Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> MY FATHER AND MY MOTHER I HAVE LOST.

>> MANY MOROCCO, A DEVASTATING HUMAN COST.

THE RACE TO FIND SURVIVORS, AND HARROWING STORIES OF LOSS.

WE HAVE THE LATEST FROM THERE.

AND WE SPEAK TO THOSE TRYING TO HELP.

>>> ARE THE PEOPLE GETTING THE AID THEY DESPERATELY NEED?

I PUT IT TO ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S SENIOR MINISTERS.

>>> THEN -- >> WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO STRENGTHEN ALLIANCES AROUND THE WORLD TO MAINTAIN STABILITY.

THAT'S WHAT THIS TRIP WAS ALL ABOUT.

>> AS THE PRESIDENT WRAPS UP TRIPS TO INDIA AND VIETNAM, WE LOOK AT THE STATE OF AMERICA'S GLOBAL ALLIANCES.

AND ITS ADVERSARIES.

>>> THEN -- >> THIS IS A STORY WHERE IT DOESN'T MATCH THE FACTS THAT WE HAVE CURRENTLY.

YOU KNOW, IT MAY HAVE MATCHED THE FACTS WE HAD AT THE TIME THE STORY WAS FIRST WRITTEN, BUT WE HAVE MORE FACTS NOW.

>> SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT.

HISTORIAN NAOISE MAC SWEENEY SAYS WHY THE STORY OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX THAN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT.

TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP.

RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER WORLD GOVERNMENTS ARE OFFERING HELP TO MOROCCO, AFTER A TRAGEDY OF UNFATHOMABLE PROPORTIONS.

IT IS THE WORST EARTHQUAKE TO HIS THAT COUNTRY IN OVER A CENTURY.

STRIKING CLOSE TO MARRAKESH, BUT THE EPICENTER AND THE WORST DESTRUCTION IS IN THE SURROUNDING ATLAS MOUNTAINS, ISOLATED AREAS WHICH ARE DIFFICULT TO ACCESS.

THOUSANDS ARE DEAD AND THOUSANDS MORE ARE INJURED, AS RESCUERS RACE AGAINST TIME TO FIND SURVIVORS BENEATH THE RUBBLE AND TO REEJ ISOLATED COMMUNITIES.

WHOLE VILLAGES HAVE BEEN CRUSHED.

HISTORICAL SITES DAMAGED.

AND MANY HAVE LOST EVERYTHING.

THE MILITARY HAS NOW REACHED THE WORST-HIT AREA, THE KING HAS DECLARED THREE DAYS OF MOURNING.

CORRESPONDENT SAM KILEY IS AT A FIELD HOSPITAL IN A HARD-HIT VISITAGE, AND HE HAS SENT THIS REPORT.

>> Reporter: HERE THE ROYAL MOROCCAN ARMED FORCES HAVE ESTABLISHED A FIELD HOSPITAL IN RESPONSE TO THIS EARTHQUAKE THAT HAS KILLED 2,500 PEOPLE.

SIMILAR NUMBER OF THEM HAVE BEEN BRAVELY INJURED.

2,500 PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY GRAVELY INJURED.

BUT THE PROBLEM IN THIS LOCATION, AT THE BOTTOM OF THE FOOTHILLS OF THE ATLAS MOUNTAINS, IS THAT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE COMING DOWN AFTER THOSE MOUNTAINS SEEKING URGENT MEDICAL ASSISTANCE, AND THIS IS A HIGHLY SOPHISTICATED HOSPITAL, THAT'S BEEN DEPLOYED AROUND THE WORLD TO THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF THE CONGO, TO JORDAN AND ELSEWHERE TO DEAL WITH EMERGENCIES INTERNATIONALLY, BUT HERE, THEY ARE DEALING WITH EMERGENCIES LOCALLY, OBVIOUSLY, BUT THEY'VE GOT RADIOLOGY, THEY'VE GOT LABORATORIES, THEY'VE GOT OPERATING THEATERS, THEY'VE GOT TENTS AND EVEN GOT PSYCHIATRIC HELP HERE.

AND ULTIMATELY, THOUGH, THE REAL PROBLEM IS FOR THE RESCUE SERVICES UP IN THOSE MOUNTAINS, WHERE THE NEEDS ARE GRAVEST, BECAUSE THE ROADS UP THERE HAVE BEEN CUT.

HELICOPTERS ARE BEING SNENT TO DELIVER AID, TO TRY TO PICK UP PATIENTS, TO TRY TO DO ASSESSMENTS, TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW WIDE THIS CATASTROPHIC PROBLEM REALLY EXTENDS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME AMAZING SUCCESSES, BECAUSE THIS IS STILL WITHIN THE GOLDEN HOURS OF THREE DAYS, WHEN PEOPLE BURIED UNDER THE GROUND HAVE A REASONABLE CHANCE OF SURVIVAL.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PULLED OUT IN ALMOST MIRACULOUS RECOVERIES AROUND THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY IN THESE VERY ISOLATED AREAS, AND THE DOCTORS HERE HAVE SAID THAT ONE OF THE REALLY STRIKING THINGS FOR THEM IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THE PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP, BECAUSE EVERYBODY RECOGNIZES HERE THAT EVEN AFTER THE END OF THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE TO THIS MASSIVE EARTHQUAKE, THE SHOCKWAVES, THE PSYCHOLOGICAL SHOCKWAVES ARE GOING TO BE FELT BY THIS COUNTRY FOR YEARS TO COME.

>> NOW, SEVERAL NATIONS HAVE SENT EXPERTS TO JOIN THOSE DESPERATE RELIEF EFFORTS, AND PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS LIKE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN ALSO RUSHED IN.

IT PIONEERS INNOVATIVE WAYS TO GET FOOD AND WATER TO THE NEEDY BACK WHEN HURRICANE MARIA DEVASTATED PUERTO RICO.

I SPOKE TO THE DIRECTOR OF EMERGENCY RESPONSE IN MOROCCO, SAM BLOCH, AS HE WAS ABOUT TO CHOPPER SUPPLIES HIGH UP INTO THE ATLAS MOUNTAINS.

SAM BLOCH, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOUR ORGANIZATION IS REALLY EXPERIENCED AT THIS, BUT JUST TELL ME WHAT EXACTLY YOU'RE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW, I SEE A CHOPPER BEHIND YOU.

>> SO, A LOT OF -- WHERE THE EPICENTER OF THE EARTHQUAKE WAS WAS HIGH UP IN THE MOUNTAINS.

A LOT OF SMALL COMMUNITIES KIND OF ETCHED INTO THE SIDE OF MOUNTAINS, A LOT OF THEM ARE CUT OFF.

A LOT OF LANDSLIDES, ACCESS IS JUST REALLY THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE.

WE'VE GOT A COUPLE OF THESE SMALLER HELICOPTERS FLYING THAT ARE ABLE TO LAND, WHERE NOBODY ELSE IS ABLE TO LAND.

LITTLE SIDE MOUNTAIN ROADS, THINGS LIKE THIS, AND BRINGING FOOD AND WATER IN, BUT THEN ALSO DOING MEDICAL EVACUATIONS AND EVACUATING PEOPLE OUT, SO, THEY ARE REALLY JUST RUNNING LAPS NONSTOP.

THAT'S BEEN ONE OF THE MOST CHALLENGING PARTS OF THIS WHOLE DISASTER IS JUST THE ACCESS AND THE REMOTENESS, THE HIGH ELEVATION.

WE'VE GOT QUITE A FEW TEAMS GOING VIA LAND, WHEREVER THEY CAN, WHEREVER LANDSLIDES HAVE NOT CLOSED ROADS.

>> SO, SAM, DOES THAT MEAN THERE IS NOT A GOOD INTERNAL TRANSPORT NETWORK?

IS IT DIFFICULT TO MAKE THESE DISTANCES?

AND YOU HAVE A HELICOPTER, ARE THERE PLANES THAT CAN GET TO ANY CENTRAL HIGHER GROUND?

>> NO, I MEAN, WHERE THE EPICENTER IS WAS REALLY HIGH UP IN THE MOUNTAINS, SO, THERE'S NO AIRPORTS IN THE REGION, SOME OF THE VILLAGES ARE OVER 5,000 FEET IN ELEVATION, SO, THE HELICOPTERS REALLY ARE ONLY THE WAY, AS WELL AS SOME OF OUR OFFROAD VEHICLES THAT ARE MAKING IT UP INTO THE MOUNTAINS.

>> AND HAVE YOU HAD EXPERIENCE WITH SUCH HIGH ELEVATION IN AN EARTHQUAKE SITUATION LIKE THIS?

>> I CAN'T SAY THAT I HAVE.

SOME OF THE PLACES WHERE WE WORKED IN TURKEY, WE WERE WORKING IN TURKEY AND SYRIA AFTER THE LARGE EARTHQUAKE THERE, SOME OF THE COMMUNITIES WERE HIGH ELEVATION ABOVE THE SNOW LINE.

SO, YEAH, WE DO HAVE EXPERIENCE >> AND HOW DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO COMPARE TO TURKEY AND SYRIA?

I GUESS I ASK YOU, BECAUSE -- AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THIS IS THE CASE, BUT THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE THE EPICENTER SEEMS TO BE, IT'S LESS BUILT UP, LESS DENSELY POPULATED, MAYBE THERE MIGHT BE LESS DAMAGE THAN IN A HIGHLY, YOU KNOW, SKYSCRAPERS AND RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS AND ALL THAT CONCRETE, I DON'T KNOW.

>> YOU ARE CORRECT.

IT'S IN A MORE RURAL REGION THAN LET'S SAY THE TURKEY EARTHQUAKE WAS, OR PORT-au-PRINCE, WHERE WE'VE ALSO WORKED.

IT'S MORE RURAL.

BUT EARTHQUAKES HERE ARE VERY RARE.

VERY, VERY RARE.

I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE LARGEST EARTHQUAKES TO HIT THIS PART OF THE WORLD IN QUITE SOME TIME.

SO, A LOT OF THE ARCHITECTURE WAS REALLY NOT DESIGNED FOR THIS TYPE OF SEISMIC EVENT.

>> CAN YOU SEE ANY OTHER GOVERNMENT INFRASTRUCTURE, IN TERMS OF RELIEF, WORKING RIGHT NOW?

OR ARE YOU AND OTHER NGOs IT?

>> NO, THE GOVERNMENT -- THE GOVERNMENT IS.

THEIR HELICOPTERS ARE FLYING, AS WELL.

IT'S STILL VERY EARLY DAYS, THE NEED IS VERY SPREAD OUT.

SO, WE ARE SEEING THE GOVERNMENT.

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY OTHER INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS BESIDES WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN.

NOT SAYING THEY'RE NOT HERE, JUST HAVEN'T SEEN THEM.

BUT IT'S REALLY THE COMMUNITY TAKING CARE OF ITSELF AND THE GOVERNMENT AND WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN.

>> WE'RE HEARING CERTAINLY FROM THE REPORTS THAT I'VE READ THAT PEOPLE UP THERE HAVE TO PRETTY MUCH USE THEIR OWN HANDS TO SCRABBLE AND GET THEIR LOVED ONE ONES OUT OF THE RUBBLE AND TRY TO DO THE BEST THEY CAN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE GREATEST NEED THAT SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF CAN PROVIDE?

IT IS THE FOOD AND WATER, FIRST AID?

>> FOOD AND WATER, ABSOLUTELY.

WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT NEEDING A LOT OF TARPS.

>> IT IS GETTING CHILLY UP IN THE MOUNTAINS.

I WAS JUST OUT IN SOME VERY, VERY RURAL VILLAGES AND THEY WERE SAYING HOW COLD THEY ARE AT NIGHT.

FOOD, WATER, ALWAYS A PRIORITY.

WE'VE ALSO BEEN TAKING MEDICAL EVACUATIONS OUT WITH THE HELICOPTER, AS WELL AS BRINGING MEDICAL TEAMS IN, SO -- YOU KNOW, THE MEDICAL NEEDS ARE GETTING MET, AS WELL.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST -- IT'S SO MANY SMALL POCKETS, AND VERY RURAL AREAS, THAT OUR TEAMS ARE DOING A REALLY GREAT JOB OF REALLY GETTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

>> AND WHERE ARE YOU NOW, AND WHAT IS YOUR NEXT STOP?

>> I AM JUST AT THE FOOTHILL OF THE MOUNTAINS HERE, AND THE NEXT STOP, WE'VE GOT ABOUT SIX DIFFERENT LOCATIONS TODAY, GOING TO TALK WITH THE PILOT BEFORE WE DECIDE WHICH ONE OF THE COMMUNITIES WE SHOULD RESTOCK FIRST.

AGAIN, THESE ARE ALL COMMUNITIES WITH THE HELICOPTER THAT DO NOT HAVE LAND ACCESS.

>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, I AM GOING TO LET YOU GO.

JUST WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN THAT CHOPPER, BEFORE I LET YOU GO?

>> FOOD.

READY TO EAT MEALS, SANDWICHES, WORKING WITH A LOT OF GREAT LOCAL MOROCCAN RESTAURANTS, AS WELL AS TEAMS MAKING SANDWICHES THAT PEOPLE CAN EAT STRAIGHTAWAY.

AND THIS IS TYPICALLY WHAT WE DO IN THE BEGINNING, VERY VERSATILE, READY TO GRAB AND EAT ON THE RUN, SO, THAT'S WHAT'S GETTING LOADED INTO THIS HELICOPTER, AS WELL AS WATER.

>> GOOD LUCK TO YOU.

>> EXCELLENT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> SAM BLOCH OF THE WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN.

NOW, MANY SURVIVORS, AS I SAID, HAVE CRITICIZED THEIR GOVERNMENT FOR BEING TOO SLOW, THEY SAY, IN SENDING HELP.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE COUNTRY'S DIRECTOR OF THE INTERIOR MINISTRY, KHALID ZEROUALI, FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, AT LEAST WITH THE WESTERN PRESS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN YOU TELL US RIGHT NOW HOW MUCH THE GOVERNMENT IS DOING, WHAT SORT OF FORCES YOU'VE DEPLOYED, WHO IS TAKING THE LEAD IN THESE REMOTE RESCUE OPERATIONS?

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HOSTING THIS ENCOUNTER.

LET ME JUST REMIND YOU THAT FROM THE FIRST MOMENT AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, HIS MAJESTY, THE KING, PRESIDED OVER A WORK SESSION DURING WHICH HE ASKED ALL THE COMPONENTS OF THE STATE TO WORK SWIFTLY FOR AN ACTION SO THAT WE CAN SAVE LIVES, TAKE CARE OF THE INJURED, AND FIND SHELTERS TO THOSE WHO ARE IN NEED.

THE COORDINATION TODAY IS DONE WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT, OF COURSE, THERE'S THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR, BUT ALL THE OTHER GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES, IN ADDITION TO THE ARMED FORCES.

THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH IS ALSO DOING A LOT OF -- A LOT OF WORK SO THAT WE CAN TAKE CARE OF -- OF THE INJURES AND THOSE WHO ARE IN NEED OF HEALTH ASSISTANCE.

>> MR. ZEROUALI, WE'VE HEARD THIS IS THE FIRST SUCH EARTHQUAKE IN YOUR REGION IN PERHAPS MORE THAN A CENTURY.

HOW DIFFICULT IS THE CHALLENGE?

WE SAW FROM CORRESPONDENT SAM KILEY THAT THE ARMY HAS BUILT AT LEAST THAT TENT HOSPITAL LOCATION, WITH ALL THE, YOU REQUIREMENTS.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT, THOUGH, TO REACH THE EPICENTER, WHICH IS IN THE MOUNTAINS?

>> IT IS AN EXCEPTIONAL SITUATION.

IT'S A DEVASTATING EARTHQUAKE, IT'S FOR SURE, AND THE CHALLENGES TODAY ARE LINKED TO THE NATURE OF THE TOPOGRAPHY OF THE TERRAIN.

IT'S MOUNTAINOUS.

IT MAKES IT CHALLENGING.

THE COORDINATION THAT WE HAVE AMONG ALL COMPONENTS OF THE GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO WITH OTHER PARTIES, NGOs ALSO, IT MAKES IT A LOT EASY TO REACH OUT TO THE POPULATION.

IT'S NOT -- IT'S A COMPLEX OPERATION.

THE NATIONAL STRATEGY MANAGEMENT OF CRISIS IN MOROCCO IS COHERENT WITH THE BEST PRACTICES AT THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

WE STARTED WITH THE ASSESSMENT, THE MITIGATION, SO THAT WE CAN MITIGATE THE IMPACT OF THE EARTHQUAKE ON THE POPULATION.

WE ARE NOW IN THE PROCESS OF INTERVENTION.

A LOT OF OPERATIONS, AIR SUPPORT, BECAUSE THE ROADS HAVE BEEN DISRUPTIVE, ABOUT 100 AIR SUPPORT OPERATIONS TO EVACUATE THOSE WHO ARE INJURED, TO BRING FOOD TO THE POPULATION THAT WERE ISOLATED.

JUST TO REMIND YOU ALSO THAT THE WORK THAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING SO FAR AIMS TO GO TOWARDS THE RECOVERY, TO LEAVE THE CRISIS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

THE COORDINATION IS A BIG COMPONENT, I JUST WANT TO REMIND YOU WHAT HAS BEEN DONE DURING THE WORK SESSION PRESIDED BY HIS MAJESTY, IS THAT THE COORDINATION IS KEY ELEMENT FOR SUCCESS IN CRISIS MANAGEMENT.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, DIRECTOR, DO YOU HAVE NUMBERS RIGHT NOW?

WE'VE REPORTED THE LATEST, YOU KNOW, IN THE 2,000s, NEARLY 2,500 DEAD, AND, OF COURSE, EVERYBODY IS VERY, VERY SORRY THAT YOUR NATION HAS EXPERIENCED THIS TRAGEDY AND LOSS OF LIFE, AND PERHAPS THE SAME NUMBER OF INJURED.

CAN YOU GIVE US ANY UPDATED FIGURES?

DO YOU EXPECT IT TO GO EVEN HIGHER?

>> AS OF TODAY, WE ARE AT 2,681 DEATH AND 2,530 INJURED.

TODAY, WE SAW LESS DEATH, WE STILL HAVE WORKING TO MAKE SURE THAT NOBODY IS UNDER -- STILL UNDER THE -- THE DEBRIS.

WE ARE GOING TOWARDS MAYBE STABILIZATION AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, BUT THE FIGURES I GIVE YOU ARE THE ONES UP TO DATE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT THE COUNTRY'S DOING, THE INTERAGENCIES WHAT THE KING HAS ORDERED IN TERMS OF RELIEF, BUT I WONDER WHETHER YOU ARE USED TO HEARING COMPLAINTS FROM ACTUAL, YOU KNOW, INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE CAUGHT UP IN IT.

AS YOU HAVE PROBABLY SEEN, THERE ARE SOME ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND THERE'S ONE WHO I'M GOING TO PLAY FOR YOU RIGHT NOW, TALKING TO ONE OF OUR CORRESPONDENTS.

LET'S JUST PLAY THIS.

>> THEY HAVE NO PLAN, ONLY THEY HAVE WORDS.

IT'S A BALLOON OF WORDS.

ONLY THAT THEY HAVE WORDS.

THAT'S ALL.

>> SO, THIS MAN, WE'RE TOLD, LOST BOTH HIS PARENTS, AS HE EXPLAINED TO OUR CORRESPONDENT SAM KILEY, AND, YOU KNOW, DOES HE HAVE A POINT, THAT IT'S BEEN MORE THAN A CENTURY, THERE WEREN'T THE RIGHT PLANS, AS HE SAID, AND IT'S SO REMOTE THAT IT'S ALL GOING TOO SLOWLY.

>> AS I SAID, WE HAVE A NATIONAL STRATEGY FOR CRISIS MANAGEMENT.

WE START WITH ASSESSMENT, WHICH IS VERY CRUCIAL FOR THE SITUATION.

ASSESSMENT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT, MAYBE, PHASE IN THE CRISIS MANAGEMENT.

WE -- THEN WE MOVE TO MITIGATION, SO THAT WE CAN SAVE LIVES AND TAKE CARE OF THE INJURED AND GIVE SHELTER TO FAMILIES AND THOSE WHO ARE IN NEED.

THEN WE GO FOR RECOVERY.

SO, WE HAVE A STRATEGY THAT IS COHERENT WITH INTERNATIONAL BEST PRACTICES.

I UNDERSTAND THAT SOMETIMES THE FIRST MOMENTS ARE VERY FRUSTRATING FOR THE POPULATION.

IT IS -- IT'S NORMAL.

THE FIRST MOMENT OF A CRISIS ARE VERY CRUCIAL, AND THAT'S WHY WE TRY TO HAVE THE OPTIMAL LEVEL OF ASSESSMENT SO THAT WE CAN MOVE TOWARDS GOOD RESULTS.

I DON'T THINK WE ARE WORKING BLINDLY, YOU CAN SEE ON THE RESULTS UP THERE.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT, IT'S NOT AN EASY -- IT'S NOT AN EASY EXERCISE, BUT WE HAVE A HISTORY, IN TERMS OF CRISIS MANAGEMENT, WE HAVE A DOCTRINE, WHICH IS, TODAY, HAVE BEEN PROVEN THAT IT'S A GOOD ONE.

OF COURSE, IT'S NOT EASY, IT'S COMPLEX, BUT WE ARE GOING SAFELY, SURELY, TOWARDS THE RECOVERY PHASE.

>> DIRECTOR ZEROUALI, AS YOU KNOW, WHEN THERE'S A MASSIVE NATIONAL CRISIS, TRAGEDY, YOU KNOW, DISASTER LIKE THIS, THE PRESIDENT OR THE HEAD OF STATE GOVERNMENT GOES AND VISITS.

I KNOW YOU SAID THE KING HAS HAD AN INTERGOVERNMENTAL MEETING WITH YOU ALL AND HE STARTED LIKE THAT, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE HE'S MADE A NATIONAL ADDRESS, UNLESS YOU CORRECT ME.

AND I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER HE HAS PLANS TO GO TO VISIT THE PEOPLE IN THE WORST AFFECTED AREAS.

>> THE CULTURE HIS MAJESTY FROM THE FIRST MOMENTS TOOK A WORKING SESSION, BECAUSE THE MOST IMPORTANT NOW IS WORK, NOT WORDS.

AND HIS MAJESTY INSTRUCTED US TO WORK CLOSELY TO HAVE AN OPTIMAL LEVEL OF CORD NATION AND MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE -- WE TAKE ACTIONS SWIFTLY TO SAVE LIVES AND TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN NEED.

IT'S TIME OF ACTION, NOT WORDS, AND WE ARE WORKING UNDER THE INSTRUCTIONS AND THE GUIDANCE OF HIS MAJESTY.

HE'S BEEN -- HE'S BEEN WORKING CLOSELY, AND HE'S BEEN FOLLOWING MINUTE BY MINUTE WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE FIELD.

>> YES.

I UNDERSTAND THAT, I JUST WONDERED IF HE HAD PLANS TO VISIT THE DEEPLY AFFECTED AREAS AND THE PEOPLE, MAYBE YOU CAN ANSWER ME THAT IN THE NEXT QUESTION, BECAUSE ARE THERE COUNTRIES -- CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT COUNTRIES YOU'VE ACCEPTED HELP FROM?

AND CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION THAT'S BEING REPORTED THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT ASKING FRANCE, BECAUSE OF POLITICAL DIFFERENCES, AND THE LIKE?

IS THAT -- IS THERE ANY TRUTH TO THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE -- HIS MAJESTY DURING THE WORK SESSION VALUED HIGHLY AND APPRECIATES THE SOLIDARITY OF FRIENDLY AND BROTHERLY COUNTRIES.

BUT AS I TOLD YOU, COORDINATION IS KEY ELEMENT IN THE CRISIS MANAGEMENT.

IF IT'S DONE PROPERLY, WE WILL SUCCEED.

IT CAN BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, IT CAN EVEN BE FATAL, IF IT'S NOT MASTERED AND GRASPED.

HIS MAJESTY VALUES THE ACTION OF FRIENDLY COUNTRIES, BUT WE ARE WORKING TODAY WITH -- WE HAVE TEAMS FROM SPAIN, QATAR, ARAB EMIRATES, AND UK, THEY ARE ALREADY WORKING ON THE FIELDS.

AND IF WE NEED ANOTHER ASSISTANCE, WE WILL REQUEST IT.

HIS MAJESTY STATED DURING THE WORK SESSION, WE -- AS I TOLD YOU, WE ARE NOT WORKING IN A BLIND WAY.

WE HAVE A STRATEGY.

WE HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH THE STRATEGY FOR MANY YEARS, SINCE 2004.

WE HAVE A METHOD.

WE HAVE SOMETHING SCIENTIFIC WORKING.

>> OKAY.

>> WE WILL NOT JEOPARDIZE THIS STRATEGY JUST TO BE -- TO BE KIND TO ANYONE.

>> OKAY.

>> FOR THE -- FOR THE OTHER QUESTION, I DON'T THINK -- I'M CRISIS MANAGER, I'M NOT -- MAYBE IT'S A QUESTION TO BE ASKED IN ANOTHER SPHERE, BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU, THAT IF THERE IS A NEED, WE WILL TAKE ASSISTANCE FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY, INCLUDING FRANCE.

>> JUST FINALLY, THEN, WITH -- WE FOCUSED ON THE HIGH ATLAS MOUNTAINS, THE EPICENTER, AND YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS REACHED, NOW, WE UNDERSTAND THE -- THE MILITARY HAS REACHED THE KEY TOWN IN THE EPICENTER, BUT CAN YOU TELL ME, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD KNOW MOROCCO, SO MANY PEOPLE GO FOR VACATIONS THERE, MARRAKESH IS VERY, VERY POPULAR, OBVIOUSLY.

HAS MARRAKESH AND OTHER URBAN AREAS BEEN DEVASTATED?

THEY'VE BEEN HIT AND DAMAGED, BUT HOW BAD IS IT?

>> THE EPICENTER IS WHERE I AM, I'M ACTUALLY -- I'VE BEEN HERE SINCE THE FIRST MOMENTS OF THE EARTHQUAKE.

MARRAKESH IS ABOUT 15 MILES NORTH OF THIS SITE.

IT HAS BEEN ALSO HIT, BUT NOT AS HARD AS HERE, SO I'M SURE THAT LIFE, RECOVERY, WILL BE RICH IN MARRAKESH, IN THE STATE OF MARRAKESH, AND I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE A JEOPARDY TO TOURISM.

WE ARE HOPEFUL THAT MARRAKESH REGAIN ITS -- ITS TOURISM REPUTATION AND BRING MORE TOURISTS.

>> DIRECTOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US FROM THE INTERIOR MINISTRY.

THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHO, AS I SAID, HAS OFFERED HELP, HE RETURNS HOME TODAY AFTER A BUSY DIPLOMATIC TRIP.

HE LANDED BACK IN ALASKA TO JOIN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IN TRIBUTES TO THE VICTIMS OF 9/11, 22 YEARS AGO.

HE WAS ON HIS WAY BACK FROM SOUTH ASIA, WHERE HE WAS FOCUSED ON SHORING UP ALLIANCES AND BUILDING UP DETERRENCE TO CHINA.

AFTER ATTENDING THE G-20 IN INDIA OVER THE WEEKEND, HE THEN WENT ONTO VIETNAM AND SENT A CLEAR PERSONAL MESSAGE TO THE CHINESE PRESIDENT, XI JINPING.

>> WE'RE NOT LOOKING TO HURT CHINA.

SINCERELY.

WE'RE ALL BETTER OFF IF CHINA DOES WELL.

CHINA DOES WELL BY THE INTERNATIONAL RULES.

>> BOTH CHINA AND RUSSIA WERE NO-SHOWS AT THE G-20, SO, IS A NEW WORLD ORDER EMERGING?

LET'S ASK EVELYN FARKAS, SHE'S THE FORMER PENTAGON LEAD ON RUSSIA AND UKRAINE.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM, EVELYN FARKAS.

IT SEEMS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN KIND OF GOT THE JOB DONE WHEN HE WAS IN INDIA AND IN VIETNAM.

A LOT OF PLEDGES, A LOT OF VISUALS OF SHORING UP THAT ALLIANCE.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON AGAIN.

I THINK THAT'S HE MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS, JUST IN THIS SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME THAT HE'S BEEN PRESIDENT, IN TERMS OF SHORING UP THE ASIA PACIFIC COMPONENT OF U.S. ALLIANCES.

AND I THINK HE'S EVOLVED SOMEWHAT FROM THE IDEA THAT THESE COUNTRIES HAVE TO BE OUT AND OUT DEMOCRACIES, AS LONG AS THEY'RE WILLING TO RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS AND ENGAGE WITH THE UNITED STATES ON IMPROVING HUMAN RIGHTS WITHIN THEIR COUNTRIES, THEY CAN BECOME OUR ALLY.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, OF COURSE, IS STANDING UP TO CHINA AND RUSSIA.

>> SO, LET ME ASK YOU QUICKLY, THEN, ABOUT THE SORT OF NEWS IMAGE OF THE DAY, AND THAT IS THE REPORTS THAT WE HEAR OF THE NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR KIM JONG-UN PLANNING TO VISIT PRESIDENT PUTIN IN VLADIVOSTOK, WHICH IS THE SITE OF REGULAR MEETINGS BETWEEN THE RUSSIAN LEADER AND OTHERS IN THE REGION.

WHAT DO YOU ACTUALLY MAKE OF THAT?

HOW MUCH OF A THREAT IS THAT, IN TERMS OF ALLIANCES AND ADVERSARIES TO THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES?

>> RIGHT, WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT VLADIVOSTOK IS REALLY IN THE ASIAN PART OF RUSSIA, JUST AN HOUR OR TWO FLIGHT AWAY FROM TOKYO, FROM SEOUL, ALTHOUGH YOU HAVE TO GO AROUND NORTH KOREA TO GET TO SEOUL.

I THINK THIS IS INTERESTING, AND REALLY JUST MAKES VLADIMIR PUTIN I MEAN, IF HIS STRONGEST PARTNER THAT HE WANTS TO TOUT ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE IS KIM JONG-UN, THEN HE'S REALLY IN A ROUGH PLACE.

THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT RELIED ON RUSSIA FOR BASIC FOOD AID, PROBABLY TO SOME EXTENT STILL DOES, AND THEY WERE NEVER KNOWN FOR EXCELLENCE IN WEAPONRY, OF COURSE, THEY'VE CAUGHT UP A LOT, BECAUSE OF RUSSIAN HELP, BECAUSE OF PROBABLY CHINESE HELP, BUT THE FACT THAT THEY'RE GOING HAT IN HAND, THAT RUSSIA IS, TO PYONGYANG FOR SMALL ARMS AND THE -- AND THE EQUIPMENT THAT THEY'RE GIVING THEM, AGAIN, IS NOT VERY SOPHISTICATED, BUT THE RUSSIANS IN EXCHANGE, AT LEAST WHAT WE KNOW FROM THE MEDIA, FROM MEDIA ACCOUNTS, IS THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE OFFERING SOME TECHNOLOGICAL ASSISTANCE TO NORTH KOREA, WHICH COULD BE SERIOUS IN TERMS OF BREAKING SANCTIONS, BECAUSE THERE ARE U.N. SANCTIONS ON NORTH KOREA AND ARMS TRADE WITH NORTH KOREA, BUT ALSO, IN TERMS OF WHAT RUSSIA'S GIVING UP TO THE NORTH KOREANS, WHICH ALSO MAKES THEM, AGAIN, LOOK WEAK.

>> SO, THAT MESSAGE WAS AMPLIFIED TO US BY AMBASSADOR RAHM EMANUEL, THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR IN JAPAN, AND YOU'VE PRETTY MUCH SAID WHAT HE SAID, THAT IT DOES, YOU KNOW, BEG THE QUESTION OF HOW STRONG PUTIN IS, IF NORTH KOREA IS THE MAIN ARMS SUPPLIER RIGHT NOW.

BUT ARE -- SO, YOU SAID THE WEAPONS WOULD NOT BE THE MOST SOPHISTICATED AND SOME ARE SAYING, THEY HAVE A MAJOR SURPLUS OF AMMUNITION, BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T ACTUALLY FOUGHT A WAR, THE NORTH KOREANS, SINCE THE 1950s, BUT DO YOU THINK IT WOULD HAVE, GIVEN YOUR PENTAGON BACKGROUND, A CONSIDERABLE GAME-CHANGING AFFECT IN THE UKRAINE WAR, RUSSIA WAR AGAINST UKRAINE?

>> I DON'T THINK SO, CHRISTIANE.

I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN I WENT TO NORTH KOREA, I WENT TO THE NUCLEAR FACILITY, SO, I DIDN'T LOOK AT THEIR ARMAMENTS, EXCEPT FOR IN THE MUSEUM, BUT THEY ARE NOT KNOWN FOR HAVING CUTTING EDGE, CONVENTIONAL WEAPONRY, AND AS YOU SAID, THEY HAVEN'T UTILIZED THEM, THEY RELY MAKE THESE WEAPONS.

COUNTRIES WHO USED TO BUY FROM NORTH KOREA INCLUDED EGYPT AND OTHERS.

SO, I DON'T THINK THAT RUSSIA'S GETTING MUCH.

IT JUST SHOWS YOU THAT THEY ARE LACKING IN PEOPLE WHO WILL SELL THEM THE BASIC ITEMS, BECAUSE ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD ARE WORRIED ABOUT SANCTIONS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF IRAN, OF COURSE.

BUT THESE ARE ROGUE COUNTRIES THAT ARE ALREADY UNDER SANCTIONS, SO, THEY HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BY DOING TRADE WITH RUSSIA.

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY DOES, INCLUDING CHINA, DOES HAVE SOMETHING TO LOSE.

>> SO, BEFORE I MOVE ONTO CHINA, I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER YOUR ASSESSMENT IS WHAT WE SORT OF GATHERED FROM THE ADMINISTRATION WRIT LARGE AND MAYBE OTHER NATO ALLIES, THAT CHINA IS THE BIGGER THREAT RIGHT NOW, NOT RUSSIA, TO THE INTERNATIONAL WORLD ORDER, NOT WITHSTANDING THE WAR RUSSIA IS WAGING AGAINST UKRAINE.

>> YEAH.

>> DO YOU AGREE?

>> I -- I DON'T AGREE 100% WITH THE WAY YOU PHRASED IT, BECAUSE I THINK THE IMMEDIATE DANGER TO THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER, TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, TO THE SYSTEM WE HAVE IN PLACE IS, INDEED, RUSSIA.

VLADIMIR PUTIN IS USING HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS TO TRY TO DESTROY THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER, BREAK THE RULES AND, OF COURSE, WIPE UKRAINE OFF THE FACE OF THE MAP.

IF THIS ACTUALLY -- IF HE GETS HIS WAY, THEN CHINA WILL BE AN EVEN BIGGER THREAT TO US.

SO, I BELIEVE THAT RUSSIA IS THE IMMEDIATE URGENT, YOU KNOW, FIRST ORDER THREAT.

AFTER WE DEAL WITH RUSSIA, THEN IT'S CHINA, AND, OF COURSE, SIMULTANEOUSLY, WE ARE STILL DEALING WITH CHINA AS A THREAT.

BUT IT'S NOT AS URGENT AS RUSSIA IS TODAY.

>> I'M GOING TO DIG DOWN ON RUSSIA IN A MOMENT, BUT THEN, LET'S TALK ABOUT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S TRIP.

FIRST, IT WAS THE G-20, THEN HE WENT ON TO HANOI TO MEET WITH THE PRESIDENT OF VIETNAM, AND TO KEEP SHORING UP THAT SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, THE PACIFIC ALLIANCE.

HE GOT -- THERE WAS SOME VERY GOOD STATEMENTS THAT WE MADE BY BOTH PRESIDENTS OUT OF THAT TRIP IN VIETNAM.

DO YOU FEEL THAT THE DETERRENT ASPECT OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS IS WORKING?

>> YES.

AND THIS WAS A KEY COMPONENT OF IT, BECAUSE VIETNAM IS A CRITICAL COUNTRY, IT'S A LARGE COUNTRY, WITH A DEVELOPED MILITARY, WITH A GREAT BASE THAT WE HAVE ALSO BEEN INTERESTED IN DEVELOPING WITH THE VIETNAMESE TO USE FOR MILITARY AND TRADE PURPOSES.

OF COURSE, THE CHINESE AND RUSSIANS HAVE HAD THEIR EYES ON IT.

THE VIETNAMESE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A COUNTRY THAT WAS PROUD AND SOUGHT TO BALANCE BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA.

SO, THEY HAVE ADDED THE UNITED STATES TO THE EQUATION.

I THINK PROBABLY RECOGNIZING, OF COURSE, THAT RUSSIA CAN'T STAND UP AND WON'T STAND UP TO CHINA ANYMORE, AND SO, THEY NEED ANOTHER POWER, AND THE UNITED STATES OFFERS TRADE BENEFITS, AND A WHOLE HOST OF THINGS THAT CAN HELP DETER CHINA.

ULTIMATELY, I THINK INDIA WILL WEAN ITSELF OFF OF THE RUSSIAN HISTORICALLY PURCHASED TO BUY MORE SOPHISTICATED AMERICAN WEAPONS, AND SO, AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT STEP IN TERMS OF SOLIDIFYING DETERRENCE TOWARDS CHINA.

REMEMBER, THE REASON WE WANT DETERRENCE IS TO DISCOURAGE CHINA FROM DOING ANYTHING LIKE WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING IN UKRAINE.

NO MILITARY ADVENTURISM, WE DON'T WANT ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, WORLD WAR OR ANOTHER REGIONAL WAR.

>> AND WE DON'T WANT ANOTHER WAR NECESSARILY, YOU SAID WORLD WAR, BUT A WAR OF, LET'S SAY, NATO AND THE UNITED STATES AGAINST CHINA OVER TAIWAN.

I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK THAT PARTICULARLY DURING THIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN THERE IS A SORT OF A PRESSURE ON THE PRESIDENT, ON THE ADMINISTRATION, AS, YOU KNOW, GOVERNOR HALEY SAYS ALL THE TIME AND OTHER REPUBLICANS, GET TOUGH ON CHINA, YOU KNOW, STIFFEN YOUR SPINE, ET CETERA, BUT THE PRESIDENT WAS VERY CLEAR, SAYING, WE'RE NOT TRYING TO CONTAIN CHINA, WE JUST WANT CHINA TO, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY PLAY BY THE INTERNATIONAL RULES, AND EVERYBODY GETS ON MUCH BETTER WHEN THAT HAPPENS.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT POLITICALLY?

>> YEAH, I THINK SOMETHING LIKE THIS TRIP, CHRISTIANE, DOES HELP THE PRESIDENT CHANGE THE NARRATIVE, AND HAVE A NARRATIVE THAT CAN GO HEAD-TO-HEAD WITH WHAT'S BEEN THE DOMINANT DISCUSSION IN WASHINGTON TO INCLUDE OUT OF HIS ADMINISTRATION UNTIL MORE RECENTLY, WHICH WAS, BE TOUGH ON CHINA, YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE BALLOONS, THE SPY BALLOONS WERE OVER THE UNITED STATES TERRITORY, THE ADMINISTRATION WAS TALKING JUST AS TOUGH AS CONGRESS WAS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

NOW, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS REFINED ITS TALKING POINTS, I DON'T THINK THEIR POLICY SHIFTED THAT MUCH, BUT POLITICALLY, AS YOU SAID, THEY'VE SHIFTED THEIR TALKING POINTS, SO THEY HAVE A MUCH MORE NUANCED APPROACH, AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO -- DON'T BACK CHINA INTO A CORNER, JUST DETER THEM QUIETLY, DO THE TRADE YOU NEED TO DO TO KEEP THE AMERICAN COMPANY STRONG.

DON'T COLLAPSE THE GLOBAL SYSTEM, BUT DETER CHINA FROM TAKING ANY MILITARY ADVANTAGE OF THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES.

>> AND HE DID SAY, THE PRESIDENT THIS WEEKEND, JUST IN CASE, YOU KNOW, CHINA DIDN'T GET IT, THE UNITED STATES IS A PACIFIC NATION AND WE'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE, SO, STICKING HIS OWN U.S.

FLAG IN THE -- IN THE SAND, SO TO SPEAK, AS WELL.

SO, NOW LET'S MOVE ONTO INDIA, THEN, THE G-20 SUMMIT, WHERE CHINA DIDN'T TURN UP, BUT THE PREMIER, I BELIEVE, DID.

RUSSIA DID NOT TURN UP.

HOW DO YOU READ THE SUMMIT COMMUNIQUE AT FIRST, BECAUSE OF CHINA, THEY WEREN'T MAYBE -- AND RUSSIA OBJECTIONS, THEY MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE A JOINT COMMUNIQUE FOR THE FIRST TIME, THEN THEY FINALLY DID HAVE ONE, CERTAINLY ABOUT THE UKRAINE WAR, SO, THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A HALF VICTORY, ALTHOUGH UKRAINE WAS NOT THRILLED WITH THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT WENT.

>> I THINK, UNFORTUNATE WLI, THIS JUST MAKES ALL OF THE COUNTRIES THAT DIDN'T TAKE A STAND WITH THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES LOOK COMPROMISED, AND I THINK IN THE HISTORY BOOKS, THEY WILL NOT LOOK GOOD ONCE RUSSIA IS DEFEATED, AND PEOPLE FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT RUSSIA DID TO THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, AND WHAT THEY DID BEFORE THAT TO THE SYRIAN PEOPLE AND THE CHECHEN PEOPLE INSIDE THE RUSSIAN REPUBLIC.

I DON'T THINK HISTORY IS ON THEIR SIDE.

ESSENTIALLY, THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN AND PRESIDENT XI DID NOT SHOW UP TO THE SUMMIT, THAT PUTS SOME PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT MODI AND THE OTHERS WHO WERE ATTENDING TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WASN'T A COMPLETE LOSS FOR HIM DIPLOMATICALLY.

HAVING THOSE TWO LEADERS NOT SHOW UP ISN'T A GOOD LOOK FOR THE HOST, SO, THEY WANTED TO MAKE SURE AT LEAST THAT THERE WOULD BE A COMMUNIQUE.

IT'S IN DIPLOMATIC CIRCLES SEEN AS A FAILURE IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOME KIND OF COMMUNIQUE, SOME LANGUAGE THAT YOU ALL AGREE ON.

THAT'S THE WAY THAT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN DONE, AND SO, THIS WAS ESSENTIALLY KIND OF A THANK YOU TO THE HOST, THIS COMMUNIQUE, BUT THE UKRAINIANS ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THERE'S NOTHING PRINCIPLED IT IN TO, YOU KNOW, WHITEWASH WHAT RUSSIA'S DOING TO THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, AND FRANKLY, THE COST THAT THE PEOPLE ARE FACING IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IN AFRICA IN PARTICULAR, BECAUSE OF THE FOOD SHORTAGES, BECAUSE OF THE RUSSIAN BLOCKADE OF UKRAINE.

SO, THEY GOT A PASS, FOR SURE, THE RUSSIANS DID, IT JUST MAKES THE COUNTRIES THAT WOULDN'T GO ALONG WITH THE STRONGEST POSITION LOOK BAD.

>> AND OF COURSE THEY DID HAVE A MUCH STRONGER POSITION AT THE LAST G-20 IN INDONESIA.

YOU MENTIONED AFRICA AND THE OBVIOUS COST.

THE G-20, I BELIEVE, BROUGHT IN THE AFRICAN UNION, EXPANDING AFRICAN PRESENCE, AND, YOU KNOW, CENTER OF GRAVITY, SO, I GUESS THAT LEADS ME TO THE NEXT QUESTION -- DO YOU BELIEVE, BECAUSE OF WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THE ATTEMPT TO SORT OF DETER, WHATEVER, ISOLATE CHINA A LITTLE BIT, THERE'S SOME KIND OF NEW WORLD ORDER EMERGING?

LET ME JUST READ YOU FROM "THE FINANCIAL TIMES."

WELCOME TO THE A LA CARTE WORLD.

AS THE POST-COLD WAR AGE OF AMERICA FADES, THE OLD ERA, WHEN THE COUNTRIES HAD TO CHOOSE FROM A PRE-FIXED MENU OF ALLIANCES, IS SHIFTING INTO A MORE FLUID ORDER.

DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS IS A NEW EMERGING ERA OF GEOPOLITICS?

>> THINGS ARE SHIFTING, I'M NOT SURE THAT WE KNOW EXACTLY WHETHER IT'S GOING TO BE THIS PICK AND CHOOSE OPTION OR NOT.

I THINK IT'S PROBABLY TOO EARLY TO TELL WHETHER YOU CAN BE A COUNTRY LIKE SAUDI ARABIA THAT VIOLATES HUMAN RIGHTS, BUT 100% MILITARILY ALLIED WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

I WILL SAY, THOUGH, THE FACT THAT WE ARE NOW WOOING THESE COUNTRIES, AS THE CHINESE AND THE RUSSIANS, FEELING A LITTLE BIT MORE LIKE THE COLD WAR, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE GLOBAL TRADE, SO FAR, AT LEAST, NATIONALISM HAS NOT TAKEN OVER AND SHUT DOWN THE GLOBAL TRADE THAT WE'VE ENJOYED.

SO, IF -- IF THAT CONTINUES TO BE THE CASE, THEN WE ARE IN A NEW -- IN A NEW PHASE, AND THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING.

I JUST WORRY THAT ONCE YOU START HAVING MORE PICKING OF SIDES, IT COULD GET DANGEROUS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH CHINA, WE HAVE TO MAINTAIN SOME LEVEL OF TRADE WITH CHINA, BECAUSE IF WE BECOME COMPLETELY PROTECTIONIST TOWARDS THEM, THE ECONOMIC COMMUNITY THAT WE'VE ESTABLISHED, OUR ECONOMIC, YOU KNOW, ALL OF OUR -- THE KIND OF STANDARD OF LIVING THAT WE ENJOY WILL BE PUT INTO JEOPARDY.

PROJECTIONISM OFTEN LEADS TO WAR, FRANKLY, SO -- WE ARE AT A DIFFERENT PHASE RIGHT NOW, BUT I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE.

>> OKAY, SO, ON THE IMMEDIATE THREAT TO UKRAINE, AS YOU SAID, LITERALLY 30 SECONDS, YOU SAID PUTIN HAS TO BE DEFEATED THERE.

IS THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES DOING ENOUGH?

>> WE'RE NEVER DOING ENOUGH, CHRISTIANE.

WE CAN ALWAYS DO MORE.

WE NEED TO PROVIDE UKRAINE WITH MORE ASSISTANCE NOW SO THAT THEY CAN DEFEAT THE RUSSIANS THIS SEASON, BEFORE THE WINTER.

>> EVELYN FARKAS, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED, FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, THE IDEA, AND THE STORIED ORIGINS OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION HAVE SHAPED MOST OF HISTORY AND POLITICS AS WE KNOW IT, BUT OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THE TRADITIONAL FROM PLATO TO NATO UNDERSTANDING IS MISLEADING.

ANCIENT HIS TOUR YAN NAOISE MAC SWEENEY EXPLAINS IT ALL IN HER NEW BOOK, "THE WEST."

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT'S LOVELY TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION.

>> YOU ARE A CLASSICAL ARCHAEOLOGIST, A HISTORIAN OF ANCIENT ERAS.

YOUR BOOK MAKES TWO POWERFUL, AND I THINK FOR SOME PEOPLE, PROVOCATIVE ARGUMENTS.

THE FIRST IS THAT OUR GENERAL STORY ABOUT THE HISTORY OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS FACTUALLY WRONG, SO, WHY DON'T WE JUST START WITH THAT, AND WHAT IS THIS FALSE NARRATIVE THAT WE'VE ALL BEEN TAUGHT?

>> WELL, THE STORY THAT I THINK MOST PEOPLE WILL RECOGNIZE TELLS THE TALE OF THE ORIGINS, THE MODERN WEST, OF HAVING ITS ORIGINS, ITS ROOTS IN ANCIENT GREECE AND ROME AND THAT WESTERN CIVILIZATION IS TRANSFERRED INTO CENTRAL AND NORTHERN AND WESTERN EUROPE AND FROM THERE, IT GETS TRANSFERRED, ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, ESPECIALLY, TO NORTH AMERICA.

SO, THIS IS THE STORY OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION, AND IT'S ALL AROUND US.

WE SEE IT EVERYWHERE WE TURN.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I REALLY WANTED TO DEBUNK IN THE BOOK IS THAT THIS IS A STORY THAT DOESN'T MATCH THE FACTS THAT WE HAVE CURRENTLY.

YOU KNOW, IT MAY HAVE MATCHED THE FACTS THAT WE HAD AT THE TIME THE STORY WAS FIRST WRITTEN, BUT WE HAVE MORE FACTS NOW.

WE KNOW MORE ABOUT THE PAST, AND THAT'S SIMPLY NOT THE WAY CULTURE TRAVELS OR CIVILIZATION TRAVELS.

THE REAL STORY IS MUCH, MUCH MORE COMPLEX.

>> SO, WHY DOES IT PERSIST?

WHY DOES IT PERSIST AS THE WAY WE ARE TAUGHT THIS STORY?

>> OH, WELL, OKAY, THAT QUESTION IS KIND OF TWO ANSWERS.

THE FIRST ONE IS, IS THAT THE DIFFERENT BITS OF IT ARE KNOWN, BUT WE HAVEN'T PUT IT ALL TOGETHER.

WE KNOW THAT ANCIENT GREEK CULTURE AND PHILOSOPHY AND LEARNING WASN'T JUST INHERITED IN WESTERN EUROPE, WE KNOW THAT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT IN THE MEDIEVAL ARABIC WORLD, WE KNOW THAT ANCIENT GREEK WAS STILL USED AS A LANGUAGE RIGHT UNTIL THE 14th CENTURY IN SUDAN.

SO, WE KNOW IT'S A MUCH RICHER SET OF CULTURAL TRANSMISSIONS.

IT'S JUST JOINING IT UP INTO ONE BIG OVERARCHING THEIR TICH, WHICH WE HAVEN'T QUITE DONE.

AND WHEN WE ASK, WHY HAVEN'T WE DONE THAT, WHY HAVEN'T WE REWRITTEN THIS BIG NARRATIVE?

AND I THINK BECAUSE IT'S BEEN POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT FOR US NOT TO.

THIS FULFILLS A CERTAIN SOVIET, AND IT HAS BEEN VERY CONVENIENT OVER THE CENTURIES TO HANG ONTO IT, BECAUSE IT BOLSTERS WESTERN IDEAS OF WESTERN SUPREMACY, WESTERN IDENTITY, AND WESTERN EXCEPTIONALISM.

>> AND THAT IS LIKE THE SECOND POINT THAT YOU MAKE VERY EXPLICITLY IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS THAT, THIS NARRATIVE, THIS FALSE NARRATIVE, HAS STAYING POWER, BECAUSE IT'S BEEN USEFUL TO THOSE WHO WANT TO DOMINATE.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK -- THIS IS NOT A SHOCK HORROR MOMENT.

ALL HISTORICAL NARRATIVES DO THIS, RIGHT?

THAT'S WHY WE TELL HISTORIES THE WAY WE DO, BECAUSE THEY MAKE SENSE TO US.

AND THEY HELP US TO EXPLAIN WHO WE ARE TODAY.

NOW, THE ONLY TROUBLE IS IS THAT THIS NARRATIVE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION, IT DOESN'T REALLY EXPLAIN WHO WE ARE TODAY IN THE MODERN WEST IN THE 21st CENTURY.

I THINK IT WORKED WELL FOR THE 18th AND 19th CENTURY WHEN IT WAS A STRONG NARRATIVE.

IT BEGAN TO WORK LESS WELL AS THE 20th CENTURY WENT ON ITS WAY, BUT NOW WE'RE IN THE 21st CENTURY.

THE MODERN WEST IS NOT THE SAME AS THE WEST OF 1900.

AND WE NEED.

>> THIS IS THE APPROACH YOU TOOK, TO GROUND YOUR STORIES IN THE LIVES OF 14 HISTORICAL FIGURES, AND OBVIOUSLY CAN'T ASK YOU TO DESCRIBE ALL 14 OF THEM, BUT I WANTED TO ASK YOU, IF WE COULD PICK A COUPLE, AND THEN, IF YOU COULD SORT OF DESCRIBE YOUR THESIS THROUGH THEIR LIVES.

SO, IF YOU COULD JUST START WITH THE ANCIENT GREEK HISTORIAN, HOW DOES HE COMPLICATE OUR -- OUR NOTIONS ABOUT THESE SORT OF -- THE INHERENT KIND OF WHITENESS OF WESTERN CULTURE AND THIS KIND OF CLEAR THROUGH LINE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I START WITH HIM IN THE BOOK, BECAUSE WE OFTEN LOOK BACK TO HIM, CALL HIM THE FATHER OF HISTORY, AND WE OFTEN ASSUME THAT HE IS THE FIRST ORIGINATOR OF THIS CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS, THE WEST VERSUS THE REST KIND OF NARRATIVE, VERY FAMOUSLY, HE WROTE HIS BIG MAGNUM 0 PUS WAS CALLED THE PERSIAN WARS AND TOLD THE STORY OF HOW AN ALLIANCE OF GREEK CITY STATES FOUGHT AGAINST THE PERSIAN EMPIRE.

SO, THIS BOOK IS OFTEN BEING READ AS A CLASH OF CIVILIZATION STORY, BUT IF YOU DELVE INTO THE BOOK, BUT HIS OWN LIFE, YOU CAN SEE HOW IT'S JUST NOT THAT SIMPLE.

HE HIMSELF, HE'S BORN IN MODERN DAY TURKEY.

HE'S A GREEK, HE'S GOT A GREEK NAME, BUT HE SEEMS TO BE AT LEAST HALF INDIGENOUS ANATOLIAN.

HIS FATHER HAS AN INDIGENOUS NAME.

OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ALSO SEEM TO BE INDIGENOUS.

HE'S A MIXED CULTURE KID.

HE ENDS UP HAVING TO LEAVE HIS HOME FOR POLITICAL REASONS, HE'S ESSENTIALLY A REFUGEE AND HE WINDS UP IN ATHENS, WHICH IS THE KIND OF GOLDEN TOWN OF THE MOMENT.

AND HE'S TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING AS A YOUNG WRITER AND HE'S DOING REALLY WELL IN ATHENS, BUT VERY STRANGELY, AT SOME POINT, HE DECIDES TO LEAVE ATHENS AND LIVE OUT THE REST OF HIS DAYS IN A SMALL TOWN IN SOUTHERN ITALY.

AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE ASKED OVER THE YEARS, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT, WHEN HE'S BEEN -- THE MOMENT WHERE HE'S A GREAT SUCCESSFUL WRITER, WHY IS HE LEAVING?

AND I THINK THE ANSWER LIES IN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ATHENS.

BECAUSE IT IS DRAWING IN WEALTH AND RICHES AND TREASURE FROM AN EMPIRE, AN EMPIRE OF OTHER GREEKS AND WHAT THE POLITICAL RHETORIC OF ATHENS AT THIS MOMENT IS ONE OF INCREASING EXCLUSIONISM, IT IS ONE OF RACIAL PURITY, AND IT'S -- THEY ARE DEFINITELY TRYING TO MAKE IT AN UNCOMFORTABLE MOMENT FOR MIGRANTS TO BE IN.

AND WE CAN ONLY IMAGINE HE MUST HAVE FELT THAT.

AND WHEN WE KNOW THIS ABOUT HIS LIFE, AND THEN WE GO BACK TO READ HIS BOOK, THE HISTORY IS WHAT WE FIND IS THAT NOT A TRIUMPHANT STORY OF THE GREEKS DEFEATING THE COWARDLY EASTERN ASIANS, BUT ACTUALLY, WE SEE A MUCH MORE COMPLICATED STORY, WHERE DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE ARE INTERRELATED IN DIFFERENT WAYS, WHERE IT IS ALMOST RIDICULOUS TO DRAW STARK LINES BETWEEN PEOPLE, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY INTERCONNECTIONS.

AND ACTUALLY WHAT HE SEEMS TO BE DOING THROUGHOUT THE HISTORIES IS RUBBISHING THE IDEA OF A CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS, HE'S MOCKING IT.

HE'S SHOWING THAT IT DOESN'T WORK.

SO, I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE MISREAD HIM OVER THE CENTURIES BECAUSE OF THIS.

>> WHAT ABOUT PHYLLIS WHEATLEY?

I WAS SO INTRIGUED TO SEE HER INCLUDED IN YOUR WORK.

FAMOUS TO SOME PEOPLE, ENSLAVED AFRICAN AMERICAN POET, WHY DOES SHE -- HOW DOES SHE ENCAPSULATE YOUR THEORY?

>> WELL, I FIRST CAME ACROSS PHYLLIS WHEATLEY AS AN EARLY CLASSICAL SCHOLAR, I MEAN, SHE'S KNOWN NOT JUST FOR HER POETRY, BUT FOR THE VERY INNOVATIVE WAY THAT SHE USES CLASSICAL LANGUAGES, LATIN AND GREEK LITERATURE.

BUT TO LEARN ABOUT HER LIFE PUT ALL OF THIS INTO A VERY STARK CONTEXT.

SHE OBVIOUSLY WAS BORN IN WEST AFRICA AROUND 1755, AND SHE ENDED UP BEING ENSLAVED AND TRANSPORTED TO BOSTON, AND THERE, SHE IS -- SHE SHOWS A GREAT ATTITUDE FOR LANGUAGE LEARNING AND SO, SHE LEARNS LATIN AND GREEK VERY QUICKLY.

BY THE AGE OF 12, SHE'S PUBLISHING POEMS.

SHE'S A SENSATION.

NOBODY CAN BELIEVE THIS YOUNG ENSLAVED GIRL CAN PRODUCE LITERARY WORKS OF THIS HIGH CALIBER.

AND TO READ HER POETRY REALLY SHOWS YOU THE DEPTH OF HER ENGAGEMENT WITH THE IDEA OF THE CLASSICAL PAST AND THE WESTERN TRADITION, AND SHE'S VERY CLEVER ABOUT IT.

SHE -- SHE DRAWS UPON IT IN VERY SOPHISTICATED WAYS, BUT SHE ALSO POSITIONS HERSELF IN A PROBLEMATIC WAY TO THAT INHERITED CLASSICAL TRADITION.

SHE IS PART OF IT, SHE'S MASTERED IT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, SHE FEELS EXCLUDED BY IT, AND SHE DRAWS COMPARISONS BETWEEN HERSELF AND AFRICAN LATIN POET, TERRANCE.

SO, SHE'S A REALLY INTERESTING FIG YUFR.

AND THEN YOU FIND LATER IN HER LIFE, SHE WROTE VERY PAINFULLY ABOUT HER OWN EXPERIENCE AS BEING IN HER WORDSSNATCHED, AND WRITES ABOUT HOW THE REVOLUTIONARY MOVEMENT IN BOSTON AT THE TIME, SHE'S CAUGHT UP IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, HOW SHE QUESTIONS HOW THIS CAN EVER FIND DIVINE FFAVOR, WHY THEY CONTINUE TO PRACTICE ENSLAVEMENT.

SHE FINDS HER POLITICAL VOICE, AS WELL AS HAVING A LITERAL VOICE.

BUT THEN, IT'S VERY SAD, SHE HAS A VERY TRAGIC END, DIES, AND YOU DO WONDER HOW MUCH OF THAT IS LINKED TO HER SPEAKING OUT POLITICALLY.

>> AND THERE'S ONE OTHER PERSON I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT, A POET, A PHILOSOPHER, AND A FAMOUS COURT SAN OF THE ITALIAN RENAISSANCE.

WHY DID YOU INCLUDE HER STORY IN THE BOOK?

>> SHE IS ANOTHER FANTASTIC LITERARY WOMAN, WHICH I WAS VERY EXCITED TO BEGIN READING ABOUT.

AND BECAUSE, AGAIN, SHE UNDERMINES WHAT WE THINK OF AS HAPPENING IN THE RENAISSANCE, WHAT WE THINK OF THE RENAISSANCE, BEING A REVIVAL, LITERALLY A REBIRTH OF CLASSICAL AND WESTERN CIVILIZATION, A REDISCOVERY OF THE ANCIENT WORLD.

BUT ACTUALLY, TULI'S POETRY AND HER LETTERS ARE NOT -- ARE NOT LIKE THAT.

THEY HAVE AN AWARENESS OF A MUCH WIDER WORLD, SO, SHE DOES WRITE WITH CLASSICAL ILLUSIONS.

SHE WRITES VERY WITTILY AND VERY SOPHISTICATEDLY.

BUT SHE ALSO WRITES THIS WONDERFUL EPIC POEM, WHICH IS LIKE AN ADVENTURE STORY ABOUT ACTUALLY AN ENSLAVED YOUNG MAN WHO ENDS UP BECOMING FREE AND TRAVELING THE WORLD TO TRY AND FIND HIS PARENTS, CALLED "THE RETCHED ONE."

HE TRAVELS THROUGH ASIA AND AFRICA, AND TO THE WILDS OF EUROPE AND FINDS HIS PARENTS BACK HOME IN ITALY, OF COURSE.

BUT ALL OF THESE THREE CONTINENTS ARE DESCRIBED IN EQUALITY STRANGE AND WEIRD AND WILD WAYS.

AND WHAT TULI SHOWS US IS A WORLD WHICH IS NOT DIVIDED INTO EUROPE AND THE WEST IN CLASSICAL CULTURE ON THE ONE HAND, AND THE MONSTROUS EASTERN AND AFRICA ON THE OTHER HAND.

WE HAVE ELEMENTS OF CHRISTIANITY IN ALL THREE CONTINENTS.

WE HAVE ELEMENTS OF CLASSICAL GREEK AND ROMAN CULTURE IN ALL THREE CONTINENTS, AND WE HAVE ELEMENTS OF BARBARITY IN ALL THREE CONTINENTS, AS WELL.

WE HAVE TO REASSESS WHAT WE THINK OF THE WORLD VIEW, MUCH MORE GLOBAL THAN WHAT WE THOUGHT BEFORE.

>> THE ARGUMENT HAS BEEN MADE FOR SOME TIME THAT GENIUS KNOWS NO CONTINENT, YOU KNOW?

THAT GENIUS KNOWS NO CONTINENT, CREATIVITY KNOWS NO CONTINENT.

WHAT IS DIFFERENT IS, YOU KNOW, OPPORTUNITY AND ACCESS, THE ABILITY TO EXPRESS IT.

AND I'M JUST SORT OF CURIOUS, LIKE, WHY DO WE -- WHY SHOULD THIS EVEN BE A RADICAL IDEA AT THIS POINT IN OUR LIVES?

>> IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S RADICAL NOW, BECAUSE, I THINK -- I FEEL, AT LEAST, THE POLITICAL DISCOURSE IN ESPECIALLY NORTH AMERICA AND IN EUROPE HAS BECOME VERY, VERY POLARIZED, AND WE SEEM TO BE RETRENCHING OURSELVES AT DIFFERENT ENDS OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, AND UNABLE TO ENGAGE IN DIALOGUE ACROSS THE MIDDLE.

AND SO, TERMS LIKE THE WEST AND WESTERN CIVILIZATION HAVE EITHER BECOME TERMS FOR STICKING UP ON A STATUE PEDESTAL AND LIONIZING AND SAYING THEY ARE UNTOUCHABLE, FOR ONE SIDE OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, AND ON THE OTHER SIDE, THEY'VE ALMOST BECOME DIRTY WORDS.

THEY ARE SOMETHING SHAMEFUL, OR SOMETHING THAT WE -- TO BE DENIGRATED.

AND BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE CLEARLY STRAWMEN.

THESE ARE TWO STRAW MEN.

SO, IF WE CANNOT MOVE PAST THAT, IF WE CAN'T GET A MORE SOPHISTICATED, LESS TWO-DIMENSIONAL STRAW MAN VIEW OF WHAT WESTERN SOCIETY AND WHAT THE WEST CURRENTLY IS, WE'RE NEVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FORWARD.

>> BUT WHY DO YOU THINK THERE'S SUCH AN AGGRESSIVE MOVE NOW TO UPHOLD THIS SPECIFIC VIEW OF, YOU KNOW, WESTERN SAVIZATION?

NOT JUST IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WE SEE THIS IN OTHER, YOU KNOW, WESTERN GOVERNMENTS, THIS DESIRE TO KIND OF NARROW THE FOCUS OF HISTORY, RATHER THAN BROADEN THAT.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> I THINK IT'S BECAUSE WE'RE AT A CRITICAL JUNCTURE IN KIND OF THE BALANCE OF POWER GLOBALLY, WHERE THE WEST IS NO LONGER OCCUPYING THIS UNRIVALED POSSESSION OF DOMINANCE, WHICH IT HAS HAD FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF CENTURIES.

WE'VE HAD THE RECENT CHALLENGES OF, WELL, RUSSIA, ESPECIALLY WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE, RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, BUT PERHAPS EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY IS THE RISE OF CHINA, BOTH ECONOMICALLY AND ALSO POLITICALLY, AS WELL.

NOW, WHEREVER YOU STAND ON THAT, WHETHER YOU THINK THIS IS A GOOD THING OR A BAD THING, IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD, IT IS SOMETHING WHICH IS -- MEANS THE WORLD ORDER IS CHANGING, THAT THINS ARE CHANGING AROUND THE WEST, NOT JUST WITHIN CHINA, BUT ALSO CHINA'S INTERACTIONS WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

AND THE WEST THEREFORE HAS TO RETHINK ITS POSITION, AND WHAT IT FUNDAMENTALLY IS.

IN DOING THAT, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO STEP BACK AND RETRENCH AND MAYBE PUT THEIR HANDS OVER THEIR EARS AND SAY, IT'S NOT HAPPENING, THE WEST IS WHAT IT ALWAYS WAS, IT CAN'T CHANGE, IT'S NEVER GOING TO CHANGE, AND THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, WHO SEE THE FAULTS OF THE WEST AND WANT TO ALMOST RIP IT TO SHREDS, BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE WHO ARE SEEKING TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THE WEST IS NOW, AND IT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS 100 YEARS AGO, IT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS 150 YEARS AGO.

IT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS EVEN 20 YEARS AGO, SO, THE KINDS OF IDENTITY WE NEED IN THE WEST NOW ARE NOT THE KINDS OF IDENTITY WE NEED AT THE TIME THAT THIS IDEA OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION WAS BEING PROMOTED.

WE NEED SOMETHING ELSE.

AND WE NEED IT NOW.

>> YOU SAY VERY CLEARLY THAT YOUR BOOK IS NOT AN ATTACK ON THE WEST.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT, AND WHY YOU MADE A POINT OF SAYING THAT?

>> I MADE A POINT OF SAYING THIS, BECAUSE THERE IS -- THERE IS A SCHOOL, OR A POLITICAL CORNER, WHICH DOES WANT TO CRITIQUE THE WEST AND WESTERN CIVILIZATION, SAYING THAT THERE'S NOTHING GOOD ABOUT IT, AND IT'S ALL TO BE DENIGRATED AND ACKNOWLEDGING SOME OF THE HORRORS OF THE PAST IN WESTERN HISTORY.

NOW, I THINK WE MUST ACKNOWLEDGE THOSE HORRORS, WE MUST COME FACE-TO-FACE WITH THEM, BUT THAT -- DOES NOT MEAN TO SAY THAT THE WEST IN THE CURRENT WORLD IS SOMETHING THAT YOU SHOULD GIVE UP ON.

NOW, I AM OF THE WEST, I LIVE IN THE WEST, I DO HAVE A CHINESE MOTHER AND I HAVE FAMILY ROOTS IN CHINA, BUT I AM OF THE WEST.

AND THERE ARE THINGS THAT I CHERISH AND VALUE, WHICH I THINK ARE CORE TO MODERN 21st CENTURY WESTERN IDENTITY.

AND IN POLITICAL DEBATES NOWADAYS, AROUND ME, THERE ARE -- IT'S OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE THAT SEE THOSE THINGS AS CORE TO WESTERN IDENTITY, AND DEMOCRACY, THE RULE OF LAW, FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREEDOM OF WORSHIP, WE COULD DEBATE WHICH ONES WE WANT TO INCLUDE AND EXCLUDE.

BUT THE CORE VALUES OF THE WEST, AS I SEE IT, AND AS MANY PEOPLE AROUND ME SEEM TO SEE IT, ARE NO LONGER RACIAL OR ETHNIC IN THE SAME WAYS THEY WERE 100 OR 70 OR EVEN 50 YEARS AGO.

AND SO, THIS NEW -- THIS CURRENT WEST, WHICH WE'RE NOW LIVING IN TODAY, IS THE WEST THAT I THINK WE NEED TO SEEK TO UNDERSTAND AND WHICH WE NEED TO FIND A NEW ORIGIN FOR.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO REVEALING.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, WE'VE HAD THE WORLD CUP FINALS, THE U.S. OPEN FINALS, THE TENNIS, THAT IS, AND MUCH MORE.

BUT HOW ABOUT THIS FIERCE COMPETITION IN THE BALKAN STATE OF MONTENEGRO?

PARTICIPANTS ARE TAKING SLACKING OFF TO NEW HEIGHTS.

VYING FOR THE TITLE OF LAZIEST CITIZEN.

NOW, IN ITS 12th YEAR, THE CONTEST BEGAN AS A PLAYFUL FOIL TO THE MYTH THAT THEY ARE LAZY.

AFTER A RECORD-SHATTERING 24 DAYS OF TWIDDLING THUMBS AND STAYING PRONE, ONLY SEVEN PEOPLE ARE LEFT IN THIS BID TO BECOME THE ULTIMATE LAY-ABOUT.

WELL, THAT'S ONE KIND OF COMPETITION.

>>> AND TOMORROW, LOOK OUT FOR MY CONVERSATION WITH THE AWARD-WINNING NOVELIST, AUTHOR OF WORKS LIKE "AMERICANA" AND "HALF OF THE YELLOW SON."

WE'LL DISCUSS HER VERY FIRST CHILDREN'S BOOK, "MOMMA'S SLEEPING SCARF" AND ASK THE AUTHOR HOW HER DAUGHTER AND PARENTS INSPIRED THIS LEAP INTO YOUNG LITERATURE.

>>> IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.