Firing Line

- Feeding the hungry in the wake of war and disaster, this week on "Firing Line."

They go in when disaster strikes.

Natural disasters, like the hurricane that devastated North Carolina, or man-made ones, like the wars in Ukraine and in Gaza.

- We go to hurricanes and earthquakes.

It's dangerous.

Obviously, war zones is a next level.

- [Margaret] Jose Andres was already an award-winning chef when he founded World Central Kitchen in 2010 after the earthquake in Haiti.

Before leaving office, President Biden awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Last year, the organization suffered its own disaster when seven of its workers were killed by an Israeli airstrike while delivering food relief in Gaza.

- Zomi Frankcom.

Our beloved Zomi.

She was the living, breathing, smiling heart of everything we did in the field.

- [Margaret] Andres appeared on this program in 2019, and was critical of then-President Trump.

- My main issue with President Trump is I am an immigrant.

We have undocumented, more than 11 million, making America run.

The big lie is not recognizing that.

- [Margaret] With Donald Trump back in office, what does Jose Andres say now?

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by: Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Cliff and Laurel Asness, The Meadowlark Foundation, The Beth and Ravenel Curry Foundation, and by the following.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. - Jose Andres, welcome back to "Firing Line."

- So happy to be here with you again.

- Since you were last here in 2019 and we had the chance to chat, you have been very busy.

You have served more than 400 million meals to individuals in at least 20 countries.

You've received the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

You've been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

You've written another book.

You're starting a new television show.

You have been busy.

- (sighs) I guess, you know, life, you only live once, right?

And when the opportunity shows up, you take it.

The book, I had to write that book.

It was not a book.

It was a letter to my daughters.

I think everybody has to write the book of the stories that you want to tell your loved ones.

- So the book is called "Change The Recipe," and it is a series of vignettes about lessons that you have learned in life.

It begins in Spain.

Growing up with your parents, who were both nurses and loved to eat, how did they influence you, and how do you want to pass that on to your daughters?

- My mom was more the Monday through Friday cook.

I would say feeding the few, my three brothers and myself.

My father was more the weekend cook, family members and friends, cooking for more people, making the very big pot, the big paella pan.

Very early on, I learned to cook for the few and to cook for the many.

There were different moments, both important.

Somehow I've been bringing these lessons with me through life.

- Did their jobs as nurses, or as people who cared for people, influence your humanitarianism, ultimately, as a chef?

- Totally, something I realized much later.

Obviously this was very influential in my willingness to say, "It doesn't matter what profession you're in.

You don't need to be a nurse.

You don't need to be a doctor.

You can always find a way to make your profession be put at the service of the many."

- One of the themes that has recurred throughout this book continues to be the reflection that too often the government's response is inefficient, ineffective, and too slow.

- We shouldn't be just criticizing government- - No, but so how- - We should be next to the government to help government to become better.

- And you said that to me last time.

Have we made any progress?

- No.

- Why?

- Not as much as we should.

Why?

Because very often, not only in America, but around the world, issues is not about improving policy, but issues becomes about politics.

We need politicians in this two-party system we have in America, that they put policy first.

And policy means we're going to come with the best solutions that both parties can agree.

Putting aside what they don't disagree and trying to find a middle ground, and where then you realize that good policy is smart politics.

But when politics is the only thing, it means, "I'm going to go against anything you support."

- So you think it's too partisan, and hyper-partisan, frozen on both sides, that no one party can do it.

It has to be done together, and nothing can get done together, so it doesn't happen.

- And frustrates everybody.

Secretary Kennedy wants to make America healthy again.

- There's part of the Make America Healthy agenda that you agree with.

- I don't agree with the vaccines.

- But you agree with some of it.

- But the simple idea is no American should disagree with.

To tell America that we need to be eating better and healthier and more fresh fruits and vegetables, that's a smart policy.

That's things that everybody should be, together, moving those issues forward on behalf of all Americans.

- The Trump administration has recently made a decision that it will allow states to bar recipients of SNAP benefits, which helps address food insecurity in this country, from using money received from the SNAP benefits to pay for soda drinks.

Is that a good idea?

- This is not a new idea.

This is an idea that has been already pushed in the past by Democrats too.

To have a great good complete diet, that's something every Republican and every Democrat should be supporting.

What we cannot be supporting is let's defund, let's cut SNAP completely.

This is not going to be making America great.

This is going to be putting a lot of families, especially also in many red states who are some of the poorer states in the country, even in a bigger hole.

Therefore, what we need to do is make sure that SNAP becomes a better way to end hunger and poverty in America.

That's what Republicans should be doing now that they have control of the Senate and Congress and the White House.

But what we can't do is just end SNAP.

This will put America in a worse position.

- So what is your message to lawmakers, Republican lawmakers right now who are looking at cutting $230 billion- - Billion dollars.

- Across USDA programs, which will likely- - This is what we should be doing.

Let's make sure we don't cut.

I will even say let's make sure we even add.

Let's make sure that those American families that cannot put food on the table are able to feed themselves.

Let's make sure that we give dignity to these poor Americans.

Dignity to go to a local farmer's market where they can find fresh fruits and vegetables.

Let's make sure that in blue and red states alike, actually we make sure that no family forever, ever again, will be hungry or poor again.

That's why we need strong SNAPs that needs to be improved, not cut down.

- Mm-hm.

Mm-hm.

You write about food fighters in your book, fighters who are on the front lines.

I mean, you have expanded your humanitarian outreach to war zones in the last five years.

You have been in Ukraine.

You've been in Gaza.

You've been in Israel.

How is sending food fighters to these war zones fundamentally different than treating a disaster area?

- Well, we need to understand that when we go to hurricanes and earthquakes, it's dangerous.

Obviously, war zones is a next level.

I arrived myself to Kiev even when the Russian troops were north of Kiev.

I could see the explosions and the fighting happening not too far away from the hotel I was staying in the early days.

But we had to.

We had to because there was no other option.

I'm very proud of the work the World Central Kitchen has done.

Three years plus later, we are still there.

We've done over 300 million meals.

We've done generators.

We've done food bags in substitution of markets closing down.

We try to put the economy up and running in the process of a war.

And it worked and we became the biggest food and water force in the first year especially.

- You've met President Zelenskyy.

You have said that he will be seen as a figure like Winston Churchill one day.

What did you learn about leadership from him?

- When the Russian troops were not too far away from what it seems the overtaking of Kiev, and there's this very famous video in the middle of the night in the heart of Kiev surrounded by his team members.

(Volodymyr speaks in foreign language) - And he said, "I'm here and I'm not going anywhere."

That's a leader.

Everybody said he was a comedian.

(scoffs) He was a man that said, "I'm next to my people and next to my country.

And I'm not leaving my country."

And that tells you everything about leadership.

And I think President Zelenskyy will be a leader for the ages.

- For the people who you fed in Ukraine, what would be the consequence of the United States abandoning Ukraine and the peace process?

- America cannot, cannot, move aside from Ukrainians for a lot of reasons.

Because they are a democracy.

America is a democracy, Russia is not.

Ukrainians are fighting for liberty and freedom.

America has been the country that has been fighting for liberty and freedom for centuries.

That is why America cannot be forgetting Ukraine.

And I do believe that that's why America will, even with President Trump, has to be on the side of Ukraine.

- You don't believe that Trump will abandon the peace process?

- I think that President Trump must change course.

And I support his willingness to achieve peace, but he has to achieve peace on the side of Ukraine.

We cannot let the aggressor, the bully, be the winner.

Bullies cannot win.

That's why I hope that America, President Trump, will achieve peace between Ukraine and Russia.

But I hope they will achieve peace sitting on the same side of the table next to the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy.

- Do you really believe that will happen?

- The history of humanity has shown that more difficult things could.

And I believe President Trump could change his wisdom and his words, achieving peace on the side of Ukraine.

That's what I hope will happen.

Good leaders show that they are not stubborn.

Good leaders show that sometimes they can change when maybe their early decisions were not the right ones.

- You're very optimistic and I hope that you're right.

I was interested in the book when you write about the importance of being urgent and smart.

And you write about the experience of the humanitarian community in Haiti, how so much food came into Haiti that it ended up having a negative effect on local farmers and local businesses.

Talk about that insight.

- I would say over the last two, three, four years, we had a lot of Haitian families in the southern border.

Let's go back now to 2010.

I was very proud of the response of America into Haiti because it was the right thing for America to do.

- After that devastating earthquake.

- Thousands of people died.

Hundreds of thousands lost their homes.

And what it is still today a country in chaos and the poorest country in the northern hemisphere.

A lot of food was sent for free.

As an American, I was proud.

But we were doing good.

We were not doing the smart good.

Why?

Because we gave so much food for free that a country that relies on farming and is a rural country, per se, because the food was being shipped for free, we put those farmers out of business.

- The local Haitian farmers went out of business because of the international- - Now we have Haitians 10, 15 years later in the border- - Of the United States.

- Of the United States.

In a way, and I've been there and I have been there feeding them and I know, in a way, we put them as refugees of their own country trying to come to a country they can feed their families 15 years later because, actually, in the process of doing good, we create poverty within a poor country.

And those families, the only option they had is leave their country, trying to find a better place.

15 years later, the same food that was sent to feed poor Haitians was the same reason many Haitians had to leave Haiti because they were too poor.

- And you learned those lessons and applied them in Puerto Rico.

- Well, we keep applying that everywhere, but only because it's a smart thing to do.

Buy local.

In the process, you're helping the local economy to start moving forward as you are delivering the aid.

But this goes beyond food.

If we are, let's say, in a city that they've been destroyed by a fire or by a tornado or by hurricane, wouldn't it be smart, like, you partner and they start channeling money through local restaurants, through local food trucks, through local catering companies, through local food companies, that that money channels through the local economy?

All of a sudden you create thousands of jobs, not by people that come from overseas or other states, but locally.

That should be the way forward in emergencies in America and around the world.

Americans are the most giving country in the history of mankind.

But I think America wants not to throw money at the problem but invest in the solutions.

Doing good is okay, but today in the 21st century, we must do smart good.

We need to give our philanthropy dollars in the same way we invest our money for profit.

Needs to be a return on the investment.

How do you know it's a return on investment?

We can give money forever for free, but if everybody is always hungry, we're not doing a good job.

How can we give our money that actually people are lift up from poverty, are lift up from hunger in America and overseas?

That's why everybody should put a bigger thought in how we give our philanthropy dollars.

- In 1999, on the original program that was hosted by William F. Buckley Jr., "Firing Line," he hosted the former Secretary of the Treasury, whose name was Bill Simon.

And they had a conversation about philanthropy.

They were reviewing a proposal from George W. Bush that we should use federal dollars to help fund private charities.

- I think it would hurt charitable giving because people would say, "Well, if government's giving to it, I'm not going to.

If government's going to run it, we know how inefficient it's going to be, and so I shouldn't do it."

And so we ought to keep government out of that area.

They're in enough areas.

Let them mind their own business for once.

- What do you think?

- World Central Kitchen is like a start-up.

We are not claiming we are good at everything.

We are only saying that we believe we are the best at emergencies.

What FEMA does, we believe we can do better.

We can bring food and water quick and faster using local resources.

So what I'm only saying is that at the times that there may be NGOs that they're doing a very good job in very specific areas, I do believe the government should be there to support those NGOs.

So anything on those lines, adapting to the 21st century is something obviously I will support exploring.

- We have seen the Trump administration come in with Elon Musk as Trump's deputy slashing the budget to USAID, which provides funding and food assistance to countries around the world.

Have you begun to see the impact of these cuts in your humanitarian work abroad?

- Yeah, the hunger in countries like Sudan is of a magnitude we are not even able to be aware, and many other countries.

- Because of USAID cuts.

- Yeah, totally.

And indirectly understanding that the cuttings of the USAID aid directly is going to negatively impact farmers in America that sell that food to USAID that USAID ships abroad.

So this is already going to have a huge negative impact not only overseas where hunger levels increasing, but in American farming economies.

And I don't believe that's smart.

- The book concludes with your eulogy at the Washington National Cathedral after seven World Central Kitchen workers were killed by Israeli airstrikes.

- The seven souls we mourn today were there so that hungry people could eat.

- This happened almost exactly a year ago.

- [Jose] Over a year ago.

- Israel acknowledged their mistake in targeting World Central Kitchen convoy, actually fired two of the officers that were involved, reprimanded two others.

More than a year after those deaths and that tragedy, are you satisfied with the accountability for the deaths of those volunteers?

- Obviously, I lost good friends.

Forever I will feel guilty because I founded World Central Kitchen, because I thought it was the right thing for us to be in Gaza.

But nobody is pushed to be there.

Those are people that made the decision to be next to the voiceless and next to the poor and the hungry.

And their sacrifice forever, I know I will remember and bring it close to my heart.

And this has been a hard year for the families.

Me personally, it's been a hard year for obvious reasons.

I take and I feel responsible for what happened.

Still, we are asking for more answers from IDF and the Israeli government, but it goes down to the same.

World Central Kitchen was on the first day in the kibbutz in the south of Israel, next to Israeli chefs and many volunteers.

At the same time, we were in the north, also helping the families that they were also being displaced by what began happening with Hezbollah and Lebanon in the north.

So World Central Kitchen was in Israel from day one.

- Yeah.

- At the same time, from day one, we were in Gaza.

Why?

Because it was the right thing to do.

Many people say, "Why are you in Israel?"

Other people say, "Why are you in Gaza?"

Because we believe in longer tables.

We are next to the people that need our help.

And I will say any country is attacked by a terrorist sure has the right to defend themselves.

What happened by Hamas was despicable.

This is obvious.

At the same time, what's happening to civilians, humanitarians, and press in Gaza, that's not right either.

It cannot be happening.

We need to be building longer tables.

We need to do a ceasefire.

We need to make sure the hostages are released.

We need to make sure that the men, the women, the children who has nothing to do with terrorism, which is the vast majority, are being fed.

Humanitarian aid must continue.

The bad deeds of the very few cannot be put on the shoulders of the many.

- Did losing workers in Gaza cause you to reflect on any of the criticisms that you received about the security and safety of some of the workers that were there?

- The only way we will be any safer is if we wouldn't be there.

But if we want to solve the problems of the world and we want to be next to the voiceless of the world, with that will always- - There are risks.

- Certain level of risk go alongside.

- You're a proud immigrant, and during the first Trump administration, you were extremely outspoken about President Trump's tone and rhetoric to immigrants to this county.

Now that Trump is back in office, there is a fellow Marylander, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who is an immigrant who was living in your home state of Maryland, who was married to a U.S. citizen, who was working legally in the United States, and who was deported back to El Salvador without due process, where he's being detained at a facility called the Center for Terrorism Confinement.

A federal judge has accused the Trump administration of, quote, "willful and intentional noncompliance" with court orders in the case.

How do you think about this current moment and how the Trump administration in its second term is approaching these sensitive issues of immigration?

- Well, I think it is something America should be proud is the rule of law.

It's understanding that we have laws that we all must follow.

A country like America must have due process.

Cannot be that people in American soil disappear in the middle of the night to a faraway country without knowing what they've did, without having an option to call a lawyer, without having an option to understand what really happened.

And mistakes will happen.

Therefore, I do believe that every person in America should have certain rights.

And I want to remind this to all Americans born, but when you become as an immigrant in America, they tell you to become American doesn't mean that just you go to vote every four years and express your voice through a vote.

But it means participating every single day in creating a better union, in creating a better America.

And that's what we all should be doing.

Agreeing, disagreeing respectfully with each other, but always trying to learn from each other.

- You say at the end of the book, we need everyone involved in democracy.

How should Americans be involved in democracy right now?

- You do it not by putting away those who doesn't think like you.

But trying to change your brain and trying to understand that those don't think like you doesn't mean they're your enemies but maybe people that bring a very smart way to see things, a different way to see things.

Things you can learn from, and hopefully things they will learn from you too.

And in the process, we create a better system.

We improve little by little the things that don't work.

America is far away from a perfect country, like every other country in the world.

If there is a perfect place where it's red or it's blue, please tell me because I would love to go.

But there is no perfection.

What it is, is people willing to work together to solve the challenges and issues we face to then come back every morning with hope, looking at the horizon with hope, knowing that beyond the horizon is always a better tomorrow.

We can do it together.

We should do it together.

We can do it, and we will.

We the people do it together.

- That sounded like a campaign speech.

(Jose chuckles) You'll never run for office?

- I'm about to be 56.

- Perfect time to join the Senate.

- I don't think I have enough patience.

- You're a little too young, actually, for the Senate.

- I don't think- - You're a little too young for the Senate.

- I have enough patience.

But I will be there next to Democrats and Republicans alike to give a little bit back to this country that has given me so much.

- Chef Jose Andres, thank you for returning to "Firing Line."

- Thank you for having me.

(bright music) - [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by: Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Cliff and Laurel Asness, The Meadowlark Foundation, The Beth and Ravenel Curry Foundation, and by the following.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. (bright music continues) (bright music continues) (bright music) (bright music) - [Announcer] You're watching PBS.