Here & Now

Here and Now for Dec. 2, 2016

ANNOUNCER:

FUNDING FOR “HERE AND NOW” IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DANE COUNTY CLERKS PORE OVER 2016 PRESIDENTIAL BALLOTS AS OUR STATE’S HISTORIC RECOUNT GETS UNDERWAY. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. TONIGHT ON “HERE AND NOW,” WE HEAR FROM THE STEIN CAMPAIGN ON WHY THEY’VE CALLED FOR AND FUNDED THE RECOUNT. ELECTIONS COMMISSION CHAIR MARK THOMSEN IS HERE TO TELL US HOW THE PROCESS IS GOING SO FAR. LATER OUR CURRENT DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP EXPLAINS WHY A DEPARTMENT REALIGNMENT IN THE PERMIT PROCESS IS A GOOD IDEA. THEN A PAST DNR SECRETARY WILL WEIGH IN WITH HIS CONCERNS. BUT FIRST, GREEN PARTY CANDIDATE JILL STEIN IS GETTING WHAT SHE WANTED AND HAS SO FAR PAID $3.5 MILLION FOR IT IN THIS STATE. A RETABULATION OF WISCONSIN’S NEARLY THREE MILLION BALLOTS CAST IN THE NOVEMBER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS. BALLOTS THAT PENDING THE RECOUNT PUT DONALD TRUMP UP 22,000 VOTES OVER HILLARY CLINTON. THE STEIN CAMPAIGN TRIED UNSUCCESSFULLY THIS WEEK TO MANDATE A STATEWIDE HAND COUNT OF BALLOTS. STILL, MANY COUNTIES HAVE CHOSEN ON THEIR OWN TO HAND COUNT. HERE’S HOW IT ALL BREAKS OUT. 47 COUNTIES PLAN TO RECOUNT BY HAND. 13 COUNTIES PLAN A COMBINATION OF OPTICAL SCANNERS AND HAND COUNT. 12 COUNTIES PLAN TO USE OPTICAL SCANNERS. THE DEADLINE FOR COUNTY BOARDS OF CANVASSERS TO COMPLETE THEIR RECOUNT WORK IS 8:00 P.M., MONDAY, DECEMBER 12. THE COMMISSION PLANS TO CERTIFY RESULTS ON TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13. MARK THOMSEN IS CHAIR OF THE WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION. HE JOINS US AT THE END OF A HECTIC WEEK FROM MILWAUKEE. MR. THOMSEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

MARK THOMSEN:

GREETINGS. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, SO HOW IS THIS RECOUNT PROGRESS GOING NOW ONE DAY INTO IT?

MARK THOMSEN:

FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, I THINK IT’S GOING REMARKABLY WELL. YOU KNOW, WE GOT THE PETITION MIDDLE OF THANKSGIVING WEEKEND. LATE FRIDAY AFTERNOON WE CONTACTED FELLOW COMMISSIONERS TO SCHEDULE A MEETING FIRST THING MONDAY MORNING, KNOWING THAT WE HAD TO BE DONE BY DECEMBER 13. YOU KNOW, WE HAD AN UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT AMONGST THE THREE DEMOCRATS, THREE REPUBLICANS THAT THIS STATE WOULD GET IT DONE, GET IT DONE TIMELY FASHION AND WE FULLY ANTICIPATE THAT WE WILL CONFIRM THE PRESIDENT-ELECT AS THE NEXT PRESIDENT.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

MEANWHILE, HOWEVER, A LAWSUIT HAS BEEN FILED IN FEDERAL COURT IN MADISON SEEKING TO STOP THIS RECOUNT. WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT YOUR RESPONSE AND REACTION TO THAT?

MARK THOMSEN:

I THINK PERSONALLY I WAS SURPRISED THAT A PAC ASSOCIATED WITH THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WOULD TRY TO STOP THE RECOUNT. IT WAS OUR INTENTION TO FOLLOW STATE STATUTES AND GET THIS DONE IN A TIMELY FASHION. WE HAVE 72 COUNTY CANVASSING BOARDS WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK, OR VIRTUALLY AROUND THE CLOCK, WORKING VERY, VERY HARD. AS OF LAST NIGHT, WE HAD TWO COUNTIES COMPLETE, MENOMINEE COUNTY, IRON COUNTY. IT CONFIRMED THAT THERE HAD BEEN A NET CHANGE OF VOTES BETWEEN THE CLINTON AND TRUMP CAMPAIGN OF ONE VOTE. YOU KNOW, LAST TIME THERE WAS A STATEWIDE COUNT THERE WERE ABOUT 300 VOTES THAT CHANGED OUT OF 1.5 MILLION. FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, I WANTED THIS COUNT, THIS RECOUNT TO BE COMPLETED TO CONFIRM THAT WE’RE NOT COUNTING ILLEGAL BALLOTS IN THE STATE OF WISCONSIN AND THAT HARD-WORKING WISCONSINITES ARE GETTING IT DONE. WITH RESPECT TO THIS ATTEMPT TO STOP THE RECOUNT, I THINK IT’S VERY, VERY IRONIC. WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO CONFIRM THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WON THIS RACE AND THAT THERE IS NOT ANY ILLEGAL CONDUCT GOING ON STATEWIDE. AND WHY NOW THE WINNER OR FRIENDS OF WINNER WOULD WANT TO STOP IT IS BEYOND ME. THE ONLY REASON I CAN GUESS IS THAT THEY DON’T WANT THE TRUTH TO COME OUT THAT WE’RE NOT COUNTING ILLEGAL VOTES, YOU KNOW? I MEAN, THIS IS AN ACCURATE PLACE. WHY ELSE WOULD THEY WANT TO STOP THE COUNT RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, IF WE’RE TRYING TO CONFIRM THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WON.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

YOU KNOW, IN FACT EARLIER THIS WEEK PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP COMMENTED THAT THERE WERE MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL VOTES CAST ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN THE ELECTION, GIVING HILLARY CLINTON THE POPULAR VOTE. WHAT’S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT? YOU KNOW, ALSO IN KEEPING WITH THIS LAWSUIT SEEKING TO STOP DOWN YOUR RECOUNT?

MARK THOMSEN:

FROM THE VANTAGE POINT AS CHAIR OF THE COMMISSION, BASED ON THE HISTORICAL PRACTICE OF HARD-WORKING PEOPLE STATEWIDE THAT HANDLE THESE ELECTIONS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS MY OPINION THAT IT WAS A FALSE CHARGE AGAINST THE PEOPLE THAT RUN OUR ELECTIONS. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A VERY SAFE SYSTEM. IT HAS BEEN DOUBLE-CHECKED. IT’S HISTORICALLY BEEN AUDITED. THERE HASN’T BEEN ANY ALLEGATIONS OF SPECIFIC HACKS AROUND THE STATE. AND I BELIEVE AND PERSONALLY WANTED THIS RECOUNT COMPLETED SO THAT THE WORLD KNOWS THAT WE ARE COUNTING REAL VOTES, NOT ILLEGAL VOTES.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

NOW, WHAT ABOUT THE CONCERNS ON THE PART OF THE JILL STEIN CAMPAIGN THAT NOT COUNTING BY HAND ACROSS THE BOARD RISKS SCANNING PAPER BALLOTS THROUGH THE SAME COMPUTERIZED VOTING MACHINES THAT WERE USED FOR THE INITIAL COUNT, WHICH ACCORDING TO THAT UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN COMPUTER SCIENCE PROFESSOR MIGHT BE HACKED?

MARK THOMSEN:

THAT ISSUE WAS RESOLVED BY THE JUDGE IN DANE COUNTY. JILL STEIN HAD THE RIGHT TO APPEAL FROM THAT DECISION. SHE DIDN’T. THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A COURT ORDER BEFORE YOU GET A RECOUNT. AND IT IS PROCEEDING ALONG THOSE LINES. I THINK I CAN SAY THIS. SIGNIFICANTLY, IN THE COUNT AT MENOMINEE COUNTY, IT CONFIRMED THAT THERE HAD BEEN AN ERROR AND 17 JILL STEIN VOTES HADN’T ACTUALLY BEEN COUNTED. SO HAVING THIS RECOUNT ACTUALLY HAVE — IT CONFIRMS THESE 17 VOTERS, THAT THEIR VOTE WILL COUNT. SO IT MAY BE A VERY EXPENSIVE UNDERTAKING FOR THOSE 17 VOTES, BUT I’M SURE THOSE 17 PEOPLE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE THAT THEIR VOTES ARE GOING TO BE COUNTED.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

TO THAT LARGER ISSUE, COULD WISCONSIN’S VOTING MACHINES HAVE CYBERSECURITY RISKS?

MARK THOMSEN:

THERE’S NO INDICATION THAT WE’VE HAD THAT PROBLEM. YOU KNOW, HOMELAND SECURITY WAS HERE BEFORE THE ELECTION. MICHAEL HAAS AND HIS STAFF HAVE, YOU KNOW, DONE ALL THE DOUBLE-CHECKS. OF COURSE, THERE’S ALWAYS SOME OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY. BUT WE ARE VERY, VERY FORTUNATE IN THIS STATE TO HAVE A VERY, VERY COMPETENT STAFF, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE KEEP THEM FULLY FUNDED. THAT’S THE NEXT BIG STEP HERE. ONCE WE GET THIS RECOUNT DONE, IS TO GET OUR STAFF FUNDED BY, YOU KNOW, THE LEGISLATURE. A LOT OF OUR STAFF RIGHT NOW IS FUNDED ON FEDERAL DOLLARS, AND IT’S GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS RECOUNT MOVE TO GET THE BUDGET PASSED SO WE HAVE THE STAFF. IF WE LEARN ANYTHING FROM THIS RECOUNT IS THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE A VERY COMPETENT, FULLY-FUNDED STAFF TO HANDLE THESE KINDS OF MATTERS. I MEAN, WE HAVE ASKED OUR STAFF AND THE STATEWIDE COUNTIES TO DO A MAJOR, MAJOR UNDERTAKING. AND AS YOU AND I TALK, THEY’RE WORKING VERY, VERY HARD. AND I HOPE THAT MY FELLOW CITIZENS REALLY, REALLY APPRECIATE THEIR EFFORTS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

I’M SURE THEY DO. MARK THOMSEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

MARK THOMSEN:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, THE DEADLINE FOR THE 72 COUNTY RECOUNT IS MONDAY, DECEMBER 12 AT 8:00 P.M. THE ELECTIONS COMMISSION PLANS TO CERTIFY THOSE RESULTS IN SHORT ORDER. THE NEXT DAY IN FACT, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13. THE RECOUNT WAS CALLED FOR AND IS BEING PAID FOR BY THE JILL STEIN CAMPAIGN. MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF IS LEAD COUNSEL FOR THE JILL STEIN CAMPAIGN RECOUNT EFFORT. HE JOINS US BY PHONE FROM NEW YORK CITY AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

MY PLEASURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FIRST, WHAT’S YOUR REACTION TO THE LAWSUIT FILED ON THE PART OF PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP SUPPORTERS TO STOP THIS RECOUNT?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

I DON’T THINK IT REALLY HAS ANY MERIT AND IT WON’T BE SUCCESSFUL AND I CAN’T SAY I’M COMPLETELY SURPRISED ALTHOUGH I AM DISAPPOINTED. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK ALL PEOPLE, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT PARTY THEY MIGHT SUPPORT OR WHAT CANDIDATE THEY MIGHT SUPPORT, WOULD SUPPORT A PROCESS WHERE WE CAN VERIFY AND ENSURE THE INTEGRITY OF THE VOTE AND MAKE SURE THAT THERE HASN’T BEEN ANY KIND OF OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE OR MANIPULATION.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR LEGAL RESPONSE TO THIS?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

WELL, WE ARE PREPARING PAPERS AND WILL BE INTERVENING BECAUSE WE ARE NOT A PARTY TO THE LAWSUIT. BASICALLY, IT’S A COUPLE OF PACS OR SUPER PACS, PERHAPS, I’M NOT EVEN SURE, WHO HAVE FILED THE CASE TO SEEK AN INJUNCTION TO STOP THE RECOUNTING OF THE VOTE, WHICH IS RATHER ANTIDEMOCRATIC, I MIGHT ADD. BUT, IN ANY EVENT, WE WILL INTERVENE AND CERTAINLY DEFEND ALONGSIDE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL’S OFFICE, WHO WILL BE DEFENDING THE WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION, WHO’S JUST FOLLOWING THE STATUTES THAT ARE LAID OUT IN WISCONSIN LAW AS PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HOW IS THE RECOUNT GOING IN WISCONSIN?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

I MEAN, CERTAINLY THE REPORTS THAT I’VE BEEN GETTING ARE — YOU KNOW, I HAVEN’T SEEN ANYTHING PARTICULARLY NOTABLE OR UNUSUAL. NO RECOUNT GOES PERFECTLY SMOOTHLY, SO I CERTAINLY AM AWARE OF VARIOUS SMALLER KINDS OF ITEMS THAT HAVE COME UP. BUT I’VE BEEN VERY IMPRESSED AS SOMEBODY WHO DOES NOT LIVE IN WISCONSIN WITH JUST THE HARD WORK AND THE PROFESSIONALISM OF EVERYBODY WITHIN THE ELECTION COMMISSION AND THE WORK THAT THEY’RE DOING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, THANK YOU ON THEIR BEHALF. EVERYONE, IT SEEMS, EXPERTS, CANDIDATES, ELECTION OFFICIALS SAY THAT THIS RECOUNT IS NOT LIKELY AT ALL TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION. WHY THEN DID JILL STEIN EMBARK ON IT?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

WELL, IF THERE HAS BEEN NO OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE, I THINK THE LIKELIHOOD OF THERE BEING A 11,000 VOTE SHIFT, WHICH IS WHAT WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FOR THERE TO BE A CHANGE IN THE OUTCOME, IS PROBABLY STATISTICALLY UNLIKELY. BUT THE BASIS FOR THIS CAMPAIGN EFFORT BY THE STEIN CAMPAIGN IN MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS IS REALLY — STARTS FROM THE UNPRECEDENTED ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION OF SUCCESSFUL BREACHES BY FOREIGN IP ADDRESSES HACKING INTO THE DNC, HACKING INTO THE CAMPAIGN CHAIR PODESTA’S EMAIL, HACKING INTO THE ILLINOIS ELECTIONS OFFICIAL WEBSITE AND TAKING VOTER DATA, DOING THE SAME THING IN ARIZONA. THERE HAS BEEN A CONCERTED EFFORT BY SOPHISTICATED CYBER ATTACKERS ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE THE OUTCOME OF OUR ELECTION. AND THE ONLY WAY TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAS HAPPENED IN ANY WAY THAT IS RELIABLE IS TO COUNT THE HAND RECORD. THAT IS THE FAILSAFE THAT WISCONSIN FORTUNATELY FOR THE MOST PART HAS, SOME OTHER STATES LIKE MICHIGAN HAVE. UNFORTUNATELY, SOME OTHER STATES DON’T.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

DO YOU HAVE SPECIFIC EVIDENCE THAT VOTER RESULTS WERE HACKED OR ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES COMPROMISED IN WISCONSIN?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

I GUESS THERE’S TWO ANSWERS TO THAT. ONE IS IT’S A BIT OF A CATCH-22, RIGHT? THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT EVIDENCE IS TO EXAMINE THE RECORD TO SEE IF THERE’S SOME KIND OF DIVERGENCE. BUT THE OTHER ANSWER — AND IT’S AN IMPORTANT ONE — IS THAT THERE WAS A STUDY DONE BY A STATISTICIAN AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN THAT WAS PUBLISHED JUST A FEW DAYS AGO WHERE HE DID A VERY SOPHISTICATED ANALYSIS THAT IS ACTUALLY BASED ON THE FINAL DIGIT IN THE NUMBERS AT THE WARD LEVEL IN WISCONSIN ON ALL OF THE COUNTS AND ASSUMES THAT BASED ON PROBABILITY THE MEAN OF THAT NUMBER SHOULD ALWAYS BE 4.5. I HOPE THIS ISN’T TOO TECHNICAL. BUT IN THE END, THE END RESULT WAS HE IDENTIFIED ANOMALIES THAT ARE INDICATIVE OF THERE BEING MANIPULATION OF THE VOTE IN WISCONSIN IN THE SMALLER WARDS. AND SO THERE IS, YES, ABSOLUTELY HARD, ACTUAL EVIDENCE OF A STATISTICAL SORT BASED ON THIS ANALYSIS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

GIVEN THAT NOT ALL OF THE RECOUNTING WILL BE DONE BY HAND IN WISCONSIN, CAN THE STEIN CAMPAIGN EVER BE SATISFIED OF THE VERACITY OF THE OUTCOME?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS OUR PREFERENCE. AS YOU KNOW, WE WENT TO COURT TO TRY TO CONVINCE A JUDGE TO ORDER THAT IT ALL BE DONE BY HAND. APPROXIMATELY 49 COUNTIES ARE DOING THE RECOUNT ENTIRELY BY HAND. ANOTHER TEN OR SO ARE MACHINE. AND THEN THE REST ARE A MIX. SO AN AWFUL LOT OF THE VOTE, WELL PAST A MAJORITY OF THE VOTE, WILL BE RECOUNTED BY HAND. AND ALTHOUGH OUR PREFERENCE WOULD BE FOR A FULL RECOUNT, AS I SAID, IT WILL CREATE — IF THERE WAS HACKING OF THE SORT THAT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT OR INTERFERENCE OF ANY SORT, WE’RE VERY HOPEFUL THAT IT WOULD BE REVEALED BASED ON THE RECOUNT THAT WE HAVE SOUGHT AND THAT IS BEING DONE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WITH JUST ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT, DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF CALLS THIS A, QUOTE, SCAM BY THE GREEN PARTY FOR AN ELECTION THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN CONCEDED AND SAYS THAT THE RECOUNT WAS A WAY FOR STEIN TO FILL HER COFFERS WITH MONEY. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

WELL, ALL THE MONEY THAT’S BEEN RAISED THUS FAR, $3.5 MILLION HAS ALREADY BEEN PAID TO THE STATE OF WISCONSIN TO PAY FOR THE RECOUNT WHICH THE CAMPAIGN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR. THIS IS JUST ONE OF A WHOLE SERIES OF COUNTLESS, IRRESPONSIBLE COMMENTS AND TWEETS BY PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP. YOU KNOW, HE’S ALSO SAID THAT THERE’S WIDESPREAD VOTER FRAUD. SO IF THERE’S WIDESPREAD VOTER FRAUD, THEN EVERYBODY, INCLUDING HIM, SHOULD BE SUPPORTING VERIFICATION. SO I DON’T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. I DON’T TAKE ALMOST ANYTHING HE SAYS VERY SERIOUSLY, TO BE HONEST.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF.

MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF:

THANK YOU.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

A FEDERAL JUDGE IN MADISON THIS AFTERNOON REJECTED A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER TO HALT THE WISCONSIN PRESIDENTIAL RECOUNT, BUT DID SET A HEARING DATE OF NEXT FRIDAY TO CONSIDER THE LAWSUIT ITSELF. IN THE 32nd STATE SENATE RACE, THE RECOUNT HAS BEEN COMPLETED. DEMOCRATIC SENATOR AND MINORITY LEADER JENNIFER SHILLING ANNOUNCED TODAY SHE RETAINS HER SEAT OVER REPUBLICAN DAN KAPANKE. THE WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION, HOWEVER, HAS YET TO OFFICIALLY REPORT THE FINAL TALLY. MORE WORK AND FEWER PEOPLE TO DO IT. THAT’S WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES FACES DOWN EVERY DAY. SO AFTER A YEAR OF TAKING A LOOK AT HOW TO PRIORITIZE RESOURCES, THE DNR THIS WEEK CAME OUT WITH A REORGANIZATION PLAN FOR THE AGENCY. DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP JOINS US FROM UW-PARKSIDE TO EXPLAIN IT. SECRETARY IS, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

CATHY STEPP:

OH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WELL, SO PEOPLE ARE LIKELY CONCERNED THAT THIS REORGANIZATION, AS YOU CALL IT, STRATEGIC ALIGNMENT, WILL WEAKEN ENVIRONMENTAL OR CONSERVATION STANDARDS, BUT YOU ASSURE IT WILL NOT. DESCRIBE WHY IT WON’T.

CATHY STEPP:

WELL REALLY WHAT THIS IS JUST ABOUT IS ABOUT A PRIORITIZATION OF OUR RESOURCES, BOTH HUMAN RESOURCES AND FISCAL RESOURCES. IT’S NOT A SECRET THAT WE’VE SEEN DWINDLING SUPPLY OF BOTH. OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, WE’VE SEEN JUST ABOUT A 20% DECREASE ESPECIALLY IN THE HUMAN RESOURCES SIDE. SO WE REALLY HAVE TO FIND A WAY, JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOES, TO DO THINGS BETTER, MORE EFFICIENTLY AND TAKE OPPORTUNITIES WHERE WE CAN TO LEAN MORE ON EXPERTISE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHILE STILL RETAINING OUR IMPORTANT REGULATORY FUNCTIONS. I DO WANT TO ASSURE EVERYBODY THERE’S NOTHING IN THIS PLAN THAT ROLLS BACK OR WEAKENS OR LOOSENS ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS OR STANDARDS. IT’S NOT ABOUT THAT. IT’S ABOUT HOW WE DO THE BUSINESS WE DO, NOT THE ACTUAL WHAT IT IS THAT’S GETTING DONE ON THE GROUND.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

HOW DO THESE CHANGES ADDRESS CONCERNS RAISED IN A RECENT AUDIT CRITICAL OF THE DNR FOR ITS BACKLOG IN WASTEWATER PROGRAM AND FOR THINGS INCLUDING LARGE FARMS AS WELL AS A SMALL NUMBER OF VIOLATION NOTICES GIVEN?

CATHY STEPP:

THIS WAS REALLY ONE OF THE FRONT BURNER CONCERNS THAT WE HAD, WAS THAT THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM WAS UNDER-FUNDED, UNDERSTAFFED. THIS ALIGNMENT EFFORT THAT WE’VE JUT GONE THROUGH HAS ALLOWED US TO REALLOCATE SOME OF THE RESOURCES WE HAD IN OTHER AREAS SO WE COULD PUT THEM TO MORE HIGH-PRIORITY URGENT NEEDS THAT WE HAD ON THE GROUND. SO WE CAN GET ACTUAL FEET IN THE BOOTS ON THE GROUND. SO THAT’S HELPED US DO THAT. BY AGAIN JUST LIKE YOU LOOK AT WHAT’S THE POT OF MONEY THAT YOU’VE GOT AVAILABLE TO YOU, WHAT LIMITATIONS ARE THERE TO THOSE POTS OF MONEY BECAUSE WE HAVE LOTS OF STRINGS ATTACHED TO THOSE. AND LUCKILY THROUGH THIS EFFORT, THROUGH EVERY LEVEL OF STAFF THAT WAS INVOLVED AS WELL AS EXTERNAL INPUT THAT WE TOOK FROM PEOPLE WHO WE SERVE, WHICH IS EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD WHO LIVES HERE, WORKS HERE, PLAYS HERE OR MAKES ANYTHING HERE IS OUR CUSTOMER. SO WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO ANSWER TO. BUT THIS IS ACTUALLY GOING TO GIVE US MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO GET OUT FROM UNDER FLUORESCENT LIGHTS, OUT OF THE CUBICLES, ONTO THE FIELD AND MAKING SURE THAT OUR FOLKS ARE DOING THE WORK TO MAKE SURE THERE’S COMPLIANCE WITH WHAT THE PERMITS ARE WRITTEN TO SAY. THAT’S THE BEST SERVICE WE CAN PROVIDE TO THE PUBLIC IS MAKE SURE WE’RE OUT THERE, THINGS ARE GETTING DONE RIGHT ON THE GROUND AND THIS PLAN IS GOING TO GET US THERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

STILL, ALL OF THAT SAID, DO YOU WISH YOU HAD A BIGGER POT OF MONEY TO WORK WITH?

CATHY STEPP:

I DON’T KNOW ANY AGENT SECRETARY THAT WOULDN’T WISH FOR MORE MONEY. BUT WE JUST DON’T HAVE THAT LUXURY. AND FRANKLY THE PRIVATE SECTOR GOES THROUGH THIS ALL THE TIME. ALL HEALTHY, DYNAMIC ORGANIZATIONS GO THROUGH REGULAR REVIEWING OF WHAT IT IS THAT THEY’VE GOT AVAILABLE TO THEM. WHAT ARE THE EXPECTATIONS OF THEIR CUSTOMERS? WHAT ARE THEIR PRICE POINTS AND THEN THEY ADJUST THEIR OPERATIONS ACCORDINGLY. WE HAVE A REAL RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT FOR TAXPAYERS IN WISCONSIN, TO MAKE SURE THE INVESTMENT THAT TAXPAYERS, LICENSE PAYERS, PERMIT APPLICANTS ARE PAYING ARE RETURNING THE BEST POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW, BENEFIT TO ALL OF THOSE USERS. AND THAT MEANS THAT INSTEAD OF SHUFFLING PAPERS AND CHECKING BOXES, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE RIGHT THINGS ARE BEING DONE OUT ON THE GROUND. AND THAT’S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT IT’S ABOUT PRIORITIZING THAT, BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS WITH PRODUCERS OF ALL KINDS, ACROSS ALL INDUSTRIES AND MAKING SURE WE’RE GETTING THE JOB DONE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

PART OF YOUR REORGANIZATION CALLS FOR A NEW WAY OF PERMITTING LARGE ANIMAL FARMS THAT GENERATE WATER-POLLUTING MANURE. YOU CALL FOR ALLOWING PRIVATE CONSULTANTS TO WRITE PERMIT APPLICATIONS FOR FARMERS. WHAT ROLE DOES THE DNR THEN PLAY IN PERMITTING THESE LARGE ANIMAL OPERATIONS AND IN APPROVING THEIR SO-CALLED NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT PLANS?

CATHY STEPP:

SO WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT DOING IS SIMILAR TO WHAT WE’VE BEEN DOING IN WISCONSIN FOR OVER TEN YEARS NOW. WE’VE GOT A PROGRAM CALLED THE WETLAND DELINEATOR ASSURANCE PROGRAM. TO WHERE WE’VE GOT CREDENTIALED PROFESSIONALS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHO HAVE LOTS OF TECHNICAL TRAINING FOR THIS TYPE OF WORK WHO ACTUALLY GO OUT AND MAP OUT WETLANDS FOR EXAMPLE. THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH A RIGOROUS PROCESS OF APPROVAL AT WISCONSIN DNR BEFORE THEY CAN GET ON THAT LIST. WHEN WE GET THOSE APPLICATIONS IN, IT DOESN’T TAKE AS MUCH TIME TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THE THOUSANDS OF PAGES, WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT PLANS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO BE ABLE TO BE ASSURED THAT THE WORK THEY’RE DOING WE CAN RELY UPON WHEN WE WRITE THE PERMITS. SO THIS ISN’T ABOUT PRODUCERS WRITING THEIR OWN PERMITS. IT’S NOT ABOUT THEM WRITING THEIR OWN REGULATIONS OR STANDARDS. THIS IS ABOUT SOME OF THE MORE HEAVY-DUTY, TECHNICAL PAPERWORK SIDE OF THINGS GETTING DONE BY PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE VERY WELL EDUCATED AND CREDENTIALED TO DO THAT. WE’VE DONE THAT WITH WETLANDS IN THE PAST IN 10 YEARS. WE’RE LOOKING TO KIND OF MIRROR THAT PROGRAM. WE’LL BE DOING SPOT AUDITS AND REGULAR CHECK-INS TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE CALCULATIONS ARE BEING DONE CORRECTLY. BUT THE REGULATORY FUNCTION DOES NOT LEAVE WISCONSIN DNR. SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN APPROVE OR DENY A PERMIT APPLICATION. IT’S JUST ONE CHUNK OF THAT APPLICATION CAN BE DONE BETTER IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, FREEING UP MY STAFF TO GET OUTSIDE, ON THE GROUND TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE RULES ARE BEING FOLLOWED.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THERE WAS AN OUTCRY WHEN THE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STAFFING WAS CUT BY MORE THAN 30%. WHAT DOES YOUR STRATEGIC REALIGNMENT DO WITH DNR SCIENTISTS GOING FORWARD?

CATHY STEPP:

ONE THING I WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY, OUR AGENCY IS FULL OF SCIENTISTS. WE’VE GOT BIOLOGISTS, GEOLOGISTS, HYDRO-GEOLOGISTS ALL THROUGHOUT THE DEPARTMENT. THE PORTION THAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT IS OUR RESEARCH DIVISION, TO WHERE WE’RE ACTUALLY DOING RESEARCH IN DIFFERENT AREAS. AND THE LEGISLATURE IN THE LAST BUDGET GO-AROUND DECIDED WE HAD MORE RESEARCHERS THAN WHAT THEY FELT WE NEEDED. AND SO WHAT WE HAD TO DO AGAIN IS TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT’S THE ACTUAL WORK THAT’S BEING DONE AND HOW CAN WE BETTER STREAMLINE THE WORK THAT OUR MANAGERS AND OUR SCIENTISTS OUT ON THE GROUND NEED TO HAVE DONE, THOSE QUESTIONS THAT THEY NEED ANSWERED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF MANAGEMENT. SO THAT’S WHAT WE’VE DONE NOW. WE’VE ALIGNED SOME OF THOSE RESEARCH PROFESSIONALS INTO DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE DEPARTMENT SO THEY CAN BETTER WORK IN SYNC WITH THE MANAGERS THAT ARE OUT ON THE GROUND WITH THEIR PARTNERS. SO THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR BETTER COMMUNICATION, BETTER ANSWERS COMING TO US QUICKER ON SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT WE’RE FACING.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. SECRETARY CATHY STEPP, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

CATHY STEPP:

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

FORMER DNR SECRETARY AND CURRENT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE WISCONSIN WILDLIFE FEDERATION, GEORGE MEYER, IS HERE WITH HIS TAKE ON THIS REORGANIZATION. THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

GEORGE MEYER:

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SECRETARY STEPP ASSURES THAT THIS PLAN WILL NOT WEAKEN ENVIRONMENTAL OR CONSERVATION STANDARDS. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

GEORGE MEYER:

WELL, THE STANDARDS AREN’T REALLY AT STAKE. THOSE ARE SET IN LAW. BUT THE STAFFING TO IMPLEMENT THE PROGRAMS AND TO MEET THE STANDARDS IS REALLY THE CHALLENGE FOR DNR THESE DAYS. THEY’RE TREMENDOUSLY UNDER-STAFFED, UNDERFUNDED. THEY’VE LOST BETWEEN 15% AND 20% OF THEIR EMPLOYEES AND JUST DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH STAFF TO GET THE WORK DONE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SO IF YOU WERE CURRENT DNR SECRETARY AND LOOKING AT THAT ISSUE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

GEORGE MEYER:

WELL, AND I HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE SECRETARY AND HER STAFF ON THIS. ONE OF THE MAJOR CONCERNS MANY OF US HAVE AND THE PUBLIC HAS IS WATER QUALITY IN OUR LAKES AND STREAMS, OUR DRINKING WATER. AND, FOR INSTANCE, THE PROGRAMS, YOU KNOW, FOR MUNICIPALITIES AND INDUSTRY TO DISCHARGE THEIR PERMITS AND THE CONTAMINATED RUNOFFS FROM AGRICULTURE AND CITIES INTO THE WATERWAYS, THE PERMIT FEES HAVEN’T BEEN INCREASED FOR OVER 20 YEARS. SO THERE’S NO FUNDING TO HIRE THE STAFF TO GET THE JOB DONE. YOU KNOW, THE REORGANIZATION DOES HAVE SOME GOOD POINTS THAT I’VE SEEN IN IT SO FAR. THERE’S MANY THINGS THAT STILL NEED SOME DETAILS. BUT, YOU KNOW, IT’S REARRANGING THE CHAIRS ON THE DECK. THE PROBLEM IS THEY DON’T HAVE ENOUGH CHAIRS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

IT’S NOT LIKELY, WOULD YOU THINK, THAT PERMIT FEES WOULD INCREASE?

GEORGE MEYER:

WELL, I THINK THE LEGISLATURE NEEDS TO REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT IT. AND SENATOR ROB COWLES AND OTHERS HAVE HAD THE LEGISLATIVE AUDIT BUREAU DO AN AUDIT AND SHOWED THE SHORT STAFFING AT DNR. IT’S HARD TO GET GENERAL TAX DOLLARS TO IMPLEMENT SOME OF THESE PROGRAMS. BUT FEES JUST HAVE TO GO UP AT CERTAIN TIMES TO MEET THE ADDITIONAL COST OF RUNNING PROGRAMS. THAT WILL BE A SOLUTION WE HOPE THEY CHOOSE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

SPECIFIC TO SOME OF THE PLANS IN THIS REALIGNMENT, THE PERMITTING OF CONCENTRATED ANIMAL FEEDING OPERATIONS, IS IT A CONCERN THAT PRIVATE CONSULTANTS WILL WRITE UP THESE PERMITS?

GEORGE MEYER:

I THINK THERE’S SOME INFORMATION OUT THERE THAT NEEDS CLARIFICATION. I THINK DNR’S STARTING TO DO THAT. THE UNDERSTANDING IS THE ACTUAL PERMITS WILL STILL BE WRITTEN BY DNR, BUT A LOT OF BACKGROUND WORK ON THE NUTRIENT PLANS, WHICH IS HOW MUCH MANURE TO SPREAD WHERE. THAT’S GOING TO BE DONE BY THE CONSULTANTS, BY CERTIFIED CONSULTANTS. AND AS LONG AS THEY’RE CERTIFIED AND UP TO STANDARDS, THAT CAN PROVIDE GOOD INPUT. BUT THE PERMITS STILL NEED TO BE WRITTEN BY DNR STAFF. IT’S OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT HAS BEEN CLARIFIED, THAT WILL BE DONE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

AS FOR THE SCIENCE BUREAU AT THE DNR AND SCIENTISTS REASSIGNED TO A NEW OFFICE WITHIN THE FISH WILDLIFE AND PARKS DIVISION, WHAT’S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

GEORGE MEYER:

THE PROBLEM IS WHERE THEY’RE BEING PUT RIGHT NOW SEEMS TO BE A DECENT IDEA. THE PROBLEM IS THERE ISN’T SUFFICIENT STAFFING TO DO THE RESEARCH THAT’S BEING NEEDED. WITH THE TREMENDOUS CHALLENGES FACING THIS STATE COMING UP IN THE NEXT 20, 30 YEARS, THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON FISH & WILDLIFE AND FLOODING AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. THE SPREAD OF CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE. WE NEED MORE RESEARCH, NOT LITTLE. HOPEFULLY AT SOME POINT IN TIME THAT’LL BE REVISED AND THEY’LL BE MORE RESEARCHERS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

WHAT WILL BE THE FIRST THING TO WATCH FOR IN THIS NEWLY ALIGNED DNR?

GEORGE MEYER:

I THINK THE WATER QUALITY PROGRAM IS OUR HIGHEST PRIORITY TO LOOK AT. WILL THEY IN FACT BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH IT? THE SECOND IS THE MANAGEMENT OF THE WILDLIFE AREAS. THERE’S SOME REAL MAJOR CHANGES GOING DOWN THERE. THERE NEEDS TO BE, WE THINK, MORE STAFFING IN SOME OF THOSE PROGRAMS TO MANAGE THE LANDS.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

ALL RIGHT. GEORGE MEYER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GEORGE MEYER:

GOOD TO BE HERE.

FREDERICA FREYBERG:

THAT’S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. NEXT WEEK THE MADISON PUBLIC SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT JOINS US TO DESCRIBE HER DISTRICT’S NEW CAREER OPPORTUNITIES PROGRAM. I’M FREDERICA FREYBERG. HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

ANNOUNCER:

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