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>>> WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE RISE OF AUTOCRATS AND THE NEXT GUEST IS NOT AFRAID TO CALL ONE OF THEM OUT. RACHEL VINDMAN, WHOSE HUSBAND, ALEXANDER, THRUST INTO THE NATIONAL SPOTLIGHT AFTER BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S ALLEGED ABUSE OF POWER AND THE SUBURBAN PROBLEM OF WOMEN, SHE TALKS ABOUT HER BREAKUP WITH THE REPUBLICAN PART PARTY REPRESENTS SOMETHING LARGER. HERE SHE IS SPEAKING TO MICHEL MARTIN. >> THANKS, CHRISTIANE. THANK YOU, RACHEL, SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. THIS IS AN HONOR. >> YOU'RE LIVING YOUR LIFE, MILITARY SPOUSE, SERVICE AND THE WORK HE'S DOING, YOU'VE LIVED IN COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD. YOU'RE BACK HERE, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, EVERYTHING CHANGES FOR YOU. IT JUST, COULD YOU JUST WALK US THROUGH THOSE FIRST FEW DAYS WHERE YOU REALIZED, I DON'T EVEN, HOLY COW. THIS IS A TSUNAMI COMING AT US. WHAT WAS THAT LIKE? >> THE FIRST FEW DAYS WERE PRETTY AWFUL. I'M NOT GOING TO SUGAR COAT IT. THERE WAS A LOT OF SUPPORT, OF COURSE, BUT THEN THE TROLLS STARTED COMING. A LITTLE BIT BEFORE THAT, MY HUSBAND WAS CALLED IN BY THE CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ARMY, GENERAL JAMES McCONVILLE AND WHEN HE TOLD ME WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CONVERSATION, I KNEW THAT HIS CAREER IN THE ARMY WAS OVER. IT TOOK HIM A LOT LONGER TO REALIZE IT, BUT I COULD TELL FROM WHAT GENERAL McCONVILLE SAID TO HIM, WHAT HE DIDN'T SAY, I KNEW HIS CAREER WAS OVER AND THEN THE NEXT DAY IS REALLY WHEN DON JR. STARTED IN AND THERE WAS SOMEONE ELSE ONLINE WHO WAS SAYING SOME THINGS THAT WEREN'T TRUE AND ALEX IS AN EXTREMELY FORGIVING PERSON. LIKE, LOOK, RACHEL, THIS PERSON, HE'S A COMBAT VETERAN, MAYBE THERE'S MORE GOING ON, IT'S NOT TRUE. LET'S JUST LEAVE IT. IT WILL JUST GO AWAY AND THEN THE PRESIDENT WAS GOING SOMEWHERE AND HE ACTUALLY QUOTED THE GUY OR ALLUDED TO THE ALLEGATIONS THAT WERE BEING MADE AND I JUST THOUGHT, I WAS TRYING TO TELL HIM, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE TRUTH IS. HAVE YOU NOT BEEN WATCHING? HAVE YOU NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION FOR THE PAST THREE YEARS THAT THIS MAN HAS BEEN, HE'S BEEN RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT. THE TRUTH IS IMMATERIAL. BUT THEY WANT TO DESTROY YOU AND DESTROY US, THEN THEY WILL AND NOTHING ELSE WILL MATTER. IT WAS VERY, VERY SCARY. >> WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU? WERE YOU CHECKING YOUR PHONE CONSTANTLY TO SEE WHAT THE LATEST TERRIBLE THING WAS BEING SAID? WERE YOUR FRIENDS CALLING YOU TO ASK WHAT WAS OKAY, WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR YOU? >> AND AT THAT POINT, I THINK WE ENJOYED BIPARTISAN SUPPORT BECAUSE EVEN THE ATTACKS THAT WERE MADE ON ALEX AND PEOPLE KNEW IT WAS PATENTLY UNTRUE WITH WHAT HE DID OR HOW HE DID IT, BUT BECAUSE HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE MILITARY IN SERVICE, CERTAINLY COULDN'T DO MEDIA AND SPEAK OUT. SO IT WAS VERY HARD TO NOT HAVE THE TRUTH OUT, TO NOT BE ABLE, FOR SOMEONE TO BE MAKING ALLEGATIONS AND SAYING ABOUT YOU AND JUST HAVING ZERO ABILITY TO RESPOND AND THAT WAS REALLY FRUSTRATING TO ME. AT THE SAME TIME, I KNOW THE TRUTH. I KNOW WHO WE ARE AND THROUGHOUT OUR RELATIONSHIP AND TIME TOGETHER, THAT HAS BEEN TOUGH. WE HAD TO LEAN ON EACH OTHER A LOT OF TIMES. I FOUND COMFORT IN THAT, AND OF COURSE, MY CLOSEST FAMILY AND FRIENDSHIPS BUT IT WAS FRUSTRATING, VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING. >> WERE YOU EVER AFRAID? ONE OF THE THINGS THESE TROLLS ARE KNOWN TO DO IS TO THREATEN PEOPLE. >> MANY TIMES I WAS AFRAID. SO DEFINITELY AFTER THE CLOSED DOOR TESTIMONY, AND THEN THE PUBLIC TESTIMONY, IN PARTICULAR, THERE WERE SENATOR MARCIA BLACKBURN TWEETS, WHICH THE VERY WITTY VINDMAN IS THE WHISTLEBLOWER'S HANDLER AND OTHER COMMENTS LIKE THAT. SHE REALLY HAS A WAY WITH WORDS. THOSE COMMENTS ESPECIALLY, AS STUPID AS THEY WERE, DEFINITELY LED TO AN UPTICK IN RHETORIC AND THREATS. WE DID GET SOME LETTERS TO OUR HOUSE AND WE DEFINITELY, OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY, YOU KNOW, THE ARMY MADE SURE THAT WE HAD PROTECTION, BUT I WAS VERY, VERY SCARED FOR MY HUSBAND'S SAFETY. I WAS AFRAID FOR HIM AT WORK IN HIS WORK ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE THEY KNEW EVERYWHERE HE WAS GOING. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE EXTENT OF IT WHICH WAS PROBABLY BEST UNTIL LATER ALL THE WAYS THEY WERE MAKING HIS LIFE VERY MISERABLE BUT FORTUNATELY, I GUESS THEY LEFT US OUT OF IT AT HOME. >> SO NOW, YOU'VE MADE THE DECISION TO ACTUALLY KEEP SPEAKING OUT. TALK ABOUT THAT. YOU'VE BECOME A COLUMNIST FOR "USA TODAY." YOU HAVE A PODCAST, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT IN A MINUTE WHERE YOU GRAPPLE WITH SOME OF THESE ISSUES. SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST KIND OF LIKE, I'M DONE WITH THIS. THE CHAPTER WITH CLOSURE. I NEVER WANT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS AND I'LL JUST DISAPPEAR. THAT WAS NOT YOUR CHOICE. TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT. WHY? >> BECAUSE THIS MOMENT, THIS FIGHT THAT WE HAVE IS ONGOING AND I HAVE A PLATFORM AND I THINK IT'S MY DUTY TO USE MY PLATFORM TO SPEAK OUT. IT, SORRY. >> WHAT ARE YOU FEELING RIGHT NOW? >> IT'S DIFFICULT, ALWAYS A DIFFICULT QUESTION FOR ME TO ANSWER OF THE WHY, AND I GUESS, AND I SAID IN THE FIRST "USA TODAY" COLUMN, THE MOST AUTHENTIC VERSION OF MYSELF RIGHT NOW. I FEEL THAT I CAN'T JUST SIT ON THE SIDELINES. THIS IS THE COUNTRY THAT I LOVE. I GAVE UP MY CAREER AMBITIONS. I GAVE UP A LOT WHEN I MARRIED ALEX TO BE A MILITARY SPOUSE AND DID SO GLADLY BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS AN EXTENSION OF HIS SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY AND I KNOW A LOT OF MILITARY SPOUSES FEEL THAT WAY. BUT WHEN I REALIZED THAT JUST A REGULAR PERSON'S VOICE COULD HAVE A DIFFERENCE, I FELT I HAD TO USE IT. >> HOW DID THE PODCAST START? >> IT'S REALLY JUST WOMEN DISCUSSIONS. AND THAT IS SOMETHING I COMPLETELY RELATE TO. I OFTEN LIKEN IT TO OUR BUS STOP MOMS GROUP. SO PEOPLE HAVE COME AND GONE AND MOVED. MY DAUGHTER'S IN FIFTH GRADE. WE'VE BEEN DOING THE BUS STOP THING FOR SIX YEARS AND EVERYONE COMES FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND DIFFERENT POLITICAL VIEWS BUT WE HAVE ONE REALLY KEY THING IN COMMON IS THAT WE ALL HAVE CHILDREN. THEY GO TO THE SAME SCHOOL AND WE CARE ABOUT THEM A LOT. THAT'S A PRETTY BIG BASE FROM WHICH YOU CAN TALK ABOUT A LOT OF THINGS ON THAT LEVEL. AND IF YOU TALK ABOUT, YOU START TO DISAGREE, AS YOU BUILD UP, THEN I RESPECT THOSE WOMEN THAT I HAVE MADE THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH SO MUCH AND I THINK THAT THERE'S A PLACE THERE THAT WE CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER AND EVEN HAVE THE HARD CONVERSATIONS, AND I THINK AS A NATION, WE CAN DO THAT AS WELL, BUT I REALLY LIKE TO FOCUS ON WOMEN. IT JUST IS WHERE I FEEL MOST COMFORTABLE. I ALSO, IN ADDITION TO THE PODCAST, I AM ON THE ADVISORY BOARD OF THE RENEWED DEMOCRACY INITIATIVE, WHICH IS A BIT MORE HIGHBROW, I GUESS, BUT IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO. BUT I FEEL LIKE THAT'S A PLACE WHERE I CAN STILL BE ME AND STILL BRING MY UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS DEMOCRACY AND BEING ATTACKED AND HOW CAN WE GET PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT'S HAPPENING AND AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE IT'S EASIEST THROUGH CONVERSATION. >> LET'S DIG INTO THAT FOR A MINUTE HERE BECAUSE THAT IS THE VANTAGE POINT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FASCINATED BY. FIRST OF ALL, JUST HOW DONALD TRUMP GOT ELECTED TO BEGIN WITH. HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL FEEL LIKE, WELL, WAIT A MINUTE, YOU HAD THE MOST QUALIFIED WOMAN, PROBABLY IN HISTORY, PROBABLY THE MOST QUALIFIED CANDIDATE IN HISTORY, AND PEOPLE ARE LIKE, NAH, PICK SOMEBODY WITH A TERRIBLE REPUTATION FOR RACISM AND MISOGYNY. >> I'D ALREADY BEEN MOVING AWAY FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. I DIDN'T HAVE A SENSE OF IMMEDIACY. I DID HAVE AN APPRECIATION FOR HOW DIRE THE SITUATION WAS AND TO THE QUESTION, WHY DID I THINK, HOW DID IT LAND WITH ME AND WAS I SURPRISED? YES. SINCE THEN, WHAT I HAVE LEARNED IS A LOT OF PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY DON'T FEEL HEARD AND RIGHT, WRONG OR INDIFFERENT, DONALD TRUMP MADE THEM FEEL LIKE SOMEONE WAS LISTENING TO THEM. A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL VERY LEFT BEHIND AND NO ONE IS ANSWERING THEIR QUESTIONS, NO ONE IS TALKING TO THEM. >> LET'S FAST FORWARD TO AN ELECTION THAT JUST HAPPENED. I THINK YOU LIVE IN VIRGINIA. >> I DO. >> AND THIS IS ONE OF THE RACES PEOPLE WERE PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO. VIRGINIA IS A STATE THAT BIDEN WON HANDEDLY AND TWO YEARS LATER, GLEN YOUNGKIN, REALLY LEANED IN ON SOME ISSUES THAT WERE CONSIDERED RACE BAITING. WHITE WOMEN FROM JOE BIDEN JUST TWO YEARS EARLIER, TWO YEARS LATER, GLEN YOUNGKIN, 50% OF WHITE WOMEN'S VOTES IN VIRGINIA COMPARED TO 43% FOR McAULIFFE. THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE NBC EXIT POLLING. WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED THERE? >> I THINK TERRY McAULIFFE DIDN'T TALK TO THE VOTERS. WHEN HE MADE THE GAFFE THAT HE SAID HE WAS NOT GOING TO HAVE PARENTS IN SCHOOL, THE CAMPAIGN'S RESPONSE WAS TO HAVE AN AD THAT PRIMARILY HAD TEACHERS. AND I SENT AN EMAIL AND I SAID, HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT DOING AN AD WITH PARENTS? THE RESPONSE FROM PARENTS, AND, YOU KNOW, I GOT AN EMAIL BACK. THANK YOU FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. AND THAT WAS IT. >> THANK YOU FOR YOUR FEEDBACK. >> IT'S HUMBLING ALWAYS, RIGHT? AND THE ORGANIZATION THAT DOES MY PODCAST, RED WHITE AND BLUE WERE VERY ACTIVE IN THIS ELECTION, HELPING LOCAL SCHOOLBOARD CANDIDATES. 72% OF SCHOOL BOARD CANDIDATES WHO RAN AGAINST CRAZY RIGHT WING ANTI-CRT NONSENSE, THEY WON. 72% OF PEOPLE WON. YOU KNOW HOW THEY WON? THEY ADDRESSED CONCERNS FOR PARENTS. WE MADE AN AD, VERY LOW BUDGET. IT WAS A GOOD AD, AND THE CAMPAIGN ACTUALLY TOOK OUR AD, TOOK THEIR AD OFF WITH THE TEACHERS AND PUT THE AD OF VIRGINIA MOM ON. BUT I THINK IT WAS JUST TOO LATE TO REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE. BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, FORMER GOVERNOR McAULIFFE, DIDN'T LISTEN TO PEOPLE AND DIDN'T TALK TO THEM. HERE'S THE DEAL, MICHEL. YOU CAN'T JUST NOT TALK ABOUT IT. YOU HAVE TO TALK TO INDIVIDUALS, POLITICIANS ALSO HAVE TO TALK TO PEOPLE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WANT. >> YOU HAVE BEEN VERY OPEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE LEFT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. YOU SAID THAT WAS KIND OF A LONG TIME COMING AND AFTER WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND AND YOUR FAMILY, IT REALLY WASN'T MUCH OF A CHOICE BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, ARE YOU MORE DISAPPOINTED WITH THE REPUBLICANS OR THE DEMOCRATS AT THIS POINT? BECAUSE YOU HAD SOME WORRIES ABOUT THE DEMOCRATS TOO. >> THAT'S A TOUGH QUESTION. I AM DISAPPOINTED IN PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEE THE URGENCY TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY. SO THE RENEW DEMOCRACY INITIATIVE PUBLISHED A LETTER BY 50 DISSIDENTS AROUND THE WORLD LOOKING AT THE UNITED STATES SAYING THERE'S A SHARK BEHIND YOU. GET OUT OF THE WATER. AND PEOPLE ARE STILL FLOATING, PLAYING AROUND AND SPLASHING AROUND. AND PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO WARN US. THEY'RE ON THE SHORE. THEY'VE BEEN THERE. THEY UNDERSTAND AND WE'RE STILL GOING ALONG LIKE NOTHING IS HAPPENING. AND EVERYTHING IS OKAY. AND I GUESS, IN SOME WAYS, I MAY BE ON THE SHORE ALSO BECAUSE I FEEL THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO MY FAMILY, ALTHOUGH IT'S PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, I MEAN, IT'S A VERY SPECIFIC INSTANCE BUT NORMS ARE BEING ERODED. PEOPLE ARE BEING ATTACKED, AND YOU'RE NOT LISTENING. YOU'RE JUST GOING ON WITH LIFE BECAUSE, HEY, THE ECONOMY IS OKAY AND IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE ALL RIGHT. >> I HAVE WHAT I WANT, SO I DON'T CARE. >> EXACTLY. >> I WANT TO READ FROM ONE OF THE THINGS IN YOUR COLUMN. AS IS THE CASE WITH MANY, I IDENTIFY AS A ONE ISSUE VOTER AT THIS TIME. WHEN I LOOK AT A BALLOT, THE ONLY THING I SEE IS A CHOICE BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND A SLIDE TOWARD AUTHORITARIANISM. THOSE ARE VERY STRONG WORDS. UNFORTUNATELY, WE'VE BEEN HEARING THEM SO MUCH OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS THAT PERHAPS IT DOESN'T STRIKE PEOPLE AS ALARMINGLY AS IT MIGHT HAVE FIVE YEARS AGO, BUT WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO? >> THEY NEED TO VOTE. THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT. BUT ENGAGE. ENGAGE, LEARN WHAT YOUR ELECTED LEADERS ARE SAYING. I WOULD HOPE THAT PEOPLE ARE JUST ABSOLUTELY APPALLED BY THE NONSENSE OF, ASK YOUR ELECTED LEADERS, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO PROTECT DEMOCRACY? WHAT ARE YOU DOING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY FOR JANUARY 6th? MEANINGFUL THINGS. WHAT IS BEING DONE? ARE WE EVER GOING TO HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE COMPLETE TRAGEDY THAT WE SAW ON JANUARY 6th? THE ATTACK ON OUR DEMOCRACY? HOW MANY MORE WARNINGS DO YOU NEED? AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE NEED TO, IF THEY BELIEVE IN SOMETHING, IF THEY BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY IS WORTH SAVING, IF THEY BELIEVE THAT WE NEED LEADERS OF INTEGRITY, THEY NEED TO GO OUT AND ADVOCATE FOR IT. WE HAD PEOPLE WHO WERE HELPING WITH THE McAULIFFE CAMPAIGN. I MEAN, GOOD CANDIDATE OR NOT, AGAIN, IT GOES BACK TO THIS CHOICE. IS SOMEONE WHO'S GOING TO TALK ABOUT ELECTION INTEGRITY, I MEAN, GLEN YOUNGKIN WOULD NOT ADMIT THAT THE 2020 ELECTION IS LEGITIMATE. THAT'S A DEAL BREAKER FOR ME. I DON'T CARE WHAT HE PROMISED TO DO. AND THAT RIGHT THERE, WE'RE DONE. BUT, YOU KNOW, WE NEEDED MORE PEOPLE. BUT PEOPLE WERE SAYING, MAYBE HE'S NOT THAT BAD. HE'LL BE OKAY. NO. IF YOU CAN'T ADMIT THAT A FREE AND FAIR ELECTION WAS INDEED FREE AND FAIR AND SHOULD HAVE HAD A PEACEFUL TRANSITION OF POWER, WHICH WE DIDN'T, THEN YOU'RE NOT THE CANDIDATE FOR ME AND MORE PEOPLE NEED TO JUST SAY THAT. I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO ENGAGE OR LISTEN TO WHAT YOU FEEL OR SAY IF WE CAN'T AGREE ON VERY BASIC THINGS. BUT I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT AS SOME PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO SAY BUT THE FACT THAT HE WAS WILLING TO GO ALONG WITH IT, YOU CAN'T STAND UP FOR BASIC THINGS AND GET ELECTED, THEN I DON'T THINK YOU DESERVE TO BE AN ELECTED OFFICIAL TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. >> YOU'RE ALSO CRITICAL OF THE DEMOCRATS. YOU WRITE IN "USA TODAY" IN THE PUBLISHED PIECE THIS MORNING, TOO OFTEN WHEN A FUTURE FORMER REPUBLICAN NEVER-TRUMPER SAYS SOMETHING OBJECTIONABLE TO A DEMOCRAT, THEIR LOYALTY IS IMMEDIATELY QUESTIONED. THEY ARE LOYAL TO DEMOCRACY AND WILLING TO PUT IN THE TIME AND EFFORT TO DEFEAT TRUMPISM, MORE IMPORTANTLY, IF WE ARE GOING TO WIN TO VOTE. TELL ME MORE ABOUT THAT. >> EVERY DAY, SOMEONE ON TWITTER TELLS HE I'M NOT PROGRESSIVE ENOUGH. I AM NEW TO THE PARTY AND THAT I, MAYBE BECAUSE OF THAT, SHOULDN'T HAVE SUCH A SAY, AND IT'S NOT, I MEAN, IT'S NOT JUST ME. I GUESS, A BIGGER TARGET BUT I SEE PEOPLE SAYING IT TO OTHERS ALL THE TIME. THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE JUMPED ON TO HELP. IT WILL BE GREAT WHEN WE GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT TAX BREAKS AND, YOU KNOW, OTHER, HOW MUCH SHOULD WE SPEND ON THE MILITARY, ET CETERA, ET CETERA. BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE WE ARE NOW. AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE EVERYONE TO WIN THIS FIGHT. THIS FIGHT IS THE FIGHT, THIS IS STILL THE FIGHT FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA BECAUSE THE SOUL OF AMERICA IS DEMOCRACY AND THAT'S STILL WHAT WE'RE FIGHTING FOR. SO THAT'S WHY IT'S GOING TO TAKE EVERYONE AND IF EVERYONE IS ON THE TEAM, EVERYONE NEEDS TO FEEL LIKE THEY'RE A VALUED MEMBER OF THE TEAM OR THEY MIGHT JUST NOT SHOW UP TO THE GAME AND THAT'S THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN. >> RACHEL VINDMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH TALKING WITH US. I HOPE WE'LL TALK AGAIN AND SOMEHOW, I SUSPECT WE WILL. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MICHEL.