FREDERICA FREYBERG:
NOW TO OTHER STATE CAPITOL NEWS. AN ABORTION BILL IS ON THE FAST TRACK IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE. UNDER THE MEASURE, ABORTIONS AFTER 20 WEEKS WOULD BE BANNED EXCEPT IN MEDICAL EMERGENCIES AND DOCTORS WHO PERFORM THEM COULD FACE FELONY CHARGES, PRISON AND FINES. THE BILL OFFERS NO EXCEPTIONS IN THE CASE OF RAPE OR INCEST. ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT NUMBERS, 89 SUCH ABORTIONS WERE PERFORMED IN WISCONSIN IN 2015, USUALLY ACCORDING TO DOCTORS, BECAUSE OF LETHAL FETAL ANOMALIES. CURRENT WISCONSIN LAW BANS ABORTIONS AFTER ABOUT 24 WEEKS OF PREGNANCY. THE BILL’S AUTHORS CALL IT THE PAIN-CAPABLE UNBORN CHILD PROTECTION ACT, SAYING FETUSES AT 20 WEEKS CAN FEEL PAIN. WHILE THAT IS DISPUTED BY MANY IN THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY INCLUDING A GUEST WE WILL SPEAK WITH IN A MOMENT, HERE’S HOW REPRESENTATIVE JESSE KREMER FRAMES IT.
JESSE KREMER:
IF THERE IS ANY CHANCE THAT A FIVE-MONTH-OLD BABY WHO IS SYSTEMATICALLY DISMEMBERED IN THE WOMB CAN FEEL HER BODY BE TORN APART, WILL YOU BE CONTENT TO SIT IDLY BY?
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
MARY LAZICH IS THE SENATE SPONSOR OF THE BILL. SHE JOINS US NOW AND SENATOR, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
MARY LAZICH:
THANK YOU. GOOD MORNING. IT’S NICE TO BE HERE.
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHY IS THERE SUCH A DISCONNECT BETWEEN AUTHORS OF THIS BILL LIKE YOURSELF WHO SAY IT’S A FACT THAT BABIES CAN FEEL PAIN AT 20 WEEKS AND PHYSICIANS, MANY OF WHOM SAY BABIES CANNOT?
MARY LAZICH:
WELL, WHAT’S REALLY INTERESTING, FREDERICA, I WENT BACK AND GATHERED ALL OF THE TESTIMONY FROM OUR HEARING AND I HAVE IT. THERE’S THE STACK OF TESTIMONY. AND I SEPARATED IT INTO — THIS IS THE STACK OF MEDICAL EXPERTS THAT TESTIFIED IN FAVOR OF THE BILL, SO WE HAVE VERY PRESTIGIOUS PROFESSORS, PAIN EXPERTS, FETAL PAIN EXPERTS, AND THEY PROVIDE JUST A LOT OF INFORMATION IN THEIR TESTIMONY, A LOT OF SINGLE-SPACED PAGES AND STUDIES AND INFORMATION. AND JUST ONE QUOTE. I COULD DO BEEN, BUT ONE IS AND IT IS ENTIRELY UNCONTESTED THAT THE NEUROSTRUCTURES NECESSARY TO DETECT NOT JUST STIMULI ARE IN PLACE BY EIGHT TO TEN WEEKS OF HUMAN DEVELOPMENT. SO THAT’S ENTIRELY UNCONTESTED. AGAIN, I’VE GOT STACKS AND STACKS OF EXPERTS. IN TERMS OF THOSE TESTIFYING AGAINST THE BILL, THERE ARE PROFESSIONALS IN HERE THAT TESTIFY AGAINST AND THEIR TESTIMONY HAS A LOT OF WORDS, BUT THEY ONLY REFERENCE ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION AS THEIR DATA AND THEY CITE WHAT IS AN ARTICLE THAT WAS 2005 IN THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION. AND THAT STUDY HAS BEEN CITED AS FLAWED BY THE EXPERTS BECAUSE WHAT THEY DID IS GATHER A SURVEY OF INFORMATION AND THEN DRAW CONCLUSIONS FROM THAT. SO EXPERTS THAT DO RESEARCH DISCOUNT THAT. AND I HAVE SOME DOCUMENTATION SAYING THAT, QUOTE, “IT IS FLAWED BECAUSE THEY IGNORE A LARGE BODY OF RESEARCH RELATED TO PAIN PROCESSING IN THE PAIN, PRESENT A FAULTY SCIENTIFIC RATIONALE AND USE INCONSISTENT METHODOLOGY.” SO THAT’S THE ONLY ONE CITED IN HERE. IT’S A LOT OF WORDS. BUT IN THIS OTHER TESTIMONY THERE’S JUST TONS OF EXPERTS.
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
MY QUESTION TO THAT THEN WOULD BE WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IS THE MOTIVATION FOR THESE PHYSICIAN ORGANIZATIONS ACROSS WISCONSIN TO DISPUTE YOUR FINDINGS OF FACT THAT SAY THAT BABIES AT THIS GESTATION CAN FEEL PAIN? WHAT’S THEIR MOTIVATION?
MARY LAZICH:
THAT IS A VERY GOOD QUESTION. THEY SEEM TO BE ABORTION ADVOCATES AND CITE JUST THAT ONE PIECE OF INFORMATION. MAYBE THEY HAVE SOME OTHER DATA, WHICH I’M VERY WILLING TO LOOK AT. BUT THEY HAVE JUST THAT ONE DOCUMENT THAT THEY REFERENCE AND THAT HAS BEEN DETERMINED FLAWED BY WORLD-RENOWNED EXPERT, WHEREAS THOSE FOR THE BILL ALL AGREE — SOME AGREE THAT PAIN IS MUCH EARLIER, AS I SAID, EIGHT TO TEN WEEKS. BUT THEY ALL COME TO THE CONSENSUS DEFINITELY BY 20 AND MAYBE EARLIER.
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
NOW, YOUR BILL WOULD BAN THESE PROCEDURES, ABORTIONS, AT 20 WEEKS AND BEYOND EXCEPT IN THE CASE OF A MEDICAL EMERGENCY. AND THEN I UNDERSTAND YOUR BILL WOULD MAKE PHYSICIANS DO AN ABORTION IF THEY HAD TO IN A MEDICAL EMERGENCY TO SAVE THE LIFE OF THE BABY. ARE YOU TIPPING THE SCALES IN FAVOR OF THE BABY OVER THE MOTHER?
MARY LAZICH:
NOT AT ALL. WHAT WE’RE SAYING IS AN EQUAL PROTECTION FOR BOTH. WE’RE SAYING IF A PREGNANCY NEEDS TO BE TERMINATED, DO IT IN THE SAFEST WAY POSSIBLE FOR THE BABY AND THE BABY ISN’T ALWAYS GOING TO SURVIVE. THERE WAS ONE GENTLEMAN THAT TESTIFIED BEFORE CONGRESS, AGAIN, A VERY REPUTABLE, PRESTIGIOUS PERSON, THAT SAID HE’S BEEN PRACTICING 25 YEARS IN MATERNAL FETAL MEDICINE, WHICH IS HIGH RISK PREGNANCY, THAT’S ALL HE DOES. SO 25 YEARS OF PRACTICE. HE’S NEVER HAD TO TERMINATE A PREGNANCY. HE HAS HAD TO DELIVER PATIENTS PREMATURELY AND HAD BABIES DIE, BUT HE’S NEVER HAD TO DO AN ABORTION TO SAVE THE MOTHER.
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT PHYSICIANS AND THE KINDS OF THINGS THEY NEED TO DO IN TREATMENT, WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO DOCTORS WHO SAY THAT THEY DON’T WANT LEGISLATORS INTERFERING WITH THE TREATMENT OF THEIR PATIENTS?
MARY LAZICH:
WELL, THEY TALK ABOUT THE PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, DOCTOR-PATIENT RELATIONSHIP. I THINK WE ALL RESPECT THAT. BUT THEN AGAIN THERE ARE CASES — WE HAVE MEDICAL MALPRACTICE CASES. WE HAVE CASES WHERE DOCTORS DON’T PERFORM APPROPRIATELY. I CERTAINLY DON’T THINK WE WANT SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS RUSTY BLADES. THERE ARE LAWS. WE DO HAVE LAWS IN OUR COUNTRY THAT ARE RESPECTED AND WELCOMED BY MANY.
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
THE BILL WOULD MAKE IT A FELONY FOR A PHYSICIAN TO PERFORM ABORTIONS AT 20 WEEKS. WHY DO YOU ATTACH THE CRIMINAL PENALTY?
MARY LAZICH:
WELL, IF WE DON’T PUT THE CRIMINAL PENALITY ON ALONG WITH ANY LAW WE DO, IF WE DON’T HAVE A CRIMINAL PENALTY, WHY DO THE LAW? YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME MEASURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND MEASURE OF SAFETY TO THE PUBLIC.
FREDERICA FREYBERG:
ALL RIGHT. SENATOR MARY LAZICH, THANKS VERY MUCH.
MARY LAZICH:
THANK YOU.
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News Stories from PBS Wisconsin
02/03/25
‘Here & Now’ Highlights: State Rep. Sylvia Ortiz-Velez, Jane Graham Jennings, Chairman Tehassi Hill

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