PBS News Hour

GEOFF BENNETT: Good evening.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On the "News Hour" tonight: Elon Musk steps down from his official White House role after overseeing a drastic slashing of federal spending and jobs.

GEOFF BENNETT: Mississippi's governor discusses how Trump administration policy is affecting states, including after natural disasters.

GOV.

TATE REEVES (R-MS): We think that the Trump administration taking a second look at the way in which FEMA operates makes perfect sense to us.

AMNA NAWAZ: And a Harvard professor who's not shied away from criticizing the university speaks out against President Trump's latest attacks.

STEVEN PINKER, Harvard University: This is out-and-out authoritarianism.

This is the executive branch trying to throttle civil society organizations.

(BREAK) AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "News Hour."

Elon Musk's time in the White House has officially come to an end after attempting to reshape the federal government.

GEOFF BENNETT: The world's richest man was tapped to lead a campaign to rein in government spending.

But, as White House correspondent Laura Barron-Lopez reports, Musk's impact remains unclear, and some agency budgets actually grew.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: After a tumultuous tenure in the White House, an Oval Office send-off for Elon Musk.

DONALD TRUMP, President of the United States: We will remember you as we announce billions of dollars of extra waste, fraud and abuse.

Thank you.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Musk has been leading the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE.

But he's hit the time limit as a special government employee.

Still, he's expected to advise Trump from afar.

ELON MUSK, Owner, X: We are relentlessly pursuing a trillion dollars in waste and fraud reductions, which will benefit the American taxpayer.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: His goal was to slash the federal bureaucracy, reducing what he called misuse and fraud.

Months later, he's provided no evidence to back up his fraud claims, but thousands of federal employees were laid off and entire agencies shuttered.

He campaigned on saving the country at least $2 trillion, but has adjusted that significantly down, saying only $160 billion could be saved this fiscal year.

The numbers that have been posted publicly are filled with exaggerated savings and unverifiable data.

DONALD TRUMP: I have to say that the numbers that we're talking about are substantial, but they're going to be very much more substantial with time, because many of the things that we're working on right now, we're going to have to remember Elon as we find them, but the numbers could double and triple.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Over the course of his time in Washington, Musk butted heads publicly and privately with members of Trump's Cabinet.

Earlier this week, Musk for the first time making more direct comments against a Trump priority, telling CBS he isn't a fan of the president's big domestic policy bill.

ELON MUSK: I was, like, disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not decrease it, and undermines the work that the DOGE team is doing.

I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful.

(LAUGHTER) ELON MUSK: But I don't know if it could be both.

My personal opinion.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: But, today, Trump promised to back up Musk's work.

DONALD TRUMP: We're totally committed to making the DOGE cuts permanent and stopping much more of the waste in the months that come.

We put some of this into the bill, but most of it's going to come later.

We're going to have it cauterized by Congress, affirmed by Congress.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: After Musk's send-off, the president traveled to Pennsylvania to celebrate a new deal for the Japanese company Nippon Steel to invest in the Pittsburgh-based U.S. Steel.

Nippon first announced the planned merger in 2023 before it was blocked by former President Joe Biden earlier this year.

Biden said it posed a threat to national security and that it was important to keep the company domestically owned.

On the campaign trail, Trump had promised he would not approve the deal, saying that U.S. Steel had to stay under American ownership.

DONALD TRUMP: I will not approve Japan buying U.S. Steel.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: The details of the new plan are not publicly available, but the president described it as partial ownership.

DONALD TRUMP: The best and strongest steel on Earth will forever be made in America.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Meanwhile, President Trump is still filling critical roles in his administration.

Last night, he nominated a former far right podcaster as the new head of the Office of Special Counsel, an independent federal agency that protects whistle-blowers.

Paul Ingrassia has represented the right-wing influencer and accused rapist Andrew Tate, posted in support of the white supremacist Nick Fuentes and advocated for martial law, posting online in 2020 that it was time for Donald Trump to declare martial law and secure his reelection.

GEOFF BENNETT: And Laura joins us now.

So, Laura, let's start with Elon Musk.

Where does this DOGE project stand now?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So, even though Elon Musk promised some $2 trillion in savings, the cuts are actually much smaller than that.

They're closer to about $30 billion annually.

That's according to Jessica Riedl.

She's a former budget chief on Capitol Hill and is a conservative.

And also the layoffs at the IRS could actually impact the overall savings that DOGE says that it's made.

Now, when you look at Musk and DOGE's work to date, that includes either laid off or fired 260,000 people, 12 percent of the federal work force.

Many of those firings have been challenged in court.

Some of them were rehired.

And the hardest hit included USAID, Voice of America, Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

Most of the DOGE team is expected to stay on.

That's according to Musk and to President Trump.

And Trump and President Musk have also said that they expect more cuts to come from the DOGE team.

GEOFF BENNETT: Musk and President Trump.

(LAUGHTER) LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Yes.

Did I say President Musk?

(LAUGHTER) GEOFF BENNETT: It's OK.

So, even though Elon Musk is leaving government officially, how will he continue to influence the Trump White House and benefit from his time in government?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, there are multiple conflicts of interest and there are examples in the last few months.

So Elon Musk is striking deals., His companies have made multiple deals, like Starlink satellite company with Asia, Asian countries, as well as countries in the Middle East.

And some were announced when Elon Musk was traveling alongside President Trump in the Middle East earlier this month.

Now, back at home, DOGE is expected to continue to influence the Pentagon's contracts and who they decide to get contracts with.

Now, bottom line, Geoff, Elon Musk has received nearly $40 billion worth of contracts over the last two decades, so his influence is not going away.

GEOFF BENNETT: I want to ask you about some other news you reported.

Paul Ingrassia, this right-wing lawyer, former podcaster who has been nominated to head the Office of Special Counsel, tell us about him.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: So President Trump fired the head of the Office of Special Counsel earlier this year along with many other watchdogs.

And Ingrassia is a staunch Trump loyalist.

And he is someone who other ethics watchdogs say that loyalty can ultimately be dangerous.

And I spoke to Jeff Sharlet, a professor at Dartmouth and a journalist who covers the far right, and he says that Ingrassia espouses white supremacist views.

JEFF SHARLET, Dartmouth College: Paul Ingrassia has described exceptional white men as heirs to our civilization.

He has written that the descendants of slaves should be paying reparations to slave owners.

He doesn't have a relationship to white supremacy.

He is speaking from within the contemporary mainstream white supremacist movement.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Ultimately, Ingrassia will have to be confirmed by the Senate.

But one thing about the special counsel, Geoff, is that they are tasked with investigating appeals from federal workers who believe they have been wrongly dismissed.

They're tasked with enforcing ethics laws.

And now some fear that Ingrassia's in this role could ultimately go after the president's foes and seek out retribution.

GEOFF BENNETT: Laura Barron-Lopez, our thanks to you, as always.

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: We start the day's other headlines with the decision by the Supreme Court to allow the Trump administration to strip legal protections for hundreds of thousands of migrants living in the U.S. Today's decision revokes a Biden era program that gave temporary legal status to people from countries facing war and political turmoil.

It opens up the possibility of deportation for some 500,000 people from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela.

And it comes after a prior ruling that revoked protections for about 350,000 additional Venezuelans.

An immigrant advocacy group said today's decision would be - - quote -- "devastating" for those affected.

Former President Joe Biden gave his first public remarks today since he was diagnosed with an aggressive form of prostate cancer that spread to his bones.

Speaking at a belated Memorial Day service in Delaware, Biden did not touch on his cancer in his speech, but he later told reporters he's begun treatment and that his doctors are optimistic.

JOE BIDEN, Former President of the United States: The expectation is, we're going to be able to beat this.

There's no -- it's not in any organ.

It's -- and my bones are strong.

It hasn't penetrated.

So, I'm feeling good.

AMNA NAWAZ: Biden also pushed back on members of his own party, who've questioned his mental and physical faculties while in office and whether he should have run for president.

He said he has -- quote -- "no regrets" and that he would -- quote -- "put my record as president against any president at all."

Dozens of wildfires are raging in Canada's Manitoba Province, forcing thousands to evacuate and threatening the air quality for millions in the Upper Midwest of the U.S.

Massive plumes of smoke could be seen from space and they're forecast to travel south to Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan.

Meanwhile, the Western U.S. is dealing with its first major heat wave of the year.

More than 18 million people are under heat alerts with the potential for temperatures to top 100 degrees in some areas and even break records.

That is, as scientists say in a new study, that half the world's population, about four billion people, suffered at least one extra month of extreme heat last year due to climate change.

Nigeria's government has expressed its profound sorrow after flooding killed at least 111 people.

Rescue efforts are under way in the market town of Mokwa, which is a major meeting point for farmers from the north of Nigeria and traders from the south.

Torrential rains overnight caused the flooding that washed away homes and parts of a bridge.

The region has been experiencing more severe flooding in recent years, which scientists blame in part on climate change.

Officials expect the death toll to rise as the search continues.

In the Middle East, Israeli airstrikes killed at least 27 people in Gaza today, as Hamas weighs a cease-fire proposal approved by Israel.

Hospital officials in Northern Gaza counted 12 bodies, including three women, after they -- were received after airstrikes pounded the city of Jabalia.

Hamas has so far given a cool response to the latest U.S.-proposed true steal, which would not permanently end the war.

In the meantime, the U.S.-backed agency that's largely in charge of aid distribution in Gaza says today it's delivered more than two million meals in its first four days of operation.

But the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation has faced criticism after chaotic scenes this week of desperate Palestinians scrambling for aid.

In the U.K., prosecutors accused a British man of deliberately using his car as a weapon when he drove into a crowd of Liverpool soccer fans earlier this week.

Paul Doyle did not enter a plea during his first court hearing earlier today.

He's charged with seven counts, including dangerous driving and intentionally causing grievous bodily harm.

The 53-year-old allegedly injured 79 people earlier this week during a celebration for Liverpool's Premier League championship.

The charges carry a maximum sentence of life in prison if convicted.

PBS filed a lawsuit today in us district court suing the president to block his executive order that would cut all of its federal funding.

It follows a similar complaint filed by NPR earlier this week.

The lawsuit, filed by PBS and Minnesota public TV station Lakeland PBS, says President Trump's order violates laws that -- quote -- "forbid the president from serving as the arbiter of the content of PBS' programming."

It also claims the order would -- quote -- "upend" public television, which airs everything from children's programming like "Sesame Street" to news like "Frontline" and this broadcast.

Mr. Trump's executive order issued earlier this month demanded that the Corporation for Public Broadcasting cut funding to NPR and PBS, arguing they are politically biased.

Wall Street ended the month of May on a quiet note following a hectic week dominated by headlines about tariffs.

The Dow Jones industrial average added about 50 points on the day.

The Nasdaq slipped around 60 points, or about a third of 1 percent.

The S&P 500 ended the week virtually unchanged.

And Taylor Swift is taking control of her entire body of work.

The pop superstar said today she's bought her back catalog of recordings from their most recent owner, private equity firm Shamrock Capital.

She did not say for how much.

Swift has been rerecording many of her first albums since they were sold in 2019 as part of a larger acquisition of Nashville record company Big Machine.

In a post announcing the news today, she said -- quote -- "The best things that have ever been mine finally actually are."

And the Scripps National Spelling Bee has a new champ after a roller-coaster night where the winner almost lost.

AMNA NAWAZ: Faizan Zaki of Texas fell to the floor in triumph after correctly spelling the French word eclaircissement, which roughly means clarification.

Zaki was the runner-up last year.

But it almost wasn't his night.

The 13-year-old rushed and misspelled a word earlier in the evening, which allowed his two remaining rivals back into the competition.

In the end, Zaki beat out eight other finalists to take home the grand prize of $52,000.

Congratulations to him.

Still to come on the "News Hour": members of Congress face voter frustration at town halls over the Trump agenda; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart weigh in on the week's political headlines; and author James Patterson discusses his new book on what he considers his most important role.

As Republicans in Congress negotiate the president's policy agenda, including potential cuts and changes to Medicaid, states are preparing for the impacts on their health care programs and their budgets.

That includes Mississippi, where nearly 700,000 residents, more than half of them children, are enrolled in Medicaid.

I discussed that and more with Mississippi's Republican Governor Tate Reeves earlier today.

Governor Reeves, welcome back to the "News Hour."

Thanks so much for joining us.

GOV.

TATE REEVES (R-MS): Thanks so much for having me on.

AMNA NAWAZ: So your state lawmakers just ended a very tough battle in a special session to pass a $7 billion state budget.

As part of that, you increased your state Medicaid funding by over 6.5 percent to almost $1 billion total.

Tell us about that.

Is any of that in anticipation of potential federal cuts to Medicaid ahead?

GOV.

TATE REEVES: No, actually, the reason that it was increased was -- goes back to the pandemic level funding.

If you may recall, the Congress made the decision that, when the pandemic was in effect, that our federal match rate actually went from 76.9 percent to 82.9 percent.

So the reduction back to 82.9 percent to 76.9 percent is going to lead to a larger share of our overall Medicaid program being expended by state government, rather than the federal government.

So this is something that's been in the making for a couple of years.

And we will probably continue to see increased spending with that program, although I will tell you it's been curtailed because our economy is going so well right now that we're actually seeing fewer and fewer of our citizens dependent upon Medicaid and other government programs.

AMNA NAWAZ: So, in all the conversation around those potential cuts, is it safe to say that you don't anticipate anyone of the hundreds of thousands of Medicaid recipients in Mississippi to be impacted by the federal government changes?

GOV.

TATE REEVES: Well, certainly none that are eligible.

Mississippi is one of the 10 states in America who have chosen not to expand under Obamacare.

And so many of the work requirements and other things that the federal government is talking about doing, the Congress is talking about doing will have very little or no impact on those states that actually have chosen not to expand under Obamacare.

AMNA NAWAZ: There's a saying I'm sure you have heard.

If you show me your budget, I will show you your priorities.

We noted your budget includes that Medicaid increase, also an increase in funding for your Department of Corrections.

I also saw slight decreases in education, both for K-12 funding and for universities and community colleges.

And it's worth pointing out, while a number of other states saw learning loss, Mississippi had a really good story to tell.

You made significant gains in standardized reading and math testing for fourth graders.

Some people were calling it the Mississippi miracle.

After all of that progress, why cut that funding now?

GOV.

TATE REEVES: Well, we actually have seen an increase in funding for our educational institutions by approximately $800 million over the last four years.

Generally speaking, the $7.135 billion budget that the legislature passed yesterday is basically seeing a year-over-year flat budget.

So we're not seeing significant increases in general in very many state agencies.

And so our actual K-12 budget was up almost $250 million year-over-year in the current fiscal year.

And so to keep that number basically flat makes perfect sense for us.

We have seen incredible results in the classroom.

I couldn't be more proud of our teachers, of our students.

We have gone, as you know, from 49th in the nation in fourth grade reading to ninth in the nation.

We have gone from 50th in fourth grade math to 16th in America in fourth grade math.

If you look at the Education Counts numbers, we have gone from 50th overall in education to 30th in America now.

And so we have made tremendous progress.

And that's because we have got a lot of dedicated people, teachers, students, parents, and policymakers, that are convinced that we can continue to move up those charts.

AMNA NAWAZ: It's fair to say that your state budget could also face some increased pressure when it comes to weather-related disasters ahead.

I know FEMA declared that there were 17 of those in your state over the last five years.

And you had to really push to get some of that disaster relief from the federal government approved after devastating tornadoes back in March.

And we see now that the White House is looking to further shrink FEMA and that federal funding.

I just want to get your take for that and what that would mean for Mississippi.

GOV.

TATE REEVES: Well, obviously, the president has appointed a commission to look into FEMA funding and how to do that going forward.

I don't know that there's any guarantees that we're going to see less federal funding.

I do think there's a pretty strong sense that we're going to see fewer federal employees and give more responsibility and more opportunity and, quite honestly, more freedom for states to run the disasters.

The reality is, if you look at the federal Stafford Act, it's always been contemplated that response to natural disasters are state-managed, locally executed, and federally supported.

Obviously, we have more than our fair share of experience when it comes to disaster management.

And we think that the Trump administration taking a second look at the way in which FEMA operates makes perfect sense to us.

We were very pleased that the president did approve my disaster declaration.

We did have some horrific storms come through our state about two months ago.

And, in fact, one of them hit my wife's hometown of Tylertown, Mississippi.

And so the federal declaration approved by President Trump last week is going to go a long way towards helping us help those people recover.

AMNA NAWAZ: We hope that continued recovery goes well, but I have to ask, in the way of federal support, your state took in over $890 million in FEMA funds for disaster relief.

That's since 2017.

Could you afford to shoulder most of that, even all of that on your own, if needed?

GOV.

TATE REEVES: Well, I haven't heard the president or Secretary Noem or anyone involved in the process say that the federal government is not going to be included in the process.

I think what they're looking at is ways in which to streamline, ways in which to give freedom to states, ways in which to support, but to support without the tremendous amount of overhead that is currently being paid at the Emergency Management Agency in Washington, D.C. And I think you're going to see that this is really a theme across the board.

The other side of the aisle believes in centralized decision-making.

The Democrats believe that the best decisions are made in Washington, D.C., whereas I believe that best decisions are made by individuals.

And so to give more power to the states, more powers to individuals, certainly, I think you're going to continue to see federal support.

The Congress is going to demand that, as well they should.

And if we can find a better, more efficient way to operate, then that's what we ought to be looking to do.

The reality is, we have $36 trillion in debt in this country.

Doing things exactly the same way that they have always been done, honestly, it's not an option because it's going to destroy our country if we don't get control of our national debt.

AMNA NAWAZ: That is Republican Governor from the state of Mississippi Tate Reeves joining us tonight.

Governor Reeves, sir, thank you for your time.

We appreciate it.

GOV.

TATE REEVES: Always great to be on.

Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: The Trump administration's fight with Harvard University isn't letting up.

In recent weeks, the White House has moved to strip more than $2 billion in federal research grants, block international student enrollment, and suspend student visa applications.

As tensions rise, some at Harvard are speaking out, among them, renowned professor and cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, whose New York Times op-ed is titled "Harvard Derangement Syndrome."

I spoke with him yesterday.

Steven Pinker, welcome to the "News Hour."

STEVEN PINKER, Harvard University: Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: You have described many of Harvard's critics as having what you call Harvard derangement syndrome, this tendency to see only flaws in the institution, while ignoring its many strengths and contributions.

Explain what you mean by that and how you distinguish legitimate criticism from what you see as irrational hostility.

STEVEN PINKER: Yes, so Harvard does have some problems.

I co-founded the Council on Academic Freedom at Harvard to deal with them.

There have been some cancellations of faculty for saying politically sensitive things, leading to outrage mobs.

There is a political skew of the faculty, with probably not enough conservative voices.

There have been protests that have crossed the line from expression of opinion to intimidation and silencing.

On the other hand, Harvard is a really big place.

There are 24,000 students, 12 schools, three campuses, 2,700 professors.

And if there's an incident here or there, it can go viral and it can make people think that Harvard is nothing but cancellations or nothing but intrusive demonstrations, when, in fact, most of what happens at Harvard are students learning, professors doing research, people publishing their findings, including many politically incorrect findings.

The fact that every once in a while something catches the attention of someone and there's a mob doesn't mean that Harvard lives under a regime where no one can publish anything but a left-wing opinion.

Far from it.

GEOFF BENNETT: With the administration freezing what is now more than $2 billion in federal funding to Harvard, what potential long-term effects do you foresee on scientific innovation and research, not just at Harvard, but across the country?

STEVEN PINKER: Well, the singling out of Harvard for zeroing out of all support of science is part of a massive cutting of funds across the board in all universities.

Harvard went to zero.

Other universities, it may have gone to 50 percent or less, but that's still a lot, probably even less than 50 percent.

And it means that the scientific innovations that have led to treatments for cancer or heart disease, for the search for some kind of diagnosis and treatment of Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, of energy technologies, of hack-proof computer networks, of wound care, of prosthetics for people with paralysis, I could go on and on, all of these will be slowed down or sent to other countries, including China.

GEOFF BENNETT: Should universities like Harvard have anticipated the risks of political strings attached to billions of dollars worth of federal funding?

Is this current crisis, at least in part, a failure of imagination about what could happen when a populist administration turns against institutions it sees as elitist or pushing an agenda?

STEVEN PINKER: Well, this is an extraordinary administration.

It's not just populist.

We had a populist administration from 2017 to 2021.

It was nothing like this.

This is out-and-out authoritarianism.

This is the executive branch trying to throttle civil society organizations that they see as a possible source of alternative analysis of criticism, of democratic dissent, which includes the media, as I don't have to tell you, as well as law firms, the judiciary, cultural institutions, anything that could serve as a voice for any opinion other than the one that keeps the government in power.

So it's not clear that Harvard could have anticipated it.

Harvard did have problems which it should have solved no matter what, even if it didn't anticipate being strangled by the federal government.

GEOFF BENNETT: There's also the matter of the Trump administration's move to revoke Harvard's ability to enroll international students, which a federal judge has blocked.

President Trump has framed this as a national security issue, describing international students as - - quote -- "people from areas of the world that are very radicalized.

We don't want them making trouble in our country."

At the same time, he says that Harvard should cap the number of international students it admits to create space for American students.

What does all of that suggest to you?

What does it reveal about the motivations behind this?

STEVEN PINKER: Yes, well, international students and international scholars, also threatened, are a massive source of strength to Harvard, partly because we can select from the best in the world, as well as the best in the United States, partly because people from other countries do have other perspectives.

Part of being an educated person is, you know what life is like and what ideas are circulating in other parts of the world.

And how better than to hear it from the mouths of people who actually come from those parts of the world?

And the idea that the foreign students are sources of radicalization and agitation is just out of touch with reality.

We have students from Netherlands, from Israel and from Macedonia and from Peru who are some of our most studious students because, unlike many Americans, who kind of take their good fortune for granted, they are so grateful to be allowed the chance to study here, that they're the ones that show up at my office hours and volunteer to work on research projects.

And they're by no means the radical students who are the -- causing the disruptive demonstrations.

GEOFF BENNETT: As you have said, and as you noted in your Times piece, you have not been shy about calling out and criticizing Harvard when you feel it's necessary.

There are those who ask, though, where was this concern from Harvard and peer institutions when it implemented policies that arguably discriminated against Asian American applicants and when it implemented politically charged DEI mandates?

Is this selective outrage now that the criticism is coming from the political right?

STEVEN PINKER: Well, it's -- I think those are reforms that Harvard should have made.

And the thing is that every institution needs reforms, because times change, people point out problems that crept up gradually and at some point have to be dealt with.

But what the administration is doing right now is -- as I put it, somewhat melodramatically, is cutting the carotid and watching Harvard bleed out.

It's just an all-out assault by every means that the executive can think of, completely out of proportion to the particular problems, which indeed call for particular solutions, not for strangling the whole university.

GEOFF BENNETT: Does the moment require more than a legal fight?

I mean, if you make the argument that this threatens the enlightenment values that you hold dear, open inquiry, academic autonomy, pluralism, that there should be a moral argument in the public square beyond just the legal fight?

STEVEN PINKER: Yes, I absolutely think there should be.

In fact, one of the ways that universities have gotten themselves into this pickle is that they haven't really (AUDIO GAP) universities.

They contribute to society, in addition to practical applications like cures.

But why is it a good idea for people to be educated?

Why is it a good idea for their -- for knowledge to increase?

The universities, I think, too often have just tried to placate their students, to make bad publicity go away.

And that has backfired, because they haven't been able to actually articulate good reasons why some protests should be shut down, why academic freedom should be protected.

And if someone articulates a conservative opinion, they shouldn't be forced to grovel in a university.

Universities should be better at saying we are all better off when there is a marketplace of ideas, when there are institutions that can operate free from government control, when there are means of enhancing our knowledge, expanding our knowledge, and conveying it to the next generation.

We are all better off.

GEOFF BENNETT: Steven Pinker, thank you for your time and for your perspectives this evening.

We appreciate it.

STEVEN PINKER: Thank you.

AMNA NAWAZ: Lawmakers have been in their home districts this week answering tough questions about legislation making its way through Congress and about the Trump administration.

Lisa Desjardins reports on the fired-up constituents they heard from at town halls.

MAN: We answer to the America people.

WOMAN: We are standing up in the Congress.

MAN: My opportunity to listen and learn is tonight.

LISA DESJARDINS: For lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, heat at home about President Trump's agenda and Democrats' strategy.

REP. ASHLEY HINSON (R-IA): I was also proud to vote for President Trump's one big, beautiful bill last week.

(BOOING) REP. ASHLEY HINSON: This is a generational investment.

This is a general investment.

This is your time.

(BOOING) LISA DESJARDINS: Iowa Republican Ashley Hinson, a rising star in Congress, stood her ground on the Republican tax cut and spending cut bill that just passed the House.

REP. ASHLEY HINSON: This bill is about securing our borders.

This bill is about providing continued tax relief for working Americans and returning our country to prosperity.

(SHOUTING) SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): When does it end?

WOMAN: When you do your job!

LISA DESJARDINS: Across Iowa, Republican Senator Joni Ernst saw frustration about that bill firsthand this morning, including concerns over how the plan now heading to the Senate handles Medicaid, leading to this response.

SEN. JONI ERNST: When you are arguing about illegals that are receiving Medicaid benefits, 1.4 million, they're not.

They are not eligible, so they will be coming off.

WOMAN: People will die!

SEN. JONI ERNST: People are not -- well, we all are going to die, for heaven's sakes.

(SHOUTING) MAN: Congressman Mike Flood.

REP. MIKE FLOOD (R-NE): Thank you very much, Mary.

LISA DESJARDINS: Over in Seward, Nebraska, Republican Congressman Mike Flood also faced some angry constituents.

MAN: You either lied to us or you have been bullied into voting against our health care in favor of giving $5 trillion in tax breaks to billionaires.

(CHEERING) LISA DESJARDINS: Flood admitted to not reading the entire bill before voting yes.

After that came shouts of fascist.

REP. MIKE FLOOD: I get that you get an applause line when you call me a fascist, but I'm not.

LISA DESJARDINS: Meanwhile, Democrats face their own challenges at home.

MAN: As of today, the national Democrats still don't get their acts together to fight for the people.

LISA DESJARDINS: At a town hall in Portland, Oregon... WOMAN: What are you doing to make up for this shameful vote, protect immigrants and protect due process?

LISA DESJARDINS: ... Congresswoman Janelle Bynum was asked about her vote for the Laken Riley Act, which requires detention for undocumented migrants charged with burglary and other crimes.

REP. JANELLE BYNUM (D-OR): It is really important for us to have a nation of laws, and it is also very important for us to have due process.

LISA DESJARDINS: At a town hall in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar heard from a voter who sees Democrats as too weak.

MAN: Democrats are so afraid of actually fighting for the people.

Can you tell me what are you going to do to hold the Democratic Party leadership accountable?

REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): I don't think I have ever been accused of not holding the (AUDIO GAP) accountable, so I will continue to do that.

LISA DESJARDINS: And where town halls happen, voters continue to hold their lawmakers accountable.

For the "PBS News Hour," I'm Lisa Desjardins.

AMNA NAWAZ: Well, here to discuss all the week's political news now is Brooks and Capehart.

That is New York Times columnist David Brooks, and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor of The Washington Post.

Great to see you both.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Amna.

AMNA NAWAZ: Let's jump in with the headline about Elon Musk we reported on earlier today.

Today was his last day as a special government employee.

We had that extraordinary press conference we reported on in the Oval Office.

And there are a lot of questions about what exactly he and his DOGE team were able to do and actually accomplish.

Jonathan, when you look at this, step back, this unprecedented chapter of a private, unelected billionaire who had all of this power in the executive office, what do you think the impact was?

What did he get done?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, he got a lot done, but it wasn't anything good.

I mean, I remember him running around the CPAC.

It was CPAC with the chain saw, but really he took a wrecking ball to the federal government, just whacked through agencies and departments, while at the same time scooping up all of our private data.

And so he leaves Washington after 130-so days, leaving behind just the wreckage of what his DOGE team has done.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, how do you look at it?

What's his legacy, if we know that yet?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I'm not sure it was wreckage.

There was wreckage if you're at NIH.

There are wreckage at certain agencies, but the guy only saved $65 billion out of a multitrillion-dollar budget.

So, as a budget matter, you would not say he had a big effect, but he did manage to destroy NIH and USAID.

And the USAID one is the one I haven't gotten over.

And so there's folks at Boston University who count, how many people have died because of what DOGE did at USAID?

And USAID was a very ill-managed organization.

That's true.

But according to the Boston University folks, so far, 55,000 adults have died of AIDS in the four months since Trump was elected, 6,000 children are dead because of what DOGE did.

That's just PEPFAR, the HIV.

You add them all up, that's 300,000 dead, and we're four months in.

Now, you add, accumulate that over four years, the number of dead grows very high.

There are mass murderers in the world, Pol Pot, Mao Tse-Tung, Stalin.

We don't have anybody on the list from America.

And I don't think it's the same as committing the kind of genocide they did.

But by taking away that agency and being at least semi-responsible for the deaths of probably by the end of this hundreds of thousands of millions of people, that's Elon Musk's legacy.

And the people who work at Tesla and SpaceX may want to think about that.

AMNA NAWAZ: And those are real lives, it's worth pointing out, every single one of them lost.

What about this, what we saw in Lisa's report there about the anger at town halls?

You will recall over the last few months, there was a lot of anger about the DOGE cuts directed at Elon Musk.

Jonathan, what do you take away from what Lisa was reporting on now in terms of how people are showing up and what they're concerned about?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: They're still angry.

First, it was DOGE.

Now it's the big, beautiful bill.

And you just put them all together, because I think, for the American people, it's all part of the same messy, ugly stew.

And, on the one hand, the Republicans are facing anger from their constituents, one, because they won't show up for town halls anymore.

And then Democrats are facing not as much anger.

They're facing frustration from their constituents, because they look at their Democratic elected leaders and say, we sent you there, do something.

And we at this table know there is only so much that Democrats can do because they are not in the majority, not in the House, not in the Senate, certainly not in the White House.

So all they have is the ability to slow things down if they're in the Senate, go to their Republican colleagues' districts if they're in the House, and to just speak out loudly -- as loudly as they can.

But that's as far as it goes.

But the anger among the electorate is -- it's still there, it's palpable, and, as time goes on, it's going to become more and more bipartisan.

AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of that?

You agree?

DAVID BROOKS: I don't think it's bipartisan yet.

It may become that.

Even if you go to Montana, a red state, 40 percent of the state is Democrats.

And when I see the town hall videos that I have seen, it looks like Democrats talking and being really angry, which they should be.

And they should do resistance and they should show up at town hall meetings and they should make themselves heard.

But it's not the same as Republicans beginning to flake off.

We just don't see that in the numbers.

But what's going to happen?

To me, it's not even anything that's happened so far.

Donald Trump is increasing the national debt if his big, better bill, whatever that thing's called, goes through, by $6 trillion.

How inflationary will that be to dump that much money into the money supply?

At the same time, tariffs are going up.

Steel tariffs were just raised again today, raising the cost of anything made out of steel and anything made out of children's toys.

And so the Republican anger will come, if it comes, when those big effects hit the economy like a wrecking ball, to use Jonathan's word?

(LAUGHTER) AMNA NAWAZ: Wrecking balls here tonight.

DAVID BROOKS: And so that's when we will begin to see some real Republican anger.

AMNA NAWAZ: I want to get both of your takes too on the other big headline from this week, which was a flurry of pardons we saw from President Trump, really running the gamut from reality TV stars, to rappers, to former politicians, to commuting the sentence of a notorious former Chicago gang leader.

Jonathan, kick us off.

When you look at this, what do you make of it?

What's the common thread tying these together?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Seems to me, the common thread is, the person who got the pardon or the commutation or whatever it is they got from the president, it's either they said something nice about him or someone he knows said something to him about the person.

Maybe he or his family benefited financially through some -- one of the myriad ways folks can give some benefit to the president.

I think that is the common line.

This is not about -- so much about loyalty.

Maybe with the reality TV stars, it's about liking the president.

But we know there is no -- loyalty is not a two-way street with this president.

So it's not about loyalty.

It's about fealty.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, there's this.

There's also Mr. Trump saying, messaging that he might look at pardoning the men who were convicted of trying to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

How do you look at this?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, first to praise what he did.

He did pardon NBA YoungBoy.

For the few "News Hour" viewers who don't know who NBA YoungBoy... (LAUGHTER) DAVID BROOKS: ... he's a hip-hop artist who drifts into the gangsta style.

AMNA NAWAZ: Goodness, David... (CROSSTALK) DAVID BROOKS: I was cheering.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Go on, David.

DAVID BROOKS: But all the rest, they're sleazeballs.

I mean, you look at it.

It's fraud.

It's corruption.

It's bribery.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

DAVID BROOKS: It's making old people suffer so you can invest in a yacht.

It's just disgraceful things.

And the pardon authority is supposed to be for people who are near the end of their terms, who have repented, who have built new lives.

And Trump is oblivious to that.

It's not only he disagrees.

I convinced he's oblivious and he just doesn't think in those terms.

And he thinks, are these people nasty to my enemies?

And are these people likely to show up at my parties?

And if you make those two categories, then nasty to my enemies, free them.

And I once -- I have talked about this on the show -- got to go to a Donald Trump party, and it was not Mother Teresa and the saints.

It was every third bit New York semi-gangster.

And that was his circle.

And it's still a bit of a circle.

And he's pardoning his friends.

But it is an erosion of the norms of what standard -- what constitute good behavior, but even criminal behavior.

AMNA NAWAZ: Meanwhile, overseas, I want to ask you about what we saw this week with continuing Russia's really intensifying attacks on Ukraine.

And we saw Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in Europe trying to shore up support.

Meanwhile, we saw President Trump, who had promised once upon a time to end the war on day one really lashing out at Russian President Vladimir Putin online in multiple posts, saying Putin has gone absolutely crazy, saying he's playing with fire.

Jonathan, he used to hold up their relationship as a way that he would have leverage to bring Putin to the negotiating table.

What's happening here right now?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: He got played.

I mean, honestly, he thought that he was going to end -- no one thought he was going to end this war on day one, except him.

And he thought he had some special relationship.

Maybe he did.

But then, once he got into the White House, he has discovered that the Russian president has his own interests in his own goals.

And he's been making it clear since January 20 that he's going to keep pushing toward -- meaning Putin, pushing towards those goals.

So the president can be -- President Trump can be as frustrated as he wants to be, but he only has himself to blame.

He has not been serious at all about bringing a just conclusion to Russia's war on Ukraine.

AMNA NAWAZ: David, we're seeing some senators on the Republican side call on him to sanction Putin, to take a tougher stance.

Will he?

DAVID BROOKS: It's -- I don't know.

He - - for a guy who understands leverage, he's played his leverage very badly.

And so Vladimir Putin wants to win this war.

And if Donald Trump makes it easier for Vladimir Putin to win this war, then Vladimir Putin is not going to sue for peace.

That's -- you don't have to be Henry Kissinger to understand that.

And so he's done this, and then occasionally, even on January 22, I think, he's shown some anger at Putin and made threats.

Did he follow through on those threats?

Absolutely not.

And so he can issue a tweet or a social -- TRUTH Social, whatever it is, but is he actually going to show up and actually punish Putin in a way that he will feel the hurt?

I really not sure he's going to do that.

David Ignatius, Jonathan's colleague at The Post, had a very good column on how Putin has played him.

And one of the ways Putin has played him is that he's gotten Steve Witkoff, our special envoy to the Middle East and Russia, super locked into this Russia's sovereign wealth fund.

And so suddenly there's all this money at his feet.

And that's the kind of thing that talks in the Trump White House.

So will he sanction Russia?

We will believe it when we see it.

AMNA NAWAZ: We will believe it when we see it.

David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, always great to see you both.

Thank you.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Amna.

GEOFF BENNETT: Author James Patterson is a household name to many, having written more than 200 books and selling over 450 million copies worldwide.

His characters are well-known too, like the homicide detective and forensic psychologist Alex Cross.

Patterson has earned the title of the world's bestselling author, but there's one role he cherishes far more, dad.

As Father's Day approaches, he's turning the page from thrillers to something more personal.

In his latest release, "The #1 Dad Book," he offers a heartfelt reflection on fatherhood and what it truly means to him.

I recently sat down with James Patterson to talk about the journey, from growing up with a distant, reserved father to becoming the proud hands-on dad to his son, Jack.

James Patterson, welcome back to the "News Hour."

JAMES PATTERSON, Author, "The #1 Dad Book": Thank you.

GEOFF BENNETT: You have said that this book may be your most important book, the most important book you have ever written by far.

JAMES PATTERSON: Yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: Why is that?

JAMES PATTERSON: Well, it is.

It is.

Let me start here.

My only memory of hugging my father was on his deathbed.

And he apologized to me, and he cried, which he never did.

And I told him that he was a great dad.

But the way a lot of fathers were in that period, they -- hugging was not a thing.

And somewhere along the way, I was at a friend's house.

He's a teacher and my -- his wife were a teacher.

We were having dinner.

And their two boys, both football players, high school football players.

And after dinner, they're walking out the door.

And my friend said: "Come back, come back, come back.

And they had to give him a hug."

And that became -- that hugging thing became a model for me.

And our son, Jack, every time we see him, it's hugs.

And growing up, it was hugs, hugs, hugs.

What this is about, and the title is how to be the best dad you can be in one hour.

And the reason for that is that, for a lot of guys, they will not read the 400-page book.

They just won't.

So this is very practical about it.

And how many things can you do -- one hour, you will be a better tennis player.

This is where this thing gets serious and why it's important.

There are so many guys out there that are lost and overwhelmed, and they're no longer the breadwinners or whatever the heck it is.

And this will help them.

It will help.

Anybody who reads this thing, you will become a better dad, not a perfect dad, just better.

GEOFF BENNETT: How did your own experience with your father influence the kind of dad that you wanted to be?

JAMES PATTERSON: Well, it certainly made me more conscious of things like being able to say "I love you," which I don't -- I never heard my father say that to any of us or to my mother, things like -- and that's what the book is about.

It's just all these things like listening, huge, dads who listen, being able to say I was wrong, just in case it ever happens.

(LAUGHTER) JAMES PATTERSON: Changing diapers, dirty diapers.

Embrace the poop.

And the book deals with being a father at different stages, sometimes in terms of just being a new father, sometimes in being a stepfather, grandfathers.

There's a chapter on grandfathers and how -- grandparents in general, how important that is.

But it tries -- and part of it is, look, if this little thing on hugging doesn't work for you, go to the next page.

The point is that, at the end of this hour, you will have picked up a couple of things that are going to make you a better dad.

And when you look back on life, chances are you're going to realize, maybe too late, that the most important thing you ever did was raising your kids.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, how did you do that?

How did you balance being one of the world's most prolific writers?

JAMES PATTERSON: And talented.

(LAUGHTER) GEOFF BENNETT: Talented.

Talented and prolific.

JAMES PATTERSON: Yes, yes, yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: How did you balance that with being present for your family?

JAMES PATTERSON: Well, that's an interesting thing.

Present is -- and I think it's an important word.

People are always saying, well, what's the most important thing here?

I was around all the time because I write at home, and Jack was there, et cetera, et cetera.

But I wasn't always present when I was present.

You know what I mean?

Especially when they're 6, 7 -- 7, you're not necessarily into there, whatever they're talking about, but to be present, to -- really to listen to them, to whatever they're doing, to have them listen to you.

To really be present, I think is really a key thing and really, really useful.

GEOFF BENNETT: You collaborated with your son a book some years ago.

JAMES PATTERSON: Yes.

Yes.

GEOFF BENNETT: How did that strengthen your bond or test it?

JAMES PATTERSON: No, no, no.

I have never had a collaboration that hasn't been good, all of them.

And people always go, oh, wasn't it hard?

No.

I have collaborated with President Clinton now three times.

It's been a pleasure.

He's a good friend of mine.

Dolly Parton is a really good friend.

I just did, finished one with Viola Davis.

Great.

It's a novel, and I think a really, really good novel.

I'm going to collaborate with MrBeast.

GEOFF BENNETT: I read about that.

Yes.

JAMES PATTERSON: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

So that's a -- yes, and that's been a cool and interesting - - and he's an interesting person.

And then the thing with MrBeast is, we both love to tell stories.

He loves it to make the videos.

I love writing books like "#1 Dad" or Alex Cross.

He loves it.

And we both like to give stuff away.

He gives away a lot of stuff.

I give away a lot of stuff.

GEOFF BENNETT: In the book, you encourage men to seek out male friends... who talk about fatherhood, rather than sports and whatever.

JAMES PATTERSON: Or work friends, honestly, but... GEOFF BENNETT: Right.

Yes.

Why is that important?

JAMES PATTERSON: Because they don't do it.

All of this stuff, why is it important?

It comes down to a lot of this is blocking and tackling.

Yes, but you're not blocking, you're not tackling.

That's why it's important.

And this is -- and what this book is, is, for one hour, just let's talk about stuff.

And I try to make it humorous.

And I say, I don't have all the answers, I just have a lot of thoughts for you to think about, because guys, when they go out, for whatever reason, because they're guys, they will talk about sports, they will talk about cars, they will talk about work.

They won't talk much about their kids or their partners.

GEOFF BENNETT: There are several audiences for a book like this, new fathers, obviously.

What's a veteran dad get when he picks up this book?

JAMES PATTERSON: Same thing.

I mean, there's a lot of stuff here in terms of listening, talking to your kids, telling your kids, your older kids, your story, your values.

What do you stand for?

Tell them.

Don't be afraid to tell them.

And listen to them.

That's -- I mean, it's a key, key thing, and staying in touch.

GEOFF BENNETT: James Patterson.

The book is "The #1 Dad Book: Be the Best Dad You Can Be in 1 Hour."

Thanks so much for being here.

JAMES PATTERSON: And it is the most important book I have ever done.

GEOFF BENNETT: Absolutely.

JAMES PATTERSON: Alex Cross is cool, but this is important.

It's useful.

GEOFF BENNETT: Terrific.

And there is a lot more online, including the latest episode of our digital program, "PBS News Weekly," which looks at the changing health guidance in this country and what it could mean for you.

That is on our YouTube page.

AMNA NAWAZ: Be sure to watch "Washington Week With The Atlantic" tonight on PBS.

Jeffrey Goldberg and his panel discuss the ways President Trump is making money off his time at the White House.

GEOFF BENNETT: And tomorrow, on "PBS News Weekend," how lawmakers are making it harder for citizens to place proposed initiatives on state ballots.

And that is the "News Hour" for tonight.

I'm Geoff Bennett.

AMNA NAWAZ: And I'm Amna Nawaz.

On behalf of the entire "News Hour" team, thank you for joining us and have a great weekend.