Frederica Freyberg:

One of the experts who testified before the committee in opposition to lifting the ban on conversion therapy was Brian Michel. He’s the chief operating officer of Mental Health America of Wisconsin. He joins us now. Thanks very much for being here.

Brian Michel:

Thank you very much for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:

So we just heard from Mathew Shurka about his experience having undergone conversion therapy. In your belief, what is it about the therapy that causes such harm, even leading people to suicide?

Brian Michel:

Well, really what a lot of the bad and adverse effects come down to is, you know, making a young person who’s living these thoughts feel more rejected and isolated. And we do know that those feelings can lead to increased rates of depression, suicide attempt, suicide ideation. Young folks who are part of the LGBTQ community are already at higher risk of depression and self-harm, but when that is compared to those who feel highly rejected by their caregivers, by their families, that can result in nearly a nine times higher rate of attempting suicide, six times higher rate of depression, and about 3 1/2 more times likely of illegal drug use and HIV/AIDS.

Frederica Freyberg:

So who are the therapists who provide this conversion counseling if it is so overwhelmingly opposed by professionals?

Brian Michel:

So unfortunately, we don’t have a running list of those individuals and therapists who do engage in that therapy or in those types of interventions, despite how many professional and medical associations have disavowed and denounced this type of intervention, everything from American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Academy of Pediatrics, the School Counselor Association. But what parents and families who are seeking sufficient and helpful support can look for is that this type of intervention might be masked under different types of terms. So it’s also referred to as reparative therapy, or it could be regarded as — could be called sexuality counseling or sexual attraction fluidity. So really, those who are engaging in this practice, there’s even a way of avoiding the kind of flagging term of conversion therapy by simply describing it as something else when in effect, it is still maintaining the same purpose, that the social worker associations were denouncing of attempting to change someone’s orientation, really against their will or at a time when they’re too — they haven’t developed to the point to make those decisions.

Frederica Freyberg:

Given all of this, what was your reaction when the committee voted to lift the ban on conversion therapy?

Brian Michel:

You know, for those who attended that hearing and witnessed that hearing, it was hours of testimony against lifting this ban coming from all variety of sectors. Whether it was individuals in that community themselves, social workers, Trevor Project, national organizations, Mental Health America of Wisconsin, all coming out to say not only that this practice is harmful, but what the commission — what that committee did was also say that in creating this ethical boundary, the social worker associations and professional organizations overstepped their bounds, and really the committee was counting their argument saying this was a capricious and arbitrary use of that rulemaking authority. And that is why the committee said we are going to remove that rule. So they didn’t — the committee, during that hearing, expressly said several times, we’re not here to talk about whether or not conversion therapy is good or bad, despite all the evidence, overwhelming evidence showing that it’s harmful. Our statement really was, we don’t — you’re right, we don’t need to talk about that, because it is a harmful practice but these social workers and those professional associations have the knowledge and the expertise to state, this is an unethical practice, and if you are going to engage in this practice, you are going to be acting outside the bounds of your professional conduct.

Frederica Freyberg:

Well, we appreciate hearing from you, Brian Michel. Thanks very much.

Brian Michel:

Thank you for having me join you. Take care.