Amanpour and Company

>>> NOW, WHEN IT COMES TO RACISM, OF COURSE, MOST DECENT WHITE PEOPLE HAVE THE SAME VISCERAL REACTION, I'M NOT A RACIST. BUT OUR NEXT GUEST, ROBIN D'ANGELO, SADLY ANNOUNCES THAT'S NOT TRUE. IN HER BOOK "WHITE FRAGILITY," ANGELA DIGS INTO BIASES WHEN IT COMES TO RACE. NOW "WHITE FRAGILITY" IS BACK ON TOP OF THE BEST SELLER'S LIST AS PEOPLE SEEK TO EDUCATE THEMSELVES. WE'RE AIRING A DISCUSSION BETWEEN D'ANGELO. >> SO THE SUBTITLE IS WHY IT'S SO HARD FOR PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT RACISM. WHY WHITE FRAGILITY AND HOW DO WE RECOGNIZE IT? >> THE WHITE FRAGILITY IS HOW LITTLE IT TAKES TO SET US OFF. JUST THE MENTION OF IT WILL SET OFF THE DEFENSIVENESS. INDIVIDUALISM IS A REALLY PRECIOUS IDEALOGY FOR WHITE PEOPLE, AND WE DO NOT LIKE TO BE GENERALIZED ABOUT. MY RESPONSE TO THAT IS, I'M A SOCIOLOGIST. SOCIAL LIFE IS DESCRIBABLE IN PATTERNED WAYS. YES, I'M AN INDIVIDUAL. I'M ALSO A MEMBER OF A SOCIAL GROUP. I HAVE TO BE WILLING TO GRAPPLE WITH THE COLLECTIVE MESSAGES WE'RE ALL RECEIVING BECAUSE WE LIVE IN A SHARED CULTURE. >> SO LET'S BACK UP A SECOND AND TALK ABOUT HOW YOU GOT INTERESTED IN THIS WORK AND IN THIS SUBJECT. I KNOW YOU'RE AN ACADEMIC, I KNOW YOU'RE A LECTURER, AND ALSO YOU'VE DONE ANTI-RACIST TRAINING -- USED TO BE CALLED DIVERSITY TRAINING. MAYBE IT ISN'T CALLED THAT ANYMORE. >> YES. I THINK I THOUGHT OF MYSELF AS SOMEONE WHO CAME FROM PRACTICE TO THEORY RATHER THAN THEORY TO PRACTICE. I APPLIED FOR A JOB IN THE EARLY '90s FOR A DIVERSITY TRAINER. THAT'S WHAT WE CALLED IT AT THE TIME. I THOUGHT, OF COURSE, I'M QUALIFIED TO GO INTO PUBLIC AND LEAD A DISCUSSION ON RACE. I'M A VEGETARIAN, HOW COULD I BE RACIST? I HAD THAT REALLY CLASSIC, LIBERAL, OPEN-MINDED KIND OF IDEA ABOUT WHAT IT MEANT TO BE RACIST, AND I SAW MYSELF, OF COURSE, AS OUTSIDE OF THAT AND FELT QUALIFIED. AND I GOT THE JOB. AND I WAS IN FOR THE MOST PROFOUND LEARNING OF MY LIFE. IT WAS A PARALLEL PROCESS, SO TWO KEY PIECES WHERE, ONE, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE I WAS WORKING SIDE BY SIDE WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO WERE CHALLENGING THE WAY I SAW THE WORLD. PART OF BEING WHITE WAS I COULD GET THAT FAR IN LIFE. I WAS A PARENT AT THAT POINT. I WAS IN MY 30s AND NEVER HAD I HAD MY RACIAL WORLD VIEW CHALLENGED, ONE. TWO, DEFINITELY NOT BY A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE OF COLOR AND NOT IN ANY KIND OF SUSTAINED WAY. IT WORKED LIKE A MIRROR. I WAS LIKE A FISH BEING TAKEN OUT OF WATER. I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TELL YOU I HAD A RACIAL WORLD VIEW, BECAUSE AS A WHITE PERSON, I WAS RAISED TO SEE MYSELF AS JUST HUMAN. NOW, YOU'RE A PARTICULAR KIND OF HUMAN. I'M JUST HUMAN. AND IF WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT RACE, I EXPECT WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT YOUR RACE, NOT MY RACE. SO MOST WHITE PEOPLE HAVE A VERY UN-RACE-LIKE IDENTITY. THAT WAS THE FIRST THING. THE SECOND THING WAS GOING INTO THE WORKPLACE, OVERLY WHITE EMPLOYEES WHO WERE MANDATED TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS AND THE HOSTILITY WAS OFF THE CHARTS. >> YOU TELL SOME VERY INTERESTING STORIES IN THIS BOOK. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU TALK ABOUT LEADING A SEMINAR WHERE 38 OUT OF THE 40 PEOPLE IN THE ROOM WERE WHITE, AND THEN ONE OF THE PARTICIPANTS LITERALLY POUNDS THE TABLE, YELLING THAT WHITE PEOPLE CAN'T GET A JOB. AND EVERYBODY WHO HAD A JOB THERE WAS WHITE. >> IT'S A KIND OF DELUSION. I THINK SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID THAT WHEN YOU'RE USED TO 100%, 98 FEELS OPPRESSIVE, RIGHT? AS A WHITE PERSON, I WAS JUST RAISED TO EXPECT THE WORLD TO BE MINE IN ABSOLUTELY ANY FIELD. I SEE MYSELF REPRESENTED. I SEE MYSELF REPRESENTED IN ALL MY TEACHERS AND MY CURRICULUM AND MY HEROES AND HEROINES. SO EVEN THE SUGGESTION WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'RE BEING FAIR AND INCLUDING OTHER PEOPLE SEEMS TO SET THE WHITE COLLECTIVE OFF. >> TELL ME SOME OF THE THINGS YOU SAW IN THESE WORKSHOPS THAT LED YOU TO THIS THEORY. >> IT'S A LOT LIKE WATER DRIPPING ON A ROCK, RIGHT? I DIDN'T GET IT THE FIRST, SECOND, THIRD. BUT IT'S SO CONSISTENT AND SO PATTERNED THAT IT'S LIKE A SCRIPT. AFTER A WHILE YOU CAN JUST STAND THERE AND SAY, I CAN PREDICT WHAT THIS WHITE PERSON IS GOING TO SAY RIGHT NOW. AND SURE ENOUGH, THEY SAY IT. I WAS TAUGHT TO TREAT EVERYONE THE SAME. I HAVE PEOPLE COLOR IN MY FAMILY. I MARCHED IN THE '60s, I TAUGHT IN A DIVERSE SCHOOL. THE EVIDENCE THAT WHITE PEOPLE GIVE FOR THEIR LACK OF RACISM IS VERY REVEALING TO WHAT WE THINK RACISM IS. AND EVERYTHING I DO IS TO TRY TO GET US OFF THE SURFACE, WHICH IS ALL THESE NARRATIVES AND GET UNDER THERE TO THE UNDERLYING FRAMEWORK. BECAUSE DESPITE ALL THOSE NARRATIVES, I WAS TAUGHT TO TREAT EVERYONE THE SAME. I DON'T SEE COLOR, OUR OUTCOME HAVE NOT IMPROVED. THEY'RE INCREASING, NOT DECREASING. AND WE'RE NOT POST-RACIAL. WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE? THE QUESTION THAT DRIVES MY WORK IS HOW DO WE PULL THIS OFF? HOW DO WE INSIST THAT OUR RACE HAS NO MEANING IN A SOCIETY THAT IS DEEPLY SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL BY RACE? HOW DO WE SIT, THOSE OF US WHO ARE WHITE, IN SUCH EXPLICIT SEGREGATION AND CLAIM THERE IS NOTHING HAPPENING HERE? >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK SOME PEOPLE MIGHT EXPERIENCE AS DEEPLY PROVOCATIVE IS WHEN YOU SAY THAT WHITE PROGRESSIVES CAUSE THE MOST DAILY DAMAGE TO PEOPLE OF COLOR. HOW SO? >> WELL, WHITE PROGRESSIVES ARE MY SPECIALTY BECAUSE I AM A HUGE WHITE PROGRESSIVE. WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY DEMOCRAT/REPUBLICAN. ANY WHITE PERSON WHO SEES THEMSELVES AS NOT RACIST, LESS RACIST, WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT ALL THE WHITE PEOPLE THEY WISH WERE WATCHING THIS PROGRAM BECAUSE THEY REALLY NEED IT, THAT IS A WHITE PROGRESSIVE. I THINK WE DO MORE DAILY HARM BECAUSE WE'RE MORE LIKELY TO BE IN THE LIVES OF PEOPLE OF COLOR, AND OUR IDENTITIES ARE ROOTED IN THIS IDEA OF BEING FREE OF RACISM. SO IF RACISM COMES UP, WE'RE GOING TO PUT ALL OF OUR ENERGY INTO MAKING SURE YOU SEE THE RACISM NOT IN US AND RARELY, RARELY ANY OF OUR ENERGY INTO WHAT WE NEED TO BE DOING THE REST OF OUR LIVES. IT CERTAINLY INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO HAVE CONSCIOUS INTENT OF HARM, BUT MOST BIAS IS ACTUALLY NOT CONSCIOUS. SO WE HAVE TO CHANGE OUR UNDERSTANDING OF RACISM FROM AN INDIVIDUAL MOMENT THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE OCCURRED TO THIS SYSTEM WE'RE IN AND THAT IS CIRCULATING 24/7, 365. AND THAT CHANGES THE QUESTION FROM IS OR ISN'T HE OR SHE RACIST TO HOW IS RACISM MANIFESTING IN THIS CONTEXT? >> YOU SPEAK VERY FRANKLY IN THE BOOK ABOUT HOW YOU STEPPED IN IT YOURSELF, IF I CAN USE THAT PHRASE. YOU HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF WHERE YOU EXPERIENCED YOUR OWN WHITE FRAGILITY. >> I USED TO BE THE CO-DIRECTOR FOR A LARGE NONPROFIT, AND MY OTHER DIRECTOR WAS A BLACK WOMAN, SO WE WERE AN INTERRACIAL TEAM. AND OUR EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT WAS ALSO A BLACK WOMAN. ONE DAY THE COMPANY HIRED A WEB DEVELOPER TO COME IN AND DESIGN THE COMPANY'S WEB PAGE. SHE SET MEETINGS UP WITH EVERY TEAM TO INTERVIEW US ABOUT WHAT WE DID SO SHE COULD DESIGN OUR PAGE. SO SHE CALLS THE THREE OF US INTO HER OFFICE AND SHE A BLACK WOMAN. SO I'M IN A ROOM WITH ONE BLACK WOMAN WHO I'M CLOSE TO AND THE OTHER ONE I DON'T KNOW AT ALL. SHE HANDS ME AN APPLICATION AND IT DOESN'T TOUCH THE NUANCES OF WHAT WE DO. I PUSHED IT ASIDE AND I SAID, LET ME EXPLAIN. WE GO INTO THESE OFFICES AND DEES ANTI-RACIAL TRAINING. DEBRA WAS TOLD NOT TO COME BACK, SO I GUESS HER HAIR SCARES PEOPLE. SHE HAS LONG BLACK BRAIDS. SO WHAT I'M DOING IS NOT ONLY AM I MAKING FUN OF A BLACK PERSON'S HAIR, WHICH IS SENSITIVE ISSUE AND I KNOW BETTER, AND I'M SITTING IN THE GROUP. THE INTERVIEW WAS OVER, AND A FEW DAYS LATER, THEY CAME BACK AND SAID, ANGELA WAS REALLY INSULTED BY WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT HER HAIR. SO I CALLED ANGELA AND SAID, WOULD YOU GRANT ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO REPAIR THE RACISM THAT I PERPETRATED TOWARD YOU IN THE MEETING LAST WEEK? SHE SAID YES. WE SAT DOWN AND TALKED ABOUT IT, AND SHE SAID, I DON'T KNOW YOU, I HAVE NO RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU, I HAVE NO TRUST WITH YOU, AND I DO NOT WANT TO BE JOKING ABOUT BLACK WOMEN'S HAIR IN A PROFESSIONAL WORK MEETING, BUT THE WHITE WOMAN I DON'T KNOW. I HEAR YOU, I APOLOGIZE. THEN I ASKED, IS THERE ANYTHING I MISSED? AND SHE SAID, YES. THAT SURVEY YOU SO GLIBLY SHOVED ASIDE, I WROTE THAT SURVEY, AND I HAVE SPENT MY LIFE JUSTIFYING MY INTELLIGENCE TO WHITE PEOPLE. ON THAT, I APOLOGIZED, ASKED, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID AND HEARD THAT WE MIGHT MOVE FORWARD? SHE SAID, YEAH, IF WE'RE GOING TO WORK TOGETHER, I'M SURE YOU'LL RUN YOUR RACISM BY ME AGAIN, AND WHEN YOU DO, DO YOU WANT YOUR FEEDBACK PUBLICLY OR PRIVATELY? I SAID PUBLICLY. IN MY CASE, PLEASE, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO SEE THAT I'M NOT FREE OF THIS, BUT IT GIVES ME AN OPPORTUNITY TO MODEL NON-DEFENSIVENESS. ARE WE GOOD? WE'RE GOOD. AND WE MOVED ON. SHE TOLD ME THIS KIND OF STUFF HAPPENS TO ME ALL THE TIME. WHAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING, THIS REPAIR, AND I APPRECIATE IT. I CONSIDER WHITE FUNCTIONING AS EVERYDAY WHITE BULLYING. WE WHITE PEOPLE MAKE IT SO MISERABLE FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR TO TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCING FROM US, TO TALK ABOUT WHAT RACIAL PATTERNS WE'RE MANIFESTING THAT MOST OF THE TIME THEY DON'T. >> YOU SAID YOU DON'T WANT WHITE PEOPLE TO FEEL GUILTY, WHICH EXACTLY IS WHAT I THINK SOME PEOPLE LISTENING TO OUR CONVERSATION WILL FEEL. WHY DO YOU SAY YOU DON'T WANT WHITE PEOPLE TO FEEL GUILTY? >> BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE YOUR SOCIALIZATION. YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE YOUR CONDITIONING. YOU WERE BORN INTO A SOCIETY THAT SET YOU UP IN THESE WAYS. YOU DON'T NEED TO FEEL GUILTY UNLESS YOU KNOW THAT AND YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT. RIGHT? SO I THINK -- GUILT IS A NATURAL PART OF THE PROCESS, BUT IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH THE GUILT. IF IT BECOMES YOUR EXCUSE FOR NOT ENGAGING ANY FURTHER, THEN IT'S JUST INDULGENT AND YOU'RE JUST USING IT TO PROTECT YOUR POSITION. IF IT MOTIVATES YOU TO KEEP GOING, THEN IT'S USEFUL. >> YOU HAVE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE RESURGENT AT THE MOMENT, AND WE CERTAINLY SEE THEM OPENLY DISCUSSING THEIR VIEW THAT THEY DON'T WANT A MERITOCRACY, THEY WANT A HIERARCHY WITH WHITE PEOPLE ON TOP, PARTICULARLY WHITE MALES. HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? >> THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE THREAD, THERE ARE MANY THREADS, AND IT'S ALSO WHAT MAKES US SO OFTEN IRRATIONAL ON THIS TOPIC BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON. POLITICIANS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO MANIPULATE THE WHITE COLLECTIVE THROUGH RACIAL ANIMUS. MAYBE YOUR LISTENERS ARE FAMILIAR WITH THOSE KINDS OF CODED TERMS, DOG WHISTLE. WE'RE BEYOND DOG WHISTLE. AND NOW YOU CAN JUST COME OUT, AND AT THE TOP OF THE HIERARCHY, IN THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE NATION IS PRETTY EXPLICIT RACISM. >> WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR OBAMA AND THEN VOTED FOR TRUMP? >> I THINK THAT OBAMA WAS SYMBOLIC. I THINK WHAT OBAMA DID WAS ALLOW US TO FEEL REALLY GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES UNDER VERY NARROW TERMS, RIGHT? IF THE WORD "RACISM" EVER CAME OUT OF HIS MOUTH, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, RIGHT? HE HAD TO BE THE PERFECT BLACK MAN, RIGHT? THE SAFE BLACK MAN. HE'S ALSO BRILLIANT AND CLEAR AND EDUCATED, AND SO ALSO AT THE SAME TIME THAT ALLOWS ME TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT MYSELF, THERE IS ALSO A LITTLE BIT OF CHALLENGE THERE IN HOW POWERFUL A BLACK MAN HE IS, RIGHT? AND I WOULD ASK ANY WHITE PERSON WHO VOTED FOR OBAMA AND SEES THAT AS KIND OF THEIR EVIDENCE THAT THEY'RE FREE OF RACISM TO ASK THEMSELVES, HOW DID IT CHANGE YOUR LIFE ON THE GROUND? HOW DID OBAMA'S PRESIDENCY CHANGE THE LIVE EXPERIENCE FOR BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DAY IN AND DAY OUT? I DON'T THINK THAT IT DID. IT WAS IMPORTANT SYMBOLICALLY, BUT MASS INCARCERATIONS, SCHOOL TO PRISON PIPELINE, THESE THINGS HAVE NOT DIMINISHED, RIGHT? IN MANY WAYS THEY'VE INCREASED. >> DO YOU SEE TRUMP AS A REACTION TO OBAMA? AND IF SO, WHY? >> I SEE TRUMP AS A REACTION TO OBAMA BECAUSE TRUMP GAVE PERMISSION TO THE RESENTMENT THAT WAS ROILING UNDER THE SURFACE. >> RESENTMENT OF WHAT? >> OF BLACK ADVANCEMENT, OF BLACK UPPITYNESS. TO USE A JIM CROW ANALOGY, YOU WILL STEP DOWN THE CURB AS I COME DOWN IT. YOU WILL NOT LOOK ME IN THE EYE. HIS RACISM IS EXPLICIT AND UNDENIABLE. THAT WASN'T A DETERRENT. I THINK WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TO LOOK REALLY HARD AT WHY WAS THAT NOT A DETERRENT TO YOU? IN FACT, I WONDER IF THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT EXCITED YOU AND ALLOWED YOU TO INDULGE IN AND NOT ADMIT IT. >> YOU'RE A SCHOLAR. WHERE IS YOUR DATA? WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THAT? >> THERE IS A KIND OF GLEE IN THE WHITE COLLECTIVE WHEN BLACK BODIES ARE PUNISHED. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE WAY FOOTBALL PLAYERS ARE TALKED ABOUT, AS IF HOW DARE THEY NOT BE GRATEFUL. WE DON'T TEND TO TALK ABOUT WHITE FOOTBALL PLAYERS IN TERMS OF, YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL FOR WHAT YOU HAVE, RIGHT? THERE IS SOMETHING REALLY DEEP GOING ON HERE, AND TONY MORRISON BEAUTIFULLY ARGUES THAT WHITE PEOPLE NEED BLACK PEOPLE. THERE IS NO WHITE WITHOUT BLACK. I CANNOT BE SUPERIOR IF YOU ARE NOT INFERIOR. SO THERE IS A KIND OF INVESTMENT IN THOSE POSITIONS. AND IT'S THE BEDROCK OF THIS COUNTRY, RIGHT? IT'S MAYBE BURIED IN A WAY THAT IT WASN'T IN THE PAST, BUT IT SURE LOOKS LIKE IT'S COMING BACK UP. >> GIVEN SOME PEOPLE WOULD HEAR OUR CONVERSATION, I WOULD SAY I WOULD LIKE TO DO BETTER, I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THIS TRAINING, WHAT SHOULD I DO? >> THE SIMPLEST THING THAT A WHITE PERSON CAN DO IS TAKE THE INITIATIVE, BREAK WITH THE APATHY AND GO LOOK IT UP. I WILL NEVER FORGET TALKING TO A MULTI-RACIAL GROUP OF PEOPLE. I ASKED, WHAT WOULD IT BE LIKE IF YOU COULD JUST GIVE WHITE PEOPLE FEEDBACK WHEN WE SHOWED OUR UNAWARE RACIST ASSUMPTIONS AND PATTERNS AND HAD US RECEIVE THAT FEEDBACK WITH GRACE, REFLECT AND SEEK TO CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR, WHAT WOULD THAT BE LIKE? I WILL NEVER FORGET THIS MAN SAYING, IT WOULD BE REVOLUTIONARY. I'M LIKE, WOW, A REVOLUTION. THAT I WOULD RECEIVE IT WITH GRACE, REFLECT AND SEEK TO CHANGE THE BEHAVIOR. THAT'S HOW DIFFICULT WE ARE. YET, IT'S HOW EASY IT IS. WE JUST CAN'T GET THERE FROM THIS PARADIGM THAT SAYS, ONLY BAD INTENTIONAL MEAN PEOPLE COULD EVER PERPETRATE RACISM.