Announcer:
The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production. You’re watching “Here & Now” 2024 election coverage.

Tammy Baldwin:
Wisconsin’s state motto is forward.

Frederica Freyberg:
Less than a month away from the election, Democratic incumbent Tammy Baldwin acknowledges it’s a tight race for U.S. Senate against her Republican challenger, Eric Hovde. But both candidates can still make appeals to voters in their first and only televised debate.
I’m Frederica Freyberg. Tonight on “Here & Now,” ahead of next week’s debate between the Wisconsin candidates for U.S. Senate, we get a preview of their backgrounds and platforms and a look at the blurred lines between political rhetoric and political violence. Then we report on one group frequently left out of the conversation about Medicaid expansion. And finally, the top issues for Wisconsin’s largest voting block: people over 50. It’s “Here & Now” for October 11.

Announcer:
Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

Frederica Freyberg:
Candidates for the U.S. Senate in Wisconsin square off in a statewide debate a week from tonight. Incumbent Democrat Tammy Baldwin and Republican Eric Hovde appear on the televised debate Friday, October 18 at 7 p.m. You can watch that here and then join right after for “Here & Now” for highlights and analysis. Tonight, reporter Steven Potter tells us about the candidates and where they stand.

Eric Hovde:
We need to put on the red, white and blue jersey. I love my country and come together as Americans. I believe in this country and what our Constitution stands for and what it’s provided the people of this country.

Tammy Baldwin:
And hey, Wisconsin, it’s really important to me that Wisconsin working families have somebody fighting for them and not just somebody in there fighting for the rich and powerful. State motto is forward.

Steven Potter:
The top two candidates for U.S. Senate were both born and raised in Madison, and both say that their primary reason for running is to help their fellow Wisconsinites and Americans. But that’s where the similarities end between Eric Hovde and Tammy Baldwin.

Tammy Baldwin:
I will be a senator for all of Wisconsin.

Steven Potter:
Baldwin, the Democrat, has spent more than three decades as an elected official. Previously rising through the ranks from city council to the state legislature and then to the U.S. House of Representatives. She says what she’s done and learned over those years is what qualifies her now for a third term in the U.S. Senate.

Tammy Baldwin:
The experience and the seniority matters. Oftentimes, people criticize about the years of experience, but I can tell you that it is a complicated process, and the relationships that I have across the party aisle have allowed me to do really big things for Wisconsin and for the nation.

Steven Potter:
Hovde, the Republican, says his decades of success as a real estate developer and a bank owner, as well as running a foundation to help children, gives him the insight to help lead the country in a new direction.

Eric Hovde:
I have spent my life in the real world. I’ve actually built apartment complexes around our state and do land development for single family housing. So I have a wealth of experiences that can come to apply to, you know, Washington, D.C.

Steven Potter:
Democrats currently have a razor thin majority in the U.S. Senate. The winner in Wisconsin could tip the balance. Given that there’s also a presidential race this year, the issues dominating the U.S. Senate race are driven by the top of the ticket, and those are: inflation and the economy, immigration and abortion. On inflation and the economy, Hovde says Democrats’ government spending is at fault.

Eric Hovde:
We’ve gone through one of the worst bouts of inflation. It was all self-created by the excessive spending. We’re bankrupting our country. So the first thing you have to do is pull down that spending back to pre-COVID levels. That’s the very first thing. And then you have to put a long glide path of trying to reduce spending and trying to get on top of this deficit spending.

Steven Potter:
Baldwin agrees that the pandemic is where inflation began but says that’s not what’s driving prices up today.

Tammy Baldwin:
We saw prices go up because there were supply chain disruptions, and we saw prices go up because there was a lot of demand and little supply. Now that that has rectified, it is corporate greed that is causing prices to stay high, even though their cost of production has gone down dramatically.

Steven Potter:
The candidates also have drastically different positions and plans for how to address immigration and the southern border.

Tammy Baldwin:
So the southern border, we need to restore order there. And there are clear things that need to happen, including more U.S. Border Patrol officers, fixing the system whereby people seek asylum and don’t have a case processed for years. It should be months, not years.

Eric Hovde:
We have to close our southern border. Whether that is with a wall with greater security, it’s going to take a multitude of different things. We have to change the laws to allow us to remove those people. But we also have to fix legal immigration because we do have a lot of good people that we want to come here to work in our farms, to work in our factories, or look at our health care system.

Steven Potter:
And lastly, the issue of abortion has emerged as a singular topic that’s driving many voters around the country and in Wisconsin to the polls.

Eric Hovde:
Life is a wonderful thing, and I agree that there should be exceptions for rape, incest, and the health of the mother. And I agree that early on in a woman’s pregnancy, she should have a right to choose.

Tammy Baldwin:
I am the leader in the fight to restore Roe v. Wade. It’s through a bill that I lead called the Women’s Health Protection Act. That bill would codify Roe v. Wade at the federal level, put it into our national laws.

Steven Potter:
Political scientists and pollsters around the state have noted how difficult it will be for Eric Hovde to beat Tammy Baldwin in November. The senator has strong name recognition and support not only in Democratic strongholds of Madison and Milwaukee, but also in some rural parts of the state.

Tammy Baldwin:
My way of approaching both the job as senator, as well as the campaign, is to try to travel everywhere I possibly can in the state of Wisconsin and meet people where they are, listen to their concerns and their aspirations, and have that inform the work that I do and the campaign that I run.

Steven Potter:
Still, Eric Hovde says his experience outside of politics makes him the better candidate, and he thinks he’s got a chance at winning.

Eric Hovde:
If you want this country to go in a better direction and have somebody who is doing it because he loves his country, he realizes the country is failing economically and we have to get people who understand our globalized, financialized economy today and who understands real life experiences.

Steven Potter:
For “Here & Now,” I’m Steven Potter.

Frederica Freyberg:
We’ve all heard the hateful political rhetoric. Much of it these days, directed at migrants coming over the southern U.S. border. Is it bluster, as some apologists would say, or dangerously tipping toward political violence? We turn to UW-Madison political scientist Nathan Kalmoe, author of the book “Radical American Partisanship: Mapping Violent Hostility” and thanks for being here.

Nathan Kalmoe:
Thanks so much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
So in your book, you discuss what you call moral disengagement that is vilifying out-groups, hyping the morality of in-groups, minimizing harms and righteous ends that justify aggressive means. Is that what’s happening here?

Nathan Kalmoe:
It is. Yeah. The language that we’re hearing that’s targeting migrants is dehumanizing. Dehumanization is a form of moral disengagement and what’s dangerous about dehumanizing rhetoric is that it creates excuses for people to harm groups that they dislike. And so we see this historically. We see this cross-nationally that marginalized group when they’re targeted with dehumanizing language, are more subject to various kinds of harms, including violence against the community.

Frederica Freyberg:
In your book, you say that hyper political polarization doesn’t diagnose the problem. It disguises it. What do you mean by that?

Nathan Kalmoe:
Yeah, Dr. Lilly Mason and I feel like the polarization framework that we often hear so much about is really inappropriate when it’s applied to these kinds of contexts, because the problem here isn’t that we’re divided. It’s what we’re divided over. And in particular, that one position in this case is, is a kind of racist hostility towards migrants, towards people of color more broadly. And that’s just not a one side versus the other side. It’s something that goes against some of the fundamental values of equality and freedom in our country. And so when we focus on polarization, it creates this false moral equivalence saying that, or at least implying that both sides should find some middle ground and really, we shouldn’t be compromising on matters that are about the equality and the humanity of other people.

Frederica Freyberg:
So we’ve all heard of the so-called replacement theory, whereby current minority populations will replace the majority white status holders in the U.S. Is this the genesis of potential violent hostility?

Nathan Kalmoe:
Yes. This false and racist conspiracy theory is quite dangerous because it creates a sense of existential threat in people who have more of an us versus them mentality and, and feel like diversity, instead of being a strength for our country, is a threat to them personally. And this kind of conspiracy theory pushes people towards more extreme actions. And again, it forms a kind of vilification that that justifies in their minds, that rationalizes harming these groups, including sometimes engaging in violent threats or violent actions, as we’re seeing in Ohio right now.

Frederica Freyberg:
What cues are there from history about how ordinary citizens can be swept up in this?

Nathan Kalmoe:
Yeah, this kind of thinking, these kinds of actions are unfortunately, historically common. This is the same kind of thinking and rhetoric that justified and perpetuated slavery and Jim Crow in the United States. It’s the same kind of thinking of white supremacy that justified ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, of excluding and discriminating against Catholic immigrants and Asian immigrants throughout our history. And so the, the danger is that on the one hand, it gets people to support policies of government that are really harmful and discriminatory against people who should be treated with humanity and equality. And it can also mobilize people, especially when they feel like they don’t have the kinds of outcomes that they want through the political system to turn to violence, and that violence can be perpetuated with or without the support of the broader government.

Frederica Freyberg:
In the current kind of political electoral scape, in terms of partisans, you say that partisans of both stripes have this kind of feeling of the other as evil?

Nathan Kalmoe:
Yeah. So in our public opinion surveys, we measured extreme hostility. We felt that that prior previous scholarship had not fully mapped the levels of extreme hostility. And so we asked about a number of forms of moral disengagement, including feeling like the other side is evil. Basically, what we found starting in 2017 was about 40% of Democrats and Republicans had that view of their political opponents. That number has risen, at least among Republicans, in the years since. Last year, our survey showed about 60% of Republicans were endorsing this view that Democrats are evil. Still, about 40 to 45% of Democrats were saying the same thing. I think that’s a worrisome level of political hostility. But I think it’s important to keep in mind the distinction between thinking of people as evil and thinking of actions and ideas as evil, and the distinction there is that while it’s probably inappropriate to see people as being wholly evil, they’re certainly actions, including racist violence that could fairly be characterized as evil and that should be condemned in pretty strong terms, if not evil.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. Very interesting. Nathan Kalmoe, thank you so much.

Nathan Kalmoe:
Thanks so much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
For years, the debate to expand Medicaid in Wisconsin has been shut down by Republicans refusing to consider it, even as a new report from the Wisconsin Policy Forum says it could save the state $1.7 billion. One population that Medicaid serves, but often feels left out of the conversation, are people with disabilities. Many of whom are pitted between earning a fair wage and keeping their Medicaid benefits. In a collaboration with Wisconsin Public Radio’s “America Amplified” project, “Here and Now’s” Aditi Debnath is reporting on questions voters are asking this election. This is the third story in that series.

Laura Paepke:
This is part of their day. This is part of their routine. They enjoy that paycheck at the end of every two weeks.

Aditi Debnath:
Laura Paepke runs a job skills building program for people with developmental disabilities.

Laura Paepke:
We are their day service provider. So if there are days that there is not work available, we’ll do some vocational workshops.

Aditi Debnath:
Paepke’s program called TTI Industries, is one of 49 employers in the state with a special certification known as 14(c). It allows her to pay workers with disabilities based on their productivity, even if that comes out to less than the state minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. That pay arrangement, however, doesn’t sit well with advocates like Beth Swedeen, executive director of the Wisconsin Board for People with Developmental Disabilities.

Beth Swedeen:
Our position is that people with disabilities should be working at similar jobs to other people based on their interests, and that they should get compensated at market rates.

Aditi Debnath:
Paying workers with disabilities less than the minimum wage has induced controversy across the country, causing 13 states to eliminate those kinds of private employers altogether.

Kristina Mueller:
So my brother’s name is Matthew, and he is 46 years old. He’s been at TTI Industries for at least 20 years.

Aditi Debnath:
Kristina Mueller lives with her brother Matthew, who enjoys his work at TTI. She says that even if he earned minimum wage, he wouldn’t be able to get ahead.

Kristina Mueller:
If he makes above a certain amount of money, his SSI benefits automatically get reduced and he then is also subject to losing his Medicaid benefits.

Aditi Debnath:
She’s found the debate over 14(c) employment programs for disabled workers to be frustrating.

Kristina Mueller:
Since everything has started with trying to eliminate the 14(c) certification, the managed care organizations putting more restrictions.

Aditi Debnath:
Managed care organizations are the decision makers for how Medicaid dollars are spent, which includes funding for TTI Industries. In 2014, federal regulations forced Wisconsin to increase the age requirement to participate in 14(c) programs from 18 to 25. This change was aimed at getting younger adults to seek standard jobs before turning to sheltered workshop employment.

Beth Swedeen:
Like any complex social problem, there’s no silver bullet solution.

Aditi Debnath:
Swedeen says Medicaid expansion could improve these programs.

Beth Swedeen:
That money could be invested back into wages, benefits and other supports.

Aditi Debnath:
This would eliminate one of Kristina Mueller’s main reasons for favoring subminimum wage work for her brother: Fear of losing his Medicaid benefits.

Kristina Mueller:
We should be fighting for no caps on their Social Security benefits, you know. For not having caps for their Medicaid benefits so they can get these community jobs and work and not worry about losing their benefits and having, you know, those cut or reduced because now they’re making too much money.

Beth Swedeen:
That’s not true. There’s a lot of benefits counseling out there that can help people understand how much they can earn and still retain their health insurance and other public benefits.

Aditi Debnath:
Medicaid expansion would also mean added supports for personal care and employment skills for people with disabilities, and not having to choose between fair wages and disability benefits.

Mary Swifka:
Noah’s not one for learning how to, you know, manage money or learn about cell phone etiquette or anything.

Aditi Debnath:
Mary Swifka is Noah’s mother. He has Down syndrome.

Mary Swifka:
The idea is to give him the independence that he deserves.

Aditi Debnath:
Swifka is an advocate for Medicaid expansion, but she feels people with disabilities are often left out of the conversation at the state level.

Mary Swifka:
What I’ve heard from state legislative leaders, they think that all Medicaid does is provide medical insurance for people who are lower income and frail elderly, but Medicaid does so much more than that. Medicaid dollars pay for Noah to be independent in his community. They pay for job coaching. Medicaid pays for people with disabilities who have significant medical conditions to have at home care.

Aditi Debnath:
Swedeen says that regular jobs are most valuable for people with developmental disabilities, both in wages and experiences, but that she recognizes the value in sheltered workshop programs and Medicaid expansion would give people that choice.

Beth Swedeen:
There’s still a place for some people who are older maybe, or have had worked or have gotten those vocational supports for many years where we’re not advocating the erasure of providers, but we are advocating that it’s important for people, whenever possible, to get their supports in the community and at a fair market wage.

Aditi Debnath:
Paepke says a statewide elimination of programs like TTI would be difficult for her clients.

Laura Paepke:
Community employment, vocational services, we have day activities, and that’s really what the clients — should be their choice to decide not, you know, a government entity making that choice.

Aditi Debnath:
Reporting from West Bend, I’m Aditi Debnath for “Here & Now.”

Frederica Freyberg:
A lot of attention is paid to the youth vote, especially will they or won’t they cast a ballot? But the senior vote is much more assured. And in Wisconsin, people over the age of 50 are the largest voting bloc. That’s according to AARP Wisconsin out with a recent election poll heading into November 5. Jim Flaherty of AARP Wisconsin joins us now. Thanks for being here.

Jim Flaherty:
Oh, thanks for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
So when we say that the senior vote in Wisconsin is more assured, what does your poll say about their enthusiasm to vote?

Jim Flaherty:
Well, our poll, which came out after the last presidential debate, so fresh in people’s minds, shows that those aged 50 and over are the most motivated demographic of any voters in Wisconsin. More than nine out of ten voters over age 50 were polled said that they are extremely motivated to vote in this election, which should be a wakeup call for candidates to say, “Hey, you got to start listening to what these 50 plus voters are saying.”

Frederica Freyberg:
So as with other polls, the candidates in the presidential and U.S. Senate race here are neck and neck. Apart from the horse race of it though, what issues are especially salient for people over 50?

Jim Flaherty:
Well, 77% of voters aged 50 and older are saying that candidates’ position on Social Security are very, very important to them. That’s followed by obviously Medicare, same, just about as high at 69%.
Helping people to remain living in their homes as long as possible. We call those family caregivers 63%. Cost of prescription drugs and their medications is still very much top of mind. Four out of five, so 79% of Wisconsin voters prefer a member of Congress who wants Medicare to continue to negotiate for lower drug prices. So, you know, these are pocketbook issues. You know, can I afford to pay for my monthly medications while also paying rent and food? A lot of people have to cut their pills in half just to be able to get by. There’s a lot of people struggling across Wisconsin, and it really is time for candidates to pay attention to that. If I may, for just a second, family caregivers, there’s about 600,000 of them in Wisconsin. These are folks who are raising their own families. They have their own jobs, and they’re helping out loved ones so that they can remain living in their own homes and communities as long as possible. We call these the unsung heroes of Wisconsin. They do things like helping loved ones with meal preparation and medication management, bill paying, transportation, bathing, sometimes driving, driving them to church and to the grocery store. Without these family caregivers, which we refer to as the backbone of Wisconsin’s long term care system, it would — the whole system would fall apart. Obviously, there will always be a need for assisted living and for nursing homes, but family caregivers are the heroes of Wisconsin. And as the state gets older, AARP believes that the state should do more to support this group.

Frederica Freyberg:
What kind of supports for allowing people to live independently at home would get older people’s vote?

Jim Flaherty:
That’s a great question, and at the state level, we, AARP, is advancing an idea called a caregiver tax credit. The governor has had it in his last two budgets, but it’s been removed later in the process by the Joint Finance Committee. This would be a $500 income tax credit that would go to family caregivers, and it could help offset some of the costs that they incur while providing this care. Family caregivers spend about $7,000 a year out of their own pocket to help their loved ones remain in their homes. This tax credit can help them with costs such as, you know, putting in a handicap ramp or a shower bar, or any costs that they incur while providing care for a loved one. They could write this off up to $500. And we think that this is something the state legislature really needs to look at.

Frederica Freyberg:
So meanwhile, heading into Election Day, how are seniors faring in Wisconsin right now?

Jim Flaherty:
Well, like I say, some, you know, many, many are struggling. We, AARP Wisconsin, we’re the state office of a huge national office and we go all over the state. So we go to — we host events at fairs. We are at the Iola Car Show. We’ve been in La Crosse, Madison, Kenosha. And folks are telling us, you know, they’re struggling. They really want candidates to listen to their concerns and a lot of — most of them are pocketbook issues. They are concerned about the economy, utility rates rising without them having a say in it. They want to be able to have somebody who has their back. And that’s what these candidates can provide is saying, you know, we understand the struggles that you are going through as an older Wisconsinite and we’ve got your back and you know, you don’t have to talk to AARP. You can talk to anyone on the street to know that Wisconsin is getting older. More and more baby boomers are retiring every single day and we’re going to have an older state and we’ve got to do things to support them. Some things like making sure we have high speed internet in every community across the state. That is no longer a luxury. It is a requirement. Folks who aren’t close to hospital systems or clinics, they rely on telehealth. So that’s how they can communicate with their doctors. It mitigates social isolation so that these folks can talk to loved ones. Broadband expansion is huge for Wisconsin seniors, and it’s something that needs to be addressed.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. We leave it there. Jim Flaherty, AARP Wisconsin. Thank you.

Jim Flaherty:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
For more on this and other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our website at PBSWisconsin.org and then click on the news tab. To see all of our election coverage, visit WisconsinVote.org. That’s our program for tonight. I’m Frederica Freyberg. Have a good weekend.

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Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.