To Dine For with Kate Sullivan

HOST: He is the very definition of a rock star, turning out hit after hit to sold-out arenas for almost four decades.

But behind the curtain there is so much more to this rock legend.

JON BON JOVI: It takes a brave man to let his hair go gray and still wanna compete with the young kids (laughing).

HOST: Today, superstar Jon Bon Jovi is taking me to a restaurant near and dear to his heart: a place he believes in, a place with soul.

JON: This is how you meet your neighbors and probably how you're gonna meet yourself.

HOST: Over a fresh farm-to-table meal, Jon shares some of the secrets behind his creativity and creative process.

JON: "That's a song."

And so I went and I wrote it.

HOST: It's the joy of songwriting.

JON: And that is the only thing.

That is the motivator.

Everyone is gonna be the best one you've ever written.

HOST: All the while, sharing how the pandemic taught him something priceless.

JON: I found that this was a great opportunity to be grateful.

It was always there, I just didn't always see it.

HOST: And we're meeting his wife, Dorothea, and hearing how her vision of paying it forward turned into a powerful mission for this couple.

DOROTHEA HURLEY: You know, our whole thing is, when we break bread, we break the barriers between us, and it really was a place people could come an make connections with people they might have never met before.

HOST: What's better in life than a bottle of wine, great food and an amazing conversation?

My name is Kate Sullivan and I am the host of To Dine For .

I'm a journalist, a foodie, a traveler, with an appetite for the stories of people who are hungry for more.

Dreamers.

Visionaries.

Artists.

Those who hustle hard in the direction they love.

I travel with them to their favorite restaurant, to hear how they did it.

This show is a toast to them and their American dream.

KATE: To Dine For with Kate Sullivan is made possible by... ANNOUNCER: There are people in your life who count on you for what matters most.

American National agents are close to home and committed to our communities.

They'll help you find the right coverage for you, your family, even your farm and business.

You can learn more at americannational.com.

KATE: Today, we're in Red Bank, New Jersey.

I'm on my way to one of the most unique restaurants in this country: Soul Kitchen.

I am meeting a true dreamer, creator, and visionary, and one of the most famous rock stars of our generation: Jon Bon Jovi.

KATE: Hello, so good to see you.

Nice to meet...

I should.... DOROTHEA HURLEY: I know, I'm shaking.

JON: Who knows...what the protocols are anymore.

KATE: I know.

This is so exciting.

JON: Welcome to the Soul Kitchen.

KATE: You may not have heard of Red Bank, New Jersey before.

To some, it's just another train stop on the way to the beach, but this former port town of 12,000 residents is actually known as the Greenwich Village of the Garden State.

Located along the Navesink River, and just five miles from the Atlantic Ocean, Red Bank is filled with trendy stores, funky coffee shops, and a vibrant art scene.

And right in the heart of this artsy town is a restaurant with soul.

KATE: Thank you so much for bringing me to JBJ Soul Kitchen.

This is such a treat.

JON BON JOVI: Welcome (laughing).

DOROTHEA: Thank you for coming.

JON: This is it.

KATE: JBJ Soul Kitchen just feels like home, and that's all part of the plan: to make this not just a restaurant, but a refuge.

CHEF ROB WOOD: A lot of times you go to a restaurant; you're feeding just the body.

Here, we're doing so much more.

We're also feeding the soul, hence, Soul Kitchen.

KATE: This is a community restaurant cooking up classic farm-to-table meals five days a week.

With three locations, the mission is for individuals and families to come together, and eat delicious food with dignity, even if they can't afford to pick up the check.

Rob: Everyone's provided a blue envelope after their meal, and those that are able to pay, they put the money in there based off of a suggested donation of $20 per person, or if they are unable, then we try and see if they would join our community and volunteer in the restaurant.

We're trying to fight food insecurity, and we're not a soup kitchen, we're a soul kitchen.

KATE: Since opening in 2011, JBJ Soul Kitchen has served up more than 136,000 delicious meals, and make no mistake: just because the bill is modest, that doesn't mean the menu isn't high-quality and healthy.

ROB: You're more concerned about what you're putting out because people that are eating it most of the time, this might be the only meal that they get of the day, so you want it to be memorable, you wanna make sure they wanna come back.

KATE: The everyday menu offers a three-course meal, with an option of soup or salad, a choice of entre, an a freshly-made dessert.

On today's menu, the pea soup and braised short ribs, paired with mashed potatoes and asparagus in a pan sauce.

For dessert, a lemon cake trifle.

I'm talking layers of lemon cake, fresh blueberry compote, whipped cream, and fresh blueberries.

I'm digging in with the brains behind the operation: Jon Bon Jovi and his wife of 32 years, Dorothea Hurley.

KATE: I always love to hear the story behind the story, and I know all of this didn't just appear.

So, can you both share how it all began?

How did JBJ Soul Kitchen come to be?

JON: Fifteen, sixteen years ago, I'd started a foundation and we had been building affordable housing, from coast to coast.

Dorothea had a stream-of-consciousness idea, watching the nightly news, and she says, "Well, now we have to feed all those people that we've housed, because the opportunity to continue to build houses has dried up."

KATE: Hmm.

DOROTHEA: I mean, we all know a soup kitchen, and people get fed, but I wanted people to have a dining experience and feel, have the dignity of a beautiful meal, and everyone deserves that.

JON: Yeah.

DOROTHEA: So...you know, our whole thing is, when you break bread, we break the barriers between us, and it really was a place where people could come, and make connections with people they might have never met before.

KATE: Chef Rob, wow!

(laughter) KATE: This is beautiful.

I can't wait to dive in.

This is the short ribs.

DOROTHEA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: With mashed potatoes and asparagus, and you guys are... JON: I'm eating the salmon.

DOROTHEA: Salmon on salad.

JON: I'm not eating the smashed potatoes that I want to eat.

KATE: You've given me all those calories (laughing).

I see how this is.

JON: The idea that there's no prices on our menu, but we're directly empowering somebody by volunteering, and/or if you were to come and leave that suggested donation on a table...you, you witness what we're doing, because it covered your meal and paid for someone else.

KATE: But the food's good.

JON: And then, the food is great.

KATE: Right?

JON: So, don't perceive it, please never perceive this to have been a soup kitchen.

KATE: Right.

JON: It's not a soup kitchen.

They're a beautiful bistro.

KATE: And that, and that's, yeah.

DOROTHEA: That's a restaurant.

KATE: That's really obvious when you walk in.

JON: It's just a restaurant.

KATE: Yes.

JON: It's just happened to become a natural of, extension of who and what we are because we saw the need, not because it was fashionably hip to be...philanthropic.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: You know; it was probably the opposite for a rock star.

You know, aren't you supposed to throw a TV out the window (laughing)?

KATE: Plenty of rock starts and celebrities' open restaurants, but not restaurants like this.

But then again, Jon Bon Jovi isn't your typical rock star, either.

KATE: You are an iconic New Jersey guy, right?

And I think that is something that's in your DNA.

How would you describe where you grew up and what it was like growing up where you did?

JON: Sayreville, New Jersey was a wonderful middle-class working community of Eastern Europeans that, you know, migrated there... KATE: Yeah.

JON: ...so we had a very easy, but hardworking... You know, both of my parents worked six days a week.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: So, hard work was always instilled in us.

KATE: Do you remember your first job?

JON: I worked in a fast food place, like every other teenager.

KATE: You did?

JON: Yeah, in the mall.

KATE: Did you like it?

JON: I didn't hate it.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: I had a certain, you know, laser-beam focus even at that young age, but I didn't hate the jobs that I had to do, and I worked in an auto body shop for a second, and I tried to sell newspaper subscriptions door to door.

But, none of these jobs were very meaningful or long-lasting because even at an early age I was playing in bars and nightclubs, and I got a record deal at 20 years old.

KATE: So, you were performing at what age?

JON: I started playing bars at 16.

KATE: Okay.

JON: I had a record deal by the time I was 20, the same one I have today, 38 years later.

KATE: That's incredible.

JON: Yeah.

KATE: That is incredible.

JON: Cause I had a single-minded focus to make it work on behalf of the greater good.

KATE: Right.

JON: You know, and so I didn't chase any of that.

It takes a brave man to let his hair go gray and still wanna compete with the young kids, you know (laughing)?

But...you know, it's that kind of confidence in, what you do and, and hard work.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: You know; I've got the will of an army.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: And so it's, it's really... KATE: And where did that come from?

Was that your mom and dad?

JON: To some degree, sure, because you know, the one great thing I could say about my folks is even at that early age they, they didn't discourage my playing in bars at 16 years old (laughing).

My dad has often said that at least if, you know, he, I was out til 3:00 in the morning they knew where I was.

KATE: Jon's parents didn't just know where he was: they supported his drive to become a musician.

It's something he realized back then, and has carried with him as he's raised his four children: Stephanie, Jessie, Jacob, and Romeo.

JON: One hot trigger topic with me, come in the room and say, "I don't want my kid to grow up and be a musician or be an actor, be a..." You wanna see me go off like a Titan missile, try that.

KATE: And why?

JON: Because people are stifling the creativity or the dreams of, of the next generation, whatever that is: to be a chef, to be a writer, to be a singer.

What...whatever it is in the world you might wanna do.

Stifling creativity and dreams, to me, it's just, it's a hot-button topic.

KATE: So, if all four of your children wanted to be musicians you would say, "Thumbs up" and if they don't, "Thumbs up."

JON: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

DOROTHEA: Of course, of course.

KATE: One thing I've noticed among truly creative people is that it is insatiable.

It's something that cannot be suppressed.

It is within you.

DOROTHEA: Mm-hmm.

JON: Yeah.

KATE: And it finds a way out in some... DOROTHEA: Mm-hmm...exactly.

KATE: ...form or fashion.

DOROTHEA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: And it's whether you listen to that... JON: If you listen to it, yeah.

KATE: If you listen to it.

JON: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

DOROTHEA: And you have people that support you, I think.

I think that... You know, you just need one teacher who says, "You're smart.

You, you have talent."

You know, you, somebody recognizes something in you.

I think that that's... KATE: Yeah, someone can suppress it.

A family member... JON: Oh, sure.

KATE: ...very easily.

Did you feel a greater obligation, knowing that your kids were well cared for and really had so much given to them that they wouldn't find that?

DOROTHEA: Well, you know what I always say to my kids?

"You need to get a jobby-job."

You know, it's like, this is... KATE: A real job.

DOROTHEA: Yeah, yeah.

"No, well, you just need a job."

And it's not, you know, Daddy works, Mommy works.

You know.

KATE: Yeah.

DOROTHEA: You work.

KATE: That was important to instill that?

DOROTHEA: Absolutely, and they see how hard their father works.

JON: Yeah.

DOROTHEA: You know, they...

I, I would like to think...

I mean, sure, they've lived a very blessed life, and they know that.

JON: Privileged.

DOROTHEA: And they know that, and they are grateful for it.

But they wanna find their own way, too.

You know, they wanna have their own identities and have their own, you know, path in life.

JON: Yeah.

They've, they've absolutely taken my work ethic.

All, all four of them have that.

KATE: That's incredible.

JON: Yeah.

They definitely... KATE: That's rare, right?

That you guys did... JON: They all, they're all... KATE: ...something really good there.

JON: ...crazy driven.

DOROTHEA: Yeah.

We're a very competitive family.

(All laughing) JON: Yeah.

DOROTHEA: It's kind of a sick thing.

KATE: You're all trying to outdo each other?

DOROTHEA: Never play sports with us, never play games with us, never play sports with us.

You learn that over... JON: Mommy will bloody your nose (laughing).

KATE: Can you take me behind the scenes of your creativity, in the sense of, do you write every day?

JON: No, I'm confident, I'm comfortable enough, that I can turn the faucet off and know that I can turn it on again at will.

Every day is an opportunity to write a song, whether or not you're receptive to it.

You have to really, you know, sit down and, and let it come, is another thing.

You know, because it's a commitment.

But, right behind that wall, you know, a year ago now... KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: ...unbeknownst to me, Dorothea snapped my picture while I was washing the dishes, and we were here, I had just pulled the plug on what was meant to be, you know, this album, this last album, and I canceled the tour outright because I knew people had to pay their bills, and she snapped this photograph.

What she really was asking me when she showed me the photograph the next day was the hours of the day that we would be giving food out to people, and the days of the week.

JON: But somehow, I just blurted out, "If you can't do it, you do what you can."

And I walked away.

And she's going, "That's a nice caption."

I say, "Yeah, it's a nice caption."

I go on, I just teetered around the house like I do.

KATE: Or a song lyric?

JON: And then, the next day I went, "Wait a minute.

That's a song."

And so, I went and I wrote it.

But it comes from washing a dish.

KATE: Washing a dish.

JON: Washing a dish, and there it was.

KATE: To have musical talent is one thing, but to sustain it for decade after decade is another thing.

Jon broke out in the 1980s and hasn't slowed down since.

Over the past 38 years, his band has sold more than 120 million albums worldwide, 34 million of them in the US.

They've performed their addictive rock anthems at 2700 concerts in over 50 countries, for more than 34 million fans.

Yeah, 34 million.

But it's the story of how he wrote the song, "Bed of Roses," that's' one of my favorites.

JON: I went out to Los Angeles, I guess it was '90, '92, but there was a weeding going on out in the courtyard of the hotel, and there was a rollaway piano, and the hotel had always been so gracious with me, and I said, "Hey, would you roll that up to my room?"

Really not thinking that they would.

And I'd come home and, having had too much fun, I went right to bed, and I got up in the morning, picked up my bag to leave to wherever it was that I was meant to be, and I felt guilty.

So, I looked at the damn piano and I said, "Not today."

And my head was throbbing.

JON: But I sat down with my bag, you know, next to me on the piano, sitting here wasted and wounded... hence, the hangover... at this old piano, trying to capture the moment, but this morning I don't know, and I wrote "Bed of Roses."

KATE: Hmm.

JON: And it became a big hit song.

KATE: So the moment can strike at any point, even in your lowest.

JON: Even when you're hurt, even in the fog.

Sometimes, it happens in the fog.

KATE: When you say you're constantly writing; what else are you doing to hone that skill of yours?

JON: I honestly have never worked harder at it.

I think, I sang yesterday in the studio like it was a full-on show, my guitar plugged in, for two and a half hours, and I did 20-some different songs that I haven't sung in 25 years.

But I, I literally take singing lessons every single day.

You're an exception.

This is a big deal, to get me to cancel a singing lesson.

KATE: Really?

Every day you take singing le... JON: Five days a week.

Yeah, it's, it's religion.

KATE: Thank you.

JON: So, 11:00 every day, five days a week.

That's what I did.

I have a little PA, and my guitars are plugged in.

I just go down the list and pick a bunch of songs, and scream like we're playing the Garden.

I just walk away right now saying, I'm proud of the catalog of work.

It's, it's been a, a live well-lived.

KATE: Songwriting took on a new meaning for Jon in 2020, when the pandemic delayed his album and canceled his tour.

Jon took the time off to reflect on what was going on around him, and what resulted was 2020, his most socially conscious album to date.

Your songs ran the gamut from the pandemic, to Black lives matter, to the time, the sweet, specifiable time, you get to spend with your family.

JON: Yeah.

KATE: So, you really used everything going on this year, your kind of poured it into your writing.

JON: Yeah.

The album was called "2020," which, it'll be that moment in time, I think...

It's all a sort of strange experience, having released this record that I worked so hard on... we have worked so hard on.

But...like, releasing a record into a vacuum.

I don't know the reaction, I don't feel it.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: It, it breaks my heart, because I love the songs... (to Chef Rob) Thanks, buddy, that was delicious.

CHEF ROB: Thank you.

JON: So, it was a tough record to release because it's almost like it didn't happen.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: You know?

The Story of Love, I know is, it's on the charts right now, but I've never heard it on the radio.

You know, It's very strange.

It's like it didn't happen.

KATE: Well, this past year, it was so incredibly difficult for everyone in different ways.

I'm wondering how it was for you and your family.

Were there any silver linings to it?

JON: Even if you're home, you're not necessarily always there... KATE: Yeah, being present.

JON: So, I find that this was... KATE: Thank you so much.

Wow.

JON: ...a great opportunity to be grateful and with your eyes, seeing, with your ears, hear, and have gratitude for everything around you because it was always there, I just didn't always see it.

KATE: The pandemic didn't just hit Jon's tour.

It hit the restaurant, too.

As the restaurant industry struggled to stay alive, so did JBJ Soul Kitchen.

The model, to come together and dine, couldn't happen, but their community needed them, so Jon started doing dishes, helping out in the kitchen, five days a week.

In fact, both Jon and Dorothea worked more than 50 days straight, volunteering at the Soul Kitchen.

Over 13 weeks of takeout only, 7800 meals to individuals, families, community partners, and frontline workers.

You could say, they did what they could.

Restaurants are hurting so badly.

DOROTHEA: Some of our first customers after COVID were restaurant workers.

KATE: Were they really?

DOROTHEA: And people we knew.

You know, people from the community, restaurant workers... JON: And their families.

DOROTHEA: Yeah.

JON: And, we were closed, and I was...you know, washing dishes, and Dorothea, and Lily, our manager's wife, was you know, serving the food out.. DOROTHEA: We did to-go meals.

JON: ...to go.

DOROTHEA: To-go meals.

JON: To the restaurant workers and their families, from the community.

It was heartbreaking.

DOROTHEA: Yeah.

We, we've gone back to our regular model.

You know, we...

I would say 80 percent in need... KATE: Yep.

DOROTHEA: ...20 percent paying.

People are coming back.

You know, our community's very supportive, and we see more of the locals coming back and sitting, and eating when they can.

JON: Mm-hmm.

KATE: I imagine you've had many moments that have, really made this all worthwhile, but can you take me to one of them that really... JON: Oh, there have been kids that have come through the ranks and then worked here, and went on to have successful careers, who would come from drug and alcohol dependency, but they had somebody who had faith in them, that came and they bused a table and then ended up being a sous-chef, and you know, and went on to greater things.

DOROTHEA: That's why you do the work.

KATE: Looking back, if you weren't a musician, what do you think you would have done with your life?

JON: I, I don't know, cause, like, I'm not joking when I said, I didn't have a Plan B. KATE: Yeah.

JON: But I think that, honestly, I have had enough therapy to say I could have been happy just working the way my folks did... KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: ...you know, and it wasn't that I, I had to have this, you know.

So, the applause don't drive me.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: Celebrity certainly doesn't drive me.

KATE: So, what's the thrill of going on tour?

JON: There's not much.

KATE: Yeah.

So, what, is it...what do you look forward to?

JON: Coming home (laughing).

KATE: Then, why do... Then, why do it?

JON: When you write a song, to see it on that piece of paper, the imagination about will it come to life in the studio, is it a worthy record?

Will people like it?

I wanna go see how they react to it.

KATE: Hmm.

JON: That's it for me.

KATE: It's the reaction of the crowd, solely.

Great.

JON: Like, I said, it's the interaction, to see how the songs are received, but the other 22 hours of the day really stink.

KATE: Wow.

So, it really is a chore.

It's hard work.

JON: Well, it's work.

KATE: It really is work.

JON: That's what I get paid for.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: You know?

It's... KATE: People are gonna be shocked to hear that, because... JON: Mm-hmm, they should be... KATE: ...everyone dreams of the rock star life.

They do.

JON: But they, they think it's a party.

KATE: Yeah, they do.

JON: I'm the host.

I'm not, you know, I'm not at it, I'm catering it (laughing).

KATE: You're support staff.

JON: And cleaning up after.

DOROTHEA: He's, he's working the party, he's working the party.

JON: I'm working it, you know.

So- KATE: (Laughing) But what I'm hearing from you is, it's the joy of songwriting.

JON: That is the only thing.

That is the motivator.

Everyone is going to be the best one you've ever written.

Every one.

It's always that.

KATE: Yeah.

It's the artist in you- the need to create.

JON: It's the hope that, that, that one is the greatest one I've ever written.

KATE: Ten years from now, twenty years from now, still performing?

Still writing songs?

JON: I've always jokingly said that I can't wait for the Rolling Stones to retire so at least I know where the end zone is.

(Laughing) But Mick Jagger's got 20 years on me, and I can't keep up now.

You know?

So... but I've never been an applause junky, so I don't, I don't live for that.

I like it, I'm great at it, but that's where it ends.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: So, 30 shows a year instead of 200, then you can still do it... KATE: Yeah.

JON: ...but it's just, it's, it's not gonna be living out of a suitcase.

KATE: You know, hearing what your work with the Soul Kitchen, working with the Soul Foundation... JON: Yeah.

KATE: ...doing the Food Bank in the middle of the pandemic... JON: Yeah.

KATE: ...you both have an entrepreneurial spirit and a heart to give, and that will extend.

JON: That will go on forever.

KATE: Yeah.

JON: Until we're done.

We're creatives, so I create.

It's, you know, and then whatever happens with it happens.

KATE: Yeah.

This has been amazing.

Thank you.

JON: Thank you.

KATE: Thank you both.

DOROTHEA: Thank you.

KATE: This has been fantastic.

I have loved hearing your story.

I really believe that creative people, entrepreneurial people, all have connective tissue, so it's always fun to interview people that are in music, and what can they teach people who are in business, and vice-versa.

JON: Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

KATE: The restaurant is housed in an old autobody shop, with three concrete stalls.

Now, the warm, inviting atmosphere is all thanks to what Jon and Dorothea put into the restaurant and created.

And just outside the restaurant, in true farm-to-table fashion, is the garden, where their chefs can take their pick of fresh ingredients.

KATE: This is so interesting.

When you first started, was this garden... in your mind, or did that come later?

DOROTHEA: Oh no, I always wanted a garden... KATE: You did.

DOROTHEA: ...but this just happened, you know, this was just like, a gravel parking lot, and it was all filled with giant holes and everything.

JON: Cars, smashed up cars.

KATE: And, and you thought, you had the vision to think, "We should do like, a farm-to-table..." DOROTHEA: Oh, I wanted that the whole time.

Like, that was... We were out, when we were looking for spaces, we were thinking, like, either hydroponics... we were trying to figure out how do we grow our own food, cause... KATE: That could then be cooked.

DOROTHEA: I wanted people to see where their food came from, and how food grows, and the connection that, you know, we had to, to food in the ground.

KATE: Far..., this is two farm-to-table.

DOROTHEA: Mm-hmm.

KATE: For their third location, the Soul Kitchen set up shop at Rutgers University.

You might not know this, but one in three students attending a four-year college struggles with obtaining consistent food.

At Rutgers, more than 50 percent of students have exceptional financial need, making this the perfect place for the Soul Kitchen.

I was really surprised that the Rutgers Soul Kitchen has been so enduring and successful.

I had no idea this food insecurity among students.

JON: We learned it at Notre Dame, and when you really think about it in the context of great four and five-star athletes... KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: ...doesn't mean that they had pocket money when they were hungry.

KATE: Right.

JON: You know.

And so, all those years ago, the spark was lit in us on the university campus, and so as we made this model, created all of this, kept that in the back of our minds... And again, because it's Jersey-centric, we did the first one at Rutgers, at Newark, and I have to tell you, God bless Rutgers University.

They said, "We get it, we want this, we want to do this, we're putting everything together."

KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: And then, COVID hit.

But, when it opened... KATE: Mm-hmm.

JON: ...Dorothea got calls from coast to coast from the university saying, "We want this."

KATE: Oh, there's a sign right in the front when you walk in.

DOROTHEA: "All are welcome at our table."

KATE: Why is that so important to you?

DOROTHEA: Because this is about community, and this is not just, you know; "Oh, certain people get to eat in a restaurant."

Everybody's welcome.

KATE: Mm-hmm.

Yeah, there's nothing like a meal to bring people together.

JON: Yeah.

DOROTHEA: Absolutely, absolutely.

KATE: What a meal in Red Bank, New Jersey today.

You know, we throw around the work rock star these days, but there are very, very few people who can claim the word in its entirety, and this man can.

I thought it was fascinating that for having a job that so many people see as a fantasy, Jon says, the one thing that truly feels good is giving back.

Proof that you can search the world and perform on the biggest stages around the globe, but the one thing that truly endures, that really counts, is serving others.

KATE: If you would like to know more about the guests, the restaurants, and the inspiring stories of success, please visit todinefortv.com or follow us on Facebook and Instagram at To Dine For TV.

We also have a podcast, To Dine For the podcast is available on apple podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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