To Dine For with Kate Sullivan

[Kate Sullivan] It is a rare cloudy day in L.A. Not quite June gloom, but definitely gray May.

You can see the Hollywood sign in the background and right on Hollywood Boulevard is a little gem of a restaurant.

It's where I'm meeting one of the world's most famous thought leaders.

[Kate] Hi Simon.

So nice to meet you.

[Kate] Whose life and journey has been a winding road.

[Simon Sinek] I reached a very dark place where I became... like I didn't want to wake up and go to work anymore.

[Kate] Today, Simon Sinek is taking me to his favorite restaurant in Los Angeles, led by two female chefs.

He's sharing his journey to become a best-selling author and world leadership expert.

[Simon] The test for being a good listener is if the other person feels heard.

[Kate] Simon has discovered patterns to how people think, communicate, and act, and is using what he's learned to change our perspective.

[Kate] When you actually discovered your why, what was it?

[Simon] Well, my why then is my why now.

[Kate] Simon shares more about finding his why and how you can find your why too.

[Simon] I believe that loving work is a right and not a privilege.

[Kate] What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food and an amazing conversation?

My name is Kate Sullivan and I am the host of To Dine For .

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler, with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more.

Dreamers.

Visionaries.

Artists.

Those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant, to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them and their American dream.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... [Announcer] There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.

[Kate] Today, I'm on Hollywood Boulevard on my way into a restaurant called Kismet, which means destiny or fate.

The person who chose this as their favorite restaurant is one of the top thought leaders in the world.

I can't wait for you to meet Simon Sinek.

[Kate] Hi Simon.

[Simon] How are you?

[Kate] Good.

How are you?

[Simon] Fine thanks, good to see you.

[Kate] So nice to meet you.

[Simon] Nice to meet you too.

[Kate] Thank you for doing this.

[Simon] Oh, thanks for having me.

[Kate] This is going to be a blast.

[Kate] In the middle of Los Angeles is a vibrant neighborhood called Los Feliz.

This East side enclave is a true hybrid, an eclectic neighborhood bordering the beautiful Griffith Park where hip creatives meet professional types, with a culinary culture that is thriving, especially at Kismet.

[Kate] Isn't this a fun, cozy spot?

[Simon] Oh yeah, it's nice, right?

[Kate] It is.

[Simon] Yeah.

[Kate] What about this place, you know, drew you to it, and what did you like about it?

[Simon] So I, the first time I came here, um, I came as a guest with a friend.

I'm a bit of a foodie, and so when I, I keep track of all my favorite restaurants in the whole world, I put them... [Kate] In a notebook?

[Simon] I put them in my contact list- [Kate] Okay.

-and I put restaurant and the city.

So I can do a search and then I put some notes in.

[Kate] You're a guy after my own heart.

[Kate] I can see why Kismet would leave a lasting impression.

Chefs Sarah Kramer and Sarah Hymanson opened this hip, bright neighborhood eatery in 2017.

They are coworkers turned competitors turned collaborators who met in Brooklyn and took their talent to the west coast.

[Sarah Kramer] We met each other in Brooklyn and we were working in two businesses that shared one space and we were just kind of two grumpy employees in a back room.

[Sarah Hymanson] We had a lot of ease surrounding our communication and our like, creative collaboration.

We have some similar cooking... background and ethos.

It was very clear that we had believed in the same thing.

[Kate] The duo have created a Middle Eastern Mediterranean menu rooted in fresh local Southern California ingredients.

[Sarah H.] We want to make food that is approachable, but also a little bit unexpected.

So food that feels... like you know it and is comforting, but not comfort food.

Like, oh, what is that special little flavor, spice, twist that I can't quite pinpoint that makes it feel a little bit more unique.

[Kate] From the Persian crispy rice to lamb meatballs to the go big menu: like rabbit for two, their dishes hail from Turkey, Iran, and Israel.

Kismet, which means destiny, is the perfect place to dine with Simon Sinek and find out how he went from a job in advertising to the place he was meant to be.

[Kate] Well, I'd love to begin at the beginning.

You grew up in England, but went to high school in New Jersey.

Am I right?

[Simon] S... sort of.

I mean, technically, yes, you're right.

There's uh, there's a couple details in between.

I was born in England, I moved to South Africa, to Johannesburg, then back to England, then to Hong Kong, and then at the tender age of 10 moved to the U.S., to New Jersey.

So I'd already lived on four continents by the age of 10.

[Kate] That's incredible.

[Simon] Great way to grow up, yeah.

[Kate] And who was young Simon, and what trait from your childhood do you still have now?

[Simon] I mean, most of them.

(Both laugh) I was always a pretty happy go lucky kid.

So I think these days as an adult, I call that optimism, but it was basically the same thing.

Um, insatiably curious.

Still true.

I like being a student.

I like learning.

Though, like every kid, I didn't necessarily enjoy school because I mean, what kid does?

[Kate] How do you define what you do?

Because I know what other people have called you, author, thought leader, podcaster.

There's a long list, but I'm just wondering like, if you were sitting next to someone um, on a plane and they asked what you do, what do you say?

[Simon] Well, first and foremost, I define myself as an optimist, you know.

I...

I sort of loathe defining myself by my work.

As you say, podcaster, you know, author, that's stuff I've done.

But if I never write another book again, am I still an author, you know?

If I never podcast again, am I still a podcaster?

Um and I, and I think I've seen it happen in other people's lives where they're- they've so, you know, sort of conflated their identity with their work that when they retire or lose their job... [Kate] Or get fired.

[Simon] Or get fired, or you know, or make a change, they actually have an identity crisis.

[Kate] Interesting.

[Simon] You know, because their lives and their identity have so been intertwined in the work that they do.

But usually what I say is I teach leaders and organizations how to inspire people.

[Sarah K.] Hi.

[Together] Hi.

[Kate] Welcome.

[Simon] Oh my God, that looks so good.

[Kate] This looks incredible.

[Simon] Isn't this great?

[Kate] Yes, it's beautiful.

[Simon] I know.

I just love the colors.

[Kate] Yeah, I mean, this is an Instagrammable moment.

[Simon] It is really.

[Kate] This first course is meant to be documented.

We're starting things off right with malawach, a flaky Israeli flatbread.

It's served with the house labna, which is a Middle Eastern spread, similar to a thick Greek yogurt.

Also in the mix is green zhoug, a popular Middle Eastern paste, chock full of herbs and spices, but that's not all.

The stone fruit salad and beet salad with pickled hibiscus are also on the menu today.

Are you going there or there first?

[Simon] Here, I'll give you some stone fruit.

[Kate] Okay, thank you.

[Simon] You're welcome.

How good does that look?

[Kate] That looks amazing.

Yes.

That's beautiful.

That is beautiful.

[Simon] I'm excited for that.

I love bread.

It's very gauche these days to like bread.

[Kate] Well, I mean, you're the only person in L.A., right?

(chuckles) That eats bread?

[Simon] How good does this look?

[Kate] I love that you said that you're a bit of a foodie.

[chuckles] Can you be a bit of a foodie?

Is it that you don't really want to claim being a foodie and you really are?

[Simon] I think I....

I think there are two- Ooh, that's spicy.

I didn't expect that.

[Kate] (Laughs) Gotcha!

[Simon] Yeah.

I think there are a few criteria to be a full-on foodie.

[Kate] Right.

[Simon] One, would you travel for a restaurant- [Kate] Yes, I would.

[Simon] -you know?

[Kate] Would you?

[Simon] I'd go out of my way, but I'm not sure I'd get on a plane.

[Kate] You wouldn't book a flight?

[Simon] No, I wouldn't book a flight for a restaurant.

So I think that disqualifies me from full foodie.

[Kate] What did that first job in advertising teach you and how did it set you on the path that you're on now?

[Simon] The things that I learned at that part of my career was really from the people I worked for, more than the industry.

I had a good career in advertising and I worked for some remarkable people.

And there's a lot of life lessons that I still use today that have gone into my education um, about what it means to be a great leader from a couple of the people that I worked for.

[Kate] Can you share some?

[Simon] For sure.

I was pretty young in my career, and there was a new business pitch that was happening.

And usually new business pitches were done by the senior folks.

And all the senior folks had gone off for Christmas holidays.

The only, it was me, I didn't go on vacation for the holidays.

And so I was left back at the office, and me and one other junior person, um, we were told to prepare the war room, which basically means hang the research on the walls in preparation for the senior folks to come back in and do the pitch.

We decided to go through all the research and develop the pitch ourselves.

When they came back, we presented our work and they used our strategy in the actual pitch and we lost the pitch.

We didn't win the business, and I got a huge promotion.

My boss actually promoted me two levels up.

[Kate] And why did he do that if you lost the pitch?

[Simon] Because he understood something.

You cannot incentivize an outcome.

You can only incentivize a behavior.

And so, he was impressed by my initiative.

Good leaders sometimes suffer mission failure and bad leaders sometimes enjoy mission success.

So, you can't judge the quality of a leader based on the mission outcome.

You judge the quality of a leader by the characteristics of leadership, and if they embody and demonstrate the characteristics of leadership, they're more likely to enjoy mission success more often over the course of time.

[Kate] But don't most businesses incentivize outcome instead of... [Simon] Correct.

They get it backwards.

[Kate] So, this must be very frustrating for you as you take a look at the landscape of work culture because what you just said, which makes complete sense, and I think anyone watching will say, "Yes, that makes sense."

[Simon] Correct.

[Kate] Actually doesn't happen in the workplace.

[Simon] Correct, because- because people who... lead companies want the outcomes and fail to recognize that it's the people, it's the behaviors, it's the values that are more likely to produce better outcomes over the course of time.

[Kate] You appear to have liked advertising, you appear to have been good at advertising.

So why did you leave advertising?

[Simon] I had entrepreneurial uh, desires and I- [Kate] And what came next?

[Simon] I bounced around to a couple of agencies as is the thing.

I would, I made no secret of it.

You know, I would interview and they'd say "What's your ambition?"

and I said "To one day start my own business."

I mean, I made no secret of it.

I always get a kick out of the fact that you hire somebody who's basically told you, [chuckles] "I'm going to quit."

[Kate] I'm going to learn everything I can from you and then quit.

-Pretty much.

[Simon] Oh, more, yummy.

[Kate] Oh wow.

[Sarah K.] Some Orange broth.

[Kate] The cauliflower.

[Simon] What did you order?

[laughter] This is one of... [Kate] We can't share this?

[Simon] This is one of their famous dishes.

[Sarah K.] And this is our Persian crispy rice.

[Kate] Ah, the Persian crispy rice, that looks so good.

[Kate] For round two, it's a pan roasted salmon in a spicy sour orange broth.

On the side, we're having fried cauliflower with a caper yogurt and the Persian crispy rice.

This rice, also called tahdig, comes from the bottom of the pot to get that perfect crispiness.

Mixed with currents, pumpkin seeds and egg yolk, it's one of those signature dishes you have to make sure you keep room for.

[Simon] Damn, this is good.

[Kate] This is spectacular.

Wow.

That rice.

[Simon] I'm still on the fish.

[Kate] Mm.

At what point in your career did someone call you a thought leader?

[Simon] I don't know, I'll be honest.

[Kate] When did you feel like your career really got some traction and momentum?

[Simon] So, I quit my own business to follow this thing called the why, which became an obsession.

[Kate] And where did you get the idea for it?

[Simon] I reached a very dark place where I became like I didn't want to wake up and go to work anymore.

[Kate] Really?

[Simon] But superficially my life looked good.

I owned my own business.

We had great clients, we did great work.

And so I was very embarrassed by the fact that I didn't want to go to work anymore.

So, I never said that.

All of my energy went into pretending that I was happier, more successful, and more in control than I actually was.

[Kate] And what was missing?

[Simon] A very close friend of mine came to me and said, "Something's, something's wrong."

And I came clean and it was cathartic and it lifted a huge weight off my shoulders.

And all of that energy that went into lying, hiding and faking, could now go into finding a solution.

And the solution I found was this thing called the why.

Based on the biology of decision making.

I knew what I did.

I knew how I did it.

I could tell you how I stood out from the crowd, but I couldn't tell you why I was doing it.

And that's the piece that was missing.

That's the real, that's what I realized was why my passion disappeared.

And so I became obsessed with the understanding my why.

More important, I figured out a way to help other people find their why.

And so like when you see a great movie or you read a great book, you tell your friends, "You've got to see this movie, you've got to read this book."

So I literally stand in someone's living room in New York City and give a talk about the why and help somebody find their why for a hundred bucks on the side.

[Kate] Wow.

[Simon] That's how it started.

[Kate] That became a side, the why became a side hustle.

[Simon] It became a side hustle, and I was so much more passionate about that than I was about the marketing business that I had started.

And people just kept inviting me and I just kept saying yes.

[Kate] Simon's side hustle caught on fast.

In a 2009 TED Talk, he pitched the concept of why to the masses.

The presentation turned into a blockbuster hit, becoming the second most watched TED Talk of all time.

13 years later, it's still in the top five with 50 million views.

[Simon] As it turns out, there's a pattern.

As it turns out, all the great and inspiring leaders and organizations in the world, whether it's Apple or Martin Luther King or the Wright Brothers, they all think, act and communicate the exact same way.

And it's the complete opposite to everyone else.

All I did was codify it.

[Kate] What was the effect of that?

Of having a TED talk like that go viral?

[Simon] In the business world, people knew who I was um, and it created a demand for my work.

People wanted to know more.

Interestingly, they were not, um, correlated.

So everybody who read my book knew I gave a TED Talk, but very few people who saw my TED Talk knew that I'd written a book.

[Kate] Oh, interesting.

[Simon] They didn't start to align until the paperback came out a few years later.

But yeah, it created a- created a demand for- for the idea set.

[Kate] Simon's TED Talk and his message to demand a purpose at work and ask the why of your organization was all there in his first book, "Start with Why."

He has since published three more books, including "Leaders Eat Last," which landed him on the New York Times and Wall Street Journal's best-sellers list.

[Simon] I had no ambitions of being an author.

I wasn't one of those people who believed I had a book in him.

And after I wrote my first book, I thought, "that's it, I'm done" like "I'm a one book guy" and continued to go off and build my career and figure out, wasn't a hundred percent sure how I was going to make a business around this why thing, I was doing a lot of speaking, which was amazing.

That became an accidental career.

It was amazing.

And I wanted as many people to have that as possible and the way I would talk about it back then, but I still believe it now, I believe that loving work is a right and not a privilege.

[Kate] So, what was your why at that moment, when you actually discovered your why, what was it?

[Simon] Well, my why then is my why now, I just wasn't doing it.

[Kate] Is it the same why?

[Simon] Yeah, of course.

Your why never changes for your whole life.

Your why's fully fully formed by the time- [Kate]I didn't know that.

-you're in your mid to late teens and that's it.

You are who you are.

You're fully formed based on the experiences you had growing up, based on, you know, your parents and whatever happened at school made you who you are.

There's no changing that.

The rest of your life offers you an opportunity to make decisions, to live in balance with that why or not, call that authenticity.

[Kate] Okay.

So, what was your why when you discovered it?

[Simon] To inspire people to do the things that inspire them.

So together, each of us can change our world for the better.

And that is what I've devoted my life to.

It is what inspires me.

For me, the fun and creativity is finding all the different ways that I can do that.

But the greatest compliment someone can ever pay me when I come off a stage, or if they read my book or anything, or even listen to a podcast, anything I do, is that that was inspiring or that inspired me.

That is to me the greatest compliment I can be given.

[Kate] That's great.

You're an eternal optimist.

[Simon] I am.

[Kate] I'm an eternal optimist.

But let's pretend I'm not.

[Simon] Okay.

[Kate] Let's pretend.

[Simon] That you're cynical.

[Kate] I'm very cynical and I'm in a bad place and I don't know my why.

What is the first thing you would tell me to do?

[Simon] So, there's multiple ways to find your why, and I can give you a fun one you can do and anyone can do by themselves.

Um, but fundamentally trying to find someone's why is simply a matter of pattern recognition.

[Kate] Okay.

[Simon] So, I'm going to ask a lot of questions about your experiences at work and even your childhood from when you were at your natural best, when you were thriving.

And I can find patterns and when things were a struggle, I can usually see that that same pattern is missing.

Tell me a project or something you did professionally that you absolutely loved being a part of, something specific; that if every day was like this one thing, if every part of your job was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person in life.

[Kate] Ok, I can- I know the exact day.

I was a local news reporter in Arkansas.

I had just covered, I had gone to Honduras to follow a non-profit called Heifer International and preview their work.

It's an amazing organization.

I had an incredible time on that trip telling that story.

But what I remember loving even more was coming back and being able to share the story with the viewers.

[Simon] So as a reporter, you did that many times.

You would go see things that were amazing and share them with people.

What was it specifically about this one that makes it stand out beyond all the others in your career?

[Kate] It was uplifting.

I had done many stories that were not, this was really exceptional.

And I knew that I had the ability through my words to make it real for somebody.

And I loved that.

[Simon] Okay.

Now tell me an early specific childhood memory.

Not like we went to my grandparents every weekend.

Something that I can relive with you.

An early specific childhood memory that you can share with me like it's a movie.

[Kate] Ah, when I was a kid, my dad loved to collect antiques and he would take me to um, a antique dealerships and we would go to auctions at night.

And I was very young, I remember falling asleep on the chairs.

And I remember watching the thrill of people getting deals.

And um, this woman, she was in her eighties, but she would uh take these artifacts and she would sell the heck out of them.

And she'd be like, "This is a deal."

And she's like, "I'm going to start with $20.

Do I hear 20?

Do I hear 20?

Do I hear 30?

Do I hear 30?

Yes.

40.

Do I hear 40?

This is a deal."

I remember how, uh I had never seen an auctioneer before.

I thought it was so interesting and exciting and um, and I loved that I was doing it with my dad.

[Simon] Okay, so... [Kate] I don't know how these connect, but... [Simon] So, there is a connection.

There is a pattern there.

Yeah.

In both cases, there's a sharing.

In both cases, there's a sharing of something that people are interested and passionate about.

It wasn't some random stuff.

You went with your dad and he was an antiques collector.

So this was something he loved.

This was a passion.

So you were part of your dad's passion and you're getting to, basically this person is selling you passion.

[Kate] Right.

[Simon] It's basically what's happening.

Right?

And you talk about the... Honduras story.

It's basically you finding something that is beautiful and passionate and uplifting, just like the uplifting of collecting, and your job was to do the same thing.

You were basically sharing, selling goodwill.

You're sharing goodness in the world.

And you said what distinguished that experience from others is that others were generic or rote or sad.

And so your idea is about is about sharing and selling the exceptional.

[Kate] Right.

That's exactly it.

[Simon] And so, you know, your why lives in this space.

Which is you are basically, you are become that that auctioneer- [Kate] Yes.

-in some way, shape or form.

You know, and the rest of us are basically coming along for the ride.

Like you... with your dad.

[Kate] Have you ever interacted with someone who you couldn't determine their why or you didn't feel like they had a why or what do you do in that situation?

[Simon] Everybody has a why.

[Kate] Everybody has a why.

[Simon] There's only been one person that I- that I wasn't able to get to.

[Kate] Only one?

I think that's pretty good odds.

[Kate] Simon's dedication to the concept of why is the driving force behind his company, The Optimism Company.

There are online classes, workshops, and subscription services for both individuals and companies who are looking for coaching on a more positive, optimistic outlook.

[Kate] You have bad days?

[Simon] I'm... here to say on the record, it is not utopia.

We screw things up on a regular basis.

Companies are like relationships.

There's no such thing as a perfect relationship.

And you know, I'm always struck by when you meet really great couples, they always say, "Oh, it's a lot of work."

And I'm like "Well, I thought great means no work."

But great turns out means a lot of work.

And and great organizations are the same way and companies, like relationships, are imperfect.

But you know, if like- for me, having a great relationship is not that there's no fighting, that there's no disagreements.

It's that when you fight, that when you disagree, that you argue to get to resolution rather than to argue to be right.

[Kate] To make the other person wrong.

[Simon] To make the other person wrong.

And it's the same inside a company that we're gonna... we're gonna have a difficult conversation to get to resolution, not you're wrong, and I'm right.

Right?

[Kate] When you look at everything that you do, from writing books to dealing with individuals and... counseling companies and speaking, what part of all the different hats that you wear and different jobs that you do, do you feel like is most Simon Sinek?

Like when do you feel like, wow, this is really what I love?

[Simon] When I can be in service, that is when I'm my happiest.

You know, service comes with sacrifice sometimes, not always, but sometimes.

It comes... And for me, service is not just about helping because that that's like "I helped you."

You know service is I think providing something valuable to somebody else with no expectation of anything in return.

[Kate] There are going to be people who are listen to this conversation and they're going to see themselves in you and see that they too love when they're in, of service to someone.

But they won't know, maybe they never knew that that was their why, too.

[Simon] Well, there's a- there's an irony here, because that's everybody.

You know, human beings are, we're social animals.

We all desire a feeling of belonging.

We all desire that our lives and our work have meaning.

We all want to get to the end of our lives and feel that it was worth it.

[Kate] I could talk to you for two more hours, (both laugh) but this is a 30 minute show.

Simon, this has been a joy.

Thank you so much for joining me at Kismet.

[Simon] My pleasure.

[Kate] Cheers!

Salut.

[Kate] How could I not enjoy a meal with Simon Sinek?

A born storyteller, a deeply curious man who thinks endlessly about how to see the world differently.

His career started from a pain point.

He didn't want to go to work.

There had to be a better way.

And he used that knowledge to take a deep dive into why we do what we do.

The restaurant is called Kismet, meant to be.

We all have a purpose, Simon says, and your life will have more meaning if you pursue it, Simon says.

And being in service to others is ultimately the greatest why you can ever choose.

Simon says, indeed.

[Kate] If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit todinefortv.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at To Dine For TV.

We also have a podcast, To Dine For the podcast is available on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ANNOUNCER: There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.