Amanpour and Company

>>> WE TURN NOW TO A LOOK AT HOW WOMEN HAVE TURNED THE TIDE IN U.S. POLITICS. AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST, "WASHINGTON POST" COLUMNIST JENNIFER RUBIN SAYS. HER NEW BOOK EXPLAINS HOW FEMALE VOTERS, ACTIVISTS AND POLITICIANS FOUGHT FOR DEMOCRACY. HERE SHE IS SPEAKING TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT HER OWN POLITICAL RECKONING. >> THANKS. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. >> MY PLEASURE. >> BEFORE WE GET INTO HOW WOMEN SAVED DEMOCRACY FROM DONALD TRUMP, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ONE WOMAN, YOU. I'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN EVOLUTION FROM WHERE YOU STARTED OUT POLITICALLY TO WHERE YOU ARE NOW. YOU SAID SEVERAL TIMES -- IN FACT, YOUR COLUMN WAS CALLED, THE RIGHT TURN. YOU IDENTIFIED YOURSELF AS A CONSERVATIVE, MODERATE CONSERVATIVE. TELL ME WHY. WHAT ARE SOME OF THE ORIGINS OF YOUR POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY? >> NOT TO DATE MYSELF, BUT I GUESS I CAME TO POLITICAL MATURITY WHEN THE COLD WAR WAS GOING ON. REPUBLICANS HAD A VIEW OF INTERNATIONAL LEADERSHIP IN THE BATTLE AGAINST COMMUNISM THAT I IDENTIFIED WITH. I GENERALLY FAVORED FREE MARKETS. I FAVORED FREE TRADE, ROBUST LEGAL IMMIGRATION, THE RULE OF LAW. MORE IMPORTANTLY, A CONCERN, AT LEAST AT THAT TIME, THAT GOVERNMENT SHOULD WORK WITH HUMILITY INCREMENTALLY, RESPECTING THE INSTITUTIONS OF CIVIL SOCIETY. THOSE WERE PRINCIPALS THAT I BELIEVED AND AT LEAST AT THAT TIME THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ESPOUSED. >> WHEN DID THAT CHANGE FOR YOU? WAS IT ALL BECAUSE OF DONALD TRUMP? >> WELL, CERTAINLY, THERE WERE SIGNS WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT WERE DEEPLY DISTURBING. BUT IT WAS NOT UNTIL DONALD TRUMP THAT THOSE FORCES REALLY ROSE UP AND CONSTITUTED THE MAJORITY VIEW. NOW THE EXCLUSIVE VIEW OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. I HAD ALWAYS FOUGHT BACK AGAINST ELEMENTS THAT WERE -- SEEMED TO BE INTOLERANT. AS I SAID, I IDENTIFIED WITH THE RONALD REAGAN WING OF THE PARTY THAT WAS PRO IMMIGRATION. CERTAINLY, THERE WERE IMMIGRATION RESTRICTIONISTS. WHEN TRUMP CAME ALONG AND THE PARTY FELL FOR HIM HOOK, LINE AND SINKER AND PEOPLE WHO I HAD PREVIOUSLY RESPECTED DECIDED TO TURN ON A DIME AND THROW OUT PAST CONVICTIONS, THAT WAS JUST TOO MUCH FOR ME. I MUST SAY I WENT THROUGH A PERIOD OF TIME -- I REFER TO THIS IN THE BOOK -- I FELT LIKE I WAS IN THE LAND OF THE BODY SNATCHERS. PEOPLE WHO HAD PREVIOUSLY BEEN ADVOCATING RULE OF LAW, DEMOCRACY, ALL OF THESE WONDERFUL THINGS, NOW WERE CHEERING FOR DONALD TRUMP. WHEN IT BECAME OBVIOUS THAT THE PARTY WOULD NOT REJECT HIM IN THE SPRING OF 2016, I WROTE A LETTER -- AN OPEN LETTER BREAKING UP WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND SAYING, I CAN'T BE PART OF THIS. JUST AS I SUSPECTED, THINGS WENT DOWNHILL FROM THERE. IT TURNED T EED OUT TO BE FEW I PUBLIC LIFE -- WE TRY TO MAKE A FAIR AMOUNT OF NOISE -- WHO LEFT THE PARTY OR SPOKE UP. THE VAST MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS SIMPLY WENT ALONG. THAT REALLY WAS AN EYE OPENER ON A PERSONAL LEVEL AS WELL AS A PROFESSIONAL AND POLITICAL LEVEL. >> TELL ME ABOUT THE BOOK. WHAT WAS YOUR GOAL WITH THE BOOK? >> I FELT AS I WAS WATCHING THIS THAT THERE WAS A GREAT UNTOLD STORY. ALTHOUGH PEOPLE SPOKE ABOUT THE RESISTANCE GENERICALLY, THE POPULAR MEDIA WAS NOT REALLY APPRECIATING THE TREMENDOUS ROLE THAT WOMEN, PER SE, WERE FILLING. AND PARTICULARLY, THEIR SELF ORGANIZATION. THEY KNIT TOGETHER NEW NETWORKS. ORDINARY AMERICANS WHO HAD NEVER RUN FOR OFFICE DECIDED TO, MANY OF THEM WOMEN. I REALLY THOUGHT THIS ARRAY OF WOMEN WAS QUITE REMARKABLE AND QUITE INSPIRATIONAL IN A SENSE. THAT THESE WERE PEOPLE WHO DECIDED THAT DEMOCRACY WAS NOT A SPECTATOR SPORT. THEY HAD TO UP THE GAME. THEY HAD TO GET INTO THE ARENA. THEY DID. MANY OF THE WOMEN WHO RAN FOR OFFICE AND WON IN MANY CASES WERE WOMEN WITH A NATIONAL SECURITY BACKGROUND WITH THE CIA OR THE MILITARY. THESE WOMEN HAD AN ETHIC OF PUBLIC SERVICE THAT WENT BACK DECADES. WHEN DONALD TRUMP CAME ALONG, THEY SAW THAT THEIR COUNTRY WAS THREATENED, NOT BY AN OUTSIDE ENEMY, BUT BY AN INTERNAL THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRATIC VALUES AND NORMS. SO THEY STEPPED UP. I TELL A STORY OF ABIGAIL SANDBROOKER WHO IS A CONGRESSWOMAN FROM VIRGINIA, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE. SHE WAS WENT TO A TOWN HALL RUN BY HER THEN CONGRESSMAN WHO WAS A VERY CONSERVATIVE TEA PARTIER WHO HAD DISPLACED CANTER. HE HAD BEEN THE MAJORITY LEADER. HE WAS REALLY KIND OF HOT STUFF IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. AS SHE SAT THERE LISTENING TO HIM AS HE TRIED TO DEFEND THE MUSLIM BAN AND WENT ON AND ON ABOUT A VARIETY OF ISSUES, SHE THOUGHT TO HERSELF, THIS GUY DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. I COULD DO THIS. THAT EXPERIENCE WAS REPEATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN. WHEN WOMEN GOT AN UP CLOSE LOOK AT THEIR POLITICAL REPRESENTATIVE, THEY WERE NOT VERY IMPRESSED. THEY WERE ARROGANT, IN MANY INSTANCES. THEY WERE IGNORANT IN MANY INSTANCES. THEY REALLY DISCOVERED, I'M AN EDUCATED PERSON. THEY HAD A NATIONAL SECURITY BACKGROUND. I HAVE FIGURED OUT HOW TO ORGANIZE IN BUSINESS, IN MY PRIVATE LIFE, MY PROFESSIONAL LIFE, AS A MOTHER GOING UP IN PTA MEETINGS OR COMMUNITY EVENTS. I CAN DO THIS, TOO. IT WAS SUCH A REAFFIRMATION OF I THINK WHAT THE FOUNDERS HAD IN MIND WHEN THEY WANTED CITIZENS TO PARTICIPATE IN POLITICS AND NOT HAVE A POLITICAL CLASS THAT WAS REMOTE AND UNACCOUNTABLE TO THE PEOPLE. >> YOU PROFILE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO I THINK MAY BE WELL-KNOWN IN A WASHINGTON, D.C. CONTEXT OR POLITICAL CIRCLES. THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY NATIONAL FIGURES. WHAT WERE SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WHOSE STORIES IMPRESSED YOU? >> THERE WAS ONE WOMAN WHO WAS ACTUALLY A CONSTITUENT WHO WAS CAROL TRENT. SHE DECIDED AFTER WATCHING THE ELECTION WITH GREAT DEPRESSION AND GREAT ANGST THAT SHE WOULD GET KIND OF HER NEIGHBORS TOGETHER AND SEE IF MAYBE THEY COULD DO SOMETHING. THERE WAS ANOTHER GROUP IN CHESTERVILLE COUNTY, RIGHT AROUND RICHMOND, WHO WAS ORGANIZING. THEY PUT TOGETHER REALLY WITHOUT THINKING THROUGH ALL OF THE CONSEQUENCES A GROUP CALLED THE LIBERAL WOMEN OF CHESTERVILLE COUNTY. THEY BECAME TWO OR 3,000 PEOPLE STRONG. THEY BECAME A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH. THEY WERE ABLE TO RECRUIT CANDIDATES ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE TO RUN FOR OFFICE IN WHAT WAS A RELATIVELY CONSERVATIVE DISTRICT SO THAT UP AND DOWN THE BALLOT ON STATE, LOCAL AND FEDERAL RACES, THERE WAS AT LEAST SOMEBODY RUNNING ON BOTH SIDES. THEY BECAME SORT OF A POLITICAL FORCE WHERE CANDIDATES FELT COMPELLED TO COME BY TO GET THEIR NOMINATION TO BE VETTED BY THESE WOMEN. MANY OF THEM VOLUNTEERED ON PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS OF NOT -- NOT ALL ON THE SAME ONE. THEY VOLUNTEERED. THEY RAISED MONEY. SO THEY REALLY BECAME POLITICAL ACTORS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY REALIZED THAT THERE WAS A NEED. I TELL THE STORY OF KATIE PORTER WHO WAS A LAW PROFESSOR OUT IN CALIFORNIA IN ORANGE COUNTY. SHE WAS JUST GOB SMACKED THIS HAPPENED. SHE WAS GOING TO WASHINGTON FOR A CONFERENCE ON HER LEGAL EXPERTISE MANY CONSUMER RIGHTS. BECAUSE SHE WAS A LAW STUDENT OF ELIZABETH WARREN. WOMEN NETWORKING WITH OTHER WOMEN. DECIDED TO RUN FOR OFFICE. IT WASN'T SO MUCH WHETHER THEY WERE SUCCESSFUL OR NOT. IT WAS THE IMPETUS TO ENGAGE IN POLITICS IN A WAY THEY THOUGHT THEIR COUNTRY NEEDED. THERE WAS A SIMILARITY IN THE ISSUES THEY RAN ON, WHICH WAS DEMOCRACY, WHICH WAS THE RULE OF LAW. THOSE WERE THE THINGS AS WE BEGAN THE CONVERSATION SAYING WERE THE THINGS THAT DREW ME TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. THE RULE OF LAW, EQUAL JUSTICE, A CHIEF EXECUTIVE WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE TO THE PEOPLE AND TO THE CONSTITUTION. THESE WOMEN WERE NOW CARRYING THAT TORCH. >> I WANT TO POINT OUT IN THE BOOK YOU PROFILE AND WRITE ABOUT WOMEN AND MOVEMENTS AS YOU SAID ACROSS THE COUNTRY BUT ALSO OF DIFFERENT RACES. STACEY ABRAMS, KAMALA HARRIS IS IN YOUR BOOK. I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THE FACT THAT IN 2020, FOR EXAMPLE, YES, DONALD TRUMP WAS DEFEATED. JOE BIDEN GOT THE MOST VOTES OF ANY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN HISTORY. DONALD TRUMP GOT THE SECOND MOST VOTES OF ANY CANDIDATE IN HISTORY. AND HE STILL GOT THE MAJORITY OF VOTES OF WHITE WOMEN. WHAT'S YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THAT? >> YOU KNOW, WOMEN ARE COMPLICATED PEOPLE. THERE ARE MANY OTHER CONCERNS. FOR WHITE SOUTHERN EVANGELICAL WOMEN, DONALD TRUMP WAS JUST AS MUCH A HEROIC FIGURE AS HE WAS FOR WHITE EVANGELICAL SOUTHERN MEN. THEY MARINATED IN THE SAME RIGHT WING MEDIA THAT THEIR HUSBANDS OR BROTHERS OR FATHERS DID. THAT THEY WERE CONVINCED, AS THEIR MALE COUNTERPARTS WERE, THAT CHRISTIANITY WAS UNDER ATTACK, THAT WHITES WERE UNDER ATTACK. THEY WERE NOT EXEMPT FROM THIS MOVEMENT. WE SAW CERTAIN WOMEN, YOU ARE RIGHT, MOVE OR MOVE MORE STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF THE DEMOCRATS. NOT MUCH REPORTED. BUT IF YOU BREAK DOWN THE NUMBERS, LATINO WOMEN WENT MORE HEAVILY FOR BIDEN. THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO ME, BECAUSE WE ALL HEARD THAT TRUMP MADE ALL THESE INROADS AMONG WHITE COLLEGE EDUCATED WOMEN AND LA LATINOS. THE CONCLUSION THAT I REACH IS THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO ARE POTENTIAL ALLIES. AND WOMEN AND MEN WHO WANT TO MAINTAIN THE RESISTANCE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO REACH OUT AND TO COMMUNICATE AND TO IMPRESS UPON THESE OTHER WOMEN THAT THEIR INTERESTS ARE NOT THREATENED BY JOE BIDEN AND THAT THEY HAVE A SECURITY IN A THRIVING DEMOCRACY, NOT IN THIS AUTHORITARIAN MOVEMENT. IT WILL TAKE EFFORT TO REACH OUT TO WOMEN WHO WERE NOT PERSUADED. THERE'S NO GUARANTEE OF SUCCESS. >> I'M THINKING ABOUT ALABAMA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE REPUBLICAN WOMEN CROSSED PARTY LINES TO REJECT THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE FOR SENATE BECAUSE HE HAD A VERY UNSAVORY RECORD OF CONDUCT DIRECTED AT VERY YOUNG WOMEN WAS REVEALED. IN THE VERY NEXT OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE FOR ANOTHER REPUBLICAN, THEY DID SO. EVEN THOUGH THE DEMOCRAT WHO HELD THAT SEAT FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME VOTED IN AN EXTREMELY CONSERVATIVE FASHION BY DEMOCRATIC STANDARDS. SEEMED TO BE A PERSON OF HIGH INTEGRITY. HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THE ISSUE SEEMS TO BE JUST TO BLUNT THAT WHITENESS TRUMPS EVERYTHING ELSE FOR CERTAIN PEOPLE. HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? >> IT CAN IN SOME INSTANCES. I WOULD ARGUE THAT WHEN YOU GET POLITICS OUT FROM THE PURE POLICY DISAGREEMENTS AND YOU RAISE IT TO THE LEVEL OF VALUES, OF MORAL VALUES, YOU MAKE MORE HEADWAY WITH PEOPLE WHO IDEOLOGICALLY MIGHT NOT BE ATTUNE TO YOU. I LOOK, FOR EXAMPLE, AT THE CHILD SEPARATION POLICY. THIS WAS A HUGE MOTIVATOR FOR WOMEN WHO IN VERY HIGH NUMBERS -- SOME INSTANCES 10% -- CARED ABOUT THIS ISSUE MORE THAN MEN AND WE VERY ANGRY ABOUT THIS ISSUE. THAT WAS THE TYPE OF ISSUE WHERE PEOPLE COULD SAY TO ONE ANOTHER, THIS IS NOT ABOUT A POLICY, THIS IS NOT ABOUT POLITICS. THIS IS ABOUT SOMETHING BIGGER THAN POLITICS. IT'S ABOUT A MORAL ISSUE. IT IS THOSE INSTANCES WHEN YOU CAN LIFT POLITICS PERHAPS OUT OF THE POLICY DEBATE AND APPEAL TO SOME BROADER ISSUES, SOME BROADER MORAL VALUES. BUT IT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT THAT THERE ARE A SEGMENT OF WHITE NON-COLLEGE EDUCATED EVANGELICAL WOMEN WHO REMAIN FIRMLY WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. IT'S A PROCESS. IT USED TO BE THAT WHITE COLLEGE EDUCATED WOMEN WERE A VERY STRONG PART OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. THESE WERE THE WORKER BEES OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. THEY MANNED THE WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS. THEY WERE THE VOLUNTEERS. THOSE PEOPLE HAVE REALLY SORT OF FLED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THIS ELECTION CYCLE. BUT IT HAS NOT BEEN EVERYONE. TO SOME DEGREE, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT NOT ONLY RACE, NOT ONLY GENDER, BUT RELIGION, EDUCATION LEVEL, GEOGRAPHY AND ALL OF THESE DO PLAY A ROLE. IT REMAINS A WORK IN PROGRESS. >> CONSERVATIVE MEDIA OUTLETS ARE NOT PLEASED WITH YOU. SOME OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT PLEASED WITH YOU ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE DEMOCRATS, PROGRESSIVES, WHO HAVE WONDERED, WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE THE RACISM, WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE THE XENOPHOBIA, WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE THE NOTHINGNESS? I'M THINKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S RECORD IN NEW YORK FOR YEARS AND SAW HIS STOKING OF RACIAL A ANIMUS. WHY DO YOU THINK WE DIDN'T SEE THOSE THINGS UNTIL IT WAS RIGHT IN YOUR FACE? >> I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE PRIMARILY LOST WITHIN THE PARTY. THEY NOMINATED PEOPLE FOR PRESIDENT LIKE MITT ROMNEY AND JOHN McCAIN WHO WERE PATRIOTS, DECENT PEOPLE. I DIDN'T AGREE WITH THEM ON ALL THEIR POLICY ISSUES. BUT THEY WERE RESPECTABLE SMALL D DEMOCRATS WHO I THINK HAD THE COUNTRY'S BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. I THINK WITHIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THERE WERE ALWAYS FACTIONS AND THERE WERE MANY OF US WHO -- THERE WERE ALL SORTS OF FRACTIONS IN WHICH WE WERE QUITE OPENLY IN DISAGREEMENT. AT LEAST UNTIL DONALD TRUMP, I FELT THEY WERE A MINORITY STRAIN WITHIN THE PARTY AND THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE -- THEY DIDN'T WIN THE PRESIDENCY, THEY DIDN'T SET PO POLICY. GEORGE W. BUSH HAD A VERY IMMIGRATION REFORM POLICY THAT EVENTUALLY FALTERED BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE PARTY WHO WERE ANTI-IMMIGRATION. THERE WAS ENOUGH OF AN EFFORT TO TRY TO MINIMIZE OR TRY TO SORT OF QUARANTINE THESE PEOPLE SO THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE A DRIVING FORCE WITHIN THE PARTY. WHEN THAT WAS NO LONGER THE CASE AND THEY LET THESE PEOPLE WASH OVER THEM AND THEY KIND OF SAID, ALL RIGHT, THE INMATES NOW REALLY ARE IN CHARGE OF THE ASYLUM, THAT WAS TOO MUCH. THAT'S WHEN I COULD NO LONGER SIMPLY HAVE A DISCUSSION OR DEBATE WITH THESE PEOPLE OR PUSH BACK. I COULDN'T ASSOCIATE WITH THEM. THAT'S WHAT IS THE DIVIDING LINE. >> DO YOU EVER SEE YOURSELF AS A REPUBLICAN AGAIN? IS THERE EVER A TIME THAT YOU COULD ENVISION PULLING THAT LEVER ON THE OTHER SIDE AGAIN? >> NO. I THINK ONE VIOLENT INSURRECTION, YOU CAN COUNT ME OUT. THEY HAVE GONE BEYOND. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT -- I DON'T KNOW IF I WILL BE ALIVE IN 50 YEARS. IF IN 50 YEARS THE CHARACTERS AREN'T AROUND THEN, IT'S A DIFFERENT PARTY, WHO KNOWS. THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN ITS CURRENT INCARNATION, NO. I WOULD NEVER SUPPORT ANY OF THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE IN ANY WAY SUPPORTED TRUMP OR BEEN SILENCED DURING THE TRUMP ERA. THEY REALLY HAVE BETRAYED AMERICA AND OUR DEMOCRACY. >> JENNIFER, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US. >> MY PLEASURE.