Amanpour and Company

>>> AND NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES WHERE THE SUPREME COURT WILL SOON MAKE A FINAL RULING ON ROE VERSUS WADE. THE JANES IS A NEW HBO DOCUMENTARY TAKING US WHACK TO THE LATE '60s A EARLY E '70s WHEN APPORTION WAS ILLEGAL AND THE JANE UNDER GROUND PROVIDED A SAFE PLACE FOR PREGNANT WOMEN TO SEEK HELP. HEATHER BOOTH FOUNDED IT IN 1969 WHEN HELPING A FRIEND FIND AN ABORTION DOCTOR. A MEMBER ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT ABORTION WHEN THE CLINIC WAS RAIDED IN 1972. THE CHARGES WERE DROPPED WHEN THE COURT DECIDED ON ROE v. WADE. THEY JOIN TO DISCUSS JANE AND LIFE WITHOUT ROE VERSUS WADE. >> THANKS. WELCOME TO BOTH OUR GUESTS. SO, HEATHER BOOTH, WHO WAS JANE? WHAT WAS JANE? WHAT KIND OF SERVICES DID YOU PROVIDE? >> JANE BECAME AN UNDERGROUND SERVICE TO PROVIDE CARING SUPPORT FOR WOMEN WHO WANTED TO END A PREGNANCY BEFORE ROE. HAD WHEN THREE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ABORTION WAS A CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT A FELONY BUT THE WOMEN WHO WERE INVOLVED IN IT, WE CARED ABOUT WOMEN, WE CARED ABOUT OUR COMMUNITY, AND TREATING OTHERS AS WE WANT TREATED. I HAVE NEVER FACED THE SITUATION MYSELF. PEOPLE WERE IN SUCH NEED. SOME WERE SUICIDAL. SOME TOOK LYE OR DID DAMAGE TO THEMSELVES. SOME ENDED UP ON THESE SEPTIC ABORTION WARDS AND HOSPITALS BECAUSE OF THE INJURY THAT THEY FACED. SO, WE WERE A RESPONSE TO THAT PROBLEM. >> I ALSO WAN TO ADD IN THIS ERA HERE, I MEAN, THE BIRTH-CONTROL PILL WAS NOT AVAILABLE UNTIL, WHAT, 1972? YOU COULDN'T SUE FOR SEXUAL HARASSMENT UNTIL '77. YOU COULD BE FIRED FOR BEING PREGNANT UNTIL 1978. I MEAN, SPOUSAL RAPE WASN'T EVEN A CRIMINAL ACT AND ALL 50 STATES UNTIL I WANT TO SAY 1993. SO WHAT WERE REASON, JEAN, THAT WOMEN WERE COMING TO YOU? WHY? WHAT WERE THEIR OPTIONS BEFORE THEY CALLED THAT NUMBER? >> THEY -- THEY HAD -- THEY HAD VERY FEW OPTIONS. UM, MIDDLE-CLASS WOMEN WHO HAD SYMPATHETIC DOCTORS AND MEDICAL REASONS COULD GO BEFORE A HOSPITAL BOARD ESSENTIALLY. AND BEG FOR AN ABORTION. AND OCCASIONALLY, THAT WOULD BE GRANTED. AND THEY COULD HAVE A LEGAL ABORTION. UM, BUT BY AND LARGE, THERE WERE -- THERE WERE NO OPTIONS THAT WERE -- WERE NOT CLANDESTINE REALLY. UM, WHEN I WAS LOOKING FOR BIRTH CONTROL, SOMEBODY SLIPPED ME A LITTLE PIECE OF PAPER WITH THE NAME OF -- AND PHONE NUMBER OF A DOCTOR WHO WAS WILLING TO GIVE BIRTH CONTROL TO SINGLE WOMEN. IT WAS -- IT WAS -- EVEN THAT WAS CLANDESTINE. THERE WERE NO OPTIONS AND THAT WAS THE PROBLEM. AND I CAN'T EMPHASIZE ENOUGH HOW -- HOW -- WHAT A TREMENDOUS THING IT WAS FOR THESE WOMEN, THE WOMEN WHO CAME THROUGH ZWRAN, TO TRUST US. THEY DIDN'T KNOW US. THEY HAD NO WAY TO KNOW US. SOME HAD HEARD FROM US FROM OTHER WOMEN WHO HAD BEEN THROUGH THE SERVICE BUT THEY WERE TAKING A TERRIBLE RISK. THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHEN THEY WERE GOING TO GET THESE MAFIA-ASSOCIATED ABORTIONISTS. UM, SOMEBODY WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. AND WE TRUSTED THEM BACK. TO BE IN THE POSITION OF HAVING THREE OR FOUR CHILDREN AND NO MONEY TO HAVE ANOTHER OR IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WHERE YOU WOULD BE TIED TO SOMEONE FOREVER IF YOU HAD A BABY, WAS TERRIFYING. >> I WANT TO SET UP A CLIP IF I CAN TO TRY TO GIVE PEOPLE AND OUR AUDIENCE IN 2022, SOME SEMBLANCE OF AN IDEA OF WHAT THAT ERA WAS LIKE. >> WE WERE VERY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT, UM, WOMEN WERE SUFFERING IN A VARIETY OF WAYS BECAUSE OF ABORTION BEING AGAINST THE LAW. WOMEN DID AWFUL THINGS OUT OF FEAR AND DESPERATION. WE KNEW THAT SOME WOULD BE INJURED, SOME WOULD DIE. MANY PEOPLE AROUND THEM, INCLUDING CHILDREN THEY ALREADY HAD WOULD SUFFER. SO, WE THOUGHT WE CAN BE OF USE. YOU NEED AN ABORTION, WE WILL HELP YOU. CALL THIS NUMBER AND ASK FOR JANE. >> JANE, TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT KIND OF THE PRACTICAL NATURE OF WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT PHONE CALL? >> THE ANSWERING MACHINE WOULD SAY "THIS IS JANE OF I AM'S LIBERATION. PLEASE LEAVE YOUR NAME, YOUR PHONE NUMBER, AND THE DATE OF YOUR LAST PERIOD." AND THEN, THEY WOULD BE CALLED BACK AND MORE INFORMATION WOULD BE ELICITED BY THE -- BY ONE OF THE WOMEN CALLED THE CALL-BACK CHAIN. AND THEN, WITH UNS WE HAD ALL THAT INFORMATION, WE WOULD PATS THEM AROUND AND PEOPLE WOULD TAKE -- TAKE THE CARDS OF WOMEN WHO LIVED NEARBY SO THAT IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR THEM TO REACH YOU. UM, YOU COULD CALL THEM AND INVITE THEM INTO YOUR HOME AND YOU WOULD EXPLAIN WHAT THE PROCEDURE WAS. YOU WOULD ELICIT ANY OTHER INFORMATION. WE ALSO DISTRIBUTED LITERATURE. WE DISTRIBUTED THE BIRTH CONTROL HANDBOOK, HOPEFULLY SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO COME AGAIN. AND ONCE THEY HAD BEEN COUNSELED, THEY WENT TO THAT ADDRESS. THEY WENT TO THE ADDRESS WHERE WE WOULD BUY APARTMENTS WHERE THE WOMEN WOULD WAIT. IT WAS OFTEN A ROWDY ENVIRONMENT WITH LITTLE KIDS RUNNING AROUND AND WE WOULD HAVE SNACKS BECAUSE THAT'S -- WE WERE WOMEN AND WE HAD TO FEED PEOPLE. UM, AND THEN, FROM THERE, THEY WOULD BE DRIVEN TO WHAT WE CALL THE POLICE. THOSE WERE OFTEN BARRED APARTMENTS. THOUGH EVENTUALLY, WE DID RENT A PLACE THAT WE COULD KEEP SET UP. OTHERWISE, WE WOULD HAVE TO GO IN AND WE WOULD HAVE TO SET UP THE WHOLE PLACE AND PUT NEW SHEETS ON THE BED AND STERILIZE THE INSTRUMENTS AND ALL -- ALL KINDS OF THINGS BUT WE COULD KEEP THAT APARTMENT READY AND THAT WAS WHERE THE ABORTION WAS PERFORMED. WE TRIED TO MAKE THE ATMOSPHERE UNMEDICAL BECAUSE MEDICINE THEN WAS SO PATERNALISTIC. WE HAD BRIGHT SHEETS AND WE ALWAYS HAD AN EXTRA WOMAN IN THE ROOM WHO COULD HOLD A HAND. WHO COULD TALK PEOPLE THROUGH IT. SO, WHILE THE ABORTIONIST WAS BUSY DOING THE PROCEDURE, SOMEONE COULD EXPLAIN WHAT WAS GOING ON. ASSURE THEM THAT DISCOMFORT WOULD LAST ONLY A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME. LET THEM KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT. AND UM, AND JUST BE THERE TO HAVE YOUR HAND SQUEEZED, SOMETIMES VERY HARD. AND THAT WAS -- THAT WAS THE PROCEDURE. THEN, THEY WERE DRIVEN BACK TO THE FRONT AND THEY WERE -- THEY WENT HOME WITH THEIR FAMILY. >> HOW WAS THIS ORGANIZATION ABLE TO GET AWAY, SO TO SPEAK, WITH SOMETHING THAT WAS UNDERGROUND? I MEAN, AN UNDERGROUND ORGANIZATION STILL ABLE TO PERFORM SOME-11,000 ABORTIONS IS PRETTY STUNNING. >> I THINK THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO REASONS THAT THAT HAPPENED. ONE IS IT WAS UNDERGROUND. WE WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT IT. SO WE JUST CONTINUED WITH THE WORK. THE OTHER IS THAT WE ALWAYS THOUGHT THE POLICE KNEW ABOUT IT. WHEN I WAS COUNSELING EARLY ON, A WOMAN MARRY TODAY A POLICEMAN CAME IN WITH HER DAUGHTER WHO WAS NEEDING AN ABORTION. AND WERE SO GRATEFUL TO GET THE SUPPORT AND THOUGH I DIDN'T ASK, I HAD EVERY REASON, I HAD EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE IT WAS HER -- THAT IT WAS THE POLICEMAN WHO DIRECTED HIS WIFE ABOUT WHERE TO GO. SO, WE THINK THAT IT ACTUALLY WAS A SERVICE THAT WAS USEFUL IN THE SOCIETY. AND BECAUSE IT HADN'T BEEN POLITICIZED AND MADE A PARTISAN ISSUE AND HADN'T BEEN FUNDED FOR THE ATTACK ON IT. >> WHO IS DR. MIKE? UM, AND WHO ARE THE PEOPLE THAT WERE TRAINING TO DO THESE PROCEDURES? >> SO WE WERE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR OTHER -- OTHER PEOPLE. OTHER DOCTORS. THAT'S THE WAY WE THOUGHT WHO COULD PERFORM THE PROCEDURES AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT HE FOUND -- AND EACH TIME WE FOUND SOMEONE, WE TALKED TO THE WOMAN AFTERWARDS. WE ASSESSED WHETHER THEY WERE GOOD. SOMETIMES, DOCTORS WOULD HIT ON THE WOMEN. WE CAME ACROSS MIKE AS ONE OF THE PEOPLE AND THEN WE WERE VERY HAPPY WITH HIM. HE DID A GOOD JOB. THE WOMEN HAD A GOOD EXPERIENCE. AND HE WAS AN ENGAGING, VALUABLE PERSON. HE WOULD TALK TO THE WOMEN AND HE WOULD REASSURE THEM WHICH WAS, AS I SAID EARLIER, NOT COMMON. SO, WE WERE VERY COMFORTABLE WORKING WITH HIM, AND EVENTUALLY HE BECAME, UM, VERY GOOD FRIENDS WITH SOME OF THE WOMEN IN THE SERVICE. AND AT SOME POINT, HE WAS INTERESTED IN GETTING OUT OF THE BUSINESS. HE WASN'T -- HE DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT ANYMORE. AND WE HAD DISCOVERED THAT HE WASN'T A DOCTOR. HE HAD JUST LEARNED HOW TO DO THIS. AND ONE OF THE WOMEN IN THE SERVICE WHO HAD BECOME CLOSE TO MIKE SAID IF HE CAN DO IT, I CAN DO IT AND PERSUADED HIM TO TEACH HER. AND, YOU KNOW, LEARNING A PROCEDURE LIKE THIS, IT IS A RELATIVELY SIMPLE PROCEDURE. SO, FIRST, WITH UNWOMAN LEARNED AND THEN SHE TAUGHT ANOTHER. AND THEN, WOMEN, FOR EXAMPLE, I HAD GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE IT EXISTED. SO FIRST, I LEARNED -- I WATCHED A WOMAN PUT A SHOT INTO THE CERVIX TO RELAX IT AND THEN SHE SHOWED ME HOW TO DO IT AND THEN I DID IT AND I LEARNED HOW TO PUT A SPECULUM IN A WAY THAT WAS COMFORTABLE FOR A WOMAN. NOT SOMETHING I HAD EVER DONE BUT YOU WATCH AND LEARN AND THEN YOU TRY AND AND YOU DO IT. SO THAT HE IS HOW IT -- IT JUST EVOLVED. AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT BECAUSE WE WERE DOING IT OURSELVES, WE THEN HAD CONTROL. WE COULD SET THE PRICE. WE COULD SET HOW MANY WE COULD DO WHICH GOT TO BE A LOT. I MEAN, REALLY, WE WERE DOING WE AVERAGED ABOUT 40 TO $50 PER PERSON, WHICH WAS ENOUGH. AND UM, AND THAT HE IS WHAT -- AND THAT -- ONCE WE HAD THAT CONTROL, UM, IT MEANT THAT WE COULD LET MAKE ABORTION ACCESSIBLE TO ALL THOSE PEOPLE. >> I WANT TO SET UP A CLIP HERE OF WHAT HAPPENED WHEN NEW YORK DECIDED THAT THESE PROCEDURES COULD HAPPEN IN THAT STATE. SO LET'S TAKE A LOOK. >> WHEN NEW YORK LEGALIZED ABORTION IN 1970, THAT MEANT THAT ALL THOSE WHITE-COLLARED STUDENTS WHO COULD SEE THEMSELVES GETTING ON A PLANE AND FLYING TO NEW YORK AND GETTING AN ABORTION AND FLYING BACK DID THAT. THAT IS WHAT REALLY CHANGED THE DEMOGRAPHICS. >> IF YOU HAVE OTHER KID, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE MONEY, IT WAS HARD TO DO. A DECENT, ONE-BEDROOM APARTMENT IN CHICAGO WAS GOING FOR ABOUT $150 A MONTH. LEGAL ABORTIONS COST BETWEEN 500 AND $600. WOMEN OF COLOR WERE KIND JUST ON THE OUTS BECAUSE THAW COULDN'T AFFORD IT AND TO IT ME THAT WAS JUST OUTRAGEOUS. >> TELL ME HOW THINGS CHANGED AFTER NEW YORK LEGALIZED ABORTION. WHAT -- WHAT WAS REVEALED? >> AFTER NEW YORK, WOMEN WERE ANGRY. THEY WEREN'T APOLOGETIC ANYMORE. THEY SAID IF -- IF A WOMAN IN NEW YORK CAN DO IT, WHY CAN'T I? AND THEY WERE ANGRY. AND THEY STOPPED JUSTIFYING THEMSELVES WHICH I THOUGHT WAS WONDERFUL. THEY REALIZED THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE THIS RIGHT. >> IF THE LAW IS OVERTURNED -- IF ROE IS OVERTURNED, WHAT IT WILL MEAN IS THAT PEOPLE WITH FINANCIAL MEANS, WITH FAMILY SUPPORTS, WITH COMMUNITIES OF SUPPORT, WITH EDUCATION ABOUT THE POSSIBILITIES OF WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO THEM, IT'S QUITE LIKELY THEY WILL FIND A WAY TO END AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY. BUT FOR THE WOMEN WHO ARE POOR, WHO ARE MORE ISOLATED, WHO ARE LESS CONNECTED TO THE RESOURCES THAT WOULD BE NEEDED -- FINANCIAL AND OTHERWISE -- SO, POOR WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR, WOMEN IN AREAS AWAY FROM CITY CENTERS. THEY WILL BE THE ONES INTO FORCED PREGNANCIES, INTO HARDER LIVES. AND THEIR LIVES AND THE LIVES OF THEIR FAMILIES ARE LIKELY TO BE DIMINISHED. >> HEATHER, I WANT TO ASK YOU, HERE WE ARE TODAY -- DECADES LATER -- AFTER THE WORK THAT YOU STARTED AND THERE IS A FAIRLY DECENT CHANCE THAT ROE v. WADE IS EITHER SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKENED IF NOT OVERTURNED OUTRIGHT. AND I WONDER WHAT GOES THROUGH YOUR MIND. ARE THERE GOING TO BE OTHER JANE-LIKE OPERATIONS IF THAT HAPPENS? >> THERE ALREADY ARE OPERATIONS LIKE THIS. MANY THINGS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THOSE EARLY DAYS. AND JUST AS THERE ARE 26 STATES THAT ARE READY TO PUSH BACK AGAINST REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM IF ROE IS OVERTURNED IN WHOLE OR IN PART. THERE ARE ALSO STATES THAT WOULD BECOME SANCTUARY STATES -- NEW YORK, CALIFORNIA, AND OTHERS. AND THERE ARE PEOPLE SETTING ABOVE GROUND, AS WELL AS UNDERGROUND TRANSPORTATION-MEDICAL CARE. A LOT OF THE CARE IS ALSO NOW DONE BY MEDICATION. PROBABLY, OVER HALF THE ABORTIONS PROVIDED NOW ARE MEDICALLY PROVIDING. AND THE BIGGEST THING THAT'S CHANGED, THOUGH, IS THAT WE HAVE ALL CHANGED. RIGHT NOW, OVER 80% OF THIS COUNTRY BELIEVES THAT A POLITICIAN SHOULD NOT COME BETWEEN A WOMAN AND HER PHYSICIAN ON MAKING THIS MOST INTIMATE DECISION OF OUR LIVES. THIS OVERWHELMINGLY HAS POPULAR SUPPORT. LARGE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY REALLY DOESN'T THINK THAT ROE SHOULD BE OVERTURNED AND PEOPLE REALIZED THAT THIS IS A STORY OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO THEIR SISTER, THEIR COUSIN, THEIR FRIEND CAN HAPPEN TO THEM. SO THERE WILL BE PROTEST. THERE WILL BE ORGANIZATION. THERE WILL BE NEW SERVICES PROVIDED AND WE ALSO NEED TO COME TOGETHER AND DRIVE THIS ISSUE INTO THE ELECTIONS TO SAY THAT THE POLITICIANS AND THE COURTS NEED TO REPRESENT THE POPULAR WILL AND BUILD A MORE CARING SOCIETY FOR THE FUTURE. >> IT IS AVAILABLE NOW ON HBO AND MBO MAX. THANK YOU, BOTH HEATHER BOOTH AND JEAN. THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.