Brian and Maggie

[dramatic music] [Brian] What is this change she's hoping to bring?

Isn't that worth finding out?

Governments aren't conducted on visions, are they?

No, no, no.

It's a reality.

I see these conversations as opportunities.

The function of a political interview isn't to provide -a platform for politicians.

-So they make a judgment about her?

It's to break apart the platform.

You don't fancy a drink, do you?

One mistake and "they" will have me out.

I reckon there's no one you won't be able to see off, Margaret.

The relationship between a Prime Minister and Chancellor needs to be very, very close.

Absolutely.

[woman] Switchboard have Brian Walden on the phone.

Um, yes.

Would you pass that on to Bernard.

[dial tone] Hold on.

We're less than two days away from the biggest interview of her career-- now maybe my career, too-- and we're wasting time on this rubbish about what?

-About 30 what?

-30 classic, identifiable ways politicians use to avoid answering questions.

The nation is waiting to hear why the most successful partnership in modern British politics has just imploded.

Listen, they've been studying television interviews... Yeah, studying!

I've been doing them.

And the most common 30 tactics used to avoid answering are... Christ on a bike, my old son!

I've heard them all!

"Minister, what about this bad thing that happened over here?"

"Well, what I think people up and down the country are more interested in, is this other thing instead."

"Look, the real point is..." Oh, "look"!

I can't stand "look"!

"Look, I'm saying, like I'm a straight-up fellow who just wants to get to the point, when really, I'm using 'look' "to pivot to an entirely different point."

"Look, I'm not going into hypotheticals now."

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

That's number 20.

With regards to Thatcher, Brian... Look, when... Look, you've got me doing it now.

-[all chuckle] -But, look, when it comes to the old girl, OK, -I... I get her to talk.

-You do.

And her mean reply rate is higher than most politicians.

She actually does want to talk, to debate.

Her main tactic is number four-- questioning the question.

All right.

Well, thank you, but... I will get her to answer.

I always get her to answer.

[dramatic music] [indistinct chatter] We wanted to raise-- "we" being myself and Geoffrey and the Governor of the Bank of England... I know who everyone is, Nigel.

Raise the issue...?

Of Europe again, Prime Minister.

And in particular, the proposed European Exchange Rate Mechanism.

[clears throat] Excuse me, the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

Well, forgive me, but I thought we were here to discuss our economic plan.

This is regarding the economy, Margaret.

Our plan is working, the great hulking liner is finally turning, but we can't deny it, it's all incredibly vulnerable.

Bound to be.

We've introduced some shock into the system, and it's still trying to... to settle.

It's about stability, Margaret.

And tying sterling to the Deutsche Mark would create that.

Chancellor, you and I know that when it comes to our ties with Europe, free trade is one thing.

Who doesn't believe in that?

I campaigned to stay in Europe during the referendum, because of trade.

But sacrificing Britain's fiscal powers, the political freedom to manage our destiny?

I think that's a little exaggerated, and the Governor of the Bank of England agrees.

That's right, Prime Minister.

With inflation rising again, currencies unstable... And Foreign Secretary, Geoffrey?

We can't risk being isolated, Margaret.

The Cabinet is pretty agreed on a single union... No, it isn't!

How can it be?

I'm the leader of the Cabinet, and I don't agree, so it is not "agreed!"

Why did you all arrive together?

Arrive?

I'm sorry?

Today, this morning, you all came over together, from the direction of the Treasury.

I saw you.

Makes me wonder if I've missed the real meeting.

Oh, Margaret, we just... we bumped into each other en route... Alan thinks that binding currencies is a ploy to creating one single currency.

Alan?

Not Alan Walters?

-Who even is he?

-He's my adviser, Nigel.

This is the Treasury, it must be led by... I've got my advisers, Nigel.

You've got your advisers.

No.

I've heard your case, and I'm vetoing it for now.

We can revisit Europe when we've got a firmer grip on the other gears of the economy, Nigel, doing what you do so well.

Domestic matters.

Yes, Prime Minister.

[door opens] What do I have to do?

It's always the same.

Patronizing, condescending... They'll leak it.

It's happened in the past, it's happening more.

Europe!

[Bernard scoffs] The old trouble at t'mill.

Now, if you gave me greater latitude, I could start getting ahead of these types of stories.

Write the stories better ourselves, with those friends in the press eager to hear it.

Those who appreciate what we're trying to achieve, yes.

-[drum roll] -[host] The recipient of the Richard Dimbleby Award this year can only be described as the true master of the long-form interview, television's chief interrogator, Brian Walden.

[cheering and applause] Thank you.

Thank you.

My, oh, my... I, uh... I stand here on the shoulders of giants.

Um, we should be proud in this country that we've made the political interview a more effective instrument of liberty than any other peoples in the democratic world.

And in a changing world, it's something which should be protected and celebrated.

And that, I suppose, is all I've tried to do.

-So, thank you.

-[cheering and applause] [David] Why would you stop now, Brian?

You'll miss it.

We did a great thing, Coxy.

You did, the great strategus.

No one's doing long, forensic interviews any more.

Now, it's all breakfast TV bollocks.

Cozy chit-chats on the sofa, five minutes long.

Questions unanswered.

Politicians spouting their own agendas.

I mean, we came on air in a time of chaos, confusion... Yeah, it needed dissecting.

I'm looking forward to retirement, nice little column in The Sunday Times.

Enjoy the new home over the water where I can read, play chess... Avoid tax.

If one more person prints that I-- I did not move to Guernsey for the tax.

It was the... -Look... -Food.

-[laughs] -Anyway, it turns out I was all right at all this after all.

A good interviewer in the end.

[Brian chuckles] Goodnight, Brian.

[reporter] Well, she's done it.

The first Prime Minister in over 150 years to win three consecutive terms.

Given the strength of the economy, it's frankly increasingly hard to imagine anyone else in charge.

[upbeat rock music plays] [murmuring] Mr Speaker, I am reliably informed that my Budget speech will have a claim to a place in the history books!

[all laugh] The last un-televised Budget speech.

This Government has already reduced the top rate of income tax from the absurd 83%, under Labour, to 60%.

Now, I believe that it's time for a further reduction in the top rate.

I propose to abolish all higher rates of tax!

[cheering] I'm sure she won't be long, Brian.

All good, don't fret.

[footsteps approaching] -Brian!

-Margaret.

-It's been a while.

-It has.

How are the family?

How's retirement?

All good.

Print is a lot less exhausting than television.

Well, shall we get started?

Sit.

Sit, please.

Are you not taking notes?

Oh, I thought we'd start, um, with a bit of general chit-chat, background.

You know, like the old days... Except that I want a few things out there, as it were, with your help.

What's mine is yours.

Um... So, quite the Budget fireworks.

Yes, Nigel is a genius at all that, isn't he?

And our shared plan is going pretty well-- record growth.

Yes, of course, but it's all a bit relentless, isn't it?

Exhausting, even.

Don't you worry the public will become weary of this constant sense of mission, of battling on all fronts?

Don't you yearn for calmer periods?

-For a for a rest, even?

-A rest?

No, Prime Minister, this century's had a bigger impact on the nation, bar Attlee and Churchill.

That's... That's some legacy.

Yes, I'm very, very pleased to have increased the wealth of the nation, and of those individuals willing to work hard and claim their share of it.

Well, you're now a millionaire yourself, aren't you, Brian?

Ah, well, um... Uh, yes, I am.

I heard, off the record, that you took a line out of Nigel's speech?

Something about Europe and fixing currencies?

Fixing currencies?

Goodness, that does sound awfully dry.

No, on the future, on what's coming up.

Water privatization.

There you are.

Private companies competing, finding inefficiencies... Well, then, on the future, um, who do you see as your natural successor?

Off the record, I don't.

What?

I don't see one.

Do you?

Well, the other architects of Thatcherism-- Nigel, Geoffrey... The other?

I think the clue is in the name, isn't it?

Well, look, on a personal level, Margaret, I worry that if you are less connected to the party, less available to your colleagues, to everyone, than you used to be... Less available?

How am I less available?

Well, you remain this compelling, almost bewildering fascination to people.

To me, still, you're like this wild, exotic animal in a zoo.

Well, I mean, as you know, Parliament has caved and is now letting cameras into the Commons.

The lens, scrutinizing us, as we tussle and debate.

You don't get much more available than that, now, do you?

Anyway, anything you can do to plant a few of those flags for the wobblers.

The wets.

[typewriter keys clacking] [Brian, voiceover] I have interviewed the Prime Minister many times over the years.

She currently sees no successor, and will want to lead her party into the 1991 election.

Even 1995.

Yet, the Margaret Thatcher I know is not the one I read about.

I find her frank, without snobbery and willing to tolerate a fair bit of leg-pulling.

I've never met this other Thatcher, the archfiend who has no human feelings and cannot be contradicted.

Caroline, I'd like another session with Veronique today.

Yes, thank you.

[receiver clicks] [Brian, voiceover] She always denies it, but the accusation that she is ill-tempered and authoritarian does wound her, and drives this passionate woman back inside herself.

I worry that such repression leads one toward greater stubbornness and imbalance, there to mask a deep loneliness within.

[dramatic music] [bubbling] [cheering] Bravo!

[cheering and applause continue] What a decade!

What a woman!

-[cheering] -What a leader!

-[all] Hear, hear!

-Yes!

Never before!

You'd have to go back to the 1800s!

And the way she has smashed through!

[cheering] Thank you, Bernard, let's not make a song and dance about it.

Forgive me, I'm zipping it.

It's closed.

[Margaret] No, and, actually, joking aside, I mean it.

Because, you see, anniversaries are fun, they're very nice, but they're naturally focused on the past.

That place where all of our predecessors -have been determined to return.

-[man] That's right!

Well, I'm not going to live there!

I'm only interested in the future.

[man] Well said!

-To a fourth term!

-[cheering] -Maybe a fifth!

-[cheering] Because, you see, you can change a country in a decade.

-Think of Britain in 1979... -[all agreeing] ...a place that had lost its convictions, was exhausted, couldn't keep the lights on.

And now look.

That's what we survey, from these giddy heights: the ruins of socialism.

[cheering] There is still plenty to do.

So, yes, chin-chin, but let's get on and do it!

[cheering] Ten and not out.

Bravo, Maggie!

And here's to ten more years.

[cheering] [Margaret] How lovely to see you... Alan sodding Walters.

That was pretty bloody confident of him.

Tactical, more like.

Who the devil does he think he is?

Part-time adviser, playing the fucking favorite.

Well, I could schedule a "wind your neck in" meeting, if we're at the "wind your neck in" stage.

Do whatever you like.

She always does.

...doing the rounds again, rather on contravention of official policy... I think she's losing her instinct.

The way she speaks, behaves... Well, we should consider giving her a gentle ultimatum.

Europe-- we want further in or we resign.

In Madrid, next European Council.

Stand up to her.

Yes, I better had.

Look at you, Alan.

Professor of Economics, born into poverty, left state school with nothing.

Kesteven and Grantham Girls School.

Westminster.

Winchester.

Eton.

Haberdashers' Aske's.

Westminster.

Their problem is they think the job is done, no more hard choices.

You know he's trying to link the pound to European currencies?

It's been unofficially shadowing the Deutschmark for the past 11 months.

Nigel's doing.

Yes, I know.

Yes.

Well, let's talk now.

Oh, so good of you to come.

I'm never going to forget.

Thank you so much.

Hello.

[dramatic music] Fucking snake in the grass.

...you were there, because you really helped me.

[hum of conversation] -Prime Minister.

-Do sit.

How was Kuala Lumpur?

Geoffrey, I'm going to have a little move around of people.

You've served your country well, but as the Government negotiates its new relationship with Europe, I think fresh blood is needed in the Foreign Office.

I should very much like to offer you the role of Deputy Prime Minister in the reshuffle.

Margaret... Geoffrey, don't do the quiet voice, just speak up.

If this is about Madrid, we just feel strongly that further integration... Geoffrey, I have won three consecutive elections, the only person to have done so in 160 years.

I don't know who I have still need to convince or why I need to convince them that I might-- might-- just might know what's best for this country.

But clearly I do.

Do you accept your new role?

I fear for you, Margaret.

This habit of just hammering away at people... You've been so good at vanquishing your opponents that you've run out of enemies.

And I worry, in looking for them, you might create them.

Do you accept?

I will serve the Government in whatever capacity.

Prime Minister.

Coxy!

Hiding under a bridge like a troll.

How are you doing, my old son?

I'm good, you know.

Um, shall we?

You see this?

Yes, I still have all my faculties.

"Is it curtains for this instrument of democratic dialogue?"

The franchise is up for renewal, and LWT is down on its public service quota.

The amount of money they would throw at you to come back.

I have enough money, David.

-How much?

-And also, how does this sound?

-[lighter clicks] -The Walden Interview.

[chuckles] That's a bit gauche, isn't it?

Yeah, well, it doesn't have to be that.

Well, hold on, just got to get used to it.

Come on.

Let's get all the pointy heads back together again, proper forensic interviews once more.

Things are shifting, Brian, they're not as certain as they once were, She's not.

Surely you can see that.

Bernard Ingham called.

Thatcher will do an interview.

So long as it's you.

[upbeat rock music] Brian.

-[cheering and applause] -Oh, no... No, please, please.

Yes, yes... Ah, the pointy heads!

-The nerds have retaken Rome.

-[all laugh] Your revised diary for the rest of the week, tonight's thing at the Royal Society and the Walden interview Saturday-- recorded in the morning, going out Sunday.

Mm-hm.

Good.

And?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer's here, Margaret.

We weren't due to meet till 9.45.

Yes.

I know.

Tell him I'll be down in a minute.

-Morning, Nigel.

-Morning.

I wasn't expecting you so early.

Shall we?

Right, come on in.

Why don't you sit down.

[Nigel] I will stand, thank you.

I'm afraid I have come to the view that my position is untenable.

[Margaret] Oh, goodness, Nigel, are we really going to go through this all over again!

How many more times?!

[Nigel] My authority as Chancellor is being undermined again... [Margaret] Nobody is undermining you, Nigel!

It's complete nonsense!

[Nigel] As regards to Walters, either I'm in charge... [dramatic music] [reporter] What do you think the mood of the backbenchers is today?

The mood is one of, uh, what a mess!

[reporter 2] And one backbench Tory decided not to go along with the Thatcher backer game plan of praising the wonderful new team, and said instead that Mrs Thatcher herself must go.

Mrs Thatcher's rendered the most tremendous services to the Party and to the nation.

And I...I said, this is now the time for her to render the supreme service and, actually, to step down.

It can only be downhill for her from now on.

[David] And we just happen to have her on air in two days.

So, we're tossing everything out, then?

No, not everything, not the substance of it, -but we do need... -No need for this.

We're going to have to open hard with who is to blame, him or her?

We've been hitting backbenchers with the phones.

What, literally?

There's a phrase that keeps coming up over and over-- "off her trolley."

I mean, they genuinely think she might be losing it.

Well, I'm not about to level that at the Prime Minister.

It's bloody rude, for a start.

And sexist, if you ask me.

"Women of a certain age..." Yeah.

Uh, David?

Thoughts, approach?

Well, this is now about her character.

When a single individual becomes an "-ism," so embedded in the fabric of the country that frankly her character has become the character of the country, that we are all, like it or not, Thatcherites now.

Well, shouldn't we know a little bit more about who that person is and how she is, and... what is she becoming?

And like it or not, we happen to have just about the only person in the media who got -anywhere near to knowing her.

-[phone rings] -Very well.

-[Sue] David, phone call.

We're doing a program about her, about who she is.

So, let's get going again.

-Hello, Cox.

-Where do we start?

How do we get into this, because...?

[shushes] Ingham!

[Bernard] Look, it's not going to work for us.

-We did ask for flowers.

-Flowers?

Dressing on the set.

It looks too hard.

-No... We never.

-She wants flowers.

She finds them calming.

Or in her eye-line at least.

No, we don't have flowers on this show, Bernard.

Vigorous and fair analysis, yes, but not flowers.

Sorry, I must insist or we might have to... [line disconnects] Is it me, or did I kept hearing the word "flowers"?

They're trying to soften her.

Won't work.

They're panicking.

[Sue] They'll pull it.

She won't want to lose face.

She'll do it.

She will.

[David] Because she trusts you, Brian.

Well, it happens to all of them, in the end, doesn't it?

Caesar, Napoleon-- power corrupts.

What do they say, after seven years they all basically go mad?

Maybe she has lost her instincts.

I mean, look at the Poll Tax-- madness.

From a levy on property to a tax on individuals?

A pensioner paying the same as a duke, that's not the Thatcherism I understood.

It's the Thatcherism I understood.

Oh, OK, go on.

Sorry, but I know you, historically... No, let's thrash it out, like we always do.

Are you not better off now than you where ten years ago?

Well, define "better off" and... Money in your pocket.

OK, well, I bet I'm not half as better off as those at the very top who've... Ah, right, I see, so it's class envy, I see.

I am agreeing with you.

The Poll Tax, there's always been a blindness to some of the losers of the project, the victims... Victims of what?

Of affluence?

Jesus Christ, from the places you come from.

The Midlands, the North, stripped of their manufacturing base for a dominant... Yes... Yes.

...service industry in the South.

The efficient outstripping the inefficient.

Hard work-- reward.

The fairest system we have.

You don't believe that.

There is real pain, Brian.

I'm not saying I believe it, but we're testing it, and I would say that most ordinary folk don't mind the pain that comes with higher wages, greater consumer choice, nicer cars... [Vinay] We used to have communities.

And now we just have stuff.

There you go, don't argue.

Well, well, the man of the hour.

Here with friends.

So, you must all feel like the cat who's got the cream.

-Or the interview of the year.

-And, uh... -Oh, what timing.

-And I suppose... Yes, she's still doing it.

As if she wouldn't.

Her?

Even though it'll all be about Lawson now.

Anybody else, can you imagine?

Back out in a heartbeat, but Margaret... Do you think you actually know her?

The person.

I mean I...I claim to understand her, but I wonder if I do.

I wonder if anyone does.

Any steers would, of course, be welcome, as per.

On the record, above board.

"Off her trolley"?

[grunts] And he's your favorite for a reason.

And he's a friend.

Be a walk in the park.

If we're-- you're-- finally going to break open Thatcherism, her platform, you may need to break her first.

And what if I helped her build it in the first place?

I'm good.

I'm a good interviewer, I know what I have to do.

The music has stopped, and I'm the one in the chair.

But it's up to her.

If she wants to listen and engage and help herself, then we can move on.

Or she can hang herself.

But it's up to her.

Brian, you're not a good interviewer... ...you're an exceptional one.

[producer] Just this way, please, Prime Minister.

[Margaret] Thank you.

Margaret.

How are you?

Well, Brian, always well.

Now, I expect you'll be starting off with you-know-who and you-know-what... Hello, good morning.

...but I do hope we can then move on to something of more substance.

Like we usually do.

[producer] OK.

All set?

Roll VTR.

Standby, Studio.

Okey dokey.

Here we go, then.

Good luck.

Good afternoon.

Nigel Lawson's shock resignation has plunged the Prime Minister into the most serious political crisis of her career.

Prime Minister, many people, including many of your supporters, blame you for the resignation.

Prime Ministers don't survive their Chancellors resigning.

Now, how you respond to these claims may be of crucial significance for you personally and for your government.

And so I put it to you-- are you to blame?

Well, we have done very well together for the past six years and very well for Britain, and I think the results are clear to see.

To me, the Chancellor's position was unassailable.

I always supported him, and I said quite clearly, "Advisers are there to advise, Ministers are there to decide."

And that is how we did business, and we did so very successfully.

I tried very hard to dissuade the Chancellor from going, -but he had made up his mind.

-But... So, in the end, I had to accept his resignation and appoint someone else.

But you are not claiming, Prime Minister, and I must press you on this, clearly, Lawson did not think you were seen to agree or he would not have resigned.

He did resign.

Nigel's position, as I said to him, is unassailable.

He's... Well, he's not now, is he?

He's gone.

That is his choice.

Oof.

Wow, strike one.

Unassailable, it's not true, he wasn't, but she keeps saying it.

We don't let that slide.

Good, Brian, don't let up.

[Margaret] I tried to persuade him to stay.

I could not believe he would go when he has been such a strong Chancellor.

I was sad, but then one had to accept it and set about refashioning one's Cabinet.

But, Prime Minister, it is fairly clear, is it not, what was getting up Nigel's nose.

It was not that you had an economic adviser, Alan Walters, who quietly and silently would whisper things into your ear... Brian, I am not going to get involved in this tittle-tattle.

There are far bigger things to consider.

I'm concerned with getting on with the job, and that I shall do.

Prime Minister, I could not agree with you more about tittle-tattle.

As you well know, I have nothing to do with it myself.

He's certainly pushing it.

Some argue that the constant flow of rumor and speculation about yourself and Walters is undermining the pound and the British economy.

Now, that is what Lawson objected to.

Why did you not, when he asked you to, sack Alan Walters?

I'm not responsible for rumors.

I see many things in the press that are totally and utterly false.

Totally and utterly.

I'm not responsible for those.

Now, let us consider policy.

All right, well, then, let us consider Lawson.

[David] Well, he's going for it.

We'll move on as soon as she answers the question.

I have to take it, from the way you have put it, Prime Minister, that you blame Nigel for the resignation and not yourself.

Nigel was a very successful, brilliantly successful Chancellor.

To me his position was unassailable, and I supported him.

Now, it is the future that matters.

It is, but it is also your political position, Prime Minister, and I have to question you about that, and you know that I do.

Yes, do.

Do question, go ahead.

[Brian] So, let me ask you again, why did Nigel resign?

You said that he knew he was unassailable and he knew that you loved him, and everything was marvelous, but he resigned.

Now, people are going to want to know why.

I think that is a question you must put to him and not to me.

Well, he's coming on next week, so I will have the chance.

She didn't know.

Look at her.

But I have to put it back to you, and you know that I do, he was unassailable, you say, you were in complete agreement, you say, and everything was going well, you say, and Nigel said, "Margaret, you have got to get rid of Alan Walters."

Why didn't you and keep your Chancellor?

I am concerned with future policy... I want to come on to future policy, but I also want to clear this up, which will not just go away.

-One last question... -Look, I... Do you deny that Nigel would have stayed if you had sacked Walters?

I don't know.

Did Margaret Thatcher just admit that she doesn't know everything?

I... I don't know.

And you never, ever thought to ask him?

I did everything possible to stop him.

I was not successful.

Now, you are going on asking the same question... Minister, that is a terrible admission.

You do not know if you could have kept your Chancellor, possibly, if you had sacked your part-time adviser?

[Margaret] I wanted to keep him.

Now, that is the big fact of the matter, and I'm not going on with this.

I've not really seen Brian like this before.

That's because no one's seen her like this before.

On the ropes.

Let me put this to you, Prime Minister, um... It is a point that has always interested me and which I feel is now politically relevant.

It may well be that, in private, you will have a lusty argument and listen to the opinions of others and be only too happy to accept a suggestion if it is correct, but you never come over in public like that, ever.

You come over as someone who one of your backbenchers described as being "slightly off her trolley."

Christ, he went for it early.

Uh... 20 seconds to the ad break.

-Tittle-tattle arguments.

-These are your backbenchers.

Now, let us get on to the political argument, please.

It's not tittle-tattle, Prime Minister, When you get down to the House of Commons this week, I assure you, you will hear very little else.

We must return to this after the break.

[exhales sharply] Will you excuse me?

I want to speak to them.

This is totally unacceptable.

[sniffles, gasps] [John] Why doesn't she get it?

Why can't she bend just a little, give an inch?

Because we were taught not to... ...people like us.

They wouldn't let us in if we were weak.

What on earth is going on out there?

Betrayal.

[hum of conversation] You ready?

Yes, ready.

[producer] Right, Studio... Five, four, three, two... I suppose I must ask you one more time... You have asked me, Brian, the same question, -about five times.

-Uh, just once more.

You say that you do not know if you could have kept Lawson if Walters had gone.

Did he ask you to sack Walters?

I am not going to disclose the conversations which the two of us had together.

I'm immensely grateful for Nigel's stewardship as Chancellor.

And let's face it, Brian, he... was... Chancellor.

Uh, look, I cannot get you say, Prime Minister, what you do not want to say, but of course you are aware of what people will assume from this discussion, aren't you?

It is one of the reasons there have been trouble in the markets.

Now, Brian, you must be quite crazy.

Lord, what are they doing to each other?

Do you really think that kind of situation between Chancellor and Prime Minister could have gone on for six years?

No, but it could have for 18 months, couldn't it?

One moment... -It's what everybody thinks.

-No, they do not.

And you have gone from six years to 18 months pretty smartly.

Let's get it down to 18 days or 18 minutes, 18 seconds.

Brian, you are talking nonsense.

Now, let's get down to the way people now copy Thatcherism, as they call it, the world over.

The way they listen to us.

You could not have had all of that unless Nigel and I had worked very closely together.

We did.

Now, don't you want to face the future?

I do, and I'm ready to face it.

I am anxious to talk about the future, Prime Minister.

Uh, so, let us switch from Lawson.

Good.

There are some who'd draw a lesson in all this.

They say, "Margaret Thatcher has problems with strong, independent figures.

Look at Heseltine.

Look at even Sir Geoffrey Howe.

She just cannot get on with anyone except yes-men."

-Now, is that true?

-No.

And it is a great insult to members of my Cabinet, and you know it.

You also know, from many, many years arguing with me, -that I enjoy a good argument.

-Yes, I know.

Yes, I like strong people about me.

Yes, I'm prepared to argue anything.

Yes, I'm prepared to listen.

Why?

Because I want the result to be right.

So what you are saying again is nonsense, and you know it.

Well, then, let me try and sum you up, and you do not accept that any of the resignations from your government have arisen because you cannot handle strong men.

You like a good argument.

And in private, you'll listen to other people's opinions, but you come over as domineering, refusing to listen to anybody else.

Why?

Why can you not project publicly what you just told me is your private character?

Brian, if anyone is coming over as domineering in this interview, it's you.

Hammering things home instead of just talking about them -in a conversational way.

-Do you think so?

Yes, you are very domineering at the moment.

Now let us deal with the authoritarian thing... quietly.

The whole characteristic of the government that I lead is to limit its powers, and hand powers over to people.

It is socialism that is authoritarian.

It is socialism that says, "You must conform."

I am totally different.

It is the reverse.

What you are saying is the reverse.

[Brian] Well, actually, I was not, in fact, denying any of that.

It may be true, it may not be true.

But since you thought I was domineering you, I thought I would to let you say a lot of it, but you know what it is I am getting at.

Do you not think that it would be truer to your own nature, if you said in front of the public, who think you are dogmatic, and that you are not listening to anyone.

Why don't you say, "Well, all right, I had a quarrel with Nigel, perhaps there were faults on both sides, I accept a little bit of blame.

I should have been more sensitive to his worries."

Why don't you say that?

Neither of us is faultless.

No one is claiming that.

Of course we have faults.

Of course I take the blame for many things that go wrong.

Now and then, a little credit for things that go right.

That is life.

What is the problem?

I can almost sense the desire to accept a measure of blame trembling on your lips, but it will not quite come out.

You are having a highly artificial argument.

It is the one the country wants to hear about.

Uh, now I think the impact of this interview, Prime Minister, though you may think differently, but many people will feel that nothing that has happened has in any way shaken or chastened you.

And that will, of course, worry some of them.

They will say, "The Prime Minister remains absolutely unyielding about everything, and although she may have done a good job, it is time, perhaps, for someone who is more yielding."

-What do you say to that?

-Nonsense, Brian.

I am staying my own sweet, reasonable self... OK, wind up.

...founded on very strong convictions... Counting down to the end.

In ten... ...which are a combination of reason and emotion.

...eight... I feel passionately about personal liberty.

...five... Government is there to serve it.

I'm afraid, I must stop you there.

-No, you must not.

-I'm afraid, I must.

Strong leadership will continue.

...zero.

[producer] All right.

Thank you, everyone.

Let's clear the studio.

That is it.

Prime Minister.

Drinks?

There you are.

Thank you very much.

Now, where is that... I'll be along shortly.

[David] If you'd like to follow me this way?

[exhales sharply] [Margaret] That's no excuse.

You should keep yourself informed!

-You should do your homework.

-[man laughs] Now, did you know that the Dutch have already got rid of their foreign exchange controls?

And Luxembourg and... Yes, yes, fascinating.

Good show, Brian.

-Uh... thorough.

-Thank you.

Well, I think it's time I went.

-Thank you very much.

-Thank you.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

Lovely flowers.

So... ...wonder how many'll watch?

[dramatic music] At the end of the day, it's only telly.

[upbeat rock music] And I fear that my Right Honorable friend, the Prime Minister, increasingly risks leading herself and others astray in matters of substance, as well as of style.

It's rather like sending your opening batsmen to the crease only for them to find, the moment the first balls are bowled, that their bats have been broken before the game by the team captain.

[loud exclamations and laughter] [reporter] We interrupt this program with breaking news.

Mrs Thatcher is to resign as Prime Minister.

A short while ago, Downing Street confirmed she's to step down and will not be contesting the second ballot for the leadership.

[Simon] There is one statistic that I understand is not, however, challenged.

Over her 11 years, the gap between the richest 10% and the poorest 10% has widened substantially.

What the Honorable Member is saying is that he would rather the poor were poorer... [cheering] ...provided that the rich were less rich.

That way we'll never create the wealth for better social services, as we have done.

And what a policy!

They would rather that the gap were that...!

[laughter] Down here... that!

Not that!

That.

[cheering and applause] So long as the gap is smaller, they would rather the poor were poorer!

[all exclaiming] You do not create wealth and opportunity that way!

You do not create a property-owning democracy that way!

[cheering] I'm enjoying this.

I'm enjoying this!

It's a vision, but governments aren't conducted -on visions, are they?

-Oh, no, no, no.

It's a reality.

It's taking all the factors into account.

It's not a vision.

[upbeat music]