Amanpour and Company

>>> NEXT, A DIFFERENT CALL FOR ACTION, THIS ONE IN THE FASHION WORLD.

CAMERON RUSSELL WAS FIRST SCOUTED AGE 16.

SINCE THEN, SHE'S NODDLED FOR CALVIN KLEIN AND RALPH LAUREN, AND APPEARED IN VOGUE AND ELLE.

SHE HAS LONG CALLED OUT HARD TRUTHS IN HER INDUSTRY.

A TED TALK SHE GAVE IN 2012 IS STILL ONE OF THE MOST VIEWED.

HER NEW MEMOIR, "HOW TO MAKE HERSELF AGREEABLE TO EVERYONE" EXPLOING FEELING BOTH OBJECT IF IS AND COMPLICIT IN THE SYSTEM THAT MADE HER CAREER.

MICHEL MARTIN HAS MORE.

>> CAMERON RUSSELL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PEOPLE, IF THEY DON'T KNOW YOUR NAME, PROBABLY KNOW YOUR FACE.

YOU'VE BEEN WORKING AS A MODEL FOR MANY YEARS NOW.

THIS BOOK IS REALLY SHOCKING.

LET'S JUST SAY IT, IT'S SHOCKING TO ME, AS A PERSON, WHO IS AN OUTSIDE TO THE INDUSTRY.

WHAT MADE YOU WRITE IT?

>> YOU KNOW, I HAD A WORD IN MY HEAD, AND IT JUST GOT STUCK IN MY HEAD AND I WANTED TO INVESTIGATE IT.

THE WORD WAS TOLERATE.

I WAS THINKING ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT I HAD CONSENTED TO, HAD TOLERATED, AND THAT WORD, THE SORT OF RELATIONALNESS OF IT, LIKE, WHY WE DO THINGS AND WANTING TO BE AGREEABLE, JUST STUCK WITH ME AS SUCH A COMPLICATED IDEA, BECAUSE IT HAS BENEFITS AND IT HAS DRAWBACKS, IT MAKES US SPEECHLESS AND POWERFUL, AND SO, I JUST SORT OF STARTED THINKING ABOUT THAT WORD, AND WANTED TO WRITE SOMETHING THAT COULDN'T BE SAID IN AN INSTAGRAM FRAME OR IN FIVE MINUTES.

AND I THINK FINDING THE WAY TO TELL THIS STORY, WHICH IS COMPLEX, REALLY CAME FROM STARTING TO READ OTHER MODEL MEMOIRS, ACTUALLY.

AND READING, FOR EXAMPLE, IMAN'S WORDS, WHERE SHE TALKS ABOUT FEELING BOTH OBJECT IF IED AND HARMED AND ALSO COMPLICIT.

AND BEING ABLE TO SAY, IT'S OKAY TO SIT WITH THAT DUALITY.

THAT WAS SORT OF A LIBERATING IDEA FOR ME, AS I STARTED TO WRITE.

>> TALK A LITTLE BIT, IF YOU WOULD, ABOUT HOW THE BOUNDARY CROSSING STARTS.

>> I THINK ABOUT WHAT I WAS ABLE TO TOLERATE AND WHY, AND I THINK OF MY MOM, WHO RAISED ME TO BE SO TOUGH AND SO RESILIENT, AND IN FACT, EQUIPPED ME VERY WELL TO SWIM IN WATER THAT WAS PATRIARCHAL.

AND THAT SAME TOUGHNESS IN A WAY ALLOWED ME TO PERSIST.

AND A LOT OF THOSE EARLY STORIES, I THINK, WILL FEEL FAMILIAR TO MANY YOUNG WOMEN, YOU KNOW, THINKING THAT I HAD DONE A DOUBLE KISS WRONG, WHEN SOMEONE KISSED ME ON THE LIPS, OR, YOU KNOW, HAVING SOMEONE WATCH ME CHANGE AND THEN BEING TOLD BY MY AGENT, YOU HAVE TO GO SHOOT WITH THEM AFTERHOURS, AND THEY'RE PULLING THE STRAPLESS BRA DOWN TO GET THE SHOT THEY WANT AND I LOOK DOWN AND IT'S COME OFF.

AND IN THAT MOMENT, JUST FEELING LIKE, I'M TOO TOUGH TO BE DISTURBED BY THIS, I CAN KEEP GOING.

YOU DON'T INTIMIDATE ME.

AND THAT ALLOWED ME TO KEEP GOING.

>> DO YOU HAVE THE BOOK THERE?

DO YOU WANT TO JUST READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, THE CHAPTER TITLE IS, "SHE'LL DO ANYTHING."

>> OKAY.

ON MY FIRST SHOOT, THE STYLIST SAYS TO HIS ASSISTANT, LET'S GO TO THE S&M VIBE.

I SAY NO, AND HE THINKS I'M UNGRATEFUL.

BY WAY OF EXPLANATION, I SAY, I WANT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT, I HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT THE KIND OF PICTURES I TAKE.

HE LOOKS ME IN THE EYE AND I LOOK BACK.

NORMALLY, ADULTS ARE PLEASED OR AMUSED WHEN I TELL THEM THIS, BUT HE ROLLS HIS EYES AND TAKES OFF THE BELT.

HE GIVES ME A TINY BLACK BIKINI.

GO, HE SAYS, AND TURNS HIS BACK.

I'VE NEVER WORN A BIKINI BEFORE.

I DIDN'T KNOW I WOULD BE WEARING ONE BUT I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PUBIC HAIR YET TO SHAVE.

HOW DO I STAND WHEN MY STOMACH IS SHOWING?

THE PHOTOGRAPHER KEEPS TELLING ME TO RELAX.

HE HAS A FART MACHINE PRANK HE PLAYS.

WHEN THE PHOTO COMES OUT, MY AGENT SENDS IT TO CLIENTS.

I CARRY IT AROUND TO CASTINGS TO GIVE OUT.

YOUR BODY LOOKS AMAZING, SHE SAYS.

>> SO, YOU'RE WHAT, 15?

>> I WAS 16.

>> AND THEN IT GOES ON, THE STYLIST WON'T WORK WITH ME AGAIN FOR ANOTHER SEVEN YEARS, WHEN HE FINALLY BOOKS ME AGAIN, HE JOKES, YOU WERE SUCH A SPOILED BRAT.

ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IS, WHEN YOU REFUSED, THERE WERE SEVERAL SITUATIONS THAT YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK THAT YOU SAID, I'M NOT DOING THAT, AND YOU SEE FIVE OTHER GIRLS LINED UP WAITING TO TAKE YOUR SPOT, THE MESSAGE IS SENT.

BUT WOULD YOU MIND, AND I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE IF IT OFFENDS, THAT -- WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE PUT UP WITH IT?

WHY DID YOU PUT UP WITH IT?

>> YEAH, I DON'T -- I ACTUALLY DON'T FIND THAT QUESTION OFFENSIVE.

I FIND IT AT THE HEART OF THE BOOK, IN SOME WAYS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK ABOUT ALL THOSE FAMILIAR DIRECTIVES THAT WE LOB AT GIRLS, LIKE, STOP BEING SO EMOTIONAL, YOU'RE OVERREACTING, CHILL OUT, AND WANTING ALWAYS TO BE ABLE TO TOUGH IT OUT.

TO PLAY, YOU KNOW, FIRST TO PLAY WITH THE BIG KIDS, TO PLAY WITH THE BOYS, AND TO BE A KID IN A GROWNUP WORLD, BE SUCCESSFUL, BE POWERFUL, HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE, AND THAT -- THAT FELT LIKE AND IN SOME WAYS I THINK IS WHAT IS REQUIRED, ACTUALLY.

AS I'M WRITING THE BOOK, I'M CONTINUING TO WORK, AND I'M IN MY 30s, I HAVE CHILDREN, I HAVE A HEAD FILLED WITH BOOKS, AND YET, I FIND MYSELF ON-SET WITH SOMEONE WHO IS TELLING ME THAT THEY ARE DIVORCED, THAT THEY NEED ME TO SHOOT NAKED, EVEN THOUGH IT'S IN MY CONTRACT THAT I DON'T, AND I AM BENDING TO THEM.

AND I PUT THAT IN THERE, REALLY, TO SAY, IT'S SO HARD TO MOVE AWAY FROM THIS, AS MUCH INFORMATION AS WE KNOW, THAT IS STILL HOW SO MUCH OF THE WORLD IS WORKING, YOU KNOW?

IF THAT IS HOW TO ACCESS WEALTH, IF THAT IS HOW TO ACCESS VISIBILITY, AND THE WAYS TO MOVE BEYOND IT THAT I SEE ARE TO SAY, I DON'T THINK THOSE THINGS ARE IMPORTANT, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHERE WE'RE GOING TO BUILD LIBERATION, AND THEN ALSO, IT'S NOT JUST ON ME.

I HAVE TO BUILD AS A COLLECTIVE.

THERE'S NOT, LIKE, A SOLUTION THAT I PROPOSE THAT THAT FIXES IT.

>> WOULD MORE WOMEN HELP?

WOULD IT HELP TO HAVE MORE WOMEN PHOTOGRAPHERS, STYLISTS, FASHION EDDER TOS?

>> YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT -- MAYBE.

I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE EQUITY BEHIND THE CAMERA AND IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA, THAT'S GREAT.

BUT THERE'S SOMETHING EVEN MORE INSIDIOUS HAPPENING, RIGHT?

WHICH IS THAT FROM TOP TO BOTTOM, THE INDUSTRY RELIES ON THE EXPLOITATION OF WOMEN'S LABOR.

TREATING WOMEN'S LABOR AS UNSKILLED.

YOU KNOW, POST-INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, IT STILL REQUIRES SKILLED HANDS TO SEW CLOTHING.

SO, THIS MASSIVE LABOR FORCE THAT WE TREAT AS UNSKILLED, WHO IS VERY SKILLED, WHO IS MOSTLY WOMEN, WHO ORGANIZE BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS, 50,000 WOMEN GO ON STRIKE IN BANGLADESH AND NOT ONE FASHION MEDIA OUTLET PICKS IT UP.

AND IT'S NOT FOR LACK OF A WOMAN EDITOR IN CHIEF.

IT'S SOMETHING ELS ABOUT THE STRUCTURE OF THE INDUSTRY.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK WE NEED, YOU KNOW, TO HAVE WOMEN'S FACES IN HIGH PLACES ALWAYS, IT'S SOMETHING DEEPER.

AND MORE STRUCTURAL THAT I THINK HAS TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> YOU'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR, BUT I AM STILL SORT OF STUCK ON THIS -- THIS, LIKE, WHY DO SO MANY OF THE PEOPLE BEHAVE SO BADLY?

WHY DO SO MANY OF THESE MEN BEHAVE SO BADLY?

WHY DO THESE 30, 40, 50-YEAR-OLD MEN WANT TO SLEEP WITH 15-YEAR-OLD GIRLS?

WHY DO YOU THINK THEY CAN DO THAT?

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT THAT?

>> PATRIARCHY, I GUESS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE FASHION INDUSTRY IS NOT UNIQUELY SEXIST OR RACIST OR EXPLOITIVE.

I THINK IT CAN BE, AS MANY, MANY INDUSTRIES CAN BE.

I THINK WHAT FEELS UNIQUE IN A WAY TO FASHION IS THAT FASHION SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE OF BEAUTY, OF GRACE, OF, YOU KNOW, SORT OF JOY AND EXUBERANCE AND EXPRESSION AND -- YET THAT EXPECTATION TO ARRIVE AND SPEAK IN THAT LANGUAGE BEGAN TO FEEL FOR ME SO AT ODDS WITH WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN MY HEART AND MY MIND.

AND IT'S INTERESTING TO PUBLISH THIS BOOK IN THIS MOMENT, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF US ARE GOING THROUGH.

WHEN WE COME TO WORK, WHEN WE INTERACT WITH INSTITUTIONS, WHEN WE GO TO THE POLLS AND WE THINK OUR GOVERNMENTS, OUR BUSINESSES, OUR SCHOOLS, ARE NOT PROTECTING US.

RIGHT?

ARE ACTUALLY NOT PUTTING PEOPLE FIRST.

AND SO, THERE IS THAT KIND OF PROFOUND STRUGGLE TO ARRIVE IN A WAY THAT IS AGREEABLE, YOU KNOW, THAT IS AGREEABLE TO OUR BOSS, THAT ALLOWS US TO EVEN ARRIVE AT A DINNER TABLE AGREEABLE, AND WHAT IS HAPPENING FOR US ON THE INSIDE.

AND I TRIED IN THIS BOOK, I THINK, TO JUST STOP PERFORMING SO MUCH, AND TRY TO FIND LANGUAGE FOR ALL THOSE COMPLICATED THINGS THAT I WAS FEELING, NOT JUST WHAT WAS EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

>> HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW?

THAT YOU FOUND YOUR WORDS?

>> I FEEL LIKE I GREW UP IN WRITING IT.

I GOT TO THE END, AND I WAS THINKING, WHERE DO I LAND WITH THIS?

AND THIS QUOTE FROM MYRIAM CABA KEPT PLAYING IN MY MIND WHERE SHE SAYS, IN REGARDS TO ABOLITION POLITICS, WE COULD STOP ASKING, HOW DO WE FIX WHAT IS, AND WE COULD START IMAGINING WHAT WE WANT IN THE WORLD.

AND SO, THAT UNDERSTANDING OF, WHERE DO WE GIVE OUR ATTENTION, HOW DO WE DREAM WHAT'S NEXT, THAT FELT LIKE AN OPEN INVITATION FOR A NEXT PHASE FOR ME.

>> WHAT ARE YOU IMAGINING, IF I MAY ASK?

IF IT'S NOT TOO PERSONAL OR NOT YET FULLY FORMED, WHAT ARE YOU IMAGINING?

>> WELL, I CAN ANSWER, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FASHION, I'LL GIVE AN ANSWER AROUND THE FASHION INDUSTRY.

YOU KNOW, IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE BOOK, I THINK THERE'S THIS IDEA THAT YOU PULL BACK THE CURTAIN AND WHAT YOU SEE IN FASHION IS EXTRACKIVE BUSINESS, IT'S GIRLS WHO COME OF AGE WHEN THEY'RE ASSAULTED, IS, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO CAN ARGUE THEY'RE EMPOWERED BY OBJECT IF I CASE, AND THAT'S SORT OF AN AGREED UPON STORY, IN A WAY, BUT THERE'S NO WAY TO MAKE MEANING IN THAT STORY.

THERE'S NO WAY TO REPAIR THAT STORY.

SO, IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE BOOK, WHAT I TRIED TO DO WAS THINK ABOUT, WHAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO TELL A STORY ABOUT THE FASHION INDUSTRY THAT ISN'T THAT?

THAT ISN'T INDUSTRY.

THAT ACTUALLY IS PEOPLE.

AND THE STORY THAT I COULD TELL, AND THEN HELP ME UNDERSTAND WHERE TO GO, WAS, YOU KNOW, FOR THE PAST COUPLE CENTURIES, ALTHOUGH THE FASHION INDUSTRY HAS BEEN SO EXTRACKIVE, WE'VE SEEN THE FIRST LABOR UNION IN THE UNITED STATES FOUNDED BY TEENAGE GARMENT WORKERS.

WE SAW WORKER PROTECTIONS WE ENJOY TODAY COME OUT OF LABOR ORGANIZING BEFORE AND AFTER THE TRIANGLE SHIRT WAIST FIRE IN NEW YORK.

AND I THINK IN MANY WAYS, OUR MOST PRECIOUS DECK CATTIC FREEDOMS COME FROM PEOPLE ON COTTON PLANTATIONS AND THEIR DESCENDANTS.

PEOPLE WORKING IN THAT HAVE TRANSFORMED OUR WORLD.

AND SO, THAT'S ANOTHER WAY TO TELL THIS HISTORY, AND THAT'S WHY, I THINK, ORGANIZING, IS PART OF WHAT I CONTINUE TO DO.

>> SO, YOU WRITE ABOUT GARMENT WORKERS IN PLACES LIKE BANGLADESH, WHO PRODUCE THE CLOTHES FOR THE COMPANIES THAT YOU MODEL FOR, AND MAKE SOME OF THE LOWEST WAGES IN THE WORLD, AND YOU WERE AT A PHOTO SHOOT ON A FORMER PLANTATION, YOU SAY, I SIT ON THE PORCH, WAITING FOR THE TEAM TO SET UP.

HOW DIFFERENT IS WHAT WE'RE DOING, CELEBRATING THIS PLACE, CELEBRATING MY WHITE FACE OVER AND OVER WHILE WOMEN OF COLOR MAKE, PACK, SHIP, AND SELL THE CLOTHES FOR NOTHING CLOSE TO A LIVEABLE WAGE.

COULD YOU JUST TALK MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, THAT WAS AN EXTREMELY DIFFICULT SHOOT.

IT TOOK PLACE ON A FORMER PLANTATION AND THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, IN THE COURSE OF THAT SHOOT, THERE WERE OFF-HAND COMMENTS ABOUT THINGS THAT MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE THERE.

AND I JUST FELT MY SKIN CRAWLING, REALLY, THROUGHOUT THAT SHOOT, TO BE PHOTOGRAPHED THERE AND TO CELEBRATE THAT PLACE.

AND, OF COURSE, ALSO, YOU KNOW, THAT STORY IS ALSO ABOUT HOW THE FASHION INDUSTRY CONTINUES TO RELY ON VERY EXTRACKIVE SYSTEMS TO MAKE PROFIT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I -- I HAVE A FOOTNOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DIVE DEEPER ABOUT, YOU KNOW, READING ABOUT RACIAL CAPITALISM, AND UNDERSTANDING ALL THE WAYS THAT OUR HISTORY HAS CREATED AN ECONOMIC MODEL THAT RELIES ON RACIAL AND GENDER OPPRESSION TO EXTRACT VALUE FROM PEOPLE.

AND CERTAINLY, THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE FASHION INDUSTRY AND BEYOND, AND IN THAT MOMENT, I FELT LIKE I WAS THE PRETTY FACE THAT WAS BEING PUT ON TO SELL THAT INHUMANITY.

>> IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS GOING TO ASK IS, DO YOU STILL LIKE IT?

DO YOU STILL LIKE FASHION?

>> YEAH, I THINK I HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING AND RELATIONSHIP NOW.

THAT I CAN SEPARATE OUT SOME OF THOSE INDUSTRY PARTS FROM THE OTHER PARTS THAT ARE MEANINGFUL TO ME.

AND ALSO, TO UNDERSTAND, YOU KNOW, WHEN 20 CONGLOMERATES OWN 90% OF PROFITS, MOST PEOPLE IN FASHION ARE GOING TO BE IN THEIR EMPLOY, SO IT WILL REQUIRE PEOPLE WHO ARE INSIDE A BROKEN SYSTEM, WHO ALSO ARE VERY SKILLED AT SPEAKING THE LANGUAGE OF FASHION, WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS GOOD FOR, WHAT IT IS NEEDED FOR, TO SPEAK AND BE CRITICAL OF WHERE THEY SIT.

AND USE BOTH, YOU KNOW, OUR UNDERSTANDING OF OUR OWN COMPLICITY, OUR OWN SHAME, AND OUR OWN SKILLS, TO MOVE FORWARD, AND THAT'S A HARD SPOT, BUT HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, FOR EVERYBODY WHO READS THE BOOK, THERE'S SOME UNIVERSALITY TO THAT CONUNDRUM, WHERE WE ARE TODAY, AND HOW WE MOVE FORWARD.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S POSSIBLE?

I MEAN, YOU SEE IT IN DIFFERENT MOVEMENTS, THE REUSE MOVEMENT, PEOPLE TRYING TO MOVE AWAY FROM FAST FASHION, YOU SEE THE 15% PLEDGE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MOVEMENT TO INSIST THAT FASHION BRANDS ENGAGE MORE WITH HISTORICALLY MARGINALIZED PEOPLE.

>> YES.

I THINK YOU'RE NAMING SO MANY OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE MARGINS RIGHT NOW THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT THE MARGINS, BECAUSE IT IS WHERE ALL THE INNOVATION IS HAPPENING.

SO, EVERYONE IS WATCHING.

YOU KNOW, EVERYONE KNOWS THE 15% PLEDGE.

PEOPLE KNOW THE ORR FOUNDATION THAT'S FIGURING OUT, WHAT DO WE DO WITH ALL OF THIS TEXTILE WASTE ENDING UP IN GHANA?

THE FIBER SHED MOVEMENT THAT STARTED IN CALIFORNIA, NOW THERE'S HUNDREDS OF THEM TRYING TO DO SOIL TO SOIL TEXTILE WITHIN A 25-MILE RADIUS.

AND I THINK DURING THE PANDEMIC WHAT WAS SO STRIKING TO ME IS, WHILE WE SAW THIS EXPLOSION OF E-COMMERCE, AT THE SAME MOMENT, WE SAW AN EXPLOSION OF MENDING AND MAKING, OF GEN-Z BECOMING KNITTERS AND SHARING ON TIKTOK ALL THE WAYS THEY WERE CRAFTING.

AND SO, THERE WAS A DIVERGENCE, EVEN MORE STRIKING THAN BEFORE, OF WHAT PEOPLE NEED AND WANT, AND WHAT THE FASHION INDUSTRY IS TRYING TO PROVIDE AND SELL.

AND I THINK THAT IS REACHING A SORT OF LOGICAL CONCLUSION NOW, BECAUSE IT'S -- IF YOU HAVE A NEW COLLECTION EVERY SEVEN DAYS, IT'S TOO MUCH TRASH.

AND EVEN FOR THE HUMANS PRODUCING IT, THERE IS NO PLEASURE IN PRODUCING SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO GO INTO THE GARBAGE.

AND SO, I -- I BELIEVE THIS HAS TO BE THE END OF THAT CYCLE OF DISPOSABILITY.

>> WELL, CAMERON RUSSELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> OH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.