the absolutely Because the same people?

and they were like, were just Anyway, just the way and so, when the 2010 result came out, And then when, But still, it felt like if he people were like, maybe.

got this right Is there Because I'm assuming you don't any way to know for sure?

from those fossils.

you can't recover DNA Oh, they did?

They did.

They did.

And?

They were hybrids?

They were hybrids.

Not first generation, They were hybrids.

not first generation, but like, Like, yeah, it was it was, it was pretty recent.

They had a Neanderthal a few generations ago.

So if we look at, you know, grandparent.

a lot of humans have this small you mentioned how percentage of DNA, And if we took all those small of Neanderthal DNA.

millions of people, could we percentages from all those reconstruct the entire And do we separately have Neanderthal DNA?

entire Neanderthal DNA from Neanderthal fossils?

So we think, but I've heard estimates people kind of disagree, between like little bits of if you use everybody's DNA, Neanderthal, of Neanderthal DNA isn't because my bit the same as your bit That's the bit that of Neanderthal DNA, right?

And if you kind of people might not get.

reconstructed today, I've heard estimates it based on everyone living of the Neanderthal genome and that range between 30% So that's a lot of Neanderthal.

70% of the Neanderthal genome.

Yeah, it's a lot of Neanderthal So that's 50 plus or minus 20.

So we interbred with them, that you could reconstruct.

and that means that they're And the thing that like us somehow.

characterizes Do we know that they had humans is culture.

cultural practices or art I think so many of us, or anything of that nature?

or if you're called when we say Neanderthal, you should rightfully take a Neanderthal, Like nobody's calling you it as an insult, right?

a Neanderthal because they you're cultured and wonderful think and kind, right?

But the more we study Right, right.

that period and those species, archaeology, the more we study challenge our understanding I will say the more they And I think it's been very, of that interpretation.

survivors to portray ourselves very easy for us as the lone And there's like no one as this kind of pinnacle.

here to defend themselves.

Humans even do Right.

that among humans.

We're like, we're Right?

great at this, right?

And yet when we study Yeah.

what we see is constant this species, it might not quite be to our examples of, yes, but we see stuff within them level, I think, have to challenge that makes us, They clearly were collecting our understanding of them.

collecting feathers of feathers and they were colors or iridescence, like interesting And I'm sorry, what are shiny feathers, basically.

you doing with that?

There was that rodent You can imagine.

that people keep as a pet I remember I mean, that's that grabs shiny stuff.

true, with humans, like, except that you think doing that, if this is a Neanderthal that's shiny and they're turning I'm thinking they're collecting They're turning it into something.

Imagine making cloaks or it into something.

Suddenly that impression making fascinating headdresses.

this knuckle-dragging of a Neanderthal as being like Yeah, they have some swag.

ape man is challenged.

It's like, what are you No, really.

Like, it's, you know, doing doing that stuff?

So you're doing it, it doesn't help you survive.

that's, you know But also you there's something going on have examples of care in the there We have a very famous community with Neanderthals.

from a cave in Iraq who was Neanderthal called Shanidar 1 And yet when he was younger, old.

serious injuries that made he had sustained some really There was no way that he was him very severely disabled.

making it to old age on his Oh boy.

He was being looked after.

own.

So this idea that those He was being looked after.

they were throwing their prehistoric humans, but clearly Shanidar 1 I mean, some of them were, And let me tell you, was being looked after.

Like the ones where they handprints are moving.

So they had these cave sites painted on a cave wall?

where they had these Yeah, yeah.

and everyone just assumed handprints, And then they started doing it was Homo sapiens.

and they were like, oh, the dates on some of them, right, that's kind of earlier This looks like than Homo sapiens.

But for me, the really it's Neanderthals.

is that a species The bit that kind of stumps me that feels the need to put hand in like red pigment or red their And because I've been in one ochre, I'll get goosebumps of those caves and kind when I think about it.

And by the way, in that cave of put their hand on the wall.

you get like, you get like also kids' handprints.

Like they're learning off their Wow.

parents how to do this And suddenly you're like, kind of symbolism.. human activity that is at the I'm sorry, that is early human activity.

that is not like We thought that was just us That is late, late.

doing that kind of A species that is making those what does that mean?

it's probably a bit of early kind of handprints, you know, art, but it's probably also early shamanism, like But it's also probably like early spirituality.

you know what I mean?

juvenile delinquents, Yeah, like, you know, Banksy, Like just rebellious.

like Paleolithic Banksy.

But then there's this other Right, exactly, tagging.

Professor Paul Pettit, interpretation.

an incredible archaeologist, realized that you get um, handprints around dangerous a concentration of those Do you understand?

features in a cave.

When I'm crossing in DC at the, Do you understand?

at the red lights and there's a that sign is ancient.

And you know what's wild is That symbolism is ancient.

when he came up with that, Because that, we were like, oh, whoa.

We've noticed we've noticed that as well.

where normally you'd kind around the features of a cave guys, watch it, of shout back and you'd be we're about to hit a dip, like, You get like, we're about to hit something.

it's like markings.

So, you know, I recall, Careful, stop.

there are these silhouette you know, put like ochre or something handprints where I think they Is there any chance whatsoever in their mouth and spit.

that they could get a DNA sample Okay, so what you're describing because it was in their mouths?

So a positive handprint is there is a negative handprint.

where let's say, red ochre you'll put your hand in the, A negative handprint is where and you put it on the wall.

the ochre's in your mouth, and that's a negative Yeah.

Right now, um, yeah, they're handprint.

trying to extract DNA from And the, the thing is, that.

of the cave art is that it's um, the problem with so much inferences based It's like, well, on dates, right?

that the Neanderthals were here we don't have any evidence at this moment, or we don't any evidence that Homo sapiens have therefore it must be were here at this moment, Like, do you know what I mean?

the other species.

And because dates keep shifting Right.

our methods keep getting and they keep changing because you can see how keep improving, um, It's not the most robust There's a lot of uncertainty.

If you get DNA method.

from the spit of the then you're like, well, individual, that's a Homo sapiens, that's a Neanderthal, that's some new species, right?

or that's a Denisovan, or Okay, so I have Right.

And this year he asked me to an 8-year-old son.

buy Yeah.

him some books from this book You know, and it pairs these series titled Who Would Win?

animals against each other, say grizzly bear Right.

That's a bad example.

versus great white shark.

Yeah.

If they're in the water, If they're on land, grizzly.

But let's do that for humans great white shark.

Let's play a game and Neanderthals.

Human versus Neanderthal, of who would win?

in a weightlifting competition.

Okay.

Neanderthals.

Oh, what if LeBron was the human?

Let's just go with an Still Neanderthal.

Right, 'cause Neanderthals average person.

Yeah, let's leave have their own LeBron, right?

LeBron out of this.

Okay, a cold plunge, All right, all right.

Yeah, they're built who would last longer?

for the cold, right?

All right, how about Neanderthals.

a thumb war?

Yeah.

Why, because they Neanderthals, yeah.

We know that they had more had a big thumb?

strength in their pinky than So yeah, they're stockier.

us.

Yeah, stockier.

Okay, all right.

Dancing with the Stars.

Yes, we definitely have better lines, right?

Our limbs are Yeah, Homo sapiens.

more agile, lighter on our feet.

The Bachelor.

I think we were both pretty freaky.

I think both species were just constantly Both species would be like, Just, yeah, just, yeah.

Yeah, I don't think there was yes, I'll take all of them.

You know, it sounds to me like much differentiation a story that's, you know, just getting started, often, but anyway.

even though people have been Or is that the right phrase, doing paleoarchaeology forever.

You can use that, paleoarchaeology?

you can use paleoanthropology, You know, you can use archaeology, yeah.

great we have these stories of these who also had your same job explorers and adventurers that go back to the early Or even the 19th century, 20th century, right?

but what I'm hearing is, is in very recent times, that in terms of our knowledge things are changing fast and understanding Okay, so the thing of Neanderthals and Denisovans.

with the Denisovans is, I would argue it is the craziest story of discovery Because essentially there was that we have in our field.

a Neanderthal finger bone, a tiny finger bone that was It was from Siberia, and it was sent to Germany.

it was found in a cave And they sent it to Germany called Denisova Cave.

to the Max Planck Institute to crush it up to get its DNA.

And they extracted its DNA.

Right?

Amazing.

Only then they started It was a PhD student, actually.

analyzing right, so this is human DNA, the DNA, and they were like, but it's not Neanderthal.

They realized they had It's not Homo sapiens.

accidentally just stumbled upon And so they were like, right, a whole new species of human.

Denisovans after the cave we're going to call them But we're in a really, that they were found in.

We're in uncharted territory like, confusing place.

have a skull or, well, a because normally you would fossil.

This was like a tiny finger You would have something.

bone because it's all been that now no longer existed And like one or crushed up, right?

Like, okay, what did two teeth, right?

And it got to the point where this species look like?

successfully they had analyzed this DNA so of this new species sequenced that they had the whole genome and they still didn't And that DNA was telling us know what it looked like.

So, you know, Tibetans?

stuff that is mind-blowing.

They can exist at high altitude Yeah.

biological mechanism than other because of a very different altitude in other populations that exist at high And the scientists parts of the world.

from the Max Planck realized that I mean, Right?

teams involved, there's quite a few different that they were able to do but they realized that because of mutations that So now they're like, right, they got off the Denisovans.

clear positive selection so we've got cases of really Like, they're like, in modern day.

And it got to the point where who does the species look like?

we were describing it Finding a fossil that went as the Holy Grail.

with, especially one like a skull like a decent fossil, tell us what they looked like, fossil, something that could And then eventually, we called it the Holy Grail.

they found something in Tibet, But let me tell you, like a tiny bit of jawbone.

of jawbone, they were like, it was such a tiny bit this still isn't telling us "Come on, this is like, it looks like."

Anyway, so what actually, it was last year then, There had been a lot of in the summer, so 2025. discussion about this one So it's this one skull, they skull.

There's this crazy story actually called it Dragon Man.

So basically the guy that found behind its discovery.

he said on his deathbed it, it was in China, occupied, he had found that when China was Japanese He knew it was important, this really big skull.

of the well because of so he hid it at the bottom And on his deathbed, the Japanese occupying force.

he tells his kids and they That story is now being give it to some scientists.

it just adds to the incredible questioned, but like, Scientists were looking at this lore that goes behind this.

and in 2021 went, "this dragon And they were like, man is a new species."

Right?

Some people were looking at it it's clearly a new species.

going, what if that's What if that's What if that's our holy grail?

And then just this summer, So Denisovan, the DNA came back and it is.

We have a face for the finger.

the Denisovans are Dragon Man.

I've never seen it like Yeah.

Oh man.

that before, but yeah.

So I understand That is correct.

studying early human origins that now this person who's Yeah, yeah, it's, was once a creationist.

and I, so, people around me knew this, about it in the last few years, I started very lightly talking should we say?

but was kind of very reticent, And only kind of in the summer I understand.

actually did I so the summer of last year, Yeah.

2025, did I actually just Yeah, I was like, guys, come out and say it.

I was actually Oh, you were a missionary creationist.

And so I actually I was a missionary as well?

a Muslim missionary and I actually went to university I was a missionary.

to disprove the theory Because at the time, of evolution.

the community I came from just So is it the didn't believe in it.

have an expectation, case of when you are, before you look like you know what happened You have, I know the answer at the data, right?

before I seek How are you receiving what the evidence tells me.

Because let me just the data and the evidence?

When I see someone criticize add a layer to that.

I'll say to them, okay, an idea like the Big Bang, so what do you disagree with?

Is it the cosmic microwave Is it the nucleosynthesis data?

Tell me the exact data background radiation data?

And most of the time, that you disagree with.

about the data that leads the person has no idea So if you're going into formal to the conclusion.

study, you are being So how do you receive that in confronted with data.

your belief system at the time?

I think that a lot of people, So I think this is the thing.

religious, I'm talking about and I'm not talking about just your kind of general politics, I'm talking about belief system, your ideas I think a lot of us have a about the world and whatever.

And we sometimes just aren't bias.

or we are aware of it but we aware of it, or we don't, um, much it influences how we don't we're not aware of how And so I, interpret the world around us.

was basically like, oh, so being a missionary creationist, incorrect, um, the theory of evolution is because my belief system states it is factually unsound and therefore the scientists that it is incorrect that they're just so biased, must be either lying to us or so biased that they're misinterpreting all this data.

And if you come from a Right?

community belief system as you, where everybody has the same pretty much everybody does.

Yeah.

Our species is a tribal That we're tribal people.

We like it has been ingrained species.

to side with our tribe because, in us you know what, there were no You weren't going to make loners in the Paleolithic.

So I think actually it's a it otherwise, right?

very, to kind of side with your very natural, normal response And also it's like hard to tribe.

think outside of your paradigm.

Like, it's you kind of every Like, it's genuinely difficult.

They'll ask me a question so often somebody and it really and you're like, oh whoa, that blows apart will do it to me.

the way I have seen But at this point, I was like, something, right?

and I was like, that Darwin I was young, And the joke is that I so you fella, I'm gonna take won't know this because it's, it's very, this is a very apart his theory.

I went to University College London London, which at the time was called, thing, but like, the Godless Place still does, it has the nickname because it's like, on Gower Street, it has a real kind of secular We were the first culture and secular history.

institution that didn't require you to be C of E, Church of England, And basically an Anglican.

I studied in the then also, which is named after Charles Darwin Building, Darwin because it was his So I was going into the belly house.

I got this, guys, of the beast just being like, I'll bring down give me a minute.

This 18-year-old the scientific establishment.

just like, you know.

And the thing is like, Exactly, yeah.

you know, I was there and it I think, let's be honest, like, was there was a lot of scientists not like the scientists were condescending?

that could be very And there were some who were I think is a good word to use.

very good in the way that they really, you know, But it was very much like would talk and what have you.

an us and them kind of thing.

And, thinking, oh, this is you know, I went in genuinely you know, like I was like, I'm going to like, this theory is just incorrect.

These guys are just, you know, Like, it's just incorrect.

like, very, very, very, and within, I can't remember exactly how very quickly, I mean, it was really quick, quickly, but like, weren't lying to me.

I realized that the professors They're either lying or Like, there was two options.

because they're they're misreading the data They just could not so biased, right?

So let me interrupt you here believe in scripture.

that I feel like because I've often said perception of scientists, that the public has this we all gather into this one big that every 30, 40 years or so, room and it's always And that is You're not the exact same agenda.

Oh, I didn't know on the WhatsApp group?

But from the meeting in person they upgraded it.

But the agenda is to the WhatsApp group.

What is the lie we're all always the same.

Is it the universe is old, going to agree on, right?

we evolved to be who we are, the Earth is old, I think that is because And the reason why the culture is so Scientists the opposite of that.

making a breakthrough that you hate each other coming up with, If you come up with something yourself didn't make, right?

new, nobody's trying They hate you.

They're trying to bring you to agree with you.

down And I think so they can be the man, right?

get, that this is what people often don't of evolution, if I had overturned the theory I would have a Nobel Prize.

Like, that is what Absolutely.

Like, you don't get me wrong, we are talking about.

let's be honest, you do We can be vicious.

get criticism.

Absolutely.

Like, if you, But that's the point.

and if the data is on your if you are correct though, side, get vindicated.

you do eventually It takes a long time.

It just usually takes time.

But, but, you know Especially Yeah.

based on your social If you're like a, not the right Yeah.

identity or the right 100%.

You know, standing, right?

nobody's buying what I'm talk like me from the South, saying.

But the culture within us 100%.

is that we are nasty and and wanna take each vicious But within that, other's ideas down.

well, if it's correct, there's this arrogance of like, And I think, you know, this will make my name.

I didn't even know, like, because, you know, Right?

I've been doing this since I 18, I didn't know was that when you enter, like, I sound awful when I say this, in conferences or just like but like we would be and it was like you would be at a seminar or whatever, find flaws, egged on to like on stage's ideas apart like to take the person you know, like I had a friend to the point where sometimes, like, like, once look at me and be like, Like, you don't have to take do you know what I mean?

apart, like, yeah, Like, I didn't realize for it's just the culture.

years as how much Oh, in physics they tell you in that culture I was.

I felt so horrible because very, they, man, with physicists, it could be if you're in a conversation You could say, oh, the most meaningless anything.

pi equals 3.14, and I call The well-actually-guy is gonna it the well-actually-guy.

it's blah blah blah blah blah."

be like, "well actually, I don't think you've thought And you're like, mhm, your underlying assumption through all the caveats, or I think is wrong.

You do it because you want to, And it's so here's the thing.

constantly demonstrating but it's also like you're Yeah, so internally, your own intelligence.

transition, how did as you're going through this Especially in the earliest it make you feel?

you know, you start moments as the, and you're confronted with understanding the data your own biases.

It's, um, You know what?

which is that my skin like I have a stress response tingles, and even you asking me that, the skin tingles.

Um, it was, It was really, really it was a stressful thing.

It was, because it was my whole stressful.

belief system, It was, but it went beyond that.

as a missionary, it was my identity All my friends, my family, and it was my whole world.

my ex-husband it was uh, an arranged marriage And so you'd like look at one through that missionary world.

and you'd be like, oh, piece of evidence like fruit flies, okay, like Drosophila, um, they've managed to show, prezygotic isolating which is, technical term, mechanisms, it's basically the bit but anyway, that happens before speciation I was like, oh, in lab experiments.

can be replicated in labs.

so potentially speciation But you know what, Oh, that's difficult.

like, it's labs.

I mean, I gotta say, so I Right, right.

think, I think the experience of going um, through let's call it what it Yeah, like a really, like, is a massive paradigm shift.

shift, not like Oh, like, like an existential paradigm I don't like meat now, or like with no disrespect, but like, it is, it is so difficult.

something that completely It is so painful.

I mean, yeah, it led to some It is.

on my side because I was, pretty severe depression But I think, I think for me, you know, sorry, kind of.

understand and it and I get, what a lot of people don't from when they say this, I get where people come but when they're like, why don't Why don't people just people just trust the science?

And I'm like, because it might trust the science?

mean they have to give I had to leave up their identity.

I had to learn imagine, like, my whole community.

I didn't know how to exist I lived in a culture that was in a secular world.

everyone was really kind, everybody was really tight, you know what I mean?

and one not everyone, It's a warm, loving community.

I had to start doing Tinder, We had arranged marriages.

do you know what I mean?

Let me tell you, Like, that was brutal.

There are few things more that was brutal.

brutal And like, I think than online dating.

are we surprised that people my point is like, have the belief systems And so I just feel like we of their community?

I'm not saying we shouldn't should approach fight for what That's how you people with empathy.

I don't, you know, are when you I'm the same way.

to me online to get me to like, a lot of people have reached you know, talk about why out I'm like, no, absolutely not.

the creationists are idiots.

So you operate with that when Yeah, yeah.

and I'll tell you another thing you encounter people who are that I do is that I don't I'm like, talk to anyone about religion.

if you want to understand I'm not going to talk science, I'll talk to an adult.

to anyone's kids about But if you want to understand religion.

the science, I'm happy to talk all day.

I want to approach I'm like, I believe in nuance.

Ironically, this with empathy.

understand where that tribal I'm a paleoanthropologist, so I to follow your tribe instinct comes from, I cannot explain how many and to believe in your tribe.

people reached out and were like, hey, from my old community by the way, we now believe Even people from that in the theory of evolution too.

And I think what was really missionary world.

that in the space of 13 wonderful was to see um, that missionary world, years or so since I left, loads of people within that first of all, um, are now either okay or the Muslim community, of the imagination, not everyone by any stretch in there that I realized over but there's enough people this summer and going off the summer that if I was 18 I would not be going to university, it, because that's what to study evolution to destroy That's what that's my community that would not And I have no interest no longer a thing.

in getting you to go through what I went through.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

I'm like, I don't need It hurts.

And I think it's funny because to wish that upon anyone.

I having come from a Muslim think, especially it's very easy for people, culture, I had friends in the early days you know, being like, oh my God, aren't you so happy that you're free?

And I'm like Of course.

but I'm like, do you understand swearing in my head, Like, I have, like, what I have just been through?

Like, I, like, I have left my whole world.

except that if you understand and that seems really weird came from, that, like, the world that I because that's what people were friends with you It's a nice world in the sense God wanted, right?

Suddenly I was in this secular that, like, people are close.

prove to me why I London world where it was like, should be your friend.

Right.

Because I exist?

I remember people saying something like, Not necessarily to me, oh, I've got enough friends.

And let me tell you, but just as a statement.

community, I mean, coming from a close religious from religious that's something we can learn Like hearing somebody say, communities, right?

I don't need to like be warm I've got enough friends, was so, and still is a little and like, bit, like so disgusting to me, like so shocking to me.

Like it was such Like how can you say that?

You know, just like you say, a culture shock.

when people ask that question about being free, That's their normal.

what is that, what that says to me, is they've bought into the insight that that gives me They've never been a particular narrative.

They don't know what, how, a part of your community.

if you feel free or not free They just believe in this within your own community.

Yeah, and life is narrative they hear.

Like, let me tell you, I am complicated, man.

really happy about Um, I'm really happy to exist the world that I live in.

However, let me tell you, man, in, in kind of a secular world.

in a really ultra-Orthodox there's stuff about being in a, religious community that I Listen, we need to have like 6 miss.

more of these conversations because this has Yeah, yeah.

been utterly amazing.

Yeah, you're a blast, man.

Yeah.

Back at you.

So Ella, you are amazing.

Thank you so much for coming.