Amanpour and Company

>>> NEXT, THE POWER OF EDUCATION IS ESSENTIAL IN COMBATTING THE CULTURE WARS, AND AWARD WINNING AUTHOR EMANI PERRY'S LATEST BOOK "SOUTH TO AMERICA", EXPLORES THE DIVIDE BETWEEN THE NORTHERN AND SOUTHERN STATES. SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON. TO DISCUSS HOW THE BOOK CAN HELP US WORK THROUGH THE TENSIONS OF TODAY. >> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE. PROFESSOR IMANI PERRY, WELCOME TO THE SHOW. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME. >> SO, YOU YOU WERE RAISED IN BIRMINGHAM. THAT'S YOUR HOMETOWN. BIRMINGHAM MAY BE THE MOST SOUTHERN OF ALL CITIES. YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF CITIES IN HERE THAT VIE FOR THAT TITLE, BUT WHY DID YOU DECIDE YOU HAD GO BACK TO THE SOUTH TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENING TO AMERICA TODAY? >> YEAH. THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION. I WAS BORN IN BIRMINGHAM AND ACTUALLY RAISED IN MASSACHUSETTS AND WENT BACK AND FORTH MY WHOLE LIFE. AND SO I LIVED WITH THIS KIND OF INTENSE SENSE THAT PEOPLE HAD STUCK BIRMINGHAM BACK IN 1963 AND YET FOR ME IT WAS HOME, IT WAS THIS LIVING BEAUTIFUL PLACE. AND I THINK THAT THAT'S ACTUALLY CHARACTERISTIC OF HOW THE SOUTH IS UNDERSTOOD. YOU KNOW, IT'S FROZEN. IT'S OFTEN DEPICTED WITH ALL OF THESE STEREOTYPES AS A PLACE THAT IS BACKWARDS AND PARTICULARLY RACIST AND VIOLENT, AND ALL OF THESE DEPICTIONS THAT ACTUALLY CONFUSE US AS TO THE CENTRALITY OF THE SOUTH IN THE NATIONAL CULTURE AND ALSO THE WAY THAT IT SHAPES OUR DOINGS AND THE WAY IT -- IN MANY WAYS IT'S THE CUTTING EDGE. SO WE HAVE THESE CYCLES OF POLITICAL CONFLICT AND TENSION, AND I THINK GOING TO THE SOUTH ACTUALLY HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHO WE ARE AS A NATION. >> DO YOU THINK THE SOUTH IS MORE RACIST THAN THE NORTH HAVING LIVE IN THE BOTH PLACES? >> NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT. I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS THERE'S A PALPABILITY TO THE HISTORY OF RACE AND RACIAL VIOLENCE, RIGHT, AND SLAVERY IN THE SOUTH, AND IT PARTIALLY IS A RESULT OF THE INTIMACY THAT EXISTS ACROSS THE COLOR LINE. PEOPLE ARE UP CLOSE EACH OTHER. WE TALK TO EACH OTHER, WE OCCUPY THE SAME SPACE IN WAYS THAT ARE DIFFERENT. WE FORGET THERE'S ACTUALLY MORE SEGREGATION IN MANY NORTHERN CITIES. SO, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T AVOID THE LANDSCAPE. I MOVE THROUGH THIS LANDSCAPE, AND YOU CAN'T AVOID WHAT HAPPENS IN THE PAST IN THE SOUTH, AND SO THERE'S AN AWARENESS OF THE POLITICS OF RACE IN A VERY IMMEDIATE WAY, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S MORE RACIST. IN FACT, I THINK THE SOUTH, AS THE ORIGIN POINT OF THE COUNTRY, HAS GUIDED THE REST OF US ON -- YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE IN THIS VARIOUS PLACES ABOUT WHAT RACE IS. IT SET THE TONE, AS IT WERE, WHICH IS PART OF WHY YOU HAVE TO GO THERE TO ADDRESS RACE AND RACISM. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN STORY AND START WITH THE MOST AMAZING CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, YOUR GRANDMOTHER, SO I THINK YOU SAY IS THE SMARTEST PERSON YOU EVER KNEW. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> SHE NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE, BUT HAD 12 KIDS THAT WENT TO COLLEGE, RIGHT? >> YES. >> TELL ME ABOUT HER. >> MY GRANDMOTHER, SHE READ THE PAPER EVERY DAY. SHE WAS RESILIENT AND RESOURCEFUL, SO SHE FIGURED OUT HOW TO GET 12 CHILDREN COMING OUT OF BOMBINGHAM, COMING OUT OF THE SEGREGATED SOUTH TO COLLEGE. AND SHE HAD THIS KIND OF DILIGENCE AND INCREDIBLE DIGNITY AND CURIOSITY AND ALSO A DEFIANT DISPOSITION, YOU KNOW. WE LEARNED SELF-REGARD FROM HER, WE LEARNED RITUALS THAT WERE AN ASSERTION THAT WE WERE OF VALUE. WE LEARNED THE ABILITY TO SPEAK UP WHEN WE FELT THAT WE WERE BEING TREATED UNFAIRLY. SO I HAVE OFTEN SAID, AND I MEAN THIS WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING, THAT SHE IS AT THE CENTER OF ALL THE INTELLECTUAL WORK I DO, MY WORK AS A WRITER, BECAUSE I AM LOOKING THROUGH THE LENS OF HER LIFE AS SOMEONE WHO WAS A DOMESTIC, AS SOMEONE WHO WAS BORN IN THE RURAL SOUTH, AS SOMEONE WHO FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE WONDERFUL THINGS HAPPEN FOR HER CHILDREN. YOU KNOW, THAT'S MY MODEL AND THAT'S MY WAY OF VIEWING AND UNDERSTANDING THE WORLD. YOU KNOW, SHE'S -- SO SHE'S AT THE CENTER OF IT ALL. >> AND YOUR MOTHER BECAME AMONG OTHER THINGS A POLITICAL ACTIVIST BOTH HERE IN NEW ORLEANS AND OTHER PLACES. TELL ME ABOUT HER. >> I WOULD SAY -- SO, MY MOTHER IS INCREDIBLY CEREBRAL. SHE IS A READER AND A THINKER AND A PASSIONATE INTELLECTUAL. SHE DEVOTED HER LIFE NOT JUST TO THE SOCIAL MOVEMENT, BUT BEING AN EDUCATOR. SHE'S RETIRED NOW, STILL SHE HAS SOME MENTEES. HER JOURNEY, INCLUDING IN NEW ORLEANS, HAVING BEEN AT THE HOLY SISTERS FAMILY AND BECOMING A POLITICAL ORGANIZER IN BIRMINGHAM AND MILWAUKEE IS ABOUT FINDING MEANING. I LEARNED FROM HER THE SENSE THAT ONE'S LIFE IS SUPPOSED TO BE MEANINGFUL AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DEDICATE YOUR INTELLECT AND ENERGY AND RESOURCES TO MAKING THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE. SO SHE'S VERY MUCH MY GRANDMOTHER'S CHILD AND VERY MUCH SOMEONE WHO SET THE STAGE FOR MY LIFE AS WELL. >> DO YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING BOTH IN THE SOUTH AND HOW THAT'S AFFECTING THE REST OF THE NATION WHERE THERE SEEMS TO BE A BACKLASH AGAINST THE PROGRESS WE HAVE HAD? >> I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IT'S SORT OF, LIKE, PROGRESS AND RETRENCHMENT. IT'S THE DANCE. IT'S ALWAYS -- WE'RE ALWAYS IN THIS TUG OF WAR, THIS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN SORT OF THE VALUES TO BE COMPLETELY BLUNT ABOUT IT, THE VALUES OF A SLAVE SOCIETY AND THE IDEALS OF DEMOCRACY AND LIBERTY. RIGHT? THIS IS A REPEATED CYCLE THAT WE ARE AT TENSION WITH, AND THAT'S WHERE WE STARTED. RIGHT. WE STARTED WITH THIS GORGEOUS LANDSCAPE, THIS VAST ARRAY OF HUMAN BEINGS, AND ALSO A SOCIAL ORDER THAT EXCLUDED MANY, IF NOT MOST OF THEM. SO WE'RE IN THAT MOMENT AGAIN, AND IT IS A STRUGGLE THAT MUST CONTINUE. SO I'M ALWAYS CONCERNED. BUT I ALSO BELIEVE IN THE VISION OF THE BELOVED COMMUNITY, AND THAT IS THE THING THAT SORT OF MAKES ME THINK -- WE CONTINUE TO INVEST IN IT, RIGHT? AND SAY, WE'RE STILL HERE. WE'RE HERE, NOTWITHSTANDING ALL OF THE THINGS THAT COULD HAVE TAKEN US OUT, AND I'M SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT BLACK FOLKS, BUT ALSO POOR FOLKS. EVERYBODY WHO WAS AMONG THE SUFFERING, WHO PUT THEIR LABOR TO THIS PLACE AND DIDN'T GET THAT MUCH IN RETURN, WE'RE STILL HERE. >> YOU SAY YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BLACK FOLKS, ALSO POOR FOLKS. DO YOU FEEL THERE'S ALMOST A BOND AMONG SOUTHERNERS, WHITE AND BLACK, THAT THEY UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER FROM HAVING LIVED SO CLOSE IN PROXIMITY? >> ABSOLUTELY. THERE'S AN INTIMACY. THERE'S A BOND. AND I TALK ABOUT THIS AT MANY POINTS IN THE BOOK. RIGHT, ONE MOMENT I'M RIDING AROUND IN A LYFT, RIGHT, A RIDE SHARE, WITH A WHITE MAN WHO'S ELDERLY WHO SPENT 30 YEARS IN THE MINES, RIGHT. AND SO DEEP IN THE MINES LABORING AND IS NOW MAKING A LIVING WITH THE SORT OF PIECEMEAL WORK OF DRIVING FOLKS AROUND. AND BEING ABLE TO SEE HIM AND ALSO KNOW THAT THERE IS A TENSION THERE, RIGHT? BECAUSE RACE DID STRUCTURE SOCIAL RELATIONS, BUT I ALSO CAN SEE HIM, RIGHT? I CAN UNDERSTAND SOMETHING ABOUT HIS JOURNEY. IT'S A POINT OF GREAT POTENTIAL, RIGHT? BECAUSE IF WE CAN TRANSCEND THE IDEOLOGIES OF RACE AND SUPERIORITY AND INFERIORITY, THE IDEAS, THAT INTIMACY HAS GREAT POWER, AND IT CONTINUES TO EXIST, EVEN THOUGH THE RESISTANCE TO IT CONTINUES TO EXIST. SO THAT'S PART OF -- THAT IS PART OF THE STRUGGLE. >> LET ME READ A BEAUTIFUL PASSAGE FROM YOUR BOOK. AT MOMENT OF CRISIS IT ALWAYS MAKES SENSE TO RETURN TO THE PAST TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT IF THE ARRANGEMENT OF WHAT IS REMEMBERED AND WHAT IS FORGOTTEN OR WHAT IS RETAINED AND WHAT HAS BEEN THROWN AWAY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. >> YES. >> HOW CAN THIS BOOK HELP US UNDERSTAND HOW WE CAN WORK THROUGH THE TENSIONS TODAY? >> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S A HOPE. I ALWAYS THINK ABOUT HISTORY IN THIS WAY. HISTORY IS COMPOSED OF THOUSANDS OF FACTS, RIGHT? IT'S LIKE MAPMAKING. SO THERE'S THIS CONCEPT IN MAPMAKING --'S PARADOX. IF YOU PUT EVERYTHING ON THE MAP, THE MAP IS TOO BIG. YOU CAN'T USE IT. HISTORY IS TOO BIG. WE TAKE CHOICES. I THINK THE ME, THE CHALLENGE IS TO MAKE CHOICES TO TEND TO THAT WHICH IS USUALLY NEGLECTED, TO BE HONEST AND NOT MYTHOLOGICAL. AND SO WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO IS MOVE US SOMEWHAT IN THAT DIRECTION WITH THE HOPE THAT IF WE ARE ATTENDANT TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND PLACES WE'LL BE MOVED PERHAPS TO ACT FOR TENDER WILL I -- ACT MORE TENDERLY AND JUST AND KIND. WE DON'T TALK ABOUT HISTORY IN THAT WAY ENOUGH, BUT IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. WE PLACE OUR ATTENTION AND CARE WHERE WE DECIDE THINGS MATTER. AND I THINK THE HUMAN CONDITION MATTERS. >> AMONG THE PLACES YOU VISITED WAS HARPER'S FERRY, EVEN MET A CONFEDERATE RE-ENACTOR. SOMEBODY RE-ENACTING THINGS THERE. TELL ME, HOW DID YOU -- WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF SOMEBODY DOING CONFEDERATE REENACTING? >> I WOULD SAY THIS. I COULDN'T -- IT WAS FRUSTRATING TO ME. I WAS LIKE, WHY DOES THIS PERSON WANT TO BE A CONFEDERATE? BUT ALSO WHAT RESONATED WITH ME IS HE WANTED TO BE INSIDE HISTORY. AND WE WERE THE SAME IN THAT WAY. YOU KNOW, HE WAS AN ARCHIVIST. HE VOLUNTEERS AT HARPER'S FERRY. WE WENT THROUGH THE RITUALS OF REENACTMENT, WHICH IS COMPLEX. AND IT IS A FORM OF PLAY ACTING, BUT IT'S ALSO A WAY TO LIVE IN CONNECTION WITH THE PAST, AND I'M ENGAGED IN THE SAME PROCESS. I MADE OF IT, WE ARE SHAPED BY OUR HISTORIES, AND WE -- THERE'S SOMETHING USEFUL ABOUT BEING AWARE OF IT. BUT I ALSO -- AND THIS WAS A BIG -- THIS WAS PERHAPS THE BIGGEST POINT FOR ME. I REALIZED SLOWLY THAT MARYLAND IS THE SOUTH THROUGH HIM, BECAUSE HE WAS PART OF THE MARYLAND REGIMENT. I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY. THAT WAS PART OF THE DISCOVERY OF THE BOOK. >> WHEN PLESSI V. FERGUSON WAS RULED IN THE LATE 1800s, SUDDENLY THERE'S A COLOR LINE THAT GETS DRAWN, AND THAT COLOR LINE HAD NOT BEEN SO SHARP, ESPECIALLY IN PLACES LIKE NEW ORLEANS, BEFORE THAT. THERE WAS A LOT OF MOVING BACK AND FORTH. TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK HISTORICALLY THAT MEANT TO THE SOUTH AND MEANT TO THE NATION, AND COULD IT HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE? >> SO, IT ABSOLUTELY COULD HAVE BEEN OTHERWISE, RIGHT? THERE ARE -- THERE WERE PLACES -- NEW ORLEANS IS ONE, BUT ALSO WILMINGTON, NORTH CAROLINA -- WHERE THERE WERE -- YOU KNOW, THAT EMERGED IN THE POST EMANCIPATION CONTEXT AS PLACES WHERE THERE COULD BE A MULTIRACIAL DEMOCRACY. THEY WERE FEW, THROUGH THEY WERE POSSIBILITIES. WHAT PLESSY DID WAS IT FORMALLY INSTITUTED A STRUCTURE OF RACIAL HIERARCHY, RIGHT, WHICH WAS -- BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH INTIMACY BETWEEN BLACK AND WHITE FOLKS IN THE SOUTH, IT MIGHT HAVE -- THE MORE YOU OPENED UP THE SOCIETY DIDN'T HAVE RULES ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE COULD BE. THERE WAS NO LONGER THE SLAVE/FREE DISDISTINCTION. SOMETHING ELSE MIGHT HAVE EMERGED. I ALSO THINK PLESSY IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, CREOLES IN NEW ORLEANS WHO DIDN'T NECESSARILY IDENTIFY THEMSELVES WITH BLACK PEOPLE, ALTHOUGH HAD BLACK ANCESTRY, MADE A POLITICAL DECISION IN THE COMMITTEE AND ORGANIZING AROUND PLESSY TO POLITICALLY IDENTIFY WITH BLACK AMERICANS IN GENERAL AND TO SEE THEMSELVES AS A COLLECTIVE FORCE. AND I THINK THAT'S AN INTERESTING PIECE, TOO, BECAUSE POST PLESSY IN, THIS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT PERIOD IN AMERICAN HISTORY, BLACK AMERICANS ORGANIZED POLITICALLY ACROSS CULTURAL DIFFERENCES. AND THERE ARE CULTURES, PLURAL, IN THE SOUTH. IN EXTRAORDINARY WAYS AND BUILT CIVIC ASSOCIATIONS AND SCHOOLS AND BUILT KIND OF A PUBLIC LIFE BEHIND THE VEIL. IT WAS BOTH A DEVASTATING PERIOD BUT AN EXTRAORDINARY PERIOD. >> IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT -- WHEN YOU GET TO NEW ORLEANS NEAR THE END, YOU SAY IT'S, QUOTE, THE MOST EUROPEAN OF OUR CITIES. THEN YOU SAY IT'S ALSO THE MOST AFRICAN OF OUR CITIES. THEN YOU ALSO CONCLUDE IT'S THE MOST AMERICAN OF OUR CITIES. EXPLAIN THIS COMPLEX LAYERING THAT YOU FOUND THERE. >> RIGHT. WELL, THIS IS AGAIN A POINT ABOUT A PLACE, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU WALK THROUGH AND HISTORY IS EVER PRESENT, AND THE HISTORY OF THIS PLACE IS ALL OF THOSE THINGS. YOU KNOW, IT IS INDIGENOUS, IT IS EUROPEAN, IT IS AFRICAN, IT IS THE ENCOUNTER. YOU CAN'T MOVE THROUGH THE CITY WITHOUT BEING VERY AWARE OF THE CYCLES OF IMMIGRATION, MIGRATION, FORCED MIGRATION. AND THAT IS THE STORY OF THE NATION RIGHT? SO SOMETIMES WHEN PEOPLE SAY, OKAY, THE HEARTLAND IS IN THE CENTER OF THE COUNTRY, AND I JUST -- I RESIST THAT BECAUSE I CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENED. THE WHOLE STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW ORLEANS. YOU KNOW, AS A PORT CITY, AS A PLACE PEOPLE LEFT FROM, IT'S A PLACE CONNECTED TO THE CARIBBEAN, A PEOPLE CAME AND WENT IN CYCLES. IT'S THERE. ALL OF IT. AND SO THE UNITED STATES IS EUROPEAN, INDIGENOUS, AFRICAN, INCREASINGLY ASIAN, LATIN AMERICAN, AND THAT'S WHO'S IN NEW ORLEANS. AND THAT'S WHERE YOU -- THAT'S WHAT YOU MOVE THROUGH IN NEW ORLEANS. >> YOU MAKE A FINAL STOP IN THE BOOK, HOUSTON, BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING BACK TO SEE GEORGE FLOYD HAD BEEN KILLED, MURDERED IN MINNEAPOLIS, BUT HE'S A SOUTHERNER FROM HOUSTON. YOU GO THERE, AND YOU SAY IT BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE PLACE WHERE I FIRST BEGAN. MEANING WHERE I FIRST BEGAN WITH THIS BOOK. HOW SO? HOW WAS IT IMPORTANT TO END UNDERSTANDING WHAT HAD HAPPENED AROUND GEORGE FLOYD -- WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO GEORGE FLOYD AND WHAT IT HAD BROUGHT? >> THERE'S SOMETHING POWERFUL ABOUT HOW IN THE MIDST OF THE PANDEMIC THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD WAS QUIET AND LISTENED TO GEORGE FLOYD'S SCREAMS. AND THAT THAT IS IN SOME SENSE A KIND OF SOUND THAT HAS -- THE FOUNDATIONAL TERROR IN THIS COUNTRY FOR BLACK PEOPLE. IT'S NOT AS THOUGH GOING NORTH WAS AN ESCAPE, RIGHT? IT WAS ACTUALLY A SITE WHERE VIOLENCE COULD CHASE YOU TO. AND I WAS THINKING A LOT ABOUT HOUSTON AS, AGAIN, ONE OF THESE INCREDIBLY COSMOPOLITAN CITIES AS THE PATHWAY OUT TO THE WEST COAST, THE I-10, TAKING THE I-10, AND THE WAY IN WHICH HE TRIED TO RUN FROM WHAT IT WAS, BUT WHAT IT WAS IS WHAT IT IS, AND -- AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS HARROWING AND IT WAS ALSO BEAUTIFUL THE WAY THAT THE WORLD RESPONDED. THERE WAS A MOMENT OF HOPE THERE. AND SO, YOU KNOW, THOSE MOMENTS ARE WHAT WE HOLD ONTO. >> PROFESSOR IMANI PERRY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.