Amanpour and Company

WITH SOME MORE OF THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF JIMMY CARTER WITH PULITZER PRIZE WINNER KAI BIRD.

YOU WILL REMEMBER HIM FROM HIS OPPENHEIMER BIOGRAPHY, TURNED INTO A NUMBER ONE FILM.

HIS BOOK ABOUT CARTER IS CALLED "THE OUTLIER," REGARDING THE POST-CIVIL WAR SOUTH, AND THAT SHAPED CARTER'S VIEWS ON POLITICS.

HEARD DISCUSSED THIS WITH WALTER ISAACSON AND THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW CARTER'S POST- PRESIDENCY LEGACY STEROID SWORD.

>> WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER WAS BORN JUST TWO GENERATIONS AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

IN HIS MEMOIR, HE HAS THIS WONDERFUL LINE.

HE SAYS, I GREW UP IN ONE OF THOSE FAMILIES WHOSE PEOPLE CANNOT FORGET THAT WE HAD BEEN CONQUERED, IN OTHER WORDS, THE SOUTH HAD BEEN CONQUERED BY THE NORTH.

WHILE MOST OF OUR NEIGHBORS WERE BLACK PEOPLE WHOSE GRANDPARENTS HAD BEEN LIBERATED IN THAT SAME CONFLICT.

HOW DID THAT AFFECT HIM?

>> WALTER, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I KNOW THAT COMES RIGHT OUT OF HIS CHILDHOOD MEMOIR.

THAT CAPTURES HIS WHOLE LIFE'S STORY, IN A SENSE, IN THAT HE REALLY GREW UP IN THE SOUTHERN CULTURE THAT WAS DRENCHED IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT HIS PEOPLE HAD BEEN DEFEATED, THEY HAD KNOWN DEFEAT AND OCCUPATION.

HE, AS AN ADULT, SOUTHERN WHITE MAN, HE WAS AWARE OF AMERICA'S LIMITS.

HE WAS AWARE THAT THERE COULD BE DEFEAT.

IT MADE HIM VERY PRAGMATIC, AND DOWN TO EARTH.

OF COURSE, HE GREW UP IN ARCHERY, THIS LITTLE HAMLET TWO MILES DOWN THE ROAD FROM PLAINS.

INDEED, HE WAS VIRTUALLY THE ONLY LITTLE WHITE BOY THERE AND ALL OF HIS PLAYMATES WERE AFRICAN AMERICANS.

THAT TOO GAVE HIM A DIFFERENT SENSIBILITY AS AN AMERICAN.

IT MADE HIM A SOUTHERN, WHITE LIBERAL INSTINCTIVELY AND EXTREMELY COMFORTABLE IN HIS OWN SKIN AROUND AFRICAN AMERICANS AND BLACK SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCHES.

SO, THAT IS JIMMY CARTER.

>> YOU LOOK AT HIS FATHER.

HIS FATHER HAD LOTS OF LAND, SHARECROPPERS, BLACK SHARECROPPERS ME BUT HE WAS QUITE THE WHITE SUPREMACIST.

HOW COME JIMMY CARTER DID NOT END UP THAT WAY?

>> MS. LILLIAN.

HIS MOTHER WAS BEING COUNTERBALANCED TO HIS VERY RACIST FATHER, WHO WAS A VERY CONVENTIONAL WHITE, SOUTHERN MAN IN SOUTH GEORGIA.

MS. LILLIAN WAS JUST A DIFFERENT SENSIBILITY.

SHE WAS HER OWN INDEPENDENT SPIRIT.

SHE BECAME A NURSE.

JIMMY WAS BORN IN THE HOSPITAL IN PLAINS, THE FIRST AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO BE BORN IN A HOSPITAL.

SHE WAS JUST THE OPPOSITE OF HER HUSBAND.

SHE ENCOURAGED HER SON TO PLAY WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SHE ALLOWED THEM IN THE HOUSE.

SHE MADE VISITS TO AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SHE WAS A DEMOCRAT.

AND LATER IN LIFE, SHE WENT AROUND PLAINS SHOCKING HER NEIGHBORS BY SAYING GOOD THINGS ABOUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN, JUST TO BE PROVOCATIVE.

SO, JIMMY GREW UP WITH THIS CONTRARIAN MOTHER, AND IT GAVE HIM A STREAK OF INDEPENDENCE.

>> IF HE WAS SO MUCH OF A LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE, ESPECIALLY ON ISSUES OF RACE COMING FROM HIS MOTHER, HOW COME HE WASN'T INVOLVED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF THE 60s?

>> HE WAS EXTREMELY CLEVER AND PRAGMATIC.

JUST IN THOSE EARLY YEARS, HE KEPT HIS HEAD DOWN.

HE COULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE, FOR INSTANCE, TO MEET MARTIN LUTHER KING JUNIOR, BUT HE NEVER DID.

HE QUIETLY WENT ABOUT HIS OWN BUSINESS, AND IN 1962, DECIDED SUDDENLY ON THE SPUR OF THE MOMENT TO RUN FOR A STATE SENATOR SEAT.

WON.

HE KEPT HIS HEAD DOWN EVEN THEN.

>> WHY DID HE RUN FOR STATE SENATE?

>> I THINK HE WAS BORED WITH HIS BUSINESS.

HE TURNED THE FAMILY PEANUT FARM AND WAREHOUSE, REALLY SORT OF A SMALL BUSINESS COMPANY SELLING FERTILIZER AND PEANUT SEEDS.

HE TURNED IT INTO QUITE A SUCCESS AND HE WAS BORED.

JIMMY CARTER WAS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MOST INTELLIGENT, AND OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE MOST DECENT MAN TO OCCUPY THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE WAS VERY INTELLIGENT, WELL READ.

>> WASN'T HE BOTH AMBITIOUS AND HAD A DRIVING RELIGIOUS FAITH?

DIDN'T THAT HELP HIM GET INTO PUBLIC LIFE?

>> THAT TOO IS A CONTRADICTION.

HE WAS EXTREMELY AMBITIOUS.

IN 1966, HE RAN FOR GOVERNOR AND LOST TO A SEGREGATIONIST, AN ARDENT SEGREGATIONIST NAMED LESTER MATTIS.

THAT LED TO SORT OF A CRISIS OF FAITH.

IT LED TO WHAT HE LATER DESCRIBED AS A BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE, BUT THERE WAS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN HIS AMBITION, AND HIS FAITH.

AS A SOUTHERN BAPTIST, YOU ARE TAUGHT THAT REALLY THE GREATEST SIN IS THAT OF PRIDE.

JIMMY CARTER HAD A LOT OF PRIDE.

HE ALWAYS KNEW HE WAS THE SMARTEST BOY IN HIS CLASS, SMARTEST GUY IN THE ROOM.

HE KNEW THAT THAT WAS A SIN.

HE RECONCILED IT BY MAKING THE ARGUMENT, BORROWING FROM A LIBERAL NORTHERN THEOLOGIAN, THE NOTION THAT THE WORLD IS FULL OF SIN AND NEEDS TO BE REFORMED, AND POLITICS IS NECESSARY.

SO, HE TOLD HIMSELF, I WILL DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO GET ELECTED, AND THEN I WILL USE THAT POWER TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

>> BUT YOU SAID, HE WOULD DO WHATEVER HE COULD TO GET ELECTED.

I REMEMBER GROWING UP IN THE SOUTH, AND YOU TALK ABOUT JIMMY CARTER BEING HUMILIATED BY A LOSS FOR GOVERNOR TO LESTER MADDOX, THE SEGREGATIONIST.

WHEN THAT HAPPENED IN THE SOUTH, PEOPLE WENT ONE OF TWO WAYS.

GEORGE WALLACE, THAT HAPPENED TO HIM, AND HE SAID, I WILL NEVER BE, AND HE USED SOME SLURS , AND DECIDED TO GO AND BE A VERY SEGREGATIONIST.

JIMMY CARTER GOES THE OTHER WAY, SO DO A FEW OTHER PEOPLE.

WHAT CAUSES THAT FORT IN THE ROAD?

>> HE WAS DESPERATE TO GET ELECTED, TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO POWER.

WHEN HE NEXT RAN FOR GOVERNOR IN 1970 HE REALLY DID ENGAGE IN SOME DOG WHISTLES.

HE WOULD GO AND CAMPAIGN IN BLACK CHURCHES, BUT HE ALSO WENT TO A SMALL TOWN, SMALL TOWNS IN NORTHERN GEORGIA, DEFENDED THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO PRIVATE, WHITE ACADEMIES.

THAT WAS A DOG WHISTLE.

HE WON THE ELECTION, AND THEN TURNED AROUND, HAVING ONE POWER ON HIS VERY FIRST DAY WHEN HE WAS INAUGURATED, HE TURNS AROUND AND PROCLAIMS THE TIME FOR RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN THE SOUTH IS OVER.

PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED ON THE PLATFORM.

THEY FELT BETRAYED, SOME OF HIS CONSTITUENTS, BUT HE WENT ON TO DO THE SAME THING, I WOULD ARGUE , WHEN HE WON THE WHITE HOUSE.

HIS WHOLE APPROACH TO POLITICS INSIDE THE OVAL OFFICE WAS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO EDUCATE HIMSELF AS INTELLIGENTLY AS HE COULD.

LOOK AT WHAT HE DID WITH THE MIDDLE EAST.

I THINK THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT THAT IS NOT OFTEN MADE THAT, YOU KNOW, CAMP DAVID WAS THE SCENE OF HIS GREATEST TRIUMPH, HIS PERSONAL DIPLOMACY BROUGHT EGYPT AND ISRAEL TOGETHER.

YET, CARTER ALSO BELIEVED HE'D GOTTEN A WIDER PEACE SETTLEMENT AND AGREEMENT FROM ISRAEL BEGGING HIM TO GO ON AND COMMIT TO A FIVE-YEAR FREEZE ON THE SETTLEMENT, THE JEWISH SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK.

AND THEN, REAGAN TURNED AROUND AND RENEGED WITHIN DAYS, ACCORDING TO CARTER.

CARTER ALWAYS BELIEVED HE'D HAD A LARGER AGREEMENT.

THIS IS WHY FOR DECADES AFTERWARDS, DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, AND AFTERWARDS, HE VERY CONTROVERSY EARLY DID WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO AND SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE SETTLEMENTS, POINTING OUT THAT THERE WOULD BE AN OBSTACLE TWO STATE SOLUTION.

THEN, HE WENT A STEP FURTHER, NO ONE WAS LISTENING TO HIM, HE WROTE A BOOK IN 2006 CALLED, "PALESTINE PEACE NOT APARTHEID. "

BY USING THAT WORD, APARTHEID, HE KNEW HE WAS BEING PROVOCATIVE.

AND HE GOT A LOT OF CRITICISM.

PEOPLE RESIGNED FROM THE CARTER CENTER.

IT WAS VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

IT TOOK A LOT OF COURAGE TO DO THAT.

I WOULD ARGUE, LOOKING BACK ALL THESE MANY YEARS LATER A LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IS GOING DOWN A PATH THAT IS LEADING TOWARD ANNEXATION AND ESSENTIALLY AN APARTHEID -LIKE STATE.

AND JIMMY CARTER, YOU KNOW, PREDICTED THIS.

THAT IS A VERY TOUGH THING FOR HIM TO HAVE DONE, AND I THINK YOU CAN SEE HIM DOING-- TAKING SIMILAR STANDS ON ALL SORTS OF ISSUES, FROM RACE, TO CLIMATE CHANGE, TO THE VERY DIFFICULT DECISION HE MADE TO A POINT PAUL VOLCKER TO THE FED AT A TIME WHEN INFLATION WAS RAGING.

HE KNEW PAULA BOOKER PAUL VOLCKER WAS GOING TO CHECK OUT THE RATES AND MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR HIS REELECTION CAMPAIGN IN 1980, BUT CARTER DID IT.

HE IS AN EXTRAORDINARY POLITICIAN.

HE IS REALLY NOT A POLITICIAN.

HE IS SORT OF A SPIRITUAL LEADER WHO CAME TO APPLY HIS POLITICS TO OVAL OFFICE.

A VERY UNUSUAL PRESIDENCY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THAT SPIRITUAL QUALITY OF HIM.

EXPLAIN WHAT WE SOMETIMES CALL THE MALAISE SPEECH, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T THINK THAT WORD WAS USED IN IT.

IT READS MORE LIKE A SERMON THAN A SPEECH.

WAS HE THINKING HE WAS IN A PULPIT STATEMENT ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS WHAT HE WAS THINKING.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY SPEECH.

I URGE PEOPLE TO LOOK IT UP.

IT IS VERY UNUSUAL, VERY IMPRESSIONABLE TO READ IT TODAY.

IT IS TALKING ABOUT A CRISIS IN AMERICA, IN A SPIRITUAL SENSE.

HE WAS RAILING AGAINST WHAT HE CALLED THE CULTURE OF NARCISSISM , RAILING AGAINST THE NOTION THAT AMERICANS TOO OFTEN THOUGHT THEY COULD FIND HAPPINESS AND WELL-BEING IN SELF-INDULGENCE AND CONSUMPTION THIS IS NOT THE USUAL THING AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT WILL USUALLY TALK ABOUT.

WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO GET AT WAS, THE CONFLICT BETWEEN TWO ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES IN AMERICAN LIFE, OUR COMMITMENT TO THE FREEDOM OF THE INDIVIDUAL , WHICH IS VERY POWERFUL IN AMERICA, HISTORICALLY, BUT ALSO, OUR COMMITMENT TO COMMUNITY.

CARTER ALWAYS BELIEVED, IN A VERY RELIGIOUS SENSE, YOU CANNOT HAVE PERSONAL FREEDOM WITHOUT COMMUNITY.

HE, I THINK, GOT THIS IN PART FROM HIS CHILDHOOD GROWING UP IN ARCHERY AND PLANES PLAINS, SMALL-TOWN SENSIBILITY.

HE THOUGHT THAT AMERICA IN THE 70s WAS DRIFTING AWAY FROM ITS COMMITMENT TO COMMUNITY.

AND THAT SPEECH WAS REALLY TOUGH , AND I WOULD ARGUE, PROPHETIC.

HE WAS OFTEN THOUGHT OF A PROFIT IN THE WILDERNESS, AGAIN, NOT MUCH OF A POLITICIAN.

HE IGNORED THE POLITICS.

THIS WAS NOT A POPULAR THING TO SAY, ALTHOUGH HE GOT A NICE BUMP IN THE POLLS FOR ABOUT 10 DAYS.

TODAY, IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE ASTONISHING, PARTICULARLY SINCE WE HAVE DONALD TRUMP, WHO SORT OF EMBODIES THE NOTION OF NARCISSISM.

DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT TO WALK BACK INTO THE OVAL OFFICE, SO IT IS IRONY THAT NARCISSISM HAS TRIUMPHED.

JIMMY CARTER WOULD ARGUE THAT THIS IS SOMETHING TO REGRET.

>> YOU SAY, HE WAS THE MOST DECENT MAN TO BE IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

THERE WAS BOTH A DECENCY , AND A SENSE OF CHARACTER, IN SOME WAYS, A CHARACTER SINCE, ALMOST HOLIER THAN THOU, BUT HE WAS SO DEDICATED TO THAT IDEA THAT CHARACTER COUNTS, THAT YOU DON'T LIE.

COULD SOMEBODY LIKE THAT BE ELECTED NOW?

OR IS THAT SEEN AS A WEAKNESS THESE DAYS?

>> WELL, WE ARE ABOUT TO FIND OUT WITH THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, WITH DONALD TRUMP.

YOU KNOW, HISTORY WORKS WITH A PENDULUM.

MAYBE THE PENDULUM WILL SWING BACK AFTER HAVING A NARCISSIST, WHO REALLY DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE FACTS VERY OFTEN.

JIMMY CARTER CAMPAIGNED IN 1976, FAMOUSLY SAYING, I WILL NEVER LIE TO YOU.

YOU KNOW, SKEPTICS WERE A LITTLE CYNICAL ABOUT THAT.

HIS OWN, PERSONAL LAWYER, CHARLIE COBLE, TURNED TO AN AID WHEN HE HEARD CARTER HAD MADE THIS A PART OF HIS STUMP SPEECH, I WILL NEVER LIE TO YOU.

COBLE TURNED AND SAID, THERE GOES THE LIAR VOTE.

[ LAUGHTER ] BUT CARTER, YOU KNOW, WAS A VERY DECENT MAN.

HE TRIED NOT TO LIE.

HE TRIED TO DO THE RIGHT THING, REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES.

HE HAD NO SEX SCANDALS IN HIS LIFE, CERTAINLY NOT DURING THE PRESIDENCY.

THERE WAS NO FINANCIAL CORRUPTION, AND HE KEPT THE PEACE.

HE DID NOT SEND AMERICAN TROOPS INTO WAR.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY RECORD, AND A PERSONAL ONE, AND HIS PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND BEING DECENT.

I THINK IT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE WILL GRAVITATE TOWARD IN THE FUTURE.

HIS REPUTATION, HISTORICALLY, I THINK IS GOING TO RISE.

AND YOU KNOW, AMERICANS MAY SOMEDAY REALIZE THEY WOULD ACTUALLY LIKE TO HAVE IN THE OVAL OFFICE SOMEONE WHO RISES AT 5:30 IN THE MORNING, GETS INTO THE OVAL OFFICE BY 6:30, AND SPENDS 12 HOURS WORKING VERY HARD, TRYING TO READ 300 PAGES OF MEMOS EVERY DAY AND PAY ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS.

WE OUGHT TO VALUE A PRESIDENT WHO WORKS HARD, AND IS DECENT, AND NEVER LIES TO US.

>> KAI BIRD, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU WALTER.