Amanpour and Company

>> TURNING TO THE UNITED STATES WHERE A JUDGE IN ARIZONA RULED THE STATE CAN ENFORCE A BAN ON NEARLY ALL ABORTIONS. IT FOLLOWS THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNING ROE VERSUS WADE THIS SUMMER. OUR NEXT GUEST HAS SPENT A DECADE RESEARCHING THE LIFE OF THE WOMAN AT THE HEART OF THIS LANDMARK RULING KNOWN AS JANE ROE. AUTHOR JOSH DETAILS IT ALL IN HIS NEW BOOK AND HE SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT ROE'S LIFE AND IMPACT. >> THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME. >> WE'VE TALKED TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE TO FIND OUT THE WOMAN WHO CAME TO BE KNOWN AS ROE NEVER HAD THE ABORTION SHE THOUGHT. SHE IN FACT GAVE BIRTH THREE TIMES THAT SHE WAS IN A LONG TERM SAME SEX RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN SHE IN FACT THROUGH MOST OF HER LIFE SHE WAS ATTRACTED TO WOMEN AND THAT HER LIFE WAS TOUGH. I GUESS NOT THE WAY I WOULD PUT IT FROM READING YOUR BOOK SHE EXPERIENCED A LOT OF PAIN AND INFLICTED A LOT OF PAIN IN HER LIFE. TELL US HOW SHE CAME TO BE JANE ROE. >> YOU'RE RIGHT, NORMA WAS A DIFFICULT PERSON. HER LIFE WAS MESSY AND FILLED WITH CONTRADICTIONS NOT EASY TO PUT HER IN ANY BOX. IN A SENSE MY 0 BIN-- SHE EM BOD -- EMBODIED ROE PERFECTLY CAME TO MAKE IT SO FRAUGHT ALSO DID THAT FOR HER PERSON LIFE, THE YOUNG YEARS PART OF A VERY SORT OF COUNTER CULTURAL COMMUNITY AND THAT WAS A DIFFICULT THING TO DO. SHE WAS FOR A TIME ALSO HAVING A VERY DIFFICULT LIFE SELLING DRUGS AND SHE WAS A PROSTITUTE AND SHE WAS RAISED IN A RELIGIOUS HOME A JEHOVAH WITNESS AND TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION HOW SHE BECOMES JANE ROE. SHE'S GIVEN UP AND RELIQUISHED TWO CHILDREN TO ADOPTION AND SUFFERED FOR DOING SO. IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR HER TO DO THAT EMOTIONALLY AND PREGNANT FOR THE THIRD TIME IN 1969 AND DOESN'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN HOWEVER, ABORTION IS ILLEGAL IN TEXAS. SHE CAN'T AFFORD TO FLY TO WHERE IT'S LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA OR MEXICO AND DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. SHE GOES TO AN ADOPTION ATTORNEY AND HE SAYS YOU KNOW WHAT, I HAPPEN TO KNOW A WOMAN I GREW UP WITH. WE WENT TO A BAPTIST CHURCH TOGETHER IN TEXAS. HER NAME IS LINDA COFFEE. I KNOW SHE'S TRYING TO FIGHT THE ABORTION LOSS IN TEXAS. I CAN CONNECT YOU WITH HER. THAT'S HOW NORMA GETS TO KNOW THEM AND BECOME JANE ROE. >> ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT YOU GOT THE DISTINCTIVE IMPRESSION THAT A LOT OF THE LEADERS OF THE MOVEMENT WHO WERE CLOSEST TO HER KIND OF LOOKED DOWN ON HER. >> HER OWN LAWYERS, SARAH IN PARTICULAR REALLY MARGINALIZED NORMA, DID NOT WANT TO GIVE HER A SEAT AT THE TABLE. I CAN TELL YOU SHE DOESN'T EVEN TELL HER THAT SHE HERSELF HAD AN ABORTION SARAH AND SHE WAS WORKING AT THAT TIME FOR AN ABORTION IN AUSTIN AND SHE COULD HAVE AN ABORTION AT THE END OF THE SECOND TRIMESTER AND IT WAS A FLIGHT FOR AMERICAN AIRLINES TO HELP BRING WOMEN UP TO THE 20th WEEK OF PREGNANCY TO HAVE AN ABORTION. THEY COULD HAVE POINTED THIS OUT TO NORMA AND DID NOT. BECAUSE SHE WAS MORE VALUABLE TO THEM AS A PLAINTIFF, THEY NEEDED A PLAINTIFF AND EVEN AFTER NORMA SEES HER PLAINTIFFSHIP THROUGH AND RELINK WISHES HER CHILD FOR ADOPTION, SHE DIDN'T WANT TO FIGHT FOR A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE BUT SHE WANTED A SIMPLE ABORTION. EVEN AFTER THE CASE IS BEHIND HER AND YEARS GO BY AND SHE THEN WANTS A SEAT AT THE TABLE IN THE MID TO MID 1980s SHE REAPPROACHES THE LEADERS AFTER ALL OF THAT THEY DON'T WANT HER THERE. SHE DOESN'T SPEAK ABOUT ABORTION IN THE TERMS THAT ARE COMFORTABLE TO THEM AND IT'S A VERY DEPRESSING THING. WHAT ENDS UP HAPPENING IS THE LEADERS OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT WANTED TO HOLD HER AS CHOSE AS THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT PUSHED HER AWAY SO SHE'S VERY VULNERABLE TO BEING ONE OVER AND I'LL MENTION THE OTHER PLAINTIFF OF THE CASE THAT WAS THE CASE TO ROE ALSO IS SORT OF VULNERABLE IN THE VERY SAME WAY WAS KNOCKING AT THE SEAT OF THE TABLE AND BOTH OF THEM END UP BECOMING PRO-LIFE ADVOCATES. >> IT BEEN REPORTED SUBSEQUENTLY THAT THIS ISN'T TO DIMINISH THE VIEWS ON THIS OR ANYTHING ABOUT HOW SHE FELT BUT IT HAS BEEN REPORTED SUBSEQUENTLY THAT MEMBERS OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT PAID HER IN PART FOR HER ADVOCACY, IS THAT TRUE? SO THERE WAS A DOCUMENTARY FILM, "AKA JANE ROE." NORMA KNEW SWITCHING TO THE OTHER SIDE SHE WOULD BE NOW PAID TO GIVE SPEECHES TO THE HALF OF THE COUNTRY THAT SHE HAD PREVIOUSLY ALIENATED AS SHE HAD CHOSEN TO GIVE SPEECHES. SHE WAS NOT PAID A CENT TO CONVERT. YOU USED SIN -- SINCERITY. SHE WAS PAID TO GET BY. SHE WOULD SORT OF SAY WHATEVER SHE WANTED TO HOWEVER SHE DID ACTUALLY HAVE AN OPINION ON ROE AND ABORTION AND I KNOW THAT SHE WAS SINCERE BECAUSE SHE SAID IT SEVERAL TIMES TO VERY DIFFERENT AUDIENCES AND THE FIRST INTERVIEW SHE EVER GAVE DAYS AFTER ROE V. WADE SHE BELIEVED IN ILLEGAL RIGHT TO ABORTION THROUGH THE FIRST TTRIMESTER. SHE SAID THAT ON "NIGHTLINE." THE DAY AFTER HER CONVERSION, WHICH INFURIATED HER FRIENDS AND SAID IT TO ME AT THE END OF HER LIFE FROM THE HOSPITAL. THIS IS ACTUALLY WHAT SHE DID BELIEVE. >> THERE IS A CENTER OF GRAVITY AROUND ABORTION RIGHTS IN AMERICA AND THAT SEEMS TO FOCUS ON, YOU KNOW, FIRST TRIMESTER, CERTAINLY RAPE, INCEST AND LIFE OF THE MOTHER BUT A NUMBER OF STATES DON'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THOSE EXCEPTIONS. ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE FROM YOUR BOOK IS THOSE EXTREMISTS VIEWS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PART OF THE MOVEMENT BUT WEREN'T POLICY IN THE UNITED STATES. >> YEAH, IN FACT, THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST, THE LARGEST BODY OF EVANGELICALS WERE PRO-CHOICE UNTIL 1980. TO STEP BACK, YES, NORMA UNBELIEVABLY REPRESENTED THAT MIDDLE GROUND. WHAT IS AMAZING AT THE PEOPLE AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE VARIOUS MOVEMENTS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT ABORTION WAS COMPLICATED. JEFFERSON A REMARKABLE PERSON, ONE OF THE CENTRAL CHARACTERS IN MY BOOK, THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO VISIT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL. WHEN SHE BECOMES HEAD OF THE NATURAL RIGHT TO LIFE SHE'S SAYING IN 1978 SHE FEELS THERE NEEDS TO BE A TOTAL BAN ON ABORTION NO EXCEPTIONS. WELL, JUST THREE OF HER FOLLOW 50 PLUS BOARD MEMBERS AGREE WITH HER. SO OVER AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, WE SEE IT WAS NUANCE AND WHAT HAPPENS, WELL, IT BECOMES A POLITICIZED ISSUE IN THE MID 1970s. THE NATIONAL RIGHT TO LIFE COMMITTEE IN 1976 CHALLENGES PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES TO TAKE AN ABORTION. THE IDEA YOU WOULD INTRODUCE AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION SAYING A FETUS IS A PERSON AND LITTLE BY LITTLE THAT STARTS THE GAINING OF CURRENCY. THE GOP AND DEMOCRATS INTRODUCE POSITIONS ON ABORTION INTO THE PLATFORMS IN 1976 AND BY THE TIME REGAN IS ELECTED IN 1980, ONE YEAR AFTER THE MAJORITY BRINGS IT TO POWER WHERE EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS BONDED TOGETHER ON THIS ISSUE WE'RE OFF AND RUNNING BY THE LATE 1980s, YOU CAN'T NO LONGER BE AN ELECTED REPUBLICAN OFFICIAL IN PRO-CHOICE AND AN ELECTED PRO-CHOICE. THEY FLIPPED. GEORGE BUSH, RONALD REAGAN FLIP AND HERE WE ARE TODAY? >> THIS SEEMS TO HAVE AN ENDURING QUALITY THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO COME TO ANY SORT OF POLITICAL COMPROMISE AND WHY IS THIS ISSUE ENDURED AS A WEDGE ISSUE? >> IT GOES BACK TO THE SAME I WAS SPEAKING BEFORE, SEX AND RELIGION. IT'S A PURE FOUNDATION OF OUR COUNTRY AND BOTH SIDES CYNICALLY MANIPULATED AND PEOPLE FELL AND GO BACK TO HISTORY. SO BLACK AND WHITE ON THIS, EVEN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNTIL JUST ABOUT A CENTURY AGO RECOGNIZED A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ABORTIONS PRE AND POST. THEY'RE VERY UNIQUE ABOUT ABORTION ITSELF. IT INVOLVES NOT ONLY SEX AND RELIGION AND LIFE AND DEATH AND GENDER AND AUTONOMY AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT THINGS AND YOU HAVE VERY CYNICAL I THINK POLITICIANS WHO REALLY PRAYED ON FOLKS FOR THEIR OWN POLL LIT KI8 -- POLITICAL BENEFIT. IT WAS SAID IN THE MID-90s, WE NEED TO TAKE ABORTION OUT OF POLITICS BUT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE AT THAT POINT. NOW WE SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING. ROE GALVANIZED THE PRO-LIFE AND DOBBS IS GALVANIZING PROPERTY CHOICE AND LEADING UP TO THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS THERE ARE MANY POLITICIANS NOW ON THE REPUBLICAN SITE SOFTENING THEIR STANCE SAYING I NEED TO GET ELECTED AND I NEED TO NOT SAY THAT I'M NOW 100% PRO-LIFE BUT MAYBE I RECOGNIZE INCEPTIONS AND SEEING THERE IS A DIVIDE IN THE COMMUNITY. YOU HAVE ABSOLUTEST AND THE PRO-LIFE IS NIMBLE. INITIALLY POST ROE THEY SAY OKAY AND THREW THEIR WEIGHT BEHIND A HUMAN LIFE AMENDMENT AND WHEN THAT FELL OUT OF FAVOR WITH THEIR LEADING POLITICIANS INCLUDING REGAN BY THE WAY WHO SHIFTED AND SAYS THE WAY WE CAN ATTACK IS IMPORTANT THEN THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY SAYS WE'LL GO FOR IT ALL AND LITTLE BY LITTLE BY LITTLE AND HAVE GREAT SUCCESSES OVER THE YEARS. THE AMENDMENT, WEBSTER AND GONZALEZ AND SB 8 IN TEXAS LITTLE BY LITTLE BY LITTLE CHIPPING AWAY AND NOW HERE WE ARE, WE'LL HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS. THERE IS A MAJOR DIVIDE BETWEEN THESE TWO FACTIONS AND THE PRO-LIFE COMMUNITY. >> AS WE'RE SPEAKING NOW, LINDSEY GRAHAM IS NIMBLE AROUND THIS. INITIALLY HE SAID THAT THE SUPREME COURT, THAT THIS STATE SHOULD DECIDE THIS AND HE LITERALLY WITHIN A MATTER OF WEEKS INTRODUCED A NATIONWIDE PROPOSAL THAT WOULD TOLERATE ABORTION UP TO 15 WEEKS AND THEN WOULD OFFER EXCEPTIONS FOR RAPE, INCEST AND LIFE OF THE MOTHER. HE SEEMED TO INTRODUCE IT AS A SAFE HARBOR FOR REPUBLICANS BUT OTHERS ARE FURIOUS ABOUT THIS SO PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP ARE FURIOUS. HOW DOES THIS FIT INTO THE POLITICS AROUND ROE AND HISTORY OF THE POLITICS AROUND ROE? >> IT'S VERY EASY TO BE LIKE 100% OPPOSED TO SOMETHING WHEN IT'S JUST SORT OF HYPE THREATEN TICK AND THEORY. YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE, GIRLS AND WOMEN THAT WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT AND THESE PEOPLE ARE VOTERS. JUST TO STEP BACK, ONE OF THE AMAZING THINGS ABOUT WRITING ABOUT NORMA FOR ME WAS THAT YOU HAVE A WOMAN THAT SUFFERS, IT'S HER CHILDREN WHO SUFFER AND YOU SEE THE CHILDREN BORN AND SEE IN VERY REAL HUMAN TERMS WHAT HAPPENS AND THAT'S WHAT THESE POLITICIANS ARE FACING. SO OKAY YOU'RE SEEING A FASCINATING THING IN OKLAHOMA, LINDSEY GRAHAM'S STATE THEY HAD A MAJOR SORT OF DIVIDE AMONGST THE PRO-LIFE ELECTED OFFICIALS AND THEY DID NOT PASS LEGISLATION TO MAKE ABORTION A COMPLETE BAN. THEY ENDED UP AT SIX WEEKS. THE LEGISLATORS GOT NERVOUS BUT YOU'RE SEEING IN INDIANA THEY DID JUST PASS A TOTAL BAN FROM CONCEPTION. YES, FEW EXCEPTIONS BUT STILL, A COMPLETE BAN. YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO START SEEING MORE AND MORE STORIES ABOUT WOMEN AND GIRLS THAT SUFFER AS A RESULT OF THIS AND THAT IS WHAT LINDSEY GRAHAM IS TRYING TO GUARD AGAINST. YOU MENTIONED SAFE HARBOR. WILL IT OFFER POLITICAL SAFE HARBOR? I DON'T KNOW. WE'LL KNOW A LOT MORE AFTER THE MIDTERMS. >> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, YOU MENTIONED NORMA HAD A DIFFICULT LIFE. HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE END OF HER LIFE. IT DIDN'T END IN A WAY THAT I THINK PEOPLE WOULD WANT. SEEMED LIKE THE SADNESS OF HER LIFE SEEMED TO CONTINUE UNTIL THE VERY END. >> YEAH, I WAS ACTUALLY WITH HER WITH HER WHEN SHE PASSED AWAY WITH HER ELDEST DAUGHTER AND FAMILY. NORMA WAS OF GREAT USE TO MEMBERS ON THE PRO-CHOICE SIDE WHEN THEY NEEDED A PLAINTIFF, THEY WERE DESPERATE TO FIND A PLAINTIFF AND SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE THEY COULD FIND ALSO SEEING THAT STANDING SHE WAS OF GREAT USE AND ON THE OTHER SIDE SHE'S OF GREAT USE. HERE HE IS TELLING THE FABULOUS STORIES ABOUT WHAT THESE CRAZY CONDITIONS IN ABORTION AND WHERE SHE WORKED AND OVERCOME BY GRIEF ET CETERA. VERY LITTLE WAS TRUE. SHE HELPED BOTH SIDES ENORMOUSLY BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY TO USE HER WORDS SHE FELT LIKE AN ORPHAN BETRAYED BY BOTH SIDES. IT UNBELIEVABLE. ONCE I USED HER BODY AND USED HER SPIRIT AND THEN WHEN THEY DIDN'T NEED HER ANYMORE, THEY LET HER GO SO IT'S VERY SIDE AND NORMA IS LAMENTING THIS. SHE COUNT BE WHO SHE WANTED TO BE. SHE WANTED TO BE PRO-CHOICE UP TO A MINUTE AND SHE WANTED TO BE GAY. I JUST WANT TO SAY THE MOST PROFOUND THING FOR ME ABOUT NORMA WHEN I THINK ABOUT HER LIFE NOW IS THAT HER LIFE REALLY IS A TESTAMENT TO HOW IMPORTANT CLASS IS WHEN IT COMES TO ABORTION. NORMA'S OWN LAWYER HAD MONEY TO GET AN ABORTION. NORMA DIDN'T HAVE MONEY TO GET AN ABORTION. WHEN SHE WAS PREGNANT THAT THIRD TIME, SHE FOUND AN ABORTION PROVIDER, AN ILLEGAL PROVIDER BUT SAFE PROVIDER IN TEXAS BUT THAT MAN COST $500. SHE DIDN'T HAVE THAT MONEY. AND SO SHE WASN'T ABLE TO GET AN ABORTION AND THAT'S A KEY THING. HALF OF THE WOMEN THAT GET ABORTIONS LIVE BELOW THE POVERTY LEVEL AND THAT SAYS ABORTION IS MORE READILY AVAILABLE, WOMEN HAVE BETTER HEALTH BUT HIGHER EARNINGS BUT PROFESSIONAL PROSPECTS, ET CETERA AND WHERE THEY DON'T, THEY DON'T. WELL NORMA DIDN'T AND YOU SEE THE PROFOUND EFFECTS OF CLASS OF HER LIFE AND I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT CONTINUE AS WE NOW MOVE AHEAD INTO THIS POST ROE WORLD THAT BASICALLY, WE'RE A MORE DIVIDED COUNTRY THAN EVER. I STEP ON THIS SIDE OF THE STATE LINE I CAN HAVE AN ABORTION AND ALL THAT COMES ALONG WITH THAT. I STEP ON THIS SIDE OF THE STATE LINE I CAN'T AND THAT'S THE TROGTY. >> THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.