The Chavis Chronicles

>> I'm Dr.

Benjamin F. Chavis Jr., and this is "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> The law does give you a lot of rights to do almost anything you want to do with your property, but you've got to use it.

You've got to put it in writing.

It's got to be in a legally enforceable way.

You should start early.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

>> We're so pleased to have one of our nation's leading estate attorneys.

Attorney Ethel Mitchell, welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

I'm honored to be here.

>> You were born in Texas.

>> Born in Texas, raised in Louisiana.

I went to Fisk -- went to St.

Mary's Academy in New Orleans and then Fisk University.

>> Fisk in Nashville, Tennessee, a great HBCU.

>> Yes, absolutely.

And then went to Columbia Law School.

Took a clerkship in Saint Thomas in the U.S.

Virgin Islands with Judge Almeric Christian, who was the first native-born federal judge in Saint Thomas, and just fell in love with the place and stayed.

Had my kids there, and then after four hurricanes blew me out of there, and came up to -- not to D.C.

first, to Texas first, which is where my family is back now, and eventually ended up in Ghana, where I studied at their law school and then came back here to work with the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation.

Was executive in charge of production for three of their conferences, and then left there 2003 and formed my own office to do wills and trusts.

That's all we do.

>> You've had such a storied journey.

>> Yes, it's been... >> What led you into the field of law?

>> Well, I didn't know any lawyers when I was growing up in Louisiana.

Harvard Law actually did a program which was really the foundation of what later became CLEO, and they brought in about 30 students from HBCUs -- what we now call HBCUs.

>> To Harvard?

>> To Harvard, for the summer.

It was a summer program.

And they introduced us to what the law was, we went to law offices, and every week we would have a dinner with a prominent lawyer.

The last dinner was with Thurgood Marshall.

>> Wow.

>> It was awesome.

It was just awesome.

And so I'm like, "Ah, maybe I should think of this."

You know, "Maybe I should think about doing this."

And that's really what first turned my attention to law.

And I realized that a lot of people complain about a lot of stuff, but lawyers can often do something about it, and that's the distinction that I liked.

I still didn't know what I was going to do with it, but at least I liked the idea that when I got out, I had a lot of leeway with what I could do.

You can do a lot of different things with a law degree, and I thought I could really help people.

>> You have a family of lawyers.

>> Yes, I married a man out of law school, you know, who was also a lawyer.

Both of our kids are lawyers.

You know, so we have very interesting conversations, shall we say?

Yeah.

>> I was gonna say, t's like a legal clinic at your dining table.

>> Yeah.

In a way, yeah, yeah.

>> So, what is the state of estate planning in the African American community?

>> Well, one of the things that we don't realize is how much money we have.

We have a lot of money, and we have a lot of property.

And so we need to take more ownership, not only of the land, but of knowing that this is for us to help other people with -- our own families, our churches, our schools -- and that we can.

So, for example, according to Black Demographics online, there are 51 million Black people -- a little bit over that, actually -- in the United States.

Over 9 million of those are baby boomers.

I'm a baby boomer.

And we are going to leave all of our stuff right here, because we've never seen anybody that died and taking they house and they money with them.

money, insurance, retirement, not just land and houses, but all of that is going to be left for somebody here.

And we need to have more of a conversation in our families and work with estate lawyers like myself to make sure that all that stuff goes where we want it to go.

Because the law does give you a lot of rights to do almost anything you want to do with your property, but you've got to use it.

You've got to put it in writing.

It's got to be in a legally enforceable way.

You should start early.

So, people tell me, "When should we get a will?"

Well, if you have a child, you need to have a will.

If you buy a house, you need to have a will.

Okay?

At least.

If you have minor children and you can afford it, you should have a trust.

Okay, and I'll give you an example.

Right now I am doing an estate of a 43-year-old lady who bought a house, and she died because she had a medical procedure and blood clots.

And just suddenly, she died.

And she didn't have children.

She didn't have a will.

And so, technically, even though she was separated at the time from her husband, her husband could have come in and took everything.

And so we're kind of working through that.

But with a will, she could have said, "This is who I want to get my stuff."

You know, I had a 39-year-old a couple of years ago.

Same thing.

A little different, in that she was divorced, she had two children, but she didn't have a will.

So we don't think about... You know, when you're young and you're buying property and you're making some money and stuff like that, we don't think about needing to have a will, but you really do need to have that stuff.

>> And if I understand you, you don't have to wait till you're a senior citizen... >> Not at all.

>> ...to talk about estate planning... >> No.

>> ...wills, trusts.

>> Especially in this day, because 40-year-olds and 50-year-olds have stuff.

They got property.

They got houses.

They may have a mortgage, but they got a house.

They, a lot of them are professionals.

They have life insurance, they have retirement, they have 401(k)s. They've got a lot of property, and they need to make sure it's going where they want it to go.

>> So, I want to go back to something you said initially about what we have in our community.

>> We have a lot.

>> Most studies show that we spend -- African Americans spend almost $2 trillion a year, annually.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> That's a large spending power.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And a lot of that money doesn't circulate more than one time in our communities.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> How do we connect financial resources that we're blessed to have with owning land?

>> Well, we do that anyway.

>> And property.

>> We have a tendency and value what we actually do, especially in the South.

A lot of Black people in the South own their homes.

They own their property.

A lot of people up here own their houses.

They own their property.

And a lot of -- especially the 80-year-olds and the 90-year-olds and the 70-year-olds, that property doesn't have a mortgage on it.

And so if you leave that property to a grandson or a granddaughter or a child, not only are you giving them shelter and financial security, you're allowing them to save and invest all the money that they're making, because they don't have to pay rent.

They don't have to pay a mortgage.

And I know some young people like that who are the new businessmen, the new entrepreneurs, because they're making money -- they might be a schoolteacher, but if they don't have to pay rent, they're saving all that money.

You see what I mean?

I have some clients, I did a trust for their mothers.

The mother died, left the house to them.

They sold their house.

They had a house in Maryland.

They sold their house and moved into their mother's house in D.C.

Saved that money from the sale of their house.

They no longer had She left money for their child for college.

So they are just saving and saving and investing and doing things.

That's the -- that's the cushion that's available to a lot of our families.

Because even though we tend to focus on what we don't have, we have a lot.

And contrary to popular opinion, people who come into my office, their parents, and a lot of the men as well as the women, are big savers.

Big savers.

It's always amazing to me how they are able to do that.

I had one client... This is years ago.

He's long dead.

He had came in.

I'll never forget.

He used to call me "daughter."

And he came in and he had like five or six houses.

And I said to him, "How'd you get all them houses?"

He said, "Well, daughter, whenever I hit the numbers, I'd go buy me a house."

I was like, "Okay, that works."

You see, so we have our ways of doing things, but we have to not just respect it, but then protect it.

And that's what estate planning does.

It protects what you have for your children, your grandchildren, your churches, you know, whatever it is that you want to protect.

That's what a will and a trust does for you.

>> Let me ask you, how early in life should one begin the process of estate planning?

>> Okay, let me tell you a few things that are very simple to do.

If you just started working, or you've been working for a while, and you have benefits at your job, you have life insurance, you have retirement.

Sometimes people have annuities and so on.

Make sure you fill out the beneficiary designations on all of those benefits, and then print out that beneficiary designation and put them in a three-ring binder.

That's the simplest, cheapest thing to do.

Go to Staples or somewhere.

Get you a three-ring binder.

Get the sleeves, the little plastic sleeves with three holes in them.

Print out statements from every account you have, every, you know, insurance policy, anything like that, with the beneficiary designations, and put them in that book.

Okay?

That's one of the first darts.

>> Beneficiary designations?

>> Exactly.

So that... Because you have to prove it.

>> A lot of people work... >> They never do it.

>> Never fill out the form.

You know, if you would ask them, "Who are your beneficiaries?

", they would have to hesitate.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And they may know in their mind who the beneficiaries are, but they have not filled out the paperwork.

>> They got to fill the paper out, they got to send it in, and they need to have a hard copy of it.

Because if you die, or when you die, I should say, they won't tell you.

You are responsible for doing this.

You're responsible for letting your family know, "Here's my life insurance policy.

I have named you as the beneficiary.

I've put you down as a beneficiary of my bank account," or retirement or life insurance or whatever it is.

So, that's a real simple thing that everybody needs to do.

Okay?

When you have minors, do not put a minor's name down as a beneficiary.

>> Why?

>> Do not.

Because they are incompetent, we call it, in the law.

A minor can't sign a check.

A minor can't go and get a mortgage.

A minor can't tell the fire department, you know, and the insurance company to pay a check to me.

Okay?

A lot of people don't realize.

They like to put their children down as beneficiaries of their life insurance policies.

But let's say you die and you left $100,000 for your children.

The company is not going to pay it to that child.

The company is not even going to pay it to that child's parent.

The company is going to pay it into the court.

The court is going to decide who is the guardian.

>> Probate court?

>> It's often the same court, but it manages money for minors.

Okay?

And it will... Sometimes their lawyers that they will appoint, the lawyer will determine or the court will determine what money is used, what the money is used for.

And when the child reaches 18, they get access to all that money, which is the last thing you want to give an 18-year-old, is $100,000.

>> So, if you're under 18, you're considered to still be a minor.

>> Yes.

>> So, you know, this is like having a financial literacy clinic on "The Chavis Chronicles."

Thank you so much for sharing... >> You're more than welcome.

>> ...your expertise.

What is your outlook?

Are we gaining ground in terms of estate planning?

>> Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm very optimistic.

I wish more people would come.

One of the beauties of estate planning, especially with trusts -- and I haven't had a chance to talk about that yet with you.

And I'll just say this.

I actually am on... One family, I'm on the fourth generation, and we've never been to court.

And it's gone from the parent to the child to the next child and to the next child, and we've never been to court.

It's all been private.

We haven't had any fights.

We've always known who was in charge, who got what, you know.

And it saves so much money when you set it up properly.

And it allows you to keep growing and growing and growing.

It makes such a difference.

And that's what we want.

And I see more and more people come in like that, yeah.

>> What is the difference between a will and a trust?

>> Okay.

That's a big question.

A trust... A trust doesn't die when you die.

Think about it like that.

A trust is established.

A lawyer -- You don't do these things yourself.

Please don't.

Okay?

A lawyer creates a trust for you.

You are your own trustee, which is a person that's in charge of it.

Property that you put into the trust is trust property.

It's managed for the benefit of somebody called a beneficiary.

So, you have a trustee, property, beneficiary.

In 90% of the cases, you are all three of those things.

So if you come to me, you say, "Ms.

Mitchell, I want my trust."

I'll do a trust.

I usually will do a revocable trust so it can be changed.

We'll put your house in it.

We'll put your non-retirement bank accounts in it.

You'll say, "Okay, Ms.

Mitchell, I want my son to be in charge and I want all of my children to be the beneficiaries when I die."

So, you die, but your trust doesn't die.

So, you've already said, "My son's in charge."

He doesn't have to go to court.

He doesn't have to be appointed.

You've already designated him.

He walks into the bank.

My father named me as the successor trustee."

His name goes on the bank accounts.

The trust says what's to be done with your property.

If you said deed this property to this person, deed this property to this person, pay this, whatever.

He comes into the office, we do the deeds, he signs it the deeds.

And this is property anywhere in the country, you should know.

You can live in D.C.

but have property in North Carolina, Mississippi.

It doesn't matter.

If we've put that property in your trust, which means a deed into your trust, then we can deed it out without having to go through probate or anything else.

If you said, "I've got a $100,000 policy and I got a grandchild or great-grandchildren, and I want that money to be held for their education."

A lot of grandparents do that.

Okay?

So, you'll say in your trust, create a trust when I die for my great-grandchild or for my great-grandchildren, however you want it to go.

You defined the property that goes into that trust.

It can either be a certain number, like an insurance policy, or it could be half of my money, or whatever.

And he puts that money into a separate account.

It gets its own EIN number.

That money is then invested and reinvested.

Let's say your great-grandchild is two years old.

And he -- you've told him, "Only spend this for education."

So, by the time that child reaches 18, when that money is ready to be used, if you put $100,000 in there, he could easily have $500,000, $1 million, whatever it might be.

And that money is not available to that child's creditors.

It's only to be used the way you said it's to be used, you see.

It can continue for generations.

A will does not.

A will still has to go to court.

People think they don't, but they do.

You have to be appointed, and then it distributes everything out.

You know, your will has to give it all out, and it's all done through the court at that point.

Yes.

>> That's a big difference.

>> It's a huge difference.

>> Shouldn't all people be taught this?

>> Well, there should be.

No question about it.

>> Financial literacy is an issue.

>> That would be great.

Yeah.

That's why I do a lot of presentations at churches, at sororities and fraternities, at private organizations, because I think everybody needs to know this.

>> I understand the finality of a will.

Can a trust live on for four, five, six generations, or does it have to be amended?

>> Number one, if you have a revocable trust and you die, it can no longer be amended.

It becomes irrevocable at that time.

There is... >> Who determines if it's irrevocable?

>> The law does.

The law says if you have a revocable trust, the person who set it up when they die, it can no longer be changed.

>> Okay.

>> Okay?

And so, that's a good and a bad.

It's a good thing in the sense that because it's irrevocable... Let's say it's your child who's going to get whatever is in the trust.

That child's creditors can't get to it until it is given to them.

So, very wealthy people have enough money in their trust where they just buy the house for the child, they buy the condo for the child, and the child goes out and gets a judgment against them.

That judgment creditor can't attach that house, because it's in the trust for them.

So it has a lot of benefits.

Okay?

There used to be a -- or, in some states, there's still a statute that limits how many generations it can go.

But even then, it was like two or three generations.

Now, you know, lawyers are very creative, and people with money are very creative, and so it's not unusual for you to have a trust for your son, and then your son has a trust for his children.

And so, you know, it's kind of... We can make... We can keep it in there for a while, a good long while.

>> I think the key is just having a competence in what your options are.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And we need more estate planners like you.

>> Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

>> To kind of wake people up.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> I'm from the South.

I'm from North Carolina.

And I can tell you... too many of our families don't have wills, don't have trusts.

>> Yeah.

>> A lot of the family probably winds up in probate, which a third is taken... >> Yeah.

>> ...just because they don't have either of those documents.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And so, there's a project called Black Land Loss, which monitors the loss of land.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> Not because somebody is selling it -- because they haven't paid taxes, they don't have, you know... You know what I'm talking about.

>> Yes, I do.

>> From your perspective, how can we turn some of this around?

>> Well, there are people that are trying to work with that.

There's a young lady, Mavis Gragg, who is from North Carolina, and she is working with exactly that project.

Okay?

The most important thing, though, is everybody who has any part in that land needs to have a will, and that will needs to say who their share goes to.

And then if you can get the families together, come up with some sort of a plan for the future.

Um, what I... I was telling you during the break that what is happening is we are using land the way it's used in Ghana or in West Africa, where land belongs to the family.

It's never... It never belongs to an individual.

And you know who your family is, so you don't have to worry about it over there.

But even there, a good friend of mine was here not so long ago, and he was saying that because all of them have left the land, they're creating a... What do you call it?

Like a corporation.

And they're putting the land in that corporation.

They are going to sell the land because none of them want... They're outside of the country now.

And then they're going to invest that money from the sale of the land and pay it out to different members of the family according to their share, you know, in the property, in the family land.

I had people in Saint Thomas that did that.

They had a corporation, and it worked very well for them.

Yeah.

>> Attorney Ethel Mitchell.

>> Yes, sir.

>> Thank you for your leadership.

And thank you for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Oh, my pleasure.

Thank you.

Really and truly.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.