History with David Rubenstein

(theme music plays) RUBENSTEIN: I'm David Rubenstein and I'm pleased to be in conversation today with Ada Ferrer, who's a professor at New York University talking about her new book, "Cuba: An American History."

And I'm very pleased to be able to do this at the New York Historical Society and the Robert H. Smith Auditorium.

Welcome.

FERRER: Thank you, I'm looking forward to our conversation.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, let's try in the remaining time to go through 500 years... FERRER: Okay.

RUBENSTEIN: Of, uh, Cuban history.

So, uh, who quote "discovered Cuba?"

Was that Christopher Columbus?

FERRER: That was Christopher Columbus in 1492.

He landed on the Northeastern Coast and said it was the most beautiful land human eyes had ever seen.

It had a, an indigenous population.

The main group were called or are, have since been called Tainos.

And they were the people who, who Columbus met.

Um, they were...

It is estimated that between 80 and 95% of the indigenous population on the island perished as a result of the Spanish conquest.

RUBENSTEIN: So after Columbus discovered, uh, Cuba, did he go back and say to Queen Isabella, "And, uh, guess what?

I just covered some great place for you.

And now we're gonna do things that name places there after you."

What did he do?

FERRER: He was disappointed in Cuba because it didn't have much gold.

So he went to Hispaniola, which is the island that today has the Dominican Republic and Haiti.

And the first Spanish settlement was there.

He went back to the, back to Spain and asked for more money and more ships, and did another expedition and another and another.

So the...

So he was not the person to colonize or settle Cuba.

That happened later in 1511.

RUBENSTEIN: Who comes after Columbus and who is quote "colonizing or running, uh, Cuba?"

FERRER: Yeah.

Well, the, the Spanish are.

You know, they just, they start settling Cuban in 1511, or colonizing it.

They're gonna end up going to Mexico not much later by the end of that decade in '15, uh, '17 or '18.

And when that happens, the attention of both the Spanish crown, the Spanish government but also of the colonist in, in Cuba turned to Mexico, because in Mexico there's these huge native empires.

They're not yet dying and there's all this gold and silver.

So Cuba kind of becomes something of a backwater as people there leave and go to Mexico later to the, to the, to Peru and the Andes.

And so Cuba kind of languishes a little bit.

RUBENSTEIN: But its main, uh, economic product was what?

FERRER: Well, in this early period, really its main draw was its location.

So if you think of where Cuba is, it's at the intersection of the Caribbean Sea, the Gulf of Mexico, uh, the Atlantic Ocean.

Where Havana is on the Northern Coast of the island is where the, the Gulf Stream kind of gathers.

And what the Spanish did was use Havana as the meeting point for all the Spanish treasure fleets.

It became known as the key to of the Indies and everyone wanted it.

RUBENSTEIN: Let's fast forward through the 1500s, the 1600s, the 1700s, and the 1800s.

FERRER: Okay.

RUBENSTEIN: So, uh, towards the end of the, uh, 1800s, Spain is still in control of Cuba.

There is a, uh, effort to, of the indigenous people to free themselves from the Spanish control.

Is that right?

FERRER: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: And were there revolutionary efforts to kind of say to the Spanish, "Go home and we really wanna have our country back."

FERRER: Yes.

So throughout the 19th century there were attempts at various points, but the main one began in 1868.

Uh, it was begun by a slave holder who freed his slaves and said, "Join me, we will make Cuba independent."

And that was the first war.

It lasted ten years.

It failed.

The second war was called the, "Little War" that lasted one year and it failed.

Then there was a third war from 1895 to 1898.

And that war was fascinating because it occurred in a former slave society.

Most of the army was Black and it's... And the leaders of that movement espoused this idea that Cuba could be a new kind of nation that transcended race.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, in the United States, the late 1890s, we call something the Spanish-American War.

FERRER: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: So how did we get in the middle of that revolution that was going on?

FERRER: The Spanish-American War, 1898.

The Maine blew up in Havana Harbor.

RUBENSTEIN: What is the Maine?

FERRER: So, the Maine was an American, um, war ship that was in Havana Harbor protecting American property because there had been some attacks by Spanish citizens against US property in Havana.

And so it was sitting in the Harbor and then it blew up.

The Spanish and Cubans later would say the US did it on purpose to have a pretext to enter the war.

Um, the Americans said, "It was, it was mined by the Spanish."

And so, to this day nobody, nobody really knows.

But after the, the explosion of the Maine, the Americans declared war on Spain.

RUBENSTEIN: So the president of the United States is President McKinley.

FERRER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: He goes to Congress and he asks for declaration of war.

FERRER: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: Which he gets.

FERRER: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: What about Teddy Roosevelt?

Uh, what does he do?

He is an assistant secretary of the Navy and he decides to go and participate in the war?

FERRER: He's asked to, to round up some volunteers of, you know, so-called cowboys.

And those are of course, the famous Rough Riders.

And they go to Cuba and, and fight... RUBENSTEIN: And Who were the Rough Riders, were they... FERRER: They were, they were from all over the...

Some of them were immigrants.

Some of them were friends from Harvard.

There were a lot from the Southwest, uh, the, the people who were called Hispanos that were the former Spanish, uh, speaking residents of the Southwest.

And they joined the Rough Riders.

And the idea was that they had Spanish, they could help.

So some of them were, uh, with them.

So it was, it was... You know, they were immigrants, they were Jews.

It was all kinds of people except for African-Americans who went in separate regiments.

RUBENSTEIN: So what did the Rough Riders actually do?

What was, uh, the charge of San Juan Hill?

What, what, what was all that?

Was that publicity or was that really a real fight?

FERRER: No, it was a real fight.

But, you know, the, the Americans came into the war, into a war that had already been being fought for three years.

And the Cuban generals strongly believed that victory was almost theirs.

That the Spanish were controlling the cities, they couldn't get control of the countryside.

So basically the, the Cuban generals felt they were grateful for the assistance, but they think they could have also won the war without the Americans.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay, so the war is over.

Um, the Americans say, "Well, we helped you win and maybe we should stay here, and maybe we should help control if I own this country."

How did we resolve all that?

FERRER: The Americans don't leave.

They become a military government of occupation.

And so on, on, uh, January 1st, 1899 at noon, every Spanish flag on the island comes down and an American one is raised in its place and Cuba is ruled by an American governor.

First it was, uh, John Brook, then Leonard Wood, so there's a, a, a US government of occupation, um, in Cuba for about three and a half years.

And they determine when elections are called, they write budgets, et cetera, et cetera.

RUBENSTEIN: Well, in the peace agreement with Spain, uh, who was at the table negotiating it?

FERRER: Spain and the US and that... RUBENSTEIN: And where were the Cubans?

FERRER: They weren't there.

And that was something that the Cubans were, were so mad about.

I mean, imagine there's been a 30-year movement for independence.

It's produced, uh, a, a rebel army that's 50,000 strong.

It's got writers and ideologues and essays who promote Cuban independence.

RUBENSTEIN: But in the end, uh, the country was owned by the Cubans, but the Americans had some rights that were quite unique in terms of being able to come back in or controlling the country if there was invaders so forth.

What were the rights that the Americans had?

RUBENSTEIN: And, and what kind of economic control did the Americans have over Cuba?

FERRER: So the Americans left, uh, Cuba.

They, they ended the occupation on May 20th, 1902.

But they agreed to leave only after the Cubans accepted something called the Platt Amendment.

Um, so the Platt Amendment was written by, you know, a US Senator.

It was incorporated into the first Cuban constitution as an appendix.

And the Platt Amendment did several things.

For example, it set aside the land that would eventually become the Guantanamo Naval Base.

It forbid the Cuban government from incurring debt with a third government, from entering into a treaty with any government other than the US.

And most importantly, it gave the US the right of intervention.

RUBENSTEIN: So who was running the government day-to-day let's say in the '20s, the '30s, the '40s?

Is it a series of elected officials or are they generals who took over?

FERRER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: How was the government... Country really run?

FERRER: So, um, early they are elected officials.

And one of the things that happens is that because the Platt Amendment is in place, if you have an opposition party say that loses an election, and they're not happy with that result, all they have to do is create enough trouble that suddenly there will be calls for US intervention because the US has the right of intervention.

That was for the first three decades.

Then the Platt Amendment was, was repealed in 1934.

RUBENSTEIN: Who was general Batista, who was he?

FERRER: So, most Americans know Batista as the man who Fidel Castro deposed.

And he was, that's who he was.

But he had...

He got a start in, in Cuban politics much earlier than, than that.

So in 1933, there was a progressive revolution that, nationalized some US property.

It gave women the right to vote.

It repealed the Platt Amendment.

And Batista was a part of that, but he was not progressive.

Then what happened with that revolution is the Americans weren't happy with it.

And so they would not the revolutionary government.

And Batista says to the US ambassador, "What will it take for the US to recognize the government?"

And the American ambassador said, "A new government."

And so basically Batista deposed the progressive revolutionary government.

And that's how he got his start.

RUBENSTEIN: And, and what year was that?

FERRER: That was in 1933 and the, and 30, early 34.

RUBENSTEIN: So he began to run the government.

FERRER: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: But... FERRER: But through puppet presidents, as head of the army through puppet presidents.

And then in 1940, he was elected president in a legitimate fair election.

RUBENSTEIN: So during 1950s, there are a series of student led and other, um, I would say efforts to overthrow the Batista government.

Um, what was his reaction to it?

Did he have a strong-armed policy to, um, get rid of these students?

Or what did he do?

FERRER: In the '30s he had a strong-armed policy.

In the, in 1940 he was elected.

There was less of that.

He could only run for one term.

So he left office in 1944.

Spent a lot of time in West Palm Beach.

He returned to run for office, again, in the elections of 1952.

He was running a distant third.

And he knew there was no hope of winning.

And so in March of 1952, he returned to Cuba and staged a coup and basically took over the government in something like an hour and 17 minutes.

RUBENSTEIN: And what was the US government's reaction to that?

FERRER: The US government, uh, recognized his government.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

FERRER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: So Batista is running the government.. FERRER: Now as, without having been elected, right?

RUBENSTEIN: But there's protests repeatedly in the 1950s... FERRER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: That basically his government was corrupt or it was, um, uh, not doing appropriate things.

So did the student revolts get very far?

FERRER: Yeah, there were all kinds of revolts against them.

The student, the students had always been politically active.

They were important in the revolution of '33.

They were important in, in the revolution of the 1950s.

They tried to assassinate him at one point in 1957, uh, and actually made it into the presidential palace, but he was working in a third floor office no one knew about and he, he escaped.

RUBENSTEIN: Now, uh, who was Fidel Castro?

Where was he born and what was family background?

FERRER: Yeah, he was, he was born in Eastern Cuba.

His father was, um, a Spanish descent and was a landowner, uh, very well off.

His mother had been, uh, a domestic worker in his house, in his father's house.

And that's how they met and, and married.

RUBENSTEIN: What propels him all of a sudden to say, "I want to be a revolutionary and overthrow the government."

FERRER: Yeah, so he was actually... Before he was a revolutionary, he was just a, he was just a politician.

So, uh... RUBENSTEIN: He was a lawyer and a politician.

FERRER: A lawyer and a politician.

He was running for senate in 1952.

So when Batista staged the coup it, you know, it also ended his campaign for senate.

And he initially tried to sue Batista for, for the coup.

Uh, that didn't work.

And so then he organized a really crazy scheme to take over the army barracks in, in Eastern Cuban in Santiago, the second most important army barracks.

RUBENSTEIN: And I assume that effort was not successful.

FERRER: That effort was a, a total...

In terms of the, in terms of the military outcome, it was a total failure.

RUBENSTEIN: So he was arrested.

FERRER: He was arrested.

Not there, he was...

He escaped into the... You know, he escaped and then was found a day or two later.

RUBENSTEIN: But eventually he was tried.

FERRER: And he was tried.

And then... What, you know, so the, the attack on the barracks was a military failure that ended up being, uh, a public relations success for him.

So he, he, he was a... You know, he was, he was very charismatic.

And they try him and everyone shows up to see him.

And he's very dramatic.

And he holds his hands up and shows his handcuffs and says, "In what kind of civilized land is a man tried in handcuffs?"

And the judge orders the handcuffs.

RUBENSTEIN: This is during the trial?

FERRER: During the trial.

RUBENSTEIN: He had his handcuffs initially... FERRER: And he says, "You can't do that."

RUBENSTEIN: But despite all that, he is convicted.

FERRER: He's convicted.

RUBENSTEIN: And what is he sentenced to?

FERRER: He doesn't serve his whole sentence.

He only serves about two years of it or a little less.

RUBENSTEIN: But he does go to jail.

FERRER: He goes to jail.

RUBENSTEIN: And what does he do in jail?

Does he... FERRER: He reads.

He reads every waking moment.

So he reads Marx.

He reads a lot about, um, about FDR.

He reads Freud.

He reads Dostoevsky.

RUBENSTEIN: All right.

So Castro is freed.

And does he say, "Okay, I've learned my lesson.

I'm gonna go back and practice law."

Or what does he say he's gonna do?

FERRER: He's gonna lead the revolution.

And, uh, he goes to Mexico and begins training there for guerrilla warfare.

And that's where he meets Che Guevera, who's the Argentine doctor who would then join the Cuban revolution.

RUBENSTEIN: All right.

So he goes to Mexico.

And part of his plot is to come back with, on a boat and land in Cuba and then overthrow the government, I guess, more or less.

FERRER: Exactly.

Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, how did that plan go?

FERRER: Uh, it didn't go well initially.

So they end up having to go up into the mountains and the, the Batista's air force is over them and, you know, dropping bombs and shooting at them.

And so they all separate.

Um, and they end up with just, you know, I think about 20 men scattered in the mountains.

RUBENSTEIN: And it was said that he had been killed by the, uh... FERRER: Yes.

RUBENSTEIN: The government.

And, uh, so he's in the mountains kind of living hand to mouth a bit.

FERRER: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Got a couple people with him.

But how does he convince people he's still alive?

FERRER: Yeah, he realizes that, um, he's gonna have to get a really big voice to say he's alive.

And so he scored this interview, uh, with the New York Times journalist, Herbert Matthews.

RUBENSTEIN: So Herbert Matthews goes up into the mountains... FERRER: With a, yep.

RUBENSTEIN: Has some interviews with Castro.

Um, they're the first time anybody's had interviews... FERRER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: With him like this.

Comes down, writes up the story, and then it's printed in New York Times.

And do people believe it?

I, they think he made it up.

FERRER: Most people believe it.

I mean, Batista's government keep saying, "This is all... You know, this is all the imagination of this journalist."

But the next day, the New York Times prints a picture of Herbert Matthews and Fidel Castro seated next to each other.

So that lays to, to rest some doubts.

RUBENSTEIN: How does Castro get out of the mountains and come down and, and do what he did later to take over the government?

FERRER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Can you go through that scenario?

FERRER: Yeah, so it takes a while.

You know, it takes about, um, all of '50, well, all of '57 and '58.

Um, and basically what they...

They have this guerrilla army that keeps growing.

More people are coming to join them.

They're getting money from, from the cities, but also from abroad.

Uh, from Cuban exiles, um, who are not communist at all and they're supporting the, the revolution.

They start, as they, and they start taking over more territory.

And then in the territory they'd take over they, they, they put in place a revolutionary government.

They carry out a modest agrarian reform.

So they're, they're setting up a little state in the mountains and they're fighting.

There's also students and, and workers and others in, in the cities who are exploding bombs every night and who are engaging in sabotage.

So there's...

The revolution has different theaters that are kind of all... RUBENSTEIN: So it wasn't only Castro?

FERRER: It was not.

You know, in the beginning Castro was just one revolutionary among many.

RUBENSTEIN: But eventually he comes down from the mountains and eventually what, what does Batista decide to do?

FERRER: He leaves.

RUBENSTEIN: He just... FERRER: He knows, he knows it's over.

And one of the things that was key is that the Americans realized that there would be no peace with Batista in power.

And that's what the American diplomats who are in Cuba are reporting back to, um, to Washington.

And so in March of '58 the, the US, announces that it will stop sending weapons to Batista's army.

And that really demoralizes the army.

RUBENSTEIN: So how does Castro come down from the mountains?

And why is he selected?

Or is he selected...

Were the other people selected to lead the government and not him?

FERRER: Yeah well, one of the things that's interesting is that in the, in the revolutionary period there were people initially who, who were more popular at, than him, but a lot of them had been killed by then.

So the two other main young charismatic leaders were already dead by then.

So he comes down to the mountains.

There's a, there's a president who's a, a judge.

Uh, a progressive, you know, liberal judge.

There's a prime minister.

They all resigned.

Basically, you know, it's interesting 'cause Americans always think about Castro's communist revolution, right?

But nobody knew what it was gonna be in January of 1959.

RUBENSTEIN: All right, so he becomes prime minister in the new government, is that right?

FERRER: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: But then why does he resign as prime minister?

FERRER: Because, you know, this all feels so new.

And the question of communism is starting to come up.

Especially, he, he passes a...

There's an Agrarian Reform Law that's passed that confiscates some US, uh, some large land holdings.

That's in May of '59.

After that the, the accusations of communism, uh, increase.

And so some people in the government who were very anti-Batista and very revolutionary were not happy with the idea of the government becoming communist.

And so that starts to be what the struggle is about.

So Fidel Castro resigns.

People come out in the streets saying, "Fidel come back.

Prime minister you resign."

Then the prime minister resigns.

And eventually Castro comes back as we all know.

RUBENSTEIN: He comes back and when does he say, "Guess what?

I really am a communist."

FERRER: In late summer 1960 and early fall, you get, um, you get massive confiscations of US property.

And I think after that there really was no turning back.

And then he finally says that the revolutionist communist as the Bay of Pig's Invasion is unfolding.

RUBENSTEIN: Then, um, Eisenhower on his last day as he's president as reviewing a plan that the CIA has under which there's gonna be some infiltration, um, back in Cuba by former Cubans, but not necessarily an invasion.

FERRER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: An, an infiltration to kind of, um, maybe do something that might eventually change the government.

How does he get converted from that to an invasion under President Kennedy?

FERRER: Yeah, the, the plan first started in March of 1960 as a plan of covert action.

And as you said, it was infiltration.

There was no invasion planned initially.

Or no major invasion.

Uh, it starts to change even before Kennedy comes to power.

And it starts to change because the, the planners are worried that, that, that Castro's amassing too much power too quickly.

And that he's getting weapons from, from different places too quickly.

And that if they're going to depose them, it has to happen now.

And that the, an invasion they thought would be quicker and faster than trying to infiltrate and work on guerrilla war.

And it was... RUBENSTEIN: But, it was the CIA that largely developed a plan.

And the CIA basically convinces President Kennedy to go ahead.

FERRER: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Kennedy says, "I'm not gonna provide air cover.

Uh, go ahead and do it.

But I, I don't wanna have the air cover."

But do the people coming in from, where they're, they're leading the attack, do they know that Kennedy said there's no air cover?

FERRER: No.

'Cause the idea was that, that, that the, the US government would take out, would go and send planes ahead of time and then, uh, attack Cuban air bases and destroy the Cuban's ability to attack them.

RUBENSTEIN: So how many Cubans, uh, Cuban refugees, uh, come back and lead the Bay of Pigs?

FERRER: Um, about 1,400.

RUBENSTEIN: All right, it didn't work.

It was poorly conceived.

Um, Kennedy, uh, basically goes on TV and takes, uh, responsibility.

RUBENSTEIN: So let's go forward to the Cuban missile crisis.

Kennedy meets with Khrushchev in Vienna.

It's a disastrous meeting.

Khrushchev thinks that Kennedy's weak and not strong enough.

And he decides to take advantage of it.

So he decides to put nuclear weapons in to Cuba.

FERRER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Um, and when Castro's told about that does he say it's a good idea?

Or he says, "I'm not responsible for nuclear weapons.

I don't really want those."

FERRER: Oh, he thinks it's a great idea.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

FERRER: Yeah, I mean, 'cause both, both Khrushchev and Castro thought that, that another invasion was coming.

And that when another invasion came, there's no way it would be as badly planned as the first one.

RUBENSTEIN: So, Kennedy convenes a group of people in the, uh, the White House and his cabinet called the Ex-Com, the Executive Committee.

And they ultimately come up with a solution, which is to quarantine... FERRER: Yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Uh, future Soviet... FERRER: Mm-hmm.

RUBENSTEIN: Um, ships coming in with the nuclear parts, but also asking or telling Khrushchev he has to take the military, uh, nuclear weapons out.

FERRER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: So how did that happen?

FERRER: It was, um, an agreement to remove American missiles from Turkey.

So in exchange for that, uh, Khrushchev said he would take the missiles out of Cuba.

RUBENSTEIN: So was Khrushchev...

The Soviets had said, "You have, uh, weapons in, and missiles in Turkey.

We feel insecure about that."

FERRER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: So after that happened, uh, the relations between, uh, the United States and Cuba didn't get any better, right?

FERRER: Mm-mm.

RUBENSTEIN: So from, let's say 1962, all the way till his death, Castro basically was in control of the country.

How did he keep control for such a long period of time?

Did he have military, uh, people everywhere watching everybody or did he put people in jail?

Did he kill people?

How did he keep power for such a long period of time?

FERRER: So in the beginning, Castro was really popular.

There was a survey done initially and he had like 92% approval rating, right?

That had declined already by the time of the missile crisis.

But, but he still had a majority of, of Cuban, uh, people with him at that point.

And if anything, things like the Bay of Pigs rallied Cubans who had some doubts to his side because they saw the American invasion and said, "Wait, we don't wanna be invaded."

The relationship with the Soviet Union meant that there was a level of, of, of modest, very modest wellbeing.

Uh, and it's really...

There are moments...

There are, there are moments when there's public discontent that erupts.

One really important one is in 1980.

RUBENSTEIN: Yes, um, when President Carter was president, uh, uh, Castro opened the prisons and sent out, uh, about 125,000 people.

Not all from the prisons.

FERRER: Right.

RUBENSTEIN: But, uh, people had medical problems and other things.

Why did he do that?

Why did he release all those people?

FERRER: Yeah, that occurred just about a year after family visits had, had started.

And I think that's really, really important.

Uh, Cubans who'd left the island had never been allowed to go back.

And in 19...

In the late '70s, the, they, they were suddenly allowed to go back.

And they went back, you know, with pictures of nice cars and they brought a lot of gifts and money.

And it created a sense of expectation and also doubts about the government.

"Wait, the government has been telling us that these people who left are horrible, horrible people, but they're people just like us."

And so that created a lot of kind of desire to leave.

And in, um, 1980 in May, a group of people stormed the Peruvian embassy.

They stole a city bus and crashed through the gates, uh, asking for asylum.

And, Castro wanted them back from the, from the embassy.

The embassy said no.

And Castro said, "Whoever wants to leave, can leave."

And he opened the gates...

He removed security.

RUBENSTEIN: Right, right.

FERRER: And within like 48 hours or something, there were, there were thousands of people.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

FERRER: There were like 10,000 people ready to leave, but no one knew how to get rid of them.

RUBENSTEIN: So if you had had the chance to interview Fidel Castro and could ask him one question, what would that one question be?

FERRER: Hmm.

Uh, I'm not sure what question I would ask him.

But I was just in Miami visiting my 100-year-old father who has a sixth grade education but always liked to write, took to writing in life.

And I just went through, you know, all these papers.

And he has dozens and dozens of letters that he wrote to Fidel Castro, all of them unanswered, and I said, um, "What did you say to Fidel Castro in the letters?"

'Cause there were so many.

I hadn't read them yet.

And my father said, "Everybody makes mistakes."

And I thought that was just great.

RUBENSTEIN: Okay.

FERRER: Anyway.

RUBENSTEIN: So your question to Castro will be, is there anything you would've done differently?

Did you think he made a mistake?

FERRER: That, that is a great question, yeah.

RUBENSTEIN: Right.

Okay, look it's a really interesting discussion about, Cuba.

Thank you very much for this conversation.

FERRER: Thank you, thank you.

(music plays through credits)