FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHEN WISCONSIN VOTERS NARROWLY ELECTED DONALD TRUMP, THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM OF THIS STATE BEING A BLUE WALL FOR HILLARY CLINTON DISSOLVED. RURAL WHITE VOTERS OUTSIDE THE STATE’S URBAN CENTERS HELPED VAULT TRUMP TO THE PRESIDENCY. VOTERS LOOKING FOR THEIR PIECE OF THE PIE. UW-MADISON POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR KATHY CRAMER HAS TRAVELED ACROSS RURAL WISCONSIN IN HER RESEARCH ON POLARIZED POLITICS AND RECENTLY RELEASED HER BOOK “POLITICS OF RESENTMENT” ON HOW GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER WAS SUCCESSFULLY ATTUNED TO THAT. WE SAT DOWN WITH HER AT HER OFFICE FOLLOWING TUESDAYS’ ELECTION AND STARTED BY ASKING HER TO DESCRIBE POLITICS OF RESENTMENT.

KATHY CRAMER:

WELL, IT’S BASICALLY THIS SENTIMENT THAT I HEARD AND LEARNED ABOUT IN RURAL PLACES IN WISCONSIN. THIS SENSE OF NOT GETTING ONE’S FAIR SHARE AND ONE’S FAIR SHARE OF STUFF, TAXPAYER MONEY, BUT ALSO DECISION-MAKING POWER AND RESPECT. SO THE SENSE THAT PEOPLE IN THE CITIES DON’T RESPECT PEOPLE IN SMALL TOWN WISCONSIN AND KIND OF IGNORE THEIR CONCERNS. AND FOLKS IN THOSE SMALL TOWN COMMUNITIES DON’T GET THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES. THAT’S THE SENTIMENT. BUT ANOTHER PART OF IT IS THAT RESENTMENT, THE POLITICS OF IT COMES INTO PLAY WHEN POLITICIANS TAP INTO THAT, AND OFFER PEOPLE TARGET OF BLAME, REASONS WHY THEY'RE FEELING THAT KIND OF RESENTMENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO IN THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP, THE WISCONSIN EXAMPLE OF THESE RESENTMENTS, IS THAT JUST WRIT LARGE?

KATHY CRAMER:

IT SURE IS. YOU CAN SEE IT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ELECTION RETURNS. THE VERY FANCY MAPS BEING PUT OUT NOW RIGHT. YOU CAN SEE IT WITHIN PARTICULAR STATES AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE TOO. THE COASTAL AREAS MORE DEMOCRATIC LEANING, ESPECIALLY IN THE CITIES. AND THEN THE CENTER OF THE COUNTRY BEING MUCH MORE REPUBLICAN-LEANING, RIGHT? SO THAT’S JUST THE CORRELATIONS. TIME WILL TELL AS WE, YOU KNOW, THINK ABOUT, REFLECT ON THIS ELECTION WHETHER THOSE — THE SENTIMENT OF RESENTMENT WAS UNDERPINNING SUPPORT FOR TRUMP. BUT MY BEST GUESS AT THIS POINT IS THAT YEAH, WISCONSIN WAS THE NATION. THE NATION WAS WISCONSIN WRIT LARGE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHY DOES SUCH RESENTMENTS INVOLVE SCAPEGOATING OTHERS LIKE MINORITIES OR IMMIGRANTS OR PUBLIC SERVANTS?

KATHY CRAMER:

PARTLY I THINK IT’S BECAUSE WE ALL — CAUSAL STORIES ARE VERY USEFUL FOR US WHEN WE’RE IN A BEWILDERING TIME AND TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF IT. AND WHEN SOMEONE GIVES US A CONCRETE TARGET AS PART OF THAT CAUSAL STORY, IT’S VERY APPEALING. APPEALING NOT NECESSARILY IN A POSITIVE SENSE, BUT HELPS US MAKE SENSE OF THE WORLD. POLITICALLY IT’S VERY ADVANTAGEOUS WHEN YOU CAN MOBILIZE OPPOSITION TO A CONCRETE SOCIAL GROUP AND FOMENT ANGER IN THE PROCESS, IT CAN BE A VERY MOTIVATING THING, GETTING PEOPLE TO THE POLLS OR STIRRING UP PARTICIPATION IN RALLIES AND DONATING MONEY. SO POLITICALLY IT’S OFTEN VERY USEFUL TO SCAPEGOAT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT KIND OF A GRADE WOULD YOU GIVE DONALD TRUMP ON THE USE OF THAT?

KATHY CRAMER:

A+.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IF THERE’S SO MUCH OF THIS POLARIZING RESENTMENT OUT THERE, WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT IT?

KATHY CRAMER:

OH, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. I THINK WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ON MULTIPLE LEVELS. I THINK ORDINARY FOLKS, THIS ISN’T WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR THIS WEEK, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO TRY TO BE AS COMPASSIONATE AND KIND TO ONE ANOTHER AS POSSIBLE. AND TO INTERRUPT SCAPEGOATING WHEN WE CAN. BUT I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO DEMAND WAY MORE OF OUR LEADERS TO NOT USE THAT AS JUSTIFICATION FOR POLICIES. DEMAND THAT– YOU KNOW, IF YOU’RE GOING TO SELL A POLICY TO ME, TELL ME WHY IT’S ACTUALLY GOING TO IMPROVE MY LIFE. DON’T SELL IT TO ME BY TELLING ME THAT THIS WILL PREVENT UNDESERVING PEOPLE FROM GETTING THINGS THAT SHOULD BE COMING TO ME. I MEAN, IT’S A — JUST PERSONALLY AS A CITIZEN, I MUCH PREFER PEOPLE TELL ME ABOUT THE MERITS OF A POLICY THAN TELL ME ABOUT WHY A SOCIAL GROUP IS UNDESERVING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU WERE QUOTED IN THE WASHINGTON POST AS SAYING THAT THE BEST STRATEGY FOR DONALD TRUMP IF HE WERE TO LOSE WOULD BE TO SAY WE NEED TO COME TOGETHER AS A COUNTRY AND WE NEED TO BE NICE TO EACH OTHER. NOW, HE CAME CLOSE TO SAYING THAT AFTER HE WON IN A SPEECH THAT HE MADE. BUT HOW POSSIBLE IS THAT NOW, BECAUSE THERE’S A WHOLE NEW GROUP OF ANGRY PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE?

KATHY CRAMER:

WELL, ISN’T THAT THE SAD THING? LIKE THE RESENTMENT JUST BREEDS MORE RESENTMENT. I THINK DEMOCRACY REQUIRES BOTH THE WINNERS AND THE LOSERS TO BE ON THEIR BEST BEHAVIOR AFTERWARDS, RIGHT? SO THE WINNERS, IT’S THEIR DUTY NOW TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE IN PAIN AND TO NOT GLOAT AND TO TRY TO REPAIR DIVIDES THAT EXIST. AND FOR THE LOSERS, IT’S THEIR DUTY TO REMEMBER THAT TIMES CHANGE AND FIGHTING FOR A CAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IS WORTHWHILE. AND EVERYBODY’S PRETTY EXHAUSTED THIS WEEK. NOBODY FEELS LIKE RISING TO THE OCCASION OF A DUTY RIGHT NOW. BUT I THINK IT’S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT BOTH SIDES STEP IT UP.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. KATHY CRAMER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

KATHY CRAMER:

THANK YOU.