Amanpour and Company

>>> WELL, NOW WE TURN TO ANOTHER THREAT ENDANGERING THE LIVES OF MANY, AND THAT IS WAR.

THIS TIME, THROUGH THE LENS OF A JOURNALIST WHO WAS ON THE GROUND.

FROM THE U.S. WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN TO THE FAMINE IN SUDAN, AWARD-WINNING CORRESPONDENT JANE FERGUSON HAS ENCOUNTERED COUNTLESS CONFLICTS.

IN HER NEW BOOK, SHE WRITES ABOUT NAVIGATING FEELS OF HELPLESSNESS WHILE REMAINING CONFIDENT IN THE IMPACT OF HER WORK.

AND SHE JOINS HARI TO DISCUSS WHAT IT'S LIKE BEING A FEMALE WAR REPORTER.

>> JANE FERGUSON, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST, WE ARE SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE.

AND I HAVE TO SAY, IN FULL DISCLOSURE, WE WORKED TOGETHER BEFORE, YOU HAVE A CORRESPONDENT WITH PBS NEWS HOUR, A PROGRAM I'M VERY FAMILIAR WITH, AND IT HAS BEEN REMARKABLE TO READ THIS BOOK, "NO ORDINARY ASSIGNMENT," BECAUSE IT NOT ONLY TAUGHT ME A LOT ABOUT YOU, THINGS THAT I DIDN'T KNOW, BUT ALSO JUST KIND OF MADE ME LOOK AT OUR STORYTELLING AND OUR PROFESSION A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY.

SO, LET'S KIND OF GET INTO IT.

WHEN DID YOU KNOW THIS IS WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO?

>> IT'S A QUESTION I ALWAYS HAVE A VERY CLEAR ANSWER FOR, WHICH IS PRETTY MUCH AS EARLY AS I CAN REMEMBER.

I DON'T EVEN REALLY REMEMBER THINKING OF IT IN THE EARLY DAYS, AS A CHILD, AS A CAREER, AS A JOB, I JUST REMEMBER LOOKING AT IT WITH THE SORT OF WANDERLUST OF THE ACT TO TRAVEL THE WORLD AND TELL STORIES SEEMED LIKE AN INCREDIBLE LIFE.

I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK, I WOULD GROW UP READING ABOUT ADVENTURERS AND WATCHING THE TELEVISION AND REALLY STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WERE WOMEN OUT THERE IN THE WORLD DOING THIS KIND OF WORK, AND THE IDEA THAT I COULD, YOU KNOW, JOIN THE RANKS WAS SOMETHING THAT I WAS CAUGHT WITH VERY EARLY ON, AND I NEVER REALLY LET IT GO.

>> YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE KIND OF IVY LEAGUE AMERICAN SORT OF PELD AGREE THAT WE ASSOCIATE WITH SOME OF WHAT IS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT WORK.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHERE YOU GREW UP, WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE?

>> I GREW UP IN VERY RURAL NORTHERN IRELAND, AND IT WAS DURING WHAT WE CALL THE TROUBLES THERE, WHICH WAS A TIME OF GREAT VIOLENCE, AND SOCIAL UNREST, AS WELL AS UPRISINGS.

SO, YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS AN EDUCATION THAT WAS STATE-FUNDED, THAT WAS PRETTY GOOD, BUT I -- AND I WAS AS LUCKY ENOUGH TO SORT OF GROW UP IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE EDUCATION WAS EVERYTHING.

THE LOWER MIDDLE CLASS, WORKING CLASS, IT WAS AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR CULTURE WAS TO TRY TO GET EDUCATED, TO RAISE YOUR KIDS TO BECOME PROFESSIONALS IN THAT SENSE.

BUT I DIDN'T GO TO ANY OF THE ELITE AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES, I HAD NO IDEA WHEN I STARTED OFF BECOMING A JOURNALIST THAT THAT WOULD BE A DIFFICULTY, THAT THAT WOULD MAKE IT A LOT HARDER TO GET IN THE DOOR, AS YOU WOULD SAY.

I MANAGED TO GET MY FIRST FEW JOBS IN JOURNALISM AND I MOVED TO THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT THEN THE FINANCIAL CRISIS HAPPENED, AND THAT TENDED TO COMPOUND THAT SAME PROBLEM.

FOR YOUNG PEOPLE COMING UP, TRYING TO GET INTO THE BUSINESS, TRYING TO MOVE AHEAD, AND FIND PAYING WORK AS JOURNALISTS.

IT BECAME INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT, BECAUSE IT BECAME APPARENT THAT THERE REALLY IS A FILTER FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TRYING TO GET IN, WHERE IF YOU HAVEN'T GONE TO AN ELITE COLLEGE OR ELITE UNIVERSITY, YOU DON'T HAVE CONNECTIONS IN THE INDUSTRY, IT CAN BE EXTRAORDINARILY DIFFICULT.

AND I'M ACTUALLY GLAD I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WHEN I STARTED OUT, BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO INTIMIDATING, SO, MY OWN NIEVETY WAS VERY HELPFUL ALONG THE WAY.

>> YOU HAVE REPORTED FROM SOME OF THE MOST DANGEROUS PLACES, SOME OF THE MOST DIFFICULT PLACES FOR JOURNALISTS TO GET INTO, MUCH LESS REPORT FROM.

ONE OF THE QUOTES THAT YOU HAVE IN THE BOOK MAKES US THINK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WAR COVERAGE, IT SAYS, I HAVE KNOWN SINCE LONG BEFORE COVERING WARS HOW THERE ARE NO GOOD AND BAD SIDES, AND THAT REALITY IS A COMPLEX AND HARSH COLLECTION OF TRUTHS.

MORALITY BENDS.

GIVE US AN EXAMPLE OF A PLACE THAT YOU WENT TO WHERE PERHAPS THERE WAS KIND OF A DOMINANT NARRATIVE, BUT WHEN YOU GET ON THE GROUND, YOU SEE THE COMPLEXITY IN THINGS?

>> I THINK AFGHANISTAN IS A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE.

I MEAN, THERE ARE EXAMPLES ALL OVER THE WORLD.

BUT YOU KNOW, IN COVERING THE SORT OF POST-9/11 WORLD, WE REALLY DID SEE, YOU KNOW, THE LIMITATIONS ON REPORTING ON QUOTE UNQUOTE THE WAR ON TERROR.

YOU KNOW, WHAT IS A TERRORIST, YOU KNOW, WHAT -- ARE PEOPLE PRO-TERRORISM, ANTI-TERRORISM, THE REALITY IS, WHEN YOU REALLY SPEND TIME IN PLACES WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN RAISED, THINKING OF THINGS AS BLACK AND WHITE, PEOPLE AS GOOD OR BAD, YOU DO TEND TO -- TO SEE THINGS MUCH TOO SIMPLISTICALLY AND TOO MORALLY.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT AS A REPORTER TO NOT VIEW OUR STORIES THROUGH A MORAL LENS.

AND SO SPENDING A LOT OF TIME IN AFGHANISTAN, HAVING THE LUCK TO BE ABLE TO LIVE THERE AND REALLY STARTING TO UNDERSTAND THE MORE COMPLEX NATURE OF THE WAR THERE, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY THE TALIBAN HAVE, YOU KNOW, USED TERROR TACTICS AGAIN AND AGAIN.

THEY'VE BEEN MORE THAN WILLING TO SACRIFICE CIVILIAN LIVES AND TO KILL CIVILIANS AS PART OF THEIR TACTICS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU GO INTO TALIBAN-CONTROLLED AREAS, AND THIS IS BEFORE THEY TOOK OVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY, YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL TERRORIZED BY SOME OF THE GOVERNMENT SOLDIERS.

YOU TALK TO PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THEY AND THEIR OWN ETHNIC GROUPS AND FAMILIES AND BROADER COMMUNITIES ARE VERY MUCH SO MARGINALIZED.

SO, DO YOU START TO SEE THE GRAY AREAS IN BETWEEN, AND THAT'S REALLY WHERE YOU WANT TO BE AS A JOURNALIST.

YOU WANT TO BE IN THOSE GRAY AIRS YA HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND A MUCH DEEPER LEVEL OF TALIBAN VERSUS GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW, TALKING ABOUT THE MULTI-LAYERS ETHNIC TENSIONS IN THOSE AREAS.

THE VARIOUS TIT FOR TAT WAR CRIMES THAT BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY OF.

IT'S NOT BOTH SIDE-ISM, IT'S DETAIL AND HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DIFFICULT QUESTIONS THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALLY WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE.

>> AND YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS IN MOGADISHU.

TO STAND IN A HOSPITAL WITH A CAMERA AND NOT A STETHOSCOPE, TO OFFER NO TANGIBLE HELP TO THE PERSON SUFFERING IN FRONT OF YOU, TO VOIERISTICLY WINNESS THEIR SUFFERING, ALL OF IT IS GROTESQUE.

BUT YOU ARE DESCRIBING A SORT OF HELPLESSNESS THAT YOU CAN'T PHYSICALLY, YOU KNOW, IMPROVE THE SITUATION OF THAT ONE PERSON, AND YOU'VE GOT A CAMERA, NOT A MEDICAL KIT.

>> I TALKED TO A LOT OF MY FRIENDS IN THE INDUSTRY ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS OUR -- PEOPLE OFTEN THINK, OH, MY GOODNESS, THE WORST PART OF YOUR JOB MUST BE THE EXHAUSTION, THE FOOD POISONING, THE DANGER.

NOTHING OF THE SORT.

THE WORST PART OF THIS WORK IS THAT DANGEROUS WHISPERED DOUBT, AM I MAKING A DIFFERENCE HERE, YOU KNOW?

WE'RE NOT WATER ENGINEERS, WE'RE NOT DOCTORS, WE'RE NOT PILOTS.

AND SO, YES, THERE'S -- THERE'S OFTEN, WHEN YOU'RE THERE, THIS SENSE OF HELPLESSNESS, AND GUILT AND SHAKE, IF YOU ARE NOT CAREFUL.

WE KNOW WE HAVE PLAYING AN IMPORTANT ROLE ON A BROADER SCALE, AND I DO BELIEVE TO MY CORE THAT JOURNALISM, ESPECIALLY REPORTING FROM CONFLICT ZONES AND MAJOR CRISES AROUND THE WORLD, PLAYS AN IMPORTANT ROLE, BUT THE PROBLEM IS, I CAN'T HELP THIS PERSON SITTING IN FRONT OF ME.

I CAN GENERALLY HELP THESE PEOPLE, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN YOU SEE THE IMPACT.

WHEN IT COMES TO DIPLOMACY AND AID AND MAJOR, MAJOR AWARENESS WITHIN POPULATIONS, BUT I CAN'T HELP THIS PERSON, WHO I'M FILMING.

AND THAT'S A VERY, VERY TOUGH REALITY TO ACCEPT.

AND COMPOUNDED BY THE FACT THAT MANY OF US JOURNALISTS GET ASKED FOR HELP ALL THE TIME, BECAUSE PEOPLE THINK WE ARE DOCTORS AND NURSES AND AID WORKERS, OR ARE YOU FROM THE U.N. OR THE RED CROSS?

CAN YOU HELP ME FIND MY CHILD?

IT'S REALLY APPALLING, WHEN YOU HAVE TO SAY, I'M SO SORRY, I'M JUST A JOURNALIST, AND YOU WAVE YOUR NOTEPAD AROUND AND THOSE MOMENTS ARE VERY TOUGH TO TAKE.

>> YOU SAID AT THE FALL OF KABUL UNTIL 2021 THAT A SWITCH FLIPPED FOR YOU, YOU DESCRIBE IT AS, I DIDN'T WANT TO BE A SPEAK DAY OR THE ANYMORE.

I REFUSED TO JUST WATCH THIS HAPPEN.

SO OFTEN, AS JOURNALISTS, THERE'S THIS TENSION THAT WE SHOULD NOT GET INVOLVED, BUT IN THAT SCENARIO, WHAT HAPPENED THAT LED YOU TO BE, WELL, THE LAST AMERICAN JOURNALIST, YOU AND ERIC, YOUR CAMERAMAN, BUT PART OF WHAT, MAYBE, EIGHT PEOPLE THAT WERE THE LAST JOURNALISTS TO GET OUT OF THERE ON EVACUATION FLIGHTS?

>> I THINK IT REALLY IS A BUILDUP, FOR ME, I THINK THE BOOK, HOPEFULLY, CONVEYED HOW THIS WAS SORT OF MOMENT AT THE END OF A VERY LONG STRING OF MOMENTS, WHERE I HAD GRAPPLED FOR YEARS WITH, AM I MAKING A DIFFERENCE, AM I HELPING PEOPLE, SHOULD I BE HELPING PEOPLE, WHAT IS MY ROLE HERE?

BUT WHEN I WAS IN KABUL, I FOUND A UNIQUE MOMENT WHEREBY ALL OF THE RULES WERE COLLAPSING.

THERE WAS NO REAL SYSTEM.

PEOPLE SPEAK ENGLISH, SO, I WAS ABLE TO WORK WITH THEM BACK AND FORTH AND HELPING PEOPLE GET OUT WAS SOMETHING THAT I WAS ABLE TO DO.

I WAS IN A PRIVILEGED POSITION OF BEING ABLE TO ADVISE THEM ON WHAT PAPERWORK THEY NEEDED, NEGOTIATING FOR THEM WITH THE SOLDIERS, PULLING THEM OUT OF THE CROWD, AND THAT WAS SOME SMALL, SMALL WAY THAT I COULD HELP.

AND I COULD DO IT AND DO MY WORK AND FILE EVERY NIGHT A STORY, SO -- THAT WAS ONE MOMENT WHERE I JUST FELT LIKE I COULDN'T LIVE WITH MYSELF, IF I CAN'T ACTUALLY DO WHAT IS CLEARLY POSSIBLE RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE THINGS, HARI, THAT ARE JUST SO MUCH BIGGER THAN YOUR CAREER AND WORK.

THEY BECOME MOMENTS IN YOUR LIFE WHEN YOU'RE AWARE YOU'LL REMEMBER THIS FOREVER.

>> I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE ROLE THAT GENDER HAS PLAYED AND HOW IT HAS AFFECTED YOUR REPORTING, BECAUSE AT TIMES, YOU HIGHLIGHT -- THERE WAS A PERIOD WHEN YOU WERE WITH AL JAZEERA AND ONE OF YOUR BOSSES SAID, I DON'T WANT A WOMAN ON THAT STORY.

AND THERE ARE OTHER TIMES WHERE YOU ARE MADE TO BE VERY CONSCIOUS OF THE FACT THAT A WOMAN IN THIS PROFESSION HAS A WHOLE LIST OF OTHER CHALLENGES THAT A MAN DOES NOT, WHEN IT JUST COMES TO SUCCEEDING, ESPECIALLY ON-CAMERA.

>> I ALWAYS SAY, HARI, WHEN PEOPLE ASK ME, AND THEY ASK ME A LOT, YOU KNOW, WHAT MUST IT BE LIKE WORKING IN SUCH CONSERVATIVE COUNTRIES AS A WOMAN?

AND I ALWAYS SAY THAT, YES, THERE ARE CHALLENGES, THERE ARE CERTAIN MEETINGS, SOCIAL EVENTS, THERE ARE CERTAIN WAYS OF SOCIALIZING WITH MEN IN POWER THAT CULTURALLY IT'S HARDER FOR ME TO DO.

IT'S HARDER TO GET INTO CERTAIN ROOMS SOMETIMES WHERE THERE'S MORE INFORMAL NETWORKING AND MALE JOURNALISTS MIGHT HAVE OFTEN HAVE BETTER ACCESS.

THAT IS VERY OFTEN BALANCED OUT BY THE FACT THAT I DO ACTUALLY GET ACCESS TO WOMEN, AND SO I'M LUCKY THAT I CAN -- I CAN SPEND TIME WITH WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN, I CAN SPEND TIME WITH WOMEN IN YEMEN, WHERE MY MALE COLLEAGUES, IT'S OFTEN A TOTAL NO-NO.

BUT THERE ARE BEEN MOMENTS IN MY CAREER WHERE IT'S VERY OFTEN THE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE -- THAT WOMEN END UP HAVING TO CONTEND WITH, AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES, I MEAN, THERE WAS THAT MOMENT AT AL JAZEERA, WHICH WAS VERY ON THE NOSE, WHICH WAS VERY IN MY FACE, BUT VERY OFTEN, IT'S MORE JUST INFERRED.

IT'S THE FACT THAT WE WORK IN TELEVISION, IT PUTS SO MUCH PRESSURE ON WOMEN TO LOOK A CERTAIN WAY IN THE FIELD.

AND THAT PRESSURE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A PARTICULARLY AGEIST INDUSTRY FOR WOMEN, YOU KNOW, THAT -- HAVING THE PRESSURE TO LOOK GOOD AND THEN HAVING THIS TICKING CLOCK GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME, THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU MUST MAKE IT BY THIS STAGE, FOR YOUR CAREER TO EVER ASCEND TO THIS.

THESE ARE PRESSURES THAT FEMALE JOURNALISTS CARRY AROUND WITH US ALL THE TIME.

I AM AWARE OF HOW ABSURD IT IS THAT I'M STANDING IN A REFUGEE CAMP COMBING MY HAIR AND APPLYING MAKEUP.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S NORMAL.

I ALSO THINK IT'S SILLY, BUT IT IS OFTEN NECESSARY, BECAUSE WE STILL WORK IN A COMPETITIVE INDUSTRY THAT IS VERY OFTEN RUN BY MEN.

AND VERY OFTEN WOMEN ARE, IN FACT, I WOULD SAY, ALWAYS, WILLIAM ARE TO A CERTAIN EXTENT JUDGED BY THEIR LOOKS, AS WELL AS THEIR OTHER SKILL SETS.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WOMEN IN THE INDUSTRY, I THINK WHENEVER WE REALLY THINK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT ARE -- THAT CHALLENGE US AS WOMEN, THAT'S WHAT SORT OF -- THAT IS WHAT HAS THE MOST IMPACT ON OUR CAREERS.

AND THEREFORE CAUSES US THE MOST STRESS.

>> I WONDER ABOUT WHETHER YOU JUST FEEL LUCKY SOMETIMES, I MEAN, THERE -- YOU DESCRIBE A COUPLE OF SCENARIOS THAT ARE JUST KIND OF EERIE.

THE PLACE THAT YOU USED TO LIVE IN BEIRUT, FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU HAD BEEN THERE A COUPLE OF MONTHS LONGER, IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THAT ENORMOUS EXPLOSION THAT WE ALL REMEMBER.

OR MORE TELLINGLY, THAT YOU WERE KIND OF BEHIND THE LINES IN SYRIA WITH ACTIVISTS AND AFTER YOU LEFT, THE NEXT CREW IN THERE, WHEN THEY WERE IN THERE, MARIE COLEMAN, A JOURNALIST, WAS KILLED IN A BOMBING ATTACK.

AND I WONDER, I MEAN, WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU THINK OF WHEN YOU REALIZE, I WAS STANDING IN THIS SAME PLACE THAT SHE WAS AND HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR TIMING?

>> I THINK IT MAKES YOU EXTRAORDINARILY GRATEFUL, YOU KNOW?

ALL I CAN -- WHEN I ANSWER QUESTIONS ON THAT, ALL I CAN SAY IS, I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT.

YOU KNOW, I DO THINK LIVING IN PARTICULARLY SPIRITUAL PLACES WHERE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DO HAVE A VERY STRONG, CLOSE AFFINITY WITH RELIGION, HAS MADE ME MUCH LESS ON STIJN NATTILY ATE YISIC AS A KID.

I FIND THAT HARD TO DENY.

BUT I ALSO JUST THINK, ALL YOU CAN DO IS RECOGNIZE GRACE WHEN YOU SEE IT.

IF YOU'VE BEEN SPARED, FOR WHATEVER REASON, YOU'LL NEVER KNOW.

IF YOU HAVE BEEN SPARED, IT'S JUST ANOTHER EVEN GREATER REASON TO BE VERY GRACEFUL FOR YOUR LIFE.

PEOPLE ASK ME IF I'M AN ADRENALINE JUNKY, IF I LOVE RISK -- I CERTAINLY DON'T.

I WOULD -- I HAVE A GOOD LIFE, AND I'M -- AND I FEAR DEATH, BUT I'M ALSO AWARE OF HOW EXTRAORDINARILY BLESSED MY LIFE IS, AND, YOU KNOW, WHENEVER YOU LOOK BACK AND REALIZE THERE WERE MOMENTS IN YOUR LIFE WHEN IT ALL COULD HAVE BEEN OVER, YOU DO LOOK AT THE QUALITY OF YOUR LIFE AND YOUR RELATIONSHIPS AND ALL THE BLESSINGS THAT YOU HAVE, AND I THINK THAT I'VE BEEN LUCKY TO HAVE CLARITY IN THOSE MOMENTS AFTERWARDS.

WHERE I JUST, YOU KNOW, TRY NOT TO TAKE MY LIFE FOR GRANTED.

>> YOU KNOW, FINALLY, I SEE THAT YOU ARE AN OPTIMIST, I MEAN, I GUESS READING YOUR MEMOIR, IT'S HARD NOT TO SEE WHY YOU WOULDN'T BE ONE, CONSIDERING WHAT YOU'VE LIVED THROUGH ALREADY, BUT I WONDER WHAT YOUR THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT KIND OF THE STATE OF JOURNALISM AND FOREIGN COVERAGE TODAY?

>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO DOUBTING THAT TELEVISION NEWS IN ITS CURRENT FORMAT IS DYING AND WILL DIE VERY SOON.

OPINION IS CHEAP, IT'S SO CHEAP TO JUST HAVE TALKING HEADS AND PEOPLE JUST SHOUTING AT ONE ANOTHER.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEY TONIGHT NEED AIRLINE TICKETS AND HOTEL ROOMS AND CAMERA PEOPLE AND DRIVERS.

BUT I ALSO BELIEVE FIRMLY THAT JOURNALISM WILL SURVIVE.

IT WILL SURVIVE THE JUMP ONLINE.

I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE STILL WATCHING AND READING QUALITY JOURNALISM.

THE CHALLENGE IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A BUSINESS MODEL AROUND IT.

HOW DO WE MAKE IT WORK SO THAT WE CAN KEEP DOING OUR WORK?

I DON'T REALLY CARE WHERE PEOPLE WATCH MY STORIES, SO LONG AS THEY WATCH THEM.

I WANT TO KNOW THAT JOURNALISM IS GOING TO SURVIVE, THAT -- AND I DO THINK IT WILL, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE READING QUALITY NEWSPAPERS, AND WHO ARE WATCHING, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE -- EVEN "60 MINUTES" GETS A MASS FIVE VIEWERSHIP.

SO, I DON'T DOUBT THAT THINGS WILL GO ONLINE AND PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE WATCHING.

THE DIFFICULTY WILL BE SEEING WHAT ALSO TAKES THE SPACE, AS WELL.

WHETHER IT'S EXTREME OPINIONS ON BOTH SIDES, A LOT OF -- OF TALKING, A LOT OF PUNDITRY, A LOT OF, AS YOU SAY, MISINFORMATION, GOING ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

I GREW UP WATCHING THE BBC.

I BELIEVE IN PUBLIC BROADCASTING, AND NONCORPORATE MEDIA WILL, I THINK, CONTINUE TO PLAY AN EVEN MORE IMPORTANT ROLE IN HOLDING THE GROUND ON QUALITY JOURNALISM.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "NO ORDINARY ASSIGN."

AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST JANE FERGUSON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, HARI.