The Chavis Chronicles

>> I'm Dr.

Benjamin F. Chavis Jr., and this is "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> If you're a cultural strategist, you're thinking about the mechanisms that we need to be able to turn those stories and those values and those lessons into actual behavior change.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the US economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

>> We're very honored to have one of our nation's leading cultural strategists, Anasa Troutman.

Welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

>> Now, you come from a family that was not only culturally sensitive... >> Yes.

>> ...but culturally active and transformative.

>> Yeah.

>> When I met your father, it was in Montclair, New Jersey.

>> That's right.

>> So, tell us what you're doing.

How do you get from Montclair, New Jersey, to Memphis, Tennessee?

>> Man, that's a long road.

But I feel like the Montclair part of my story is really important because my parents, in a moment that everyone was asking, "Is it civil rights or Black power?"

their answer was kind of both and kind of neither because, for them, they took a cultural approach.

For our family and all the families that we were kind of in community with, it was always about culture.

It was always about our core values, always about who we took care of, always about what we ate, how we greet each other, what we listen to.

You know, the art and the storytelling was so important in my house.

>> African culture, African-American culture?

>> Absolutely.

Well, you know, my name is Anasa.

My sister's name is Nandi.

My cousins are Taiwo and Tamba.

So, like, there was a group of adults who decided they were going to fortify us young people with an identity, with a West African identity, knowing that we were in America, understanding that, you know, we were piecing things together.

But they wanted to give us something to hold on to, and they would tell us, "You are special, you are powerful, you are important because of this lineage and not in spite of it."

And so we grew up believing and knowing and understanding our power because of our heritage and because of our ancestors.

And I carry that with me today.

>> So, you have culturally sensitive parents.

>> I had culturally powerful parents.

[ Laughs ] Very much so, very much so.

>> So, you have a sister?

>> I do have a sister.

My sister is way better than me.

She's like -- You think I'm smart?

My sister is a genius.

She's actually about to become the president of the American Public Health Association, just like our father was.

And so she's taken up his -- >> What's her name?

>> Her name is Nandi Marshall.

She's a dean over at Georgia Southern in Statesboro, Georgia.

And she is very much in service to our world through the lens of public health, absolutely.

Absolutely.

>> Great.

So, now, you are the founder... >> Of The BIG We.

>> ...of The BIG We.

>> The BIG We.

>> Explain that.

First of all, how'd you come up with that name?

And what is the mission of The BIG We?

>> So, The BIG We started off as a podcast because I just wanted to have a conversation.

I just was not satisfied with the level -- >> In Memphis?

>> Well, at the time, I was not living in Memphis.

I was living in Nashville.

And so it was just like I wanted to be able to have an outlet, to have a different kind of conversation that was grounded in culture and storytelling, but very much about people's everyday material condition.

And so we were talking about the podcast like, "Well, what are we trying to do?

And someone said, "We need to make something that can help you get to the bigger we."

And I said, "That's it!

'The BIG We.'

That is the name of the podcast."

And the brand just worked so well that I decided to expand it from a podcast into an entire organization and body of work.

And I moved -- >> So, from Nashville to Memphis.

>> Yeah.

And I went to Memphis not thinking I was gonna move there forever.

I was supposed to go there for six months to be able to executive-produce and co-write a musical about the sanitation worker strike of '68 to celebrate MLK50, which was this big commemoration in Memphis about the 50th anniversary of King's assassination.

>> The sanitation strike... >> Yes.

>> ...of 1968.

>> Yes.

>> The American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees.

>> Yep.

>> Sanitation workers.

>> That's right.

>> Back in the day, they were called garbage workers.

>> Yes.

>> And I still remember these signs.

>> "I am a man."

>> "I am a man."

>> Yes.

>> That were carried.

And a lot of the organizing came out of a place called Clayborn Temple.

>> That's right.

>> Tell us about your relationship with Clayborn Temple.

>> Yeah.

Well, I came to Clayborn Temple for the first time -- I think it was in 2016.

I was there just doing some fundraising in Memphis, and someone told me I should go and see what they were doing because someone had purchased Clayborn from the AME Church and they were working to renovate it.

And I walked in the room, and I was overtaken with the energy of all the stories that had happened in that building.

And I just was like, "There's something really special about this place, and these stories want to be told."

And I wanted to be a part of it.

And at the time, I didn't know what that meant.

I didn't really understand the history in the way that I do now.

But it just -- You know, you have a moment in your life when you just know, like, "Something is happening, and my life is about to change."

And I had that moment when I walked in Clayborn Temple.

And a year later, I ended up being brought in to do this musical to celebrate King's life.

And, you know, when you're writing a musical about something that actually happened, there's a lot of research involved.

And so I was talking to a lot of elders.

I was reading a lot of stories.

I was watching -- I watched the movie about the last year of King's life.

I read a book about the last year of his life.

And I just -- It just sent me down a rabbit hole of stories that I had never heard before.

>> So, one of the things you do as a cultural strategist -- >> Yes.

>> You're a writer.

>> Yes.

>> You write scripts.

You write plays.

>> Yes, the whole thing about being a cultural strategist, it's about thinking about where you want to go.

What are the stories you need to tell to help people get there?

And then what do you do once the story is told?

Once people have said, "Okay, I hear your story, I like this story, I feel it," so like, now what are we gonna do about it?

Because I can show you a movie that can make you cry and make you want to be different, and then the next day you can be like, "Wow, that was a great movie," and go back to normal, right?

But if you're a cultural strategist, you're thinking about the mechanisms that we need to be able to turn those stories and those values and those lessons into actual behavior change, for one person, for a family, for a neighborhood, for a whole world, for a galaxy, whatever it is.

>> You know, there's a debate right now about who controls whose narrative.

>> I understand.

>> We're gonna get to that... >> I can't wait to talk about that.

>> But I'm gonna get back to -- I was a young staff on the Southern Christian Leadership Conference... >> I love that.

>> ...in North Carolina at the time, and, in fact, Dr.

King was supposed to leave Memphis and come to Charlotte, North Carolina, that also had a sanitation strike.

>> I never heard that story.

I love that.

I want to know more about that when we have time.

>> Absolutely.

>> I do.

>> But the thing is, Clayborn Temple... >> Yes.

>> ...which was owned by the AME, then was privately owned -- >> Yes.

>> So, tell me how you wound up getting... >> I know.

That's wild, right?

>> ...control of this facility.

>> Well, I think that what happened to me is that the stories that I read led me to the story of a man named Robert Church.

And Robert Church was the first Black millionaire in America who lived in Memphis, who was formerly enslaved.

And there is a wild story about him being on a riverboat during the Civil War with this man who was his owner, but also his father, but also his commander in the Civil War.

And the legacy of Robert Church was that he built this huge real-estate development legacy.

His daughter was Mary Church Terrell, who was the most important -- >> Very famous.

>> Very famous Black suffragette.

He was Ida B. Wells' patron.

He was WC Handy's patron.

He basically saved the city of Memphis after the yellow fever.

Like, he was -- Like, there is no Memphis, there is no Mid-South, there is no Black wealth in that region without this person.

>> Are there books written about him?

>> There's one book written about him.

I will send it to you.

But I think there needs to be a movie about him because if you read his story, it is like thing after thing after thing.

There's, like, the race riot during his life.

He got shot in the head.

There's, like, so many things that this man endured.

And ultimately, after he passed, his son took over his legacy.

And his son was like, "My father's legacy was about Black wealth.

My legacy is gonna be about Black political power."

And he became the most powerful Black political influencer in the entire country.

If you wanted to be president, you had to come to Memphis.

And so he ended up in a business relationship who really ran Memphis.

His name was EH Crump.

Some people know him as "Boss Crump."

And ultimately, what happened is that E.H.

Crump seized all the family land, burned their house down to the ground, sold the land to the federal government, and built the second-ever public-housing project in the country on that land that was built and raised up by the first Black millionaire.

And when I read that story, it was such an instant connection for me to the loss of land and wealth through Robert Church's family and the folks who were living in that neighborhood... >> Sounds like another Tulsa.

>> ...to the sanitation workers.

And I was like, "Whoa, this legacy is not just about restoring the vision of the sanitation workers and King.

This is all the way back.

This is, like, a generational story.

And in the moment that I read that story, I knew that I was gonna stay in Memphis maybe for the rest of my life."

And I took over at Clayborn Temple, and then the man who owned it decided that he didn't want to do the work anymore.

He just was like, "I don't want to do this.

I changed my mind."

And so it took me about six months, but I was able to raise the money and purchase the building from him and build the organization around it.

And so that was in 2019.

We purchased like three months before the pandemic.

And so this is how we got here.

>> Congratulations.

>> Thank you.

>> Because you are a cultural strategist, but you're also an entrepreneur.

>> Apparently so.

>> And a real estate developer.

>> Apparently so!

>> And acquiring this major historic site.

>> Yeah.

It felt important to me.

It felt like -- The building had been abandoned for 20 years.

And it's right downtown.

It's like literally across the street from the FedExForum where our beloved Memphis Grizzlies play.

And it's too big of a building and too important of a story to just be sitting there languishing like that, when it could be leveraged for all the things that were never complete, from the sanitation worker and from King's legacy.

You know, like, a lot of folks feel like Memphis is a place where King's legacy died, but I don't believe that.

I think the reason why he came to Memphis and the people and the vision that he saw for the city and how the city could be leveraged for the entire country -- I think that that's still there.

And I think that people were too -- too deeply in their grief to be able to do that work.

But I think that it's time.

It's been over 50 years.

It's time for us to pick that mantle back up and complete the work.

>> After acquiring this property, after working with your organization, The BIG We -- You mentioned earlier about how the history of Memphis is about things burning down.

>> Yes, it is.

>> So, first you had arson at your home.

>> I did.

>> And then sometime later, there was arson that almost destroyed Clayborn Temple.

Tell us about these fires.

>> There was actually three fires.

So, the first one was at my home.

It was like an early -- late Sunday night, early Monday morning.

And then two days after that -- >> Were you at home when it happened?

>> I was not at home.

It was in the middle of the afternoon was the fire at my home on -- And I had -- I was -- No, it was a Saturday.

So, there was a fire at my house.

I was out shopping.

I was not at home.

I just got an alert on my phone, "Something is happening," on your phone.

You know how the alarm system tells you on your phone.

And I turned on the camera and there was smoke everywhere and firemen running across my lawn and I raced home immediately.

And of course you think -- I'm like, "Oh, this is bad, but this is just a house.

There's nobody in it.

It's just some stuff.

It's cool.

We'll get past it.

It'll be fine."

And then two days later, there was -- My sister and I -- My father left us a piece of land on a mountain in East Tennessee called Sassafras Ridge.

And I got a text message from our neighbor saying that there was a fire on the mountain two days later.

And I was thinking to myself, like, "Wow, this is a really crazy coincidence.

I must have really terrible luck right now.

Or there's something I'm supposed to be paying attention to learning from this."

And then two weeks later, Clayborn Temple was set afire, and it burned almost fully to the ground.

The entire sanctuary was completely destroyed.

The fire burned very quickly and very hot and very big.

And so I think that we all suspected that it was arson, but of course we didn't have any real evidence.

And then the ATF came back a few weeks later and said that the fire at Clayborn was arson.

There was not a lot of investigation into the fire at my house 'cause at the time we thought that it was an isolated incident.

And so I ended up hiring a private fire investigator to go back to my home.

I would not allow the the contractors to do any work.

I made them keep everything as it was.

And so we sent an investigator over, and then they also said that the fire at my house was also arson.

We haven't been able to make the same determination out on the land because there's no house on that land, so it was really just a brush fire.

But, you know, I think that the general suspicion is that all three of them were arson.

>> Right.

Three fires.

>> 16 days.

>> Why do you think you were targeted by an arsonist or arsonists?

>> Yeah.

It's funny.

Like, people use that language, like, "You were targeted," and it still doesn't sit right with me because I'm not somebody who... I'm a -- You know, I'm very kind and loving, and I'm really, really, like -- When I say our organization's called The BIG We, I mean it.

I think that every single human being should be a part of the beloved community.

And I live that in my everyday life.

And so it's wild to me that I've been targeted.

It's still hard to get used to.

And there's still, you know, the loss of personal safety.

And, you know, all the things that come with being someone who's targeted is a lot to deal with.

But if you ask me -- And I don't know the answer, right?

'Cause I don't know who did this.

I don't have any clue why they did it.

But it's, um... Our work was working.

You know, like, we talk a lot about the revival of the Memphis economy.

We talk a lot about economics across the South.

We talk a lot about making room for more people to participate in the economy, leveraging our stories for the ownership of people whose stories those are.

So, we're writing a play about the sanitation workers.

We want the descendants of the sanitation workers to own that story, right?

>> Today, what is the percentage of African -Americans that live in Memphis?

>> 65%.

We are now, per capita, the largest -- the "Blackest" city in America.

We overtook Detroit about two years ago.

>> So you're working... >> Yes.

>> ...in one of the cities that has the largest concentration of African-Americans... >> Yes, sir.

>> ...in America.

>> Yes, sir.

>> And in over a month's time... >> Yes.

>> ...your personal home, land that your family owned, and the Clayborn Temple that you owned... >> Yeah.

>> ...all burned.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah, that's more than a coincidence.

>> It is more than a coincidence.

I -- We -- One of my friends did like -- went online and told me it's like a one-in-30-billion chance for one person to have three fires in two weeks.

>> Okay, now, in the wake of these fires... >> Yes.

>> ...how are you?

I'm better now.

I'm better now.

It's the hardest thing that I've ever had to experience, honestly, obviously because it does seem as if I'm being targeted.

There's safety concerns for my personal safety.

I've had to move twice.

I have a bodyguard when I'm at home.

I can't just -- You know, my life is completely different now than it was six months ago.

And it is, um... It's sad to me that this is -- You know, that this is what's still happening, right?

>> Well, you know, unfortunately... >> Yes.

>> ...while we've made a lot of progress... >> Yes, we have.

>> ...there's still remnants... >> Yes.

>> ...of racial hatred... >> There is.

>> ...racial violence.

>> Yes.

>> And Memphis means so much not only to the people who live in Memphis... >> Yeah.

>> ...but to our nation and to our world.

>> Yes.

>> We're always looking for the good news to come out of Memphis because 1968 was so tragic.

>> Was so tragic.

>> And consequential.

>> And I think that some of the remnants of Dr.

King's assassination is still living in Memphis.

I think when I first moved to Memphis, there was a -- there still felt like a lot of sadness and a lot of grief and folks who weren't able to move forward.

And I think -- I think the MLK50 celebration actually did something for the city and gave people, like, a moment to be able to reflect and say, like, "Well, what are we going to do now?"

And I think that the city has changed a lot since 2018.

And, um, you know, for me, the loss of Clayborn is about much more than the loss of the building.

I mean, I love that building.

I've committed my life to that building, but also it is the stories of the thousands and thousands of people who have worshiped there, who have gotten married there, who have been christened there, who have been ordained there, who have -- You know, I just feel like, you know... >> Is the plan to rebuild?

>> Oh, 100%.

It was never a question.

I -- The fire -- It took them a long time to put the fire out, and I sat out in front of the building for most of the day, literally, like, on and off, grieving and crying and then thinking and planning about what we were gonna do next because for me there is no option other than to rebuild, for many reasons.

But I think, again, the vision that Dr.

King had for Memphis and for our nation is still very much alive and can still very much be seated in Memphis.

And I think one of the reasons why Memphis is so important is because, culturally, so much of the richness of American culture was born in Memphis.

So many of our stories, so many of our music forms, so many of our pioneers and innovators are in and were from Memphis.

And so I think Memphis has a very important role to play in our country and our world.

And I think that Clayborn Temple needs to be a part of that.

I think because it is the last place where King worked, because it is really, like, this really beautiful place where the conversation about class and economics was coming into the civil rights conversation in a very meaningful way, I don't think that we can afford, especially right now, to be able to let that go.

And so we are capturing all of these stories and harnessing them in our work moving forward.

And so we will have -- Not only will the building be rebuilt, but we'll have three very powerful things happening in the building at once when we reopen.

The first thing is we're going to be building an immersive exhibit because I want people to come and learn the stories and see -- you know, read all the things, but I want them to actually come and experience the story.

So, you'll come to Clayborn Temple, and we'll say, "Hello, Dr.

Chavis.

Today your name is TL Jones, and for the next two hours, you're gonna have an experience about what it was like to be in the sanitation workers strike."

And when you will leave, not only will you know the story, but you'll also know how to take those lessons back to your own neighborhood.

So, that's the first thing we're gonna do, which I'm super excited about.

The second thing is we're gonna reopen the sanctuary, so there will be an opportunity for us to do all that storytelling, to do all that community gathering, to do all that visioning together in the sanctuary space.

And it will be rebuilt exactly like it was on April the 4th, 1968.

It's gonna be spectacularly gorgeous.

And then the thing that I'm most excited about is that we're building a center for innovation around economics and culture because, to me, this intersection of culture and economy is, like, our most powerful, exciting way to move our economy forward, specifically in the South, where we have all these stories that have not been told, that have not been exercised, that have not been commodified.

Right?

And so I think, for us, our focus is in, how do we tell the most important stories to be able to move our country forward, but how do we do that in a way that our communities retain ownership and can actually benefit long term?

And the thing that I love about our model the most is that we can replicate it across many, many, many, many communities.

So, what works in Memphis, from a cultural-strategy standpoint, also works in East Tennessee in the holler, in the mountains, right?

Because our communities that are experiencing poverty in America are not just Black communities.

There are so many folks who are experiencing poverty.

And what Dr.

King wanted us to do was to have a multiracial movement to end poverty.

And that's what I think that we can do with this work.

>> That's a good segue back.

All of what you said... >> Yes.

>> What is the mission of The BIG We?

>> Oh, yeah, so, our work is to be able to leverage our cultural assets for economic, civic, and narrative power so people can own their own stories, own their own neighborhoods, own their own communities, have self-determined lives, so that we can live in beloved community.

That is the ultimate goal, is for us to have everyone experience safety, joy, love, and abundance in their own neighborhoods and their own homes.

>> Dr.

King gave life and definition to the concept... >> 100%.

>> ...of the beloved community.

>> That's right.

>> Anasa Troutman... >> Yes?

>> ...you've been through a lot.

>> I have.

>> You've seen a lot.

>> I have.

>> Today, what gives you your greatest hope?

>> You know, what gives me my greatest hope is to know that the people who came before me dealt with much worse, with way fewer resources.

I know that where we are, what we have in front of us -- the rebuilding of Clayborn Temple, the telling of these stories, the opening of ways for people to be able to experience their own abundance -- I know we can do it.

I know that we can do it.

I know it's just a matter of time.

I know it's a matter of capital.

I know it's a matter of bringing people together.

There's no doubt in my mind that it can happen.

And so my belief in the possibility of this work and of the restoration of Clayborn Temple is what gives me hope.

I have zero doubt.

That doesn't mean it won't be difficult.

It doesn't mean it will -- It's not gonna be -- It's not gonna take five days.

It's gonna take five years.

But I know it's possible, and possibility is what keeps me up in the morning.

It's what keeps me going every day.

>> Anasa Troutman... >> Yes.

[ Laughs ] >> ...thank you... >> Thank you.

>> ...for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> It's my pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

It's good to see you.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, visit our website at TheChavisChronicles.com.

Also, follow us on Facebook, X, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, we continue to look for ways to empower our customers.

We seek broad impact in our communities, and we're proud of the role we play for our customers and the U.S.

economy.

As a company, we are focused on supporting our customers and communities through housing access, small-business growth, financial health, and other community needs.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural gas and oil industry.

Learn more -- api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American -- dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.