Firing Line

- Fighting the Taliban's war against women, this week on "Firing Line."

- The day that Kabul fell, it was the darkest days of my life.

- [Margaret] Scenes of desperation from Kabul two years ago.

With the U.S. withdrawal in its final stages, the Taliban gained control of Afghanistan, and broke its promises.

- I am particularly concerned by accounts of mounting human rights violations against the women and girls of Afghanistan who fear a return to the darkest days.

- [Margaret] Afghanistan is now the most repressive country in the world for women and girls, according to the U.N. School is banned after sixth grade.

Most work isn't allowed.

Even going to the gym and parks is forbidden.

- There was an education for everyone.

It wasn't only limited to boys or to certain families and certain ethnic groups.

And we had freedom of speech.

- [Margaret] Afghan tech entrepreneur, Roya Mahboob, knew and lived the promise of progress in Afghanistan.

In 2010, she became the country's first female tech CEO, then was named one of the world's most influential people by "Time Magazine."

- [Announcer] Team Afghanistan.

- [Margaret] Mahboob also created the Afghan Girls Robotics Team that competed around the world.

- These young people have a dream, big dreams.

If a young girl can build a ventilator, if a young girl can build a drone, because you give the equal access, anyone can do it.

- [Margaret] With no signs of the Taliban relenting.

[gunfire blasting] And tens of thousands of Afghans, who aided the U.S. mission in Afghanistan, left behind, what does Roya Mahboob say now?

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, the Fairweather Foundation, the Tepper Foundation, the Asness Family Foundation, the McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab, and by the Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and Damon Button.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. [bright upbeat music] - Roya Mahboob, welcome to "Firing Line."

- Thank you for having me here.

- It's been two years since the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban, but I wanna take you back to the first time that the Taliban took over Afghanistan in the 1990s when you were an eight year old girl.

What was it like living in Afghanistan in the 1990s?

- I mean, at that time, obviously, the situation was different.

And I just remember the day that the Taliban took over the city.

They came to all the houses and they collected the TVs and books.

And from the window of my house, I just see that they turn everything in the fire.

And I see the ideas, the freedom is turned to ash.

And it made me angry.

But then we left Afghanistan.

- You left with your family in 1996- - Yes, my family left.

- And you went to Iran.

Tell me about what happened with your baby sister that led your family to decide to flee to Iran.

- My youngest sister was only eight months and my brothers and my father were not in the city.

So they went for work.

And my mother was not allowed to take the baby to doctors because there was not any male guardian and the Taliban wouldn't allow it.

And that night, my mom had to spend the night with my sister, I mean, she knows that she cannot do anything to save her.

And the next morning, we lost her.

And I think that's always remained with me.

Just because we were women, we couldn't save her.

So after that, my parents decided to leave and go to Iran.

- You spent the next several years growing up in Iran and you returned to Afghanistan in 2003.

After the U.S. led invasion toppled the Taliban regime, you described those years and the years that followed as golden years for Afghanistan.

Why were they the golden years?

- Well, in the context of the story of Afghanistan, that was the only era that democracy flourished.

There was an education for everyone.

It wasn't only limited to boys or to certain families and certain ethnic groups.

And we had freedom of speech.

And you know, I wanna tell my stories.

When we returned back to Afghanistan in 2003, there was an internet cafe that was opened up in Herat.

And, you know, people talk about this magic box that connected you to the people and to the outside world and you can find any information you want.

And I insisted to go to that internet cafe.

And the first time I saw this magic box.

And I think at that moment, I decided to make up my mind that technology would be the center of my career.

There was so many opportunities at the time and if you were smart and you wanted to take that advantage, you could grow.

And with that amazing support that we got from the U.S., the United States, and your allies, the door of opportunity was opened up not only for me but for millions of the women and children in Afghanistan.

- You earned a computer science degree from Herat University.

You became Afghanistan's first female tech CEO, where you had to manage many male Afghan colleagues who were older than you.

Could you observe attitudes of Afghan men changing and adopting to the new reality of women being empowered in the workforce in Afghanistan?

- I think being a tech female CEO anywhere in part of the world, you will face some challenges, but working in Afghanistan was more challenge and had more obstacles.

But those obstacle and challenges made me who I am today.

In many cases they, at the beginning, they feel that they should not pay you equal as the your male colleagues.

They don't take you serious an engineer.

At my time, I was only one of a few women who worked in tech.

And it's difficult when you will be one of a few because they are trying to take you down because they don't like the changes, because society is not ready for that change.

When you want to bring the change in a society, you have to create more role models.

And when we started Digital Citizen Fund, I think it was the start of seeing the changes because we help thousands of the women learn about technology.

- Tell me about Digital Citizen Fund.

- Digital Citizen Fund is a nonprofit organization that I started when I left Afghanistan with a goal that technology is an accessible option for everyone, but especially for women in conservative societies.

And the idea was that these young woman, they learn about basic things about the computer, like I learned, like teaching them about social media, coding, and financial literacy, and as well robotics.

And we helped 17,000 of the girls from our program.

We built 13 technology centers, 11 in public high schools, and two individual STEM innovation centers in Kabul and Herat.

We also helped hundreds of these women to start their own startups.

The young generation of Afghanistan has always given me hope because they were resilient, they were courageous, and they were determined to somehow be part of their communities.

They were very active.

If you go to every community, you see that these young people have big dreams.

Talking with my younger students, they're talking to how to go to Mars and how to, I mean, becoming the next president, they want to be minister, all of them had big ambitions.

- You launched the Afghan Girls Robotics Team in 2017, which competes in robotic competitions around the world.

What message did it send to create this group of women to compete nationally?

- We wanted to send the message that women in Afghanistan can do what any women can do in any part of the world.

And when First Global contacted me to build this Afghan Dreamers, I said, "I'm not sure if I can find the teenagers with the age groups in Afghanistan because robotics is very new."

And they told me either find the team or build a team.

I decided to build a team.

And yeah, we took an exam and we selected 60 for the first competition.

And when they won the silver medal and they returned back, the community was divided.

Some were very conservative and they were not happy the girls were traveling without a male guardian and were not happy that we took the girls out, because the girls gave handshakes and these pictures come out.

So they were very angry.

But then other groups of the Herat community were very supportive.

They came in actually with some of the mullahs to the airport to just show that they are supporting this group and they support innovation, they support creativity.

And at that moment, as I say, there is a light in the darkness.

And, you know, their determination and hope changed the Afghan community.

And it was a victory for us.

- What has happened with the Afghan National Girls Robotics Team since the fall of Kabul and the takeover by the Taliban in 2021?

- A group of them were in Kabul and they were competing.

It was in the middle of the competition for the School of Robots that the Kabul fell.

And we didn't know what to do.

And thanks to the Qatari government at the time, we could evacuate them and relocated them to Qatar.

And you know, we are very proud, because this year we had 18 students who where accepted at universities, most was universities in the United States, UK, and Canada, they got full funding scholarships, and we were really proud of them.

- I wanna talk more about what's happened to women and girls in Afghanistan since the fall of Kabul.

But first I wanna ask you about your own experience during the evacuation.

How was your family's experience?

- I mean, the day that Kabul fell, it was the darkest days of my life and we just failed to protect the freedom and democracy that for 20 years changed our lives.

We took it for granted but we couldn't protect it and fight for it.

So that day I was realizing that.

And it was hard to see that the younger generation were not gonna have the same freedom that I had and many of my generation and same opportunities that we had.

But at that point, it was my darkest time, and I was just in shock, like many others, when we heard that President Ghani escaped.

I just couldn't believe it because I always admired him and his courage.

And we felt that all of his speeches is true.

We thought at the time it's true and he's the leader who's gonna protect the country.

- [Margaret] Did you feel betrayed by him?

- We feel betrayed by him and many other politicians at the time.

We felt .

.

.

It was horrible.

It was disheartening to see it.

He left before anyone else left.

At the same time, my team and my parents were in the airport and the airport was chaos, because after his escape, flights couldn't happen.

And I had 10 young girls in an apartment and everybody knows that they are Robotics Team members and I didn't know how to have a protection for them.

I'm with my old parents that they were there.

Only my father was the only man, the rest were female.

So .

.

.

- How did they evacuate?

How did they escape?

- Qatari government at the time, they are the only one who respond to our text.

And they evacuated the team.

But, you know, we have thousands of students, we had thousands of employees.

We did as much as we could but obviously it wasn't feasible to take everyone out of the country.

- How many of your employees and students remain in Afghanistan now?

- Thousands of our students are still in Afghanistan.

We couldn't do, unfortunately, anything for them.

- Amnesty International describes, quote, "Widespread and systemic subjugation of girls and women, including restrictions on education, work, and movement.

There are allegations of torture and imprisonment and forced marriage for women."

How has life changed for women in Afghanistan in the past two years?

- Life's completely changed.

Millions of them went to the university and the schools and they had education, they had dreams of a better future.

All of them gone.

Since the Taliban took over the country, they systematically dismissed all institution that was set up to support women.

The Ministry of Women's Affairs was canceled.

The Human Rights Commission was canceled.

All the shelters and organizations who support for women rights and helping the women empowerment and gender-based violence, they're all gone.

And today, still after two years, the schools all remain closed.

Women cannot travel without male guardians.

And based on the report of the U.N., nine out of 10, they don't have enough food.

All this is happening.

And the Taliban aren't noticing that being a leader doesn't just mean to force people, but also taking care of the well-being of their citizens.

But I have to say that despite of all of these challenges, Afghan women, Afghan girls have shown remarkable resilience in the face of adversity.

We see these young women, when they get arrested, get tortured, not even have the family support, they still go to the street and protest it.

They still say no.

- According to the U.N., Afghanistan has become the most repressive country in the world for women and girls.

What are the long-term effects on the next generation of Afghan girls or these policies?

- I think that what's happening is not only physical harm, but also the- - Psychological damage - Psychological damage as well.

And it affects the children because of the mom who is not happy and depressed will affect how the child is raised.

And it's not only the individual woman, but also impacts the nation in whole.

The poverty level is gonna go up and you're never gonna have a peaceful society if you ignore half of the population and minorities.

The Taliban knows that they can't have a prosperous society and driving the economy if they are ignoring half of the population, but also create more restriction for minorities.

It's just not gonna work.

- You have training centers in Herat and Kabul that continue to train students.

How do they continue to operate and what is their current status?

- Unfortunately, most of our centers were closed.

- Closed by the Taliban?

- Yes, closed by the Taliban.

And because of the rule that the age of the girls, after 15, they're not allowed to continue their education.

And recently we were able to open and support the girls education in Kabul, but they should be under the age of 15.

We have more than 350 students there.

But we also started to support communities and the underground education and initiative that the women lead.

And we have thousands of students currently studying.

And as I mentioned, the women, young women in Afghanistan are resilient.

They're gonna find a way to educate themselves.

And yes, I mean this is not gonna be a solution for millions, but I have to assure you that this young generation are different than the generation of 1996.

So the Taliban are facing with a different mindset.

- Did you just say you have hundreds, maybe thousands of women studying underground?

- We have around 1,050 students that currently are studying an underground education and they are all lead by- - How do they do that?

- So they have usually their homes and they're bring 10 to 20 students there and then they train them, about the maths, and science, and then you're paying the teachers.

So that's how the community supports it right now.

Usually it's happening with the community that the female and families wants that education for their girls.

And it's growing very fast.

It's not only us, but other organizations are also supporting- - So you're saying the Taliban's best effort to return women to the home and to not being educated are not fully successful?

- No, it's not fully successful.

I mean this is happening and the Taliban already know that they cannot stop that.

And that is what I'm saying, that technology is a tool that we can, no oppressive regime can stop it.

- What roles are left for women in Afghan society?

- They can ask this question from the Taliban.

Oh, there is a role for women, being a good mother.

But they forgot to be a good mother, a mom needs security, peace of the mind, access to opportunities.

So they took everything from you and then they asked you to be a good mom and stay home.

And they also forgot that if the mom doesn't have a husband or father who will not be at home, how can she protect the children and feed the children?

So they forgot about this part because they don't wanna think about that.

There are thousands and a hundred thousands of women who are widows and they don't have any male to support them and they need these jobs to make money and support their children.

They didn't think about that.

- You met with John Kerry in Kabul, when he was Secretary of State, and he went on to cite you as a great Afghan success story.

Decades earlier in John Kerry's life, he was an anti-war activist.

In 1971, he was on this program and he made the case that the United States should withdraw from Vietnam.

Take a look.

- I think we can talk for hours about why we're there and what happened, but the question is now, should we get out and what is really at stake?

- [William] No, that's not the question.

- [John] The question is what is at stake?

- The question is what is at stake, exactly.

- Exactly, and what is at stake has intimately died.

If nothing is at stake, you get out.

And I have said that nothing is at stake.

- Kerry argued that Vietnam was no longer a vital U.S. interest.

And that's what President Biden argued, that Afghanistan was no longer a vital U.S. interest.

How do you respond to that argument?

- I think that 20 years of fighting terrorism and extremists and after many sacrifices of Americans and as well Afghans for having democracy, I think that fight was worth it.

And obviously, I hear President Biden that they are not there for building nations.

But we actually were a hope for many of the people around us when they see that we could talk our truth to the power.

And this has inspired so many of the generation and young people in those countries.

And I understand that it might not be a fight forever for Americans, but I think that they could withdraw responsibly.

So I can say that - The U.S. and Taliban officials have recently met for the first time since the fall of the government.

The Taliban said they discussed lifting sanctions and returning Afghan assets and the U.S. officials have voiced concerns over human rights, and pressed, supposedly, for the reversal of restrictions on women and girls.

Do you see the U.S. engaging in a dialogue about human rights at the Taliban as an encouraging development?

- I mean, many Afghans have different perspectives on this.

I would say that engaging with the Taliban in dialogue, it should be continued, but not meeting with the Afghan women's leadership and other people who disagree with the government, the political groups, I think is wrong.

I mean, it's good that you have meetings at the same time with the women in the same city, making sure that the Taliban understand that the world didn't forget about the women in Afghanistan.

- That the world hasn't forgotten about the women in Afghanistan.

- Yes, this again, gives them a message that they cannot ignore us and they cannot put us in the oppressive time that there was 1996.

- What is the sentiment amongst Afghans who cooperated with the United States, who then saw the United States leave?

What is the feeling about the United States to those who are left in Afghanistan?

- I mean, many of them are disappointed, especially those who worked for the U.S. government.

I think it's a moral obligation for the United States and their allies to take the people who worked for them out and give them a chance to leave because it's the best interest of the United States as well, because many of these people who work for the government, for the U.S. government in the past, they have skills, they have knowledge.

They can contribute to this society.

And I think that is a moral obligation.

- You had an extraordinary experience of having a former president of the United States paint a portrait of you.

President George W. Bush painted a portrait of you which he then featured in his book, "Out of Many, One."

And he said that his portrait of you is among his favorite paintings.

What was that experience like for you?

- You know, my life has been changed because of President Bush's decision to come to Afghanistan.

Lots of the schools have been built, roads built, hospitals built, and we had an amazing time and this has happened because of the one person who had the courage to come all the way and says no to darkness and bring the light.

And so for me, always I wanted to meet President Bush and I had this honor to meet with him.

I have lot of respect for Mrs. Bush and President Bush for everything that they have done, especially for women empowerment.

They have done a lot.

- He painted you wearing a headscarf?

- Yes.

I wear usually a scarf because it's part of my culture.

But I don't know, since the Taliban took over the power, and I feel a little bit .

.

.

But I think that I like the scarf because I just want to show that I'm Afghan and showing that this is a beautiful thing that I have from my culture.

- On the one year anniversary of the fall of Kabul, you tweeted, "Remember, caution and acceptance never change the world.

If we do not dare to lead the way and dream of something different, nothing will ever change.

Freedom demands sacrifice, bravery, and persistence."

Another year has passed since that tweet.

How will you ensure the world does not sink in to caution and acceptance?

- Because we'll not allow it.

We will be amplifying the voice of the women.

And I think, as I mentioned, it's gonna take time.

It's a challenging fight.

It's a challenging road.

But it's worth it.

It's worth it, you know?

I had a chance to live in freedom and democracy and it changed my life.

I live in New York and I started my business.

I'm doing robotics and many other things.

But I think that those generations who are left behind in Afghanistan, they are worth it, too.

It's worth thinking about them and giving the things that I have today here, making sure that they have it too.

Another thing I think that extremism and terrorism are diseases, like diseases.

They're like a cancer that is caused by poor education, poverty, and not having a government to hear your voices and you're living in a world that there is no opportunity.

Looking at the Taliban soldiers, they never had these chances.

They lived in a villages, they lived in the dark.

They've never had access to information outside their world and they only hear what they have told.

So think that we need also to think about how we will create a solution for Afghan people inside of the country.

We're talking about millions of young generation, that they are very vulnerable.

If we forget about them, there is a huge risk that they can become brainwashed.

So that's why we should not leave them in darkness and making sure that the well-being of citizens and having access to information are very important and we have to do that to prevent the radicalization of this young generation.

- Roya Mahboob, thank you for joining me on "Firing Line."

- Thank you for having me.

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, the Fairweather Foundation, the Tepper Foundation, the Asness Family Foundation, the McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab, and by the Rosalind P. Walter Foundation and Damon Button.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. [bright upbeat music] [bright upbeat music continues] [gentle music] - [Announcer] You're watching PBS.