Firing Line

- A big city mayor in a time of mayhem this week on "Firing Line."

- [Crowd] Say her name!

Renee Good.

- [Margaret] The fatal shooting of a Minneapolis mother by an ICE officer has triggered protests around the country.

This week, we're in Chicago where President Trump deployed ICE and the National Guard last fall.

- Let me be clear, Donald Trump is using our service members as political props in his illegal effort to militarize our nation's cities.

- Trump posted that Chicago's Mayor, Brandon Johnson, "should be jailed for failing to protect ICE officers."

How effective can a mayor be when standing up against the federal government?

- I can tell you, it's not something that I, you know, could have imagined when I took on this responsibility that we would have to fend off the federal government.

- But Mayor Johnson, a former public school teacher, is also facing challenges from inside his city.

A low approval rating, a pension crisis, and opposition to his progressive agenda.

Let's talk about the budget here in Chicago.

(Brandon laughs) What does Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson say now?

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Pritzker Military Foundation, Cliff and Laurel Asness, and by the following.

- Mayor Brandon Johnson, welcome to "Firing Line."

- Hey, thanks for having me and happy New Year.

- Happy New Year.

Thank you for welcoming me to your city here in Chicago.

This week marked the 40th federal observation of Martin Luther King Jr.

Day.

President Trump has claimed recently that the civil rights movement has led to white people being, quote, "Very badly treated."

As Chicago's fourth Black mayor, how do you think about King's legacy in this country one year into Donald Trump's second term as President?

- Yeah, Dr.

King has a real special place for us here in Chicago.

You know, he came to the City of Chicago fighting for fair housing and public accommodations.

And you know, he said that, "If we can do it right in Chicago," and I'm paraphrasing, "we can do it anywhere in the world."

And you know, as I think about his legacy, it's quite upsetting, of course, as you can imagine, for the President of the United States of America to make such an assertion.

So first of all, he's wrong.

And I believe that our country is better because we have civil rights.

And as long as we continue to fight for the civil rights of every single individual, we can finally, you know, live out the true aspirations of these United States.

- In the wake of the recent ICE shootings and killings in this city and in Minneapolis, last week, the City of Chicago and the State of Illinois filed a lawsuit against the federal government, alleging that the Trump administration's immigration crackdown has violated the United States Constitution.

The lawsuit alleges that ICE agents have acted as occupiers rather than officers.

It charges Border Patrol and ICE agents of arresting people without warrants, using chemical weapons against law-abiding citizens, and rampaging through Chicago lawlessly, stopping and arresting residents.

How effective can a mayor be when standing up against the federal government?

- Hm.

Well, first, I can tell you, it's not something that I, you know, could have imagined when I took on this responsibility that we would have to, as mayors, that we would have to fend off the federal government from constitutional overreach.

You know, when the President was attempting to send federal troops, the National Guard from other states to the City of Chicago, we effectively filed a lawsuit, and the United States Supreme Court agreed with our claim.

- Ruled in your favor.

- Exactly, and so when you ask the question of how effective we can be, every single lawsuit that this president has waged against my administration, we've defeated, and every lawsuit that we have put forward, we have prevailed.

This is not the way in which, of course, I would prefer to spend my time as mayor, having to defend our city to protect our democracy and the humanity for people across this country, but the people of the city, they entrusted me to do both, to deal with the structural damage that I inherited and many challenges that cities face across this country, whether it's education, safety, and transportation and infrastructure, while at the same time defending our values and standing up to the tyranny that's coming from the federal government.

- You and other mayors have signed an order prohibiting the use of city properties for federal immigration efforts.

What, practically, does that mean if ICE ignores that order?

- Yeah, you know, look, I put forth in the executive order, surrounding this idea of ensuring that we can protect all of Chicago, and so we've characterized them as ICE-free zones, essentially.

And so the federal government cannot set up shop in public space to carry out their terror, essentially.

And as to your point, other cities have embraced that as well.

You know, in terms of its effectiveness, this is why the courts are so critical in this moment.

Look, my job as, you know, the chief executive is to enforce the law.

You know, the federal government, ICE agents, and Border Patrol, they have indiscriminately released tear gas on people, right?

We have to have some measures of accountability.

They have targeted individuals that have accents, right?

They've arrested United States citizens, right?

So this lawsuit is so critical in this moment because the federal overreach that we are experiencing right now is really detrimental to working people.

- If ICE sets up on city property, would police stop them?

How far are you willing to go?

- We have to use every tool that's available to us that's necessary in order to protect, you know, people.

And so if they are in violation, you know, we will use the courts as a means to hold people accountable.

- That's very slow, though.

- It could be, but what we have seen, at least in this iteration of our government, faster turnaround on rulings that have tremendous consequences of the future of our democracy.

Look, these are some really unprecedented times, right?

I remember a time as a former social studies teacher teaching middle school right here in our public schools in Chicago, where you had presidents that declared war on poverty.

You know, Dr.

King made it a part of a national movement, right?

And now you have a president who has declared war on poor people and working people.

That's why standing up in this moment is so critical.

Now, look, it's gonna take more than just executive authority, though I'm using that as a means to protect Chicago and to use it as an example for the rest of the country.

But people have to rise up in this moment.

We have to provide real check and balance, especially as it relates to our Congress that has essentially stood still and watched this president trample all over the rights of our people.

And so, yes, time is of the essence, but it doesn't deter me from using every single tool that I have access to, to protect the people of this city.

- Is one of those tools the police if ICE sets up on city property, which you have forbade them from doing?

- Well, look, our local law enforcement has a critical role in protecting our residents.

As far as what their powers look like as it relates to the federal government, I will tell you this, that it's not just me here in Chicago.

There are municipalities around this country that are exploring and looking into, what else can we do to ensure that we protect working people, but that we also hold the federal government accountable, and particularly this administration.

- Have you talked to the Chief of the Chicago Police Department about the role the police would play in terms of protecting Chicago's residents from ICE?

- Yeah, well, the first thing that they do is, as a welcoming city, our local law enforcement does not participate in civil immigration enforcement, right?

We know from evidence that that actually makes us less safe.

- But then what happens if ICE comes and sets up on city property?

What are you gonna do to defend that?

- Well, again, the first thing is, we have this executive order.

We have this lawsuit.

That's what we have to use.

We have to use the means that are in front of us.

And again, as far as, you know, what the- - But when the rubber hits the road, what gives?

- Well, I think what gives in this moment- - You're gonna wait for the wheels of justice that grind slowly to defend Chicago citizens or do the police step in at that point?

- Well, look, if the federal government extends or attempts to extend its authority beyond the measures that we have put in place here, we're gonna use every single tool that's available to us.

Here's the part that I want people to know that's most important.

We have a federal government that is working outside of the bounds of the Constitution.

We have to use all of the means that are available to us, and it's necessary to use all of the means that are available to us to hold this president accountable because right now, you don't see that.

And that's why it's incumbent upon all of us to do everything in our power to not just protect our democracy but protect humanity.

- Have you spoken to the Police Chief about how you'll use the police to protect Chicago citizens from ICE?

- Well, here's one way in which we've already demonstrated how we've protected the residents.

- No, but I'm just curious if you have spoken to the Police Chief about it.

- Well, I talk to my superintendent every single day, and it's not just about, you know, protecting residents against ICE.

It's about driving violence down in the City of Chicago.

- As the country is watching the chaos unfold just a few hundred miles northwest of your city in Minneapolis and Saint Paul, ICE shootings, federal raids, protests, talk of the Insurrection Act being deployed against the city, what is your concrete plan to prevent Chicago from becoming the next flashpoint?

- Hm, yeah.

Well, first of all, I spoke with Mayor Frey and, you know, reached out to the Attorney General as well, got a message to the Governor to express our solidarity with the people of the entire State of Minnesota, and really, you know, residents across this country.

I'm in regular conversations with mayors.

At the end of this month, I'll be in DC for the US Conference of Mayors where these issues will continue to come up.

We know that this president is looking to provocate, you know, active participants of our government, which they have the fundamental right to be able to protest this government when it gets out of control.

You know, this time last year, of course, the country was preparing for another Trump administration.

And I believe that it was predictable that this type of chaos would ensue.

This president is determined to provoke chaos.

You know, when we think about the last contribution of Reverend Dr.

Martin Luther King Jr., "Community or chaos?"

Now we're focusing it on community.

And that's why I'm saying that that central point is so valuable.

Even in the midst of chaos, if we can focus our energy around the needs of everyday people, that becomes our focus, that remains our focus, and I believe that it has a better chance at preventing the type of chaos that this president is determined to unleash.

- You just said, Mr.

Mayor, that we were preparing a year ago for Trump's second administration, and that we could anticipate what was gonna happen.

So I've noticed that some of the critics on your left have said that the city was inadequately prepared for the chaos the Trump administration has raised.

Alderwoman Jeanette Taylor said that in an anticipation of President Trump, quote, "We should have had a plan for what was going to happen on every level of government, so that in schools and park districts, ICE is not able to come in and do some of the S they are doing."

Is she right?

- Well, look, the President's, you know, overreach of the Constitution is something that I do believe that people were conscious about.

And, you know, as far as- - Were you guys prepared?

- Well, I mean, I think it's evident and clear that our fight back has demonstrated that we have been effective, right?

- You've been effective in the courts.

- We have been.

Our executive orders, I mean, look, it's no secret that this president wanted to send troops into our city.

He wasn't able to do that, right?

Now, could we prepare for everything that is coming from this administration?

I don't think anybody can.

In fact, his own administration can't prepare for the things that he is, you know, trying to implement.

So this assertion or assumption that you can over-prepare for evil, I think that that's a bit unreasonable.

What I'm simply saying is, though we knew that this president was clear about his agenda, that he was gonna focus his interest around the ultra wealthy, the big corporations, and then ensue chaos.

And we've done, I believe, a strong job at bringing people together and defending the values of this city.

- You and President Trump have a contentious relationship, to put it lightly.

- To say the least, yeah.

- To put it lightly.

- Yeah.

- He said that you and Governor Pritzker should, quote, "Be in jail for failing to protect ICE officers."

President Trump threatened to cut off federal funding for schools and sanctuary cities like Chicago, which you called "terrorism."

Zohran Mamdani, the new mayor in New York City, as you know, had similarly harsh language for President Trump and vice versa, and yet they met in the Oval Office, hugged it out, so to speak.

You know, do you and the President just need to hash it out together?

- (laughs) You know, look, the President has done more harm to the people of this country than he has done anything to me personally, right?

As far as a conversation with the President, I'm always open and available to talk to anyone who's committed to ensuring that the City of Chicago continues its direction of being- - Would you like to go to the White House?

- the safest, most affordable big city in America.

- Would you like to go to the White House and talk to President Trump?

- I mean, I believe he should come to Chicago.

I think he'll have a better time here.

- Well, even Zohran Mamdani had to go to the White House- - Well, I mean, look- - the Oval Office to meet with President Trump.

- I'm open to go to the White House.

I'm happy, you know, if he wants to get a message to me to sit down and have a conversation.

- What would you talk to him about?

- Building the safest, most affordable big city in America.

- The progressive left in this country has been animated by the rise of Zohran Mamdani and his ascension to the mayoralty in New York.

And the last sort of great candidacy that they were excited about and galvanized by was yours.

What can Mayor Mamdani learn from your experience in Chicago?

- Well, first of all, you know, I extend my congratulations to Mayor Mamdani.

- Have you spoken to him since he's become mayor?

- We have not had a chance to talk.

I understand what those first few weeks and couple of months look like and so he's got enough to deal with right now.

You know, I believe that he's already off to a good start.

I believe one of the things that's so critical in this moment is to make sure that he remains connected to the people.

And, you know, I believe that he instituted an office around community engagement.

That's so critical because it's the community that's ultimately gonna help drive the agenda that he ran on, and the more engagement that he can do with everyday people, it sets his administration up to be far more effective because what opposition likes to do is isolate individuals, right?

Where they make it about a single person, and that's- - [Margaret] Is that what happened here?

- [Brandon] Oh, absolutely, right?

I mean, where- - How so?

- Well, just because as Mayor of Chicago, you take on the full responsibility for everything.

Whether it's your responsibility or not, people look to the Mayor's Office to be able to handle and deal with every single circumstance.

It's not an unreasonable expectation.

The challenge is, it requires engagement in a way that ensures that City Council is supportive, in a way that ensures that the General Assembly, the state legislature is accountable to the work as well.

- Let's talk about the budget here in Chicago.

(Brandon laughs) I mean, look, last month, you know, it has been widely reported, City Council for the first time, it enacted a budget without the mayor's support.

You called the document "morally bankrupt."

And look, that you ran on a platform of addressing the city's structural deficits.

You suggested when you ran that you would run on this platform of $800 million in new taxes.

There have been a couple of efforts you have made to increase revenue that have fallen short, both at the City Council and by the voters.

In September, you declared, quote, "We don't have a spending problem.

We have a revenue problem."

Do you still believe that?

And what is your plan?

- Yeah, well, I still believe it.

We have a revenue challenge.

Look, just because those two measures, and I'm happy to dig into those two measures, did not end up the way I wanted it to end up, it doesn't mean that the fight for progressive revenue is, one, wrong, or two, over, right?

I mean, look- - If you can't get it through the City Council, you couldn't get it through the voters, what is your next option?

- To continue to take the case to the people of this city, to take the case to the people of the State of Illinois, and of course, to continue to take it to City Council.

Look, again, you don't give up on something because it didn't work out for us.

The fact of the matter is, whether it was civil rights or women's rights or any other right that we were able to secure, you may not be able to do that in the first round.

That doesn't give you an excuse to just stand idly by and just twiddle your thumbs, so this is what we've done.

- Are you saying this fiscal crisis that the city faces can only be addressed with revenue and that there isn't work to do on the spending front?

- Well, look, revenue is important.

We are doing both-and.

But if we're going to continue to build more affordable homes, because that's what people want, if we're gonna continue to drive violence down in the City of Chicago, because that's what people want, we have to invest in people so it's both-and.

It is progressive revenue, but it's also finding ways in which we can streamline government so that we are being far more effective in our delivery of services.

- You mention affordable housing.

In 2023, Chicago spent $747,000 per unit to build affordable housing.

The next largest city in the country, Houston, spends less than half of that per unit.

So you talk about affordable housing, but the high cost is partly due to, you know, a long list of requirements that the city has like energy efficiency, diversity, cabinet space.

What can you do to make it cheaper?

- Well, one of the things that I've done, we put forth this effort, it's called the Cut the Tape initiative, right?

'Cause of the bureaucracy that the City of Chicago has long held, it's made it very difficult, darn near impossible to do business with the City of Chicago.

But this initiative does allow for that process to be streamlined so that we can actually cut the cost to build more affordable homes.

- Chicago's pension debt has grown.

The pension debt is larger in Chicago than it is in 44 states, as you well know.

- Mm-hmm.

- Last fall, you even had to dip into the city's cash reserves to cover fire pension payments.

Pension payments now consume over 23% of the city's budget.

It's more than triple their share a decade ago.

"The Wall Street Journal" said, "Chicago doesn't need higher taxes to drive away more taxpayers.

It needs a mayor who isn't a wholly-owned public-union subsidiary."

Your response.

- Well, what's ironic about that assertion is that the individuals that were in this position before me were owned by corporations that drove us into the problem in the first place, right?

So look, it's a both-and approach.

We have to invest in our future while also ensuring that past mistakes are addressed.

- You mentioned you were a social studies teacher.

Chicago's public school system is also nearly $10 billion in debt but enrollment is really far down from pre-COVID levels.

Last year, two in five Chicago teachers were chronically absent according to one report by the Illinois Policy Institute.

After taking office, even "The New York Times" described you as quote, "Almost unequivocally adopting the Teachers Union agenda."

Is higher pay and more staff what's needed in the Chicago public schools right now?

- Investment, that's what's needed in our public schools, and that's what's needed in our public schools across America.

You know, look- - But is only investing in Teachers Union, in teachers' salaries the way to do that?

- That's part of it.

But you know, what we've done here in Chicago, we've invested in special education.

We've invested in reducing class sizes.

We've invested in what I believe is the model for the rest of this country, sustainable community schools, which provides real local autonomy for individual schools within communities that have unique challenges.

70% of the people of this state say that we need more funding for our public schools.

In fact, when you look at that across this country, people overwhelmingly know that we have to invest more in our public schools.

And so I'm not going to accept this frame that's coming from extremism in this country that somehow paying educators, whom by the way, are overwhelmingly women, paying them a fair wage, is somehow a problem.

It's not.

Investing in our educators, investing in our families, that's the best thing that we can do to protect and secure our democracy.

- I'm gonna play you a clip, Mr.

Mayor, of the original "Firing Line" where one of the guests on William F. Buckley Jr's program talked to him about things that were happening in your city several decades ago.

Take a look.

- You're clubbed, you're maced, you're gassed, you're freaked, zapped, pushed over.

If you're a peaceful, long-haired, loving protester, you're smashed and knocked down.

If you're a cameraman, you're bricked and your camera's destroyed and your blood is splattered all over you.

I mean, it's a nefarious scene.

- As you probably guessed, that's 1968 Chicago.

- Yeah.

- It was a young activist who was talking about violence unleashed by then Mayor Daley during the Democratic National Convention.

Today, violence is being unleashed again against protesters in American cities, most recently in Minneapolis that we've discussed, Los Angeles, Portland, Chicago.

Are there lessons from Chicago in 1968 that are useful in those situations today?

- Well, we're certainly a much different city than we were in 1968.

The complexion of leadership in this city is much different.

The experience of leadership is much different.

You know, what I can tell you is that I'm confident that when we get to the other side of this moment, we'll be a better and a stronger city, we'll be a better and a stronger people.

I'm confident that that history, as ugly as that year was, that there's so much more to center our guiding principles around than the tyranny that's coming, so we're gonna stand on the hopes and dreams of our ancestors, whether you are an immigrant from around the world or you came up during the Great Migration like my family did from the South, that the City of Chicago is the global capital of the world.

And the people of this world will come to know that we are truly the greatest city in the world.

- Your term ends next spring.

You haven't said yet whether you're gonna run again.

Some of the most recent polls have your approval rating around 30%.

And since 1976, most Chicago mayors besides Daley have only served one term.

Why is this job a hard one to keep?

- (laughs) Well, look, you know, Chicago is, first of all, it's a beautiful city.

It's a tough city, right?

And people have great expectations from their leaders.

The people of this city elected me to build a safe and an affordable city, and we're doing that.

Violent crime is down.

We're building more affordable homes.

And so we have made it very clear that we're gonna focus on the communities.

We're gonna build safe and affordable communities and that's what my focus is gonna remain.

And you know, we'll let the politics continue to work itself out.

- Every year, Chicago's Department of Sanitation holds a contest to name its new snowplows.

This year you have backed the name Abolish ICE.

Can we infer from that that you agree with some of the Democrats who actually have called for abolishing ICE?

- Look, the ICE agents in the federal government in this moment have acted irresponsibly.

The use of ICE has been quite abusive.

It's demonstrated how terrorizing that it could be.

And any form of government that harms people, we should question whether or not it should exist.

- Mayor Brandon Johnson, thank you for joining me on "Firing Line."

- You're welcome.

Thanks for having me.

- Thank you.

(energetic dramatic music) - [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, Pritzker Military Foundation, Cliff and Laurel Asness, and by the following.

(energetic dramatic music continues) (energetic dramatic music continues) (energetic dramatic music continues) (energetic dramatic music fades) (lively upbeat music) (warm upbeat music) - [Announcer] You're watching PBS.