PBS News Hour

GEOFF BENNETT: It was a week that saw Donald Trump become the first former American president to be convicted of a felony.

We turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart.

That's New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, associate editor for The Washington Post.

Thank you so much for being here.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Geoff.

GEOFF BENNETT: So I'd like to begin by asking you both to reflect on the significance of this moment, a former and potentially future president found guilty on all 34 counts in his criminal hush money trial, who, upon his sentencing on July 11, will officially become a convicted felon under New York state law.

Jonathan, you have the first word tonight.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, yesterday was a surprising day just because, at one moment, we're told the judge is going to let the jury go at 4:30, and then, the next minute, we have a verdict.

Yesterday was a very solemn day.

Whether you like the guy or not, the idea, the fact that a former president of the United States was found guilty on all counts unanimously by a jury of his peers, and that same person is the presumptive nominee for president of the Republican Party,it just - - just for the office, it was solemn.

I think, for where we are as a country, it was a solemn day, because, in the before times, he would no longer be the candidate, that another more upright, more reflective of the party and the country would become the nominee.

And I know he's perfectly reflective of the party as it is now, but I'm talking about the before time.

And so I was elated because he's being held accountable.

But at the same time, I'm a little crestfallen because of what it says about where the country is right now.

GEOFF BENNETT: Somber and solemn.

How does it strike you?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I will go back to Jonathan's phrase, the before times.

DAVID BROOKS: In the before times, I was working at National Review, The Wall Street Journal editorial page, The Weekly Standard, a lot of conservative places, and there were pillars of conservatism.

The first is moral character, that character's destiny, and if there's -- if private virtue falls apart, the public order collapses.

And we shouldn't forget the fact this case was about a president, a former president, paying hush money to a porn star.

I mean, in what world do we enter that?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Right.

DAVID BROOKS: The second is institutions and the power of institutions to safeguard society and hold off barbarism.

And there was a moment that some of the people who were in the courtroom described when the jury asked the judge to read back some of the technical fineries of the indictment and of how they should think about the law.

And, apparently it was very dry and technocratic language.

And yet the members of the jury looked at the judge with a rapt reverence.

And I have always found in juries that juries take their responsibilities very seriously.

And so these are character institutions.

And Donald Trump is, if nothing else, a transgressor.

And if he wins in the fall, the attack on the institutions won't only be to the justice system.

It'll be to the Defense Department.

It'll be to the attorney general's office.

It'll be a comprehensive assault on American institutions.

And that's sort of what's at stake.

Can those institutions hold?

And, in my view, yesterday, they did.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, as Lisa Desjardins reported earlier in this broadcast, Donald Trump addressed reporters this morning.

He spoke for more than 30 minutes, firing off grievances.

He attacked the judge, the justice system, really tried to portray himself as a political martyr.

This is a theme that's been central to his 2024 campaign.

And, Jonathan, it would appear that it's an effective way to rally his supporters, because the Trump campaign says, in less than 24 hours since that verdict came down, they raised $34.8 million.

That's half the entire amount they raised in all of April.

How is this going to play, not just with his base, but with independent voters, with those soft Trump supporters who really potentially could decide this election?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, they could, but this is one of those time will tell moments.

I mean, we're just 24 hours from having this guilty verdict.

So we don't know how independents are going to respond.

We don't know how those folks on the periphery of the Republican Party who might not like him and what he stands for, but could potentially vote for him.

But bully for them, $34.8 million, great.

But I -- what's he going to spend that money on?

Who are these people he's getting this money from?

But the other thing that is most -- I find fascinating about this, and I forgot to mention this in my first answer, I can't believe Nixon, President Nixon, Richard Nixon had something that Donald Trump does not have.

And that's a sense of shame.

Richard Nixon had enough sense of shame that he resigned the office, rather than be impeached, because the stain of it -- he did not want the stain of impeachment.

And yet Donald Trump has been impeached twice and is running for president again basically to keep himself, he hopes, out of prison, given the other cases that are coming down the road.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, David, picking up on that point, what does all of this reveal about Donald Trump, the space he occupies in American life, and the degree to which he has really shifted the center of our politics?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, he tells a story.

The story is, they're out to get you and the system is fundamentally broken.

And that's a story a lot of people agree with, and a lot of people think was vindicated yesterday.

I was very struck by my friends in the Republican Party, some of them Trump supporters, some more Nikki Haley types, I was struck by how vociferous their reaction was.

A lot of them saw this as the equivalent of January 6, that this was the day the justice system was perverted to launch a political attack and the fundamental institutions of society are under threat.

And so they are way more fired up than I anticipated.

And these are people from Susan Collins, who's a moderate Republican from Maine, over to the right.

The second thing is, the political effect of this is I suspect it'll be a little marginal.

The people who are supporting him are going to support him.

They have discounted who he is.

And they buy the basic, the system is out to get you.

And this revivifies for that for them.

The people who are marginal -- and there are a significant number of people who tell pollsters, I will reconsider my vote if Donald Trump is convicted.

But those are not people who pay a lot of attention to politics.

They tend to be people who supported Biden in 2020 and now are shifting over to Trump.

So they're low-information, fickle voters, and we don't know how they will go.

I suspect they won't go very far.

I think the basic system of this story, the basic question of this election is, the system is broken.

We need this guy, no matter how big a jerk he is.

We need him to take it to the man.

And I suspect they will stick around for him.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, after Donald Trump's appearance this morning, President Biden delivered remarks from the White House focused mostly on the Middle East.

But he had this to say in response to what Donald Trump had said.

JOE BIDEN, President of the United States: They found Donald Trump guilty on all 34 felony counts.

Now he will be given the opportunity, as he should, to appeal that decision, just like everyone else has that opportunity.

That's how the American system of justice works.

And it's reckless, it's dangerous, it's irresponsible for anyone to say this was rigged just because they don't like the verdict.

GEOFF BENNETT: Jonathan, I was talking to a Democratic operative today not aligned with the Biden campaign, but who said this is the time that the Biden campaign should litigate the case against Donald Trump to effectively say, you might have concerns about inflation, you might have concerns about Biden's age, but are you really going to vote for a convicted felon?

Do you think that the campaign is doing enough?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Doing enough?

The verdict has only been out for 24 hours.

And I'm not -- I'm not yelling at you, Geoff.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I'm yelling at that Democratic operative you talked to and the legions who this person represents, because this is the thing.

This is what Democrats do.

They -- remember State of the Union.

Everyone was elated.

Now we're back to, oh, my God, what are they doing?

It's been less than -- it's been 24 hours.

Give it some time.

I thought the president's tone and what he had to say was perfect.

Why?

Because he was being the grownup in the room and in the nation, defending the justice system, and saying what is proper, right and fair.

There's plenty of time to litigate the case against Donald Trump.

He's going to give tons of fodder for it - - to give the campaign an opportunity to respond.

So, Democrats, just calm down.

GEOFF BENNETT: Well, our Laura Barron-Lopez reported yesterday that the campaign in many ways echoes Donald Trump's judgment, in that the ultimate decision will be made by the voters in November and that voters, by and large, will be voting on the issues, not necessarily on this case in particular.

How do you see it?

DAVID BROOKS: I do think that.

I like the fact that Biden sort of has been restrained, because this should not be Democrat versus Republican.

This should be justice system versus Trump.

That's what this day should be about.

But we -- Trump is not the only populist semi-authoritarian in the world.

We have had 20 years of this now.

And people all around the world have tried to figure out, how do we beat these guys?

And if you look at the global consensus, if you can get your mind outside of the American context, going low and calling them names, that just doesn't work.

Replicating his style, that just doesn't work.

And if you look at the people who have successfully beat back populists strong men in Poland and other places, they have gone substance.

They have gone, here are the issues, here's my program, here's that program, here's that program.

I'm not fighting about his little games.

I'm just offering you a bunch of programs that are in your family's interest.

And, that way -- that seems to be, to me, a smarter strategy to take on populists.

GEOFF BENNETT: Let's talk more about how top Republicans are viewing all of this, because House Speaker Mike Johnson was on FOX yesterday and suggested that the U.S. Supreme Court should step in.

Here's what he said.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I do believe this Supreme Court should step in, obviously.

This is totally unprecedented and it's dangerous to our system.

I mean, we have all discussed this before and you all talk about it all the time.

This is diminishing the American people's faith in our system of justice itself.

And to maintain a republic, you have to have that.

People have to believe that justice is fair, that there's equal justice under law.

They don't see that right now.

And I think that the justices on the court, I know many of them personally.

I think they're deeply concerned about that, as we are.

GEOFF BENNETT: That was Johnson on FOX News this morning, in fact.

And it's not just him.

Senate Majority Leader -- Senate Minority Leader, rather, Mitch McConnell, who has had a frosty relationship with Donald Trump, says, in his view, this case never should have been brought in the first place.

How do you view the ways in which Republicans are circling the wagon here, even when it comes to this felony conviction?

JONATHAN CAPEHART: I just - - I find it reprehensible.

And when it comes to Speaker Johnson, I just find what he says basically as dangerous as what Donald Trump said today during that press conference at Trump Tower.

Speaker Johnson is the second in line to the presidency.

He should be, if not silent on this, as responsible and measured, while disagreeing, as the president was today, President Biden was today, in talking about the case.

If anything gives me pause, it is the vociferous reaction of Republicans, particularly of Republicans who in the before times would be saying the exact opposite of what they're saying now.

GEOFF BENNETT: David, final word?

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I mean, I -- I think it's crazy.

Listen, I had some doubts about an elected Democrat prosecutor going after Donald Trump in New York.

Of course, anybody has doubts.

But you have got to take the jury system seriously.

And whether you like what Alvin Bragg did or not, he was -- Trump was convicted on 34 counts by a jury.

The jury is the core of our legal system.

And for Johnson to sort of wave the jury aside and say, I know better than the people who actually sat in the room and listened to the charges, that's -- that sounds like politics to me.

GEOFF BENNETT: David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, thank you both.

JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Geoff.