Amanpour and Company

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

ISRAEL ANNOUNCED AN EMERGENCY GOVERNMENT AS IT MUSTERS ITS TROOPS ON THE BORDER WITH GAZA, AMID REPORTS OF HEZBOLLAH INFILTRATION FROM THE NORTH.

THEN, AS THE HORRORS OF THE HAMAS ATTACK COME INTO STARK CLARITY, I SPEAK TO A WOUNDED SURVIVOR OF THE FESTIVAL MASSACRE, WHO SAYS HIS FRIENDS WERE SHOT IN FRONT OF HIM.

>>> PLUS, I'M JOINED BY MIDDLE EAST EXPERT AND BEST-SELLING AUTHOR KIM GHATTAS, LOOKING AHEAD TO THIS WAR IN LIGHT OF PAINFUL MIDDLE EAST HISTORY.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, LIGHTS OUT IN GAZA, AS ISRAEL'S RETALIATION REDUCES PARTS OF THAT CITY TO RUBBLE.

>>> AND I SPEAK TO A PALESTINIAN WRITER IN GAZA CITY WHO SAYS HIS PREGNANT COUSIN DIED IN THE RECENT STRIKES.

>>> LATER IN THE PROGRAM, MY CONVERSATION WITH GUATEMALA'S PRESIDENT-ELECT ON THE DIM HOPE FOR PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE CRISIS WITH HIS OWN PEOPLE SURGING TO THE U.S. BORDER.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL HAS ANNOUNCED AN EMERGENCY WARTIME GOVERNMENT.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD ANOTHER PHONE CONVERSATION WITH THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, AS THE NATION BUILDS UP ITS MILITARY FORCES ON THE GAZA BORDER.

HERE'S WHAT BIDEN SAID.

>> THIS ATTACK HAS BROUGHT TO THE SURFACE A PAINFUL MEMORY AND SCARS LEFT BY A MILLENNIUM OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

WE HAVE TO BE CRYSTAL CLEAR.

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR TERRORISM.

NO EXCUSE.

AND THE TYPE OF TERRORISM THAT WAS EXHIBITED HERE IS JUST BEYOND THE PALE.

BEYOND THE PALE.

AS I SAID YESTERDAY, MY COMMITMENT TO ISRAEL'S SECURITY AND THE SAFETY OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE IS UNSHAKABLE.

THE UNITED STATES HAS ISRAEL'S BACK, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE WORKING ON THIS ALL THROUGH THE DAY AND BEYOND.

>> SO, AS WE KNOW, HE SENT HIS U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN TO THE REGION.

HE'LL BE LANDING IN ISRAEL TOMORROW.

AND THE ATROS TIPS COMMITTED BY HAMAS ON ISRAELI BORDER COMMUNITIES IS COMING INTO EVER MORE GRISLY FOCUS.

A GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN NOW CONFIRMS REPORTS THAT BABIES AND TODDLERS WERE FOUND WITH, QUOTE, HEADS DECAPITATED IN SOUTHERN ISRAEL.

AT LEAST 1,200 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE ASSAULT, ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI MILITARY.

IN GAZA, LIGHTS HAVE ALL BUT GONE OUT AS THE MAIN POWER PLANT HATZ SHUT DOWN FOR LACK OF FUEL.

AND ISRAEL CONTINUES TO AVENGE ITS DEAD WITH WAVES OF MASSIVE AIR STRIKES.

MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED SO FAR IN GAZA, ACCORDING TO PALESTINIAN HEALTH OFFICIALS THERE.

THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER SAYS HE IS, QUOTE, RELEASED ALL RESTRAINTS ON THE IDF.

MEANTIME, PEOPLE IN NORTHERN ISRAEL NEAR THE LEBANON BORDER ARE BEING ORDERED BY THE IDF TO GO TO BOMB SHELTERS.

AND JOINING ME NOW IS THE IDF SPOKESPERSON JONATHAN CONRICUS.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

CAN YOU CONFIRM TO US FIRST THE FEARS THAT EVERYBODY HAD ABOUT AN EXPANSION OF THIS ATTACK AGAINST ISRAEL?

IS THERE -- HOW -- HOW CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE NORTH AND THE FACT THAT ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN TOLD TO GO TO SHELTERS THERE?

>> YES, HELLO, CHRISTIANE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT IS A COMPLEX AND VERY FLUID SITUATION IN ISRAEL.

WE ARE FIGHTING ON AT LEAST THREE FRONTS.

GAZA, LEBANON, AND THE GOLAN HEIGHTS, SYRIA, AND I CAN INFORM THE ISRAELI PUBLIC THAT THE ALARM THAT SOUNDED WAS RESULT OF AN AERIAL INTRUSION, BUT THAT THERE IS NO CURRENT THREAT TO ISRAELI CIVILIANS, AND THAT THEY CAN EXIT THEIR BOMB SHELTERS.

>> SO, JUST TO BE CLEAR, YOU FEEL THAT IT IS SECURE IN THAT NORTHERN BORDER, AND FURTHER TOWARDS THE WEST BANK, THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK AND THE GOLAN?

>> NO, WHAT I SAID IS, WE ARE IN AN EXTREMELY FLUID AND DYNAMIC SITUATION -- >> RIGHT.

>> WE'RE FIGHTING IN SOUTHERN ISRAEL, THERE ARE CONTINUOUS ATTEMPTS BY HAMAS AND I SUPPOSE THE ISLAMIC JIHAD TO SEND ACROSS TERRORISTS INTO ISRAEL, AND THERE ARE MANY REPORTS OF CLASHES BETWEEN INCOMING TERRORISTS AND ISRAELI TROOPS.

SO FAR, WITH GOOD RESULTS, AND NO ISRAELI CIVILIANS KILLED.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SATURDAY AND TODAY IS THAT NOW SOUTHERN ISRAEL IS SATURATED WITH LOTS OF ISRAELI TROOPS, AND THAT'S WHY THE TERRORISTS ARE NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL CIVILIANS.

ON THE NORTH, ON THE LEBANESE BORDER, THE SITUATION IS VERY TENSE.

ALARMS JUST SOUNDED ALL OVER NORTHERN ISRAEL, AND THE ALL-CLEAR HAS BEEN SOUNDED, YET THE SITUATION REMAINS VOLATILE.

YESTERDAY NIGHT, ROCKETS WERE FIRED, MOST LIKELY BY A PALESTINIAN MILITIA FROM SYRIAN SOIL ONTO ISRAEL.

THEY DID NOT CAUSE ANY DAMAGE, AND WE RESPONDED, RETALIATED WITH FIRE AGAINST.

SO, THERE ARE THREE OPEN FRONTS WHICH ARE ACTIVE, DANGEROUS.

WE ARE DEPLOYED ALONG THEM, MONITORING THE EVENTS AND READY TO RESPOND TO ANY ASSAULT AGAINST ISRAELI SOVEREIGNTY AND CIVILIANS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU THEN, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN ANSWER THIS, BUT TODAY, IT'S BEEN ANNOUNCED INSIDE ISRAEL THAT THERE IS AN EMERGENCY WARTIME GOVERNMENT CABINET.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT THAT'S GOING TO MEAN AS YOU RAMP UP AND BOLSTER FORCES FOR WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE ASSUMES IS GOING TO BE A GROUND OFFENSIVE INTO GAZA?

>> YEAH, IT'S USUALLY WISE FOR A MAN IN UNIFORM TO STAY AWAY FROM POLITICS, BUT I WILL SAY THAT ON THE, LET'S SAY SPIRITUAL LEVEL, OR THE LEVEL OF MORALE AND COHERE SHUN FOR OUR TROOPS, I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE.

I PERSONALLY WELCOME IT.

AND I THINK THAT POLITICAL UNITY REFLECTS WHAT I'VE SEEN ON THE STREETS IN ISRAEL OF AN ACTUAL UNITY, WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOW COMING TOGETHER, SETTING SILLY POLITICAL DIFFERENCES ASIDE AND FOCUSING ON THE TREMENDOUS TASK THAT WE HAVE AHEAD OF US, AND THAT IS DEFEATING A VERY, VERY CRUEL ENEMY IN GAZA.

SO, I HOPE THAT THE POLITICS -- >> CAN I -- >> YEAH, SURE.

>> SORRY, SORRY, I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU ARE IN UNIFORM, YOU ARE A GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN, A MILITARY SPOKESMAN, SO, I NEED TO ASK YOU ABOUT REPORTS FROM THE U.N., SAYING THAT 11 OF ITS STAFFERS WERE KILLED IN THE AIR STRIKES IN GAZA TODAY, AND AS YOU HAVE HEARD, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE MANY VOICES FROM INSIDE GAZA SAYING HOW MUCH ACTUALLY CIVILIANS ALSO ARE BEING CAUGHT UP IN THIS.

WHAT CAN YOU SAY ABOUT THE 11 U.N. DEAD?

>> I THINK ANY CIVILIAN CASUALTY IS REGRETTABLE AND UNFORTUNATE.

AND DEFINITELY NOT SOMETHING THAT WE AIM TO ACHIEVE.

AND THAT'S -- THAT HAS BEEN OUR PRACTICE AND POLICY FOR AS LONG AS I'VE BEEN IN SERVICE AND BEFORE THAT.

HOWEVER, IT MUST BE SAID, AND I KNOW THAT YOU'VE HEARD THIS BEFORE AND THE VIEWERS HAVE HEARD IT, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REPEAT IT, HAMAS HIDES ALL OF ITS INFRASTRUCTURE BEHIND CIVILIANS.

THEY USE THEIR CIVILIANS AS HUMAN SHIELDS.

AND THEY HAVE DESIGNED THEIR ENTIRE OPERATIONAL CONCEPT ON HAVING CIVILIANS BETWEEN THEM AND US.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE ARE TARGETING MILITARY TARGETS, TARGETS THAT ARE QUALIFIED AS PROPERLY LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS UNDERNEATH CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, WE TRY OUR BEST NOT TO STRIKE CIVILIANS, BUT IN SOME CASES, THERE ARE UNFORTUNATE CONSEQUENCES.

I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT WE REMAIN COMMITTED TO THE CONFLICT, WE WILL CONTINUE TO CONDUCT OURSELVES AS SUCH, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT IT IS WE'RE FACING.

THERE'S AN UNDERGROUND CITY UNDERNEATH THE GAZA STRIP, DUG BY HAMAS, OF AN ELABORATE TUNNEL SYSTEM, WHICH ALLOWS HAMAS TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT AS THEY'RE FIRING ROCKETS AND SENDING TERRORISTS INTO ISRAEL.

THEY'RE HIDING BEHIND THEIR CIVILIANS.

>> JONATHAN CONRICUS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, IDF SPOKESPERSON.

WE'RE GOING TO BRING IN THE RETIRED MAJOR GENERAL AND FORMER HEAD OF ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE, AMOS YADLIN.

HE IS ALSO JOINING US FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HEARD WHAT I WAS ASKING THE IDF SPOKESPERSON, AND OBVIOUSLY, IT'S VERY, VERY TOUGH TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO AVENGE THIS MASS MURDER WHILE ALSO, AS HE SAYS, RESPECTING THE LAWS OF WAR, AND ALSO AS PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS SAID, THAT THAT MUST HAPPEN AND ALL YOUR EU AND U.N.

SUPPORTERS, AS WELL.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK, AMOS YADLIN, MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE COMING UP, AS THIS MASSACRES ARE AVENGED, WHEN THEY'VE REMOVED ALL RESTRAINTS FROM THEIR SOLDIERS?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT MEAN?

>> CHRISTIANE, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED ON SATURDAY.

MORE THAN 1,200 OF ISRAELI CITIZENS WERE KILLED BRUTALLY BY THE TERROR ORGANIZATION CALLED HAMAS, AND BY THE WAY, BY CITIZENS FROM GAZA THAT FOLLOW THEM.

IT WAS A PROGRAM.

PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN FAMILIES, CHILDREN, WOMEN.

WOMEN WERE RAPED.

PEOPLE WERE KILLED, BABIES WERE BEHEADED.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU SHOULD NOT PUT BEHIND YOU.

IT'S VERY MUCH LIKE SEPTEMBER 11th, AND IT'S VERY MUCH LIKE YOUR WAR ON ISIS.

AND WHEN THE U.S.

ATTACK MOSUL, WELL, SOME COLLATERAL DAMAGE.

AND THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO GAZA, BECAUSE ISRAEL THAT HELPED THE PEOPLE OF GAZA BY LETTING THEM COME TO WORK IN ISRAEL, BY LETTING THEM HAVE THE MONEY, WERE MISLED BY UNBELIEVABLE BRUTAL GOVERNMENT OF HAMAS, AND THIS GOVERNMENT OF HAMAS IS GOING TO PAY.

THE WAY THE NAZIS PAID IN EUROPE, THE WAY ISIS AND AL QAEDA PAID WHEN THEY ATTACKED AMERICANS.

SO, IT -- WE CHANGED THE RULES OF THE GAME.

HOWEVER, WE WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AS AMERICAN FORCES FOUGHT ACCORDING TO THE INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AND THE INTERNATIONAL LAW IS SAYING, IF YOU WANT TO WIN THE WAR, YOU HAVE TO TARGET YOUR ENEMIES, AND THERE IS THE PROPORTIONALITY PRINCIPLE, THAT ALLOW THAT SOME COLLATERAL DAMAGE WILL BE THERE, TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE OF WINNING THE WAR.

AND WE ARE IN WAR.

>> I KNOW THAT, AND I NOW WANT TO ASK YOU, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AND FROM WHAT YOU KNOW, FROM YOUR POSITION, WHO IS THE ACTUAL OBJECTIVE?

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER AN ACTUAL OBJECTIVE HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED BY THE PRIME MINISTER, OTHER THAN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY AVENGING WHAT HAPPENED AND ALSO DECIMATING AND CHANGING THE RULES OF THE GAME, DECIMATING HAMAS AND AS ONE IDF SPOKESMAN SAID TODAY, CHANGING THE RULES OF THE DAY.

WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN?

DOES THAT MEAN FIGHTING UNTIL THERE'S NO LONGER HAMAS IN CHARGE, OR ANYWHERE ABLE TO EXERT ANY AUTHORITY IN GAZA?

>> YEAH, CHANGING THE PARADIGM.

THE PARADIGM WAS, WE CAN LIVE WITH HAMAS.

IT IS A DETERRED ORGANIZATION.

WE MAY NEED TO HAVE A MINI-WAR AROUND EVERY FOUR, FIVE YEARS, BUT THEY WILL NOT GO TO A FULL-SCALE WAR.

THIS PARADIGM WAS WRONG.

WE ALLOWED THEM TO BUILD UP A MILITARY THAT THREATENS ISRAEL, AND DESTROYED THE WHOLE REGION OF WESTERN -- THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

SO, TO YOUR QUESTION, THE OBJECTIVE IS TO REDUCE HAMAS CAPABILITY TO THREATEN ISRAEL TO THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE.

AND THIS MEAN DESTROYING THEIR MILITARY POWER, AND DESTROYING THEIR GOVERNMENT'S POWER.

>> SO, DOES THAT MEAN -- DOES THAT MEAN THAT ISRAEL THEN, WHAT, THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

DOES ISRAEL -- IS ISRAEL ALSO COUNTING IN THE POSSIBILITY OF GOING BACK IN AND RULING?

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THAT HAPPENS?

>> WE WILL DO WHAT IS NEEDED AT THAT TIME.

WE ARE STILL IN THE PROCESS OF CLEARING FROM HAMAS MURDERERS AND RESTORE THE FENCE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE IS CONDUCTING A VERY AGGRESSIVE BOMBING CAMPAIGN AGAINST ANY TARGET THAT BELONGS TO HAMAS IN GAZA.

AND UNLIKE THE PAST, WE ARE NOT GIVING A SPECIFIC WARNING.

IN THE PAST, WE USED TO CALL THE TERRORISTS AND TELL THEM, PLEASE EVACUATE YOUR APARTMENT.

NOT ANYMORE.

ANYTHING THAT'S CONNECTED TO HAMAS, COMMAND POSTS, INTELLIGENCE POSTS, LOGISTIC, PRODUCTION, WILL BE TARGETED ALL OVER GAZA UNTIL WE WILL REDUCE THE CAPABILITY TO THREATEN ISRAEL CLOSE TO ZERO.

CLOSE TO ZERO.

AND I MUST TELL YOU ANOTHER THING.

WE ARE LIVING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AS WE SAW, WHEN YOU ARE WEAK AND YOUR ENEMY TAKING YOU OVER, IT'S A PROGRAM.

WE NEED TO SHOW, TO DEMONSTRATE, TO OTHER ENEMIES LIKE HEZBOLLAH, LIKE SYRIA, LIKE IRAN, THAT ANYBODY WHO IS DREAMING ABOUT DUPLICATING WHAT HAMAS HAS DONE, WILL SUFFER SOME THINGS THEY HAVEN'T DREAMED ABOUT.

AND GAZA IS A WAY TO REBUILD OUR DETERRENT.

SO, IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY, VERY AGGRESSIVE CAMPAIGN.

>> I HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR, AND I GUESS EVERYBODY WILL BE HEARING YOU.

SO, I GUESS I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU ARE SAYING VERY CLEAR TO REBUILD THE DETERRENCE, BECAUSE I'M ASSUMING YOU AGREE, WHAT HAPPENED ON SATURDAY KNOCKED THE SUPERIORITY OF ISRAEL ON ITS HEAD, I MEAN, THE IDEA THAT THE MILITARY, THE INTELLIGENCE, EVERYBODY WAS CAUGHT SO MUCH BY SURPRISE, DESTROYED THE DECADES-OLD MYTH OF ISRAEL'S SUPERIORITY.

I ASSUME THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND YOU NEED TO REGAIN THAT, BUT HOW DO YOU IMAGINE, AS FORMER HEAD OF MILITARY INTELLIGENCE, THAT THAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> I TELL YOU AGAIN, THERE WILL BE AN AERIAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST ANY TARGET BELONG TO HAMAS IN GAZA.

>> OKAY.

>> AND THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF THEM.

AND THEN -- AND THEN, DON'T RULE OUT A MILITARY MOVE ON THE GROUND.

BECAUSE I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN -- I'M A FIGHTER PILOT, BUT THERE ARE PLACES AND MISSIONS THAT CANNOT BE DONE FROM THERE, SO DON'T RULE OUT GROUND OPERATION THAT, ONCE AGAIN, WILL GO TO EVERY PLACE THAT WE KNOW THAT HAMAS ARE THERE, ESPECIALLY THEIR LEADER, THAT ORDERED -- THE LEADERS THAT ORDERED THE ATTACK.

THEY WILL NOT BE IN GAZA AT THE END OF THE DAY.

THEY WILL NOT BE IN GAZA.

>> OKAY.

AMOS YADLIN -- >> ONCE AGAIN -- >> I WANT TO CONTINUE -- >> PAY ATTENTION TO THE NORTH.

PAY ATTENTION TO THE NORTH.

BECAUSE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA MAY AFFECT THE NORTH, BUT WE CAN SPEAK ABOUT IT TOMORROW.

>> YES.

WE ARE KEEPING AN EYE ON IT, BY THE WAY, AND WE DID ASK THE IDF SPOKESMAN.

AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TONIGHT.

>>> NOW, WE TOLD YOU EARLIER ABOUT THE HORRORS COMMITTED, YOU'VE HEARD AMOS YADLIN, YOU HEARD THE IDF SPOKESPERSON REPEAT WHAT HAPPENED IN SOUTHERN ISRAEL.

THE IDF TOOK JOURNALISTS THERE AFTER THE HAMAS MASSACRE, INCLUDING CORRESPONDENT NIC ROBERTSON.

AND A WARNING, HIS REPORT CONTAINS GRAPHIC CONTENT.

>> Reporter: THE DRIVE INTO KFAR AZA IS CHILLING.

EVIDENCE OF HAMAS' BUTCHERY EVERYWHERE.

THIS ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCE GENERAL SHOCKED AT WHAT HE FOUND.

>> I SAW ABOUT GENERAL EISENHOWER THAT COME TO THE DEATH CAMP IN EUROPE, BRINGS THE PRESS.

YOUNG CHILDREN -- >> Reporter: HE DID THE SAME, INVITING ABOUT 50 JOURNALISTS.

>> YOU WILL SEE.

IT'S A BIG MASSACRE, BIG DISASTER.

>> Reporter: HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN YOUR CAREER BEFORE?

>> NEVER, NEVER.

>> Reporter: LESS THAN A MILE FROM GAZA, 70 HAMAS FIGHTERS STORMED IN HERE EARLY SATURDAY.

SOME EVEN FLYING.

THEY'RE TELLING US THIS IS ONE OF THE PARAGLIDERS THAT FLEW IN HERE.

YOU CAN SEE THE ENGINE HERE, THE PROPELLERS HERE, MADE OF CARBON FIBER.

THE FUEL TANK UP HERE.

AND THE FRAME OF IT AND THE SEAT AT THE FRONT.

THE IDF IN CONTROL NOW, AFTER A TWO-DAY BATTLE.

HAMAS LIE WHERE THEY FELL.

ONLY NOW, TEXT TREATMENTS OF THEIR BARBARITY BECOMING APPARENT.

700-PLUS CIVILIANS LIVED HERE.

HOW MANY WERE KILLED STILL UNCLEAR.

HOW THEY DIED, BRUTALLY APPARENT.

SOME DECAPITATED, THEY SAY.

>> KILLED BABIES IN THE FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS AND THEN KILLED THE PARENTS.

THEY KILL PARENTS AND WE FOUND BABIES BETWEEN THE DOGS AND THE FAMILY THAT KILLED BEFORE HIM.

THEY CUT THE HEAD OF THE PEOPLE.

>> Reporter: EACH BODY BAG SILENT SENT NALL TO THE INTELLIGENCE FAILURE THAT ALLOWED THIS COMMUNITY AND OTHERS NEAR GAZA TO BE OVERRUN.

AND MOTIVATION FOR TROOPS, TOO.

>> WE WAIT TO SWITCH, TO SWITCH OURSELF FROM THE DEFENSE TO THE ATTACK, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE DEFEND OUR PEOPLE AND UNTIL NOW, WE COLLECT -- >> Reporter: WHEN YOU SAY YOU'RE GOING TO ATTACK, WILL YOU BE GOING INSIDE GAZA -- >> I LOOK TO THE NEXT 100 YARD.

>> Reporter: YOU TAKE CARE OF THE NEXT 100 YARDS.

>> AND I FIGHT FOR THE NEXT 100 YARDS AND THEN LOOK FORWARD.

>> Reporter: FORWARD, TO A POSSIBLE SHOWDOWN WITH HAMAS.

HOW AND WHEN STILL TO BE DETERMINED.

>> SO, THAT'S NIC ROBERTSON IN KFAR AZA.

AND THE INFAMOUS RAMPAGE THROUGH THE OUTDOOR MUSIC FESTIVAL KILLED AT LEAST 260 PARTIERS, MANY ARE STILL MISSING, AND THE STORIES KEEP COMING OUT.

SAHAR BEN-SELA IS SHOWN HERE DANCING WITH FRIENDS, JUST HOURS BEFORE THE MASSACRE.

AND I SPOKE TO HIM FROM HOSPITAL IN TEL AVIV, HIS STORY IS DISTURBING TO HEAR.

>> I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR FIRST, IT WAS A PEACE FESTIVAL, AND WE DID NOTHING TO PROVOKE THEM.

WE JUST WAS DANCING AND HAVING FUN.

I CAN'T FORGET THE MOMENT THAT WHEN I GOT IN THE FESTIVAL AND I DON'T KNOW ANYONE THERE, IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE 30,000 PEOPLE, AND JUST GOT INTO THE ENTRANCE AND A GUY THAT I DON'T EVEN KNOW CAME TO ME AND START TO HUG ME AND BLESS ME FOR COMING TO THE FESTIVAL.

WE HAD A SMALL CAMP NEXT TO US OF A GERMAN PEOPLE, JUST TOURISTS WHO CAME ALL THE WAY FROM BERLIN OR WHEREVER THEY CAME, AND WE MADE DRINKS TOGETHER, WE HAD LAUGH, JUST SO MUCH HAPPINESS.

>> WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?

TELL ME HOW YOU GOT WOUNDED.

>> IT'S A BIG STORY.

THE FIRST MOMENT THAT WE REALIZED THAT THERE IS MISSILES, I WAS REALLY CALM AT FIRST.

BECAUSE IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN MISSILES.

I WAS FIGHTING AT THE TIME AND I WAS DOING -- I'VE BEEN SERVING THE ARMY, AND THEN I STARTED TO WATCH THE MISSILES, AND ONE OF THE PRODUCERS OF THE FESTIVAL JUST JUMP ON THE FENCE AND SCREAMED THAT THE TERRORISTS ARE COMING ON LAND, NOT JUST FROM MISSILE.

AND THEN THE PANIC BEGIN.

IT WAS A BIG PANIC.

EVERYBODY WAS JUMPING ON THE FENCE.

EVERYBODY RUN TO THEIR CARS AND IT WAS A LOT OF FIRE OUT THERE, JUST -- EVEN IN THE BIGGEST, WORST THING THAT WE'VE SEEN IN MOVIES, I CAN'T EXPLAIN HOW MANY BULLETS AND MISSILES WERE FLYING AROUND US.

NOT THE BIG MISSILE LIKE RPG AND EVERYTHING, IT WAS RPG ALL OVER.

I WAS FIGHTING IN A WAR, NEVER SEEN SO MANY RPGs, SERIOUSLY.

>> AND HOW DID YOU GET SHOT?

HOW DID YOU GET SHOT?

>> THAT'S PART OF THE STORY.

WE TRIED TO GO TO ANOTHER PLACE AND THEY TURN US AROUND AGAIN.

AND WE SAW A POLICEMAN STANDING NEXT TO A SHELTER AND A LOT OF CARS, AND THE POLICEMAN LOOK AT US, SAY, THERE IS NOWHERE TO RUN, THEY ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE, GET INSIDE THE SHELTER, IT'S THE ONLY WAY.

WE GOT INSIDE THE SHELTER.

I REMEMBER 30 OR 40 PEOPLE, BUT MY FRIEND SAYS IT WAS 60 OR MAYBE EVEN 50 OR 60 PEOPLES.

WE GOT INSIDE THE SHELTER, IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE TWO METERS TALL, LIKE, JUST TWO METERS SQUARE.

AND WE GOT INSIDE AND THEN THE SHOOTING STARTED AND THE POLICEMAN TRIED TO CALM US DOWN.

IT'S NOT THE -- THE TERRORISTS, AND THE SHOOTING WAS COMING ON US.

I COULD FEEL ON THE STANCE OF THE SHELTER, I COULD FEEL THE BULLETS.

IT'S NOT IDF, IT'S NOT IDF.

HE JUST LOOK AT US, SAID, STAY INSIDE.

PULL OUT THE GUN, AND THEN IT WAS MASSIVE SHOTS ALL OVER THE PLACE.

WE COULD SEE THE ENTRANCE OF THE SHELTER A LOT OF BULLETS FLYING INSIDE, BUT THEY COULDN'T GET US, BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T TURN LEFT, BECAUSE IT WAS AN ENTRANCE AND THEN LEFT TO THE SHELTER.

>> SO -- IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU WERE DIRECTED TO TAKE SHELTER, BUT YOU WERE LIKE A CORNERED ANIMAL IN THIS SHELTER, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE -- >> IT WASN'T THE SHELTER.

IT WAS ANIMAL SLAUGHTER.

THE POLICE MAN KILLED ONE OF THE TERRORISTS, BUT GOT SHOT AND RUN AWAY.

ONE SECOND.

SORRY.

THEN THEY DROPPED THE FIRST GRENADE, DROP INSIDE, IT WAS EXPLODING AT THE ENTRANCE.

>> I'M SORRY.

IF OUT'S TOO MUCH, DON'T TALK.

>> IT'S OKAY.

IT'S OKAY.

I NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS.

JUST A SECOND, PLEASE.

THANK YOU.

AFTER THE FIRST GRENADE, AFTER SOMETHING LIKE 45 SECONDS, THEY DROPPED THE SECOND GRENADE AND THE WALL HIT MY HEAD AND WENT TO THE BACK OF PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK ROW, AND EXPLODE ON THEM AND THEN IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE A LOT OF SMOKE INSIDE AND MY FRIEND, GIRLFRIEND STARTED TO CHOKE AND SHE WANTED TO GO OUT, AND SHE START TO RUN AWAY FROM THE SHELTER, WE TRIED TO CATCH HER, I REMEMBER, I WAS IN THE SECOND ROW OF THE PEOPLE.

I TRIED TO CATCH HER WITH MY HAND AND IT WAS SLIPPING, AND SHE TACKLE, I THINK SHE TACKLE THE TERRORIST AND HE SHOT HER DEAD FROM ZERO -- FROM -- >> POINT BLANK.

POINT BLANK.

>> POINT BLANK, YES.

YES.

FROM POINT BLANK.

AND AFTER HE SHOT HER DEAD, IT JUST GOT INSIDE.

I COULD NEVER FORGET THE FACE OF IT, HE WAS SMILING AT US.

LOOKS LIKE THE DEVIL.

JUST LOOKED AT US, POINT THE GUN, THE MACHINE GUN AND IN FRONT OF A GIRL'S FACE, AND JUST START TO SPREAD EVERYTHING AROUND.

ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE FIRST ROW, IN THE SECOND ROW, SHOT DEAD.

I JUST OPENED MY EYES AND OPENED MY MOUTH AND START TO GO DOWN THE WALL, BECAUSE I GOT HIT.

I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHERE YET, BECAUSE IT WAS BLOOD ALL OVER AND SCREAMING.

I COULDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED.

AND I THINK HIS GUN WAS BROKEN, THAT'S WHY HE STOPPED THE SHOT.

AND THERE WAS A THIRD GRENADE INSIDE THE BUILDING, BUT IT DIDN'T EXPLODE.

WE DIDN'T WANT TO TOUCH IT, SO IT WOULDN'T EXPLODE.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT, SAHAR, I -- I'M JUST PLEASED THAT YOU MADE IT OUT.

WHAT A COMPLETE AND UTTER HORROR.

>> I WISH IT WAS A HORROR.

IN MOVIE, YOU CAN GO OUT SOMEWHERE.

WE HAD NO CHOICE.

I SAW KIDS THAT -- THE BODIES FULL OF BULLETS, A GIRL THAT, ALL HER BODY PARTS ON THE FLOOR AND SHE WAS CRAWLING TO HER BOYFRIEND AND DEAD BOYFRIEND AND START TO KISS HIM UNTIL SHE DIED BY HERSELF.

>> WOW.

I'M SO SORRY, I'M SO SORRY FOR YOU, I'M SO HAPPY THAT YOU SURVIVED.

AND WE WISH YOU ALL THE BEST AND WE THANK YOU FOR THIS STORY, BECAUSE AS YOU SAY, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR WHAT HAPPENED.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, SAHAR.

>> THANK YOU.

JUST REALLY WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR, JUST A LAST THING, IT WASN'T A WAR.

IT WAS A SLAUGHTER.

SERIOUSLY.

IT WASN'T A WAR.

IT WAS A BIG SLAUGHTER THAT THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT ANIMALS OR PEOPLE.

DIDN'T CARE IF YOU ARE A JEW OR AMERICAN, A CHRISTIAN, EVEN A MUSLIM, THEY KILLED EVEN MUSLIMS, THEY KILLED THEM.

THEY DIDN'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING.

>> THAT WAS PART OF MY CONVERSATION WITH SAHAR IN HOSPITAL IN TEL AVIV.

TOO DIFFICULT.

>>> AHEAD OF U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN'S ARRIVAL IN ISRAEL ON THURSDAY, A PLANE FULL OF U.S.

MUNITIONS LANDED THERE TODAY.

AT LEAST 22 AMERICANS HAVE BEEN KILLED ALSO IN ISRAEL.

A SPOKESMAN FOR THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT CONFIRMED THAT TODAY.

JOINING ME ON THESE DEVELOPMENTS IS BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST KIM GHATTAS.

SHE'S A CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR "THE EXTENSIVELY COVERED THE U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT, AS WELL AS THE MIDDLE EAST.

WELCOME FROM BEIRUT.

KIM, CLEARLY, THIS IS, YOU KNOW, VERY, VERY EMOTIONAL STUFF, AND WE PUT WARNINGS ON BECAUSE IT IS REALLY, REALLY HARD TO LISTEN TO, AND I JUST WONDER, YOU KNOW, YOUR REACTION TO ALL OF THIS, SINCE IT'S BEEN UNFOLDING.

YOU'RE A JOURNALIST, AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, SINCE SATURDAY.

>> CHRISTIANE, IT'S BEEN AWFUL TO WATCH THESE IMAGES COMING OUT OF ISRAEL OF -- AS YOUR GUEST WAS PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBING, A REAL SLAUGHTER.

THE IMAGES ARE HORRIFIC.

THE CONTEXT IS HORRIFIC.

AND WHAT'S UNFOLDING NOW, AS WELL, WITH THE ISRAELI ARMY BOMBING GAZA ONLY REMINDS US THAT THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE IN THIS REGION SEEMS ABSOLUTELY ENDLESS.

WE'VE BEEN LIVING WITH THIS, INCLUDING HERE IN LEBANON, FOR SO MANY YEARS.

IT'S VERY WORRYING TO SEE THE POTENTIAL FOR A REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION, BECAUSE WE'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THE DIFFERENT PLAYERS THAT ARE INVOLVED HERE BEYOND HAMAS ON THE GROUND, AND THERE ARE, OF COURSE, REAL RISKS THAT THIS BECOMES A REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION.

I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM BEIRUT, WHERE, OF COURSE, PEOPLE ARE VERY TENSE, AS WELL.

WE'VE LIVED THROUGH WAR BEFORE.

I GREW UP IN THE CIVIL WAR, WE'VE BEEN THROUGH WAR, AS WELL, BETWEEN HEZBOLLAH AND ISRAEL.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LEAVING SOUTHERN LEBANON TODAY OUT OF FEAR THAT THERE MIGHT BE AN ESCALATION ON THAT BORDER.

SO FAR, IT APPEARS THAT HEZBOLLAH IS CHOOSING TO VERY CAREFULLY SIGNAL ITS SUPPORT FOR HAMAS, BUT IS STILL REFRAINING FROM ENTERING THIS CONFLICT FULLY.

BUT OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, MISCALCULATIONS HAPPEN -- CAN HAPPEN AT ANY MINUTE.

>> AND WE OBVIOUSLY SPOKE TO THE IDF SPOKESPERSON EARLIER ABOUT THAT, AND HE EXPLAINED WHAT HAD BEEN GOING ON UP THERE.

I WANT TO ASK YOU TO REACT TO WHAT THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE SULLIVAN HAS SAID REGARDING THE DEPLOYMENT OF THESE NOW TWO AIRCRAFT CARRIER STRIKE GROUPS TO THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN.

LET'S JUST PLAY WHAT HE SAID.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DIRECTION, THE U.S. MILITARY HAS ENHANCED ITS FORCE POSTURE IN THE REGION TO STRENGTHEN OUR DETERRENCE, INCLUDING THE MOVEMENT OF A CARRIER STRIKE GROUP INTO THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN.

AND WE ARE PREPARED TO MOVE ADDITIONAL ASSETS AS NECESSARY.

LET ME BE CLEAR.

WE DID NOT MOVE THE CARRIER FOR HAMAS.

WE MOVED THE CARRIER TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE OF DETERRENCE TO OTHER STATES OR NON-STATE ACTORS THAT MIGHT SEEK TO WIDEN THIS WAR.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, WE JUST TALKED ABOUT OTHER STATE ACTORS, LIKE -- NON-STATE ACTORS, HEZBOLLAH, STATE ACTORS LIKE IRAN, AND THERE BEEN A SUGGESTION FROM AN ISRAELI OFFICIAL THAT IRAN GAVE A GREEN LIGHT.

NOW, THE U.S. SAYS IT HAS NO PROOF OF THAT, AND HAS YET NOT BEEN ABLE TO CONFIRM THAT.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM YOUR PART OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD?

>> THERE IS, OF COURSE, A LONG-STANDING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN HAMAS AND IRAN.

HAMAS OFFICIALS AND MILITANTS HAVE SAID THAT THEY GET WEAPONS AND FUNDING FROM IRAN.

THE RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN UNEASY IRAN'S INVOLVEMENT ON THE SIDE OF BASHAR AL ASSAD IN SYRIA.

HAMAS TOOK A STEP BACK FROM THAT.

THEY ARE GETTING CLOSER AGAIN, AND WE'RE HEARING ABOUT THE UNIFICATION OF FRONTS.

THAT MEANS ENCIRCLING ISRAEL WITH FIRE FROM SOUTHERN LEBANON, HEZBOLLAH, HAMAS IN GA SAE, AND OF COURSE THE PRESENCE OF MILITANTS, AS WELL, IN SYRIA.

THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH.

IT'S BEEN VERY INTERESTING TO HEAR THE DIFFERENT STATEMENTS COMING OUT OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS FROM THE DIFFERENT GROUPS, AND FROM IRAN.

THERE WAS A VERY CLEAR EFFORT BY HEZBOLLAH TO SAY THEY SUPPORT THEIR BROTHERS IN -- FROM HAMAS.

THAT THIS IS ALSO A MESSAGE TO ANY COUNTRY THAT IS EFFORTING TO NORMALIZE RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL, THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT SAUDI ARABIA, OF COURSE.

BUT WHAT STRUCK ME MOST WAS ONE OF THE STATEMENTS FROM THE CHIEF OF HAMAS, SAYING THAT THIS SHOWS THAT ISRAEL CANNOT PROTECT YOU.

YOU ARAB COUNTRIES THAT ARE SEEKING TO NORMALIZE.

AND THAT TO ME SOUNDS VERY MUCH LIKE A VEILED THREAT.

BUT WHAT STRUCK ME EVEN MORE IS THE DENIAL FROM IRAN ITSELF, FROM THE SUPREME LEADER, SAYING THAT IRAN WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THIS.

AND IT SOUNDS TO ME, WHEN YOU PUT THAT TOGETHER WITH STATEMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES, FROM WASHINGTON, D.C., INCLUDING FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE, SAYING THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF IRAN INVOLVEMENT, BUT THEY MUST BE COMPLICIT, IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE EVERYBODY IS WORRIED THAT THIS COULD REACH A REGIONAL CONFLAGRATION, INCLUDING THE IRANIANS, AND THEY WANT TO TAKE THIS STEP BY STEP.

BUT AS I SAID, CHRISTIANE, THE RISK OF MISCALCULATION IS ABSOLUTELY THERE.

AND HAMAS' GAME PLAN IS FRANKLY UNCLEAR.

THIS SOUNDS LIKE A LAST STAND.

BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY'RE GOING TO GET HIT HARD AND UNFORTUNATELY -- UNFORTUNATELY, PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS ARE GOING TO SUFFER.

>> YEAH, IT'S TERRIBLE, AS YOU SAY, FOR THE CIVILIANS THERE, AS WELL, MORE THAN 1,000, WE UNDERSTAND, FROM THE AUTHORITIES YOU HAVE BEEN KILLED.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

YOU WROTE A PIECE IN "THE FINANCIAL TIMES," SUBTITLED, EVERY FRESH ATTEMPT TO WIPE OUT THESE GROUPS ONLY FORCES MORE EXTREME ITERATIONS.

SO, YOU TALKED ABOUT LEBANON, YOU KNOW, TO DRIVE OUT THE PLO IN 1982 AND ON AND ON.

AND WE DON'T QUITE KNOW.

I TRIED TO PRESS ALL THE OFFICIALS, WHAT IS THE END GAME HERE, IS IT TO PUT ISRAEL BACK IN CHARGE OF GAZA, WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU DECAPITATE AND REMOVE HAMAS?

WHAT -- REMIND US OF HOW THIS EXTREMISM HAS GOT WORSE AND WORSE OVER THE DECADES.

>> WELL, WHEN THE ISRAELIS INVADED IN 1982, THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD CLEAN UP LEBANON FROM THE PRESENCE OF PALESTINIAN MILITANTS, THE PLO, AND TO THAT EXTENT, THAT WAS SUCCESSFUL, BECAUSE THE PLO DID LEAVE, OF COURSE, IT LED TO DEVASTATION IN BEIRUT, A SIEGE, NO FOOD, NO WATER, NO FUEL FOR TWO MONTHS.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE HEARING THAT AGAIN ABOUT GAZA.

IT LED TO THE HORRIFIC MASSACRE IN THE PALESTINIAN CAMP, CARRIED OUT BY ISRAEL'S CHRISTIAN ALLIES, BUT IN THE BIGGER PICTURE, IT CAUSED THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT ISRAEL WAS HOPING TO ACHIEVE.

IT WANTED TO -- ARIEL SHARON AT THE TIME WANTED TO CHANGE THE MIDDLE EAST, HE THOUGHT HE COULD DEFEAT THE PLO, MAKE PEACE WITH LEBANON, BRING SYRIA TO ITS KNEES, BECAUSE SYRIA TOOK A REAL BEATING DURING THAT INVASION, AND WHAT DID YOU GET INSTEAD?

YOU GET THE CRYSTALLIZATION OF THE AXIS OF RESISTANCE.

IT WAS THE BIRTH OF HEZBOLLAH, THE ARRIVAL OF IRAN, TWO DAYS AFTER THE ISRAELIS INVADED, A PLANE LOAD OF REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS ARRIVED IN SYRIA AND TRAVELED TO LEBANON.

AND, OF COURSE, SYRIA FOUND A ROLE AS THE SPOILER OF AMERICA'S AGENDA IN THE REGION, IN ALLIANCE WITH IRAN.

THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN DECAPITATE A MILITANT GROUP HASN'T WORKED FOR ISRAEL.

THAT'S WHAT THEY KEEP TRYING TO DO.

THEY'VE DONE THIS IN LEBANON, NOT JUST IN '82, BUT IN 2006 WITH HEZBOLLAH, AND IT DOESN'T WORK.

IT DOESN'T WORK.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME RESTRAINT, AND THAT IS ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, BECAUSE WE MUST REMEMBER, THE CIVILIANS WILL PAY THE PRICE IN GAZA, WHO REALLY HAVE NOT MANY -- NOT MANY PLACES TO GO TO.

AND WE MUST THINK ABOUT THE BIGGER PICTURE.

WITHOUT ANY CONCESSIONS AT SOME POINT TO THE PALESTINIANS TO ADDRESS THE CORE OF THE ISSUE, WHICH IS THE OCCUPATION, WE WILL KEEP SEEING THESE CYCLES OF VIOLENCE WITH EXTREME IDEAS ON VERY VIOLENT MIMILITANCY, AND EXTREME RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENTS LIKE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S GOVERNMENT.

>> AND AS WE'VE ASKED EVERY OFFICIAL SO FAR, THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF INVESTIGATION AFTER THE FACT, AS TO HOW THIS HAPPEN AND HOW THE GOVERNMENT CLEARLY HAD ITS EYE OFF THE BALL.

THANK YOU, KIM GHATTAS.

>>> WE TOLD YOU THAT GAZA'S MAIN ELECTRIC PLANT HAS SHUT DOWN, AND NOW, THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH THERE IS SAYING HOSPITALS ON GENERATORS WILL RUN OUT OF FUEL BY THURSDAY.

THESE FACILITIES ARE ALREADY OVERWHELMED, AS ISRAEL CONTINUES TO HAMMER GAZA WITH RETALIATORY STRIKES AGAINST HAMAS POSITIONS, BUT SO MANY OTHERS ARE GETTING KILLED, AS WELL, ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRIES THERE.

MORE THAN 1,100 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED, ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH.

AND THAT INCLUDES FOUR PARAMEDICS, WHOSE AMBULANCE WAS THERE ARE SOME OF OUR COLLEAGUES, AS WELL.

I'M JOINED MOSAB ABU TOHA.

IN AN OPINION POST FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST," HE WRITES, "IN GAZA, NO ONE CAN BELIEVE THEIR EYES."

SO, MOSAB ABU TOHA, WELCOME.

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE EXPERIENCING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW.

>> THE EXPLOSIONS, THAT HAS DROPPED -- THAT ARE DROPPED BY ISRAEL FROM TIME TO TIME, AND -- WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF WATER YOU , RUNNING OUT OF ELECTRICITY, WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF MEDICINE, AND WE ARE FULL OF FEAR OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> HAVE YOU -- YOU KNOW, YOU'VE OBVIOUSLY LIVED THROUGH MANY ROUNDS OF THIS.

HOW DOES THIS COMPARE WITH PREVIOUS TIMES THAT THERE HAVE BEEN THESE AIR STRIKES AND OTHER, YOU KNOW, MILITARY OPERATIONS INSIDE GAZA?

>> WELL, I THINK ISRAEL IS FOCUSING ON SOME AREAS FROM TIME TO TIME.

JUST YESTERDAY, THEY STARTED BOMBING AN AREA THAT'S JUST A FEW KILOMETERS AWAY FROM ME.

ABOUT 20 PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

SO, THEY KEPT BOMBING THAT AREA FOR ABOUT TWO HOURS.

AND JUST EARLIER YESTERDAY, THEY ALSO BOMBED ANOTHER NEIGHBORHOOD, WHICH IS CONSIDERED MORE SECURE, ONE OF THE MOST SECURE AREAS IN THE GAZA STRIP.

BUT NOW, I LOOK AT THE PICTURES ON FACEBOOK AND DIFFERENT MEDIA, AND I CANNOT RECOGNIZE WHETHER THIS BUILDING WAS A HOSPITAL, WHETHER IT WAS A CLINIC, WHETHER IT WAS A TOWER, OR MAYBE A PHARMACY OR A KINDERGARTEN EVEN.

THEY CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE BY CONTINUING TO BOMB THE PLACE FOR HOURS NONSTOP.

AND ALSO, BY PULLING DOWN HOUSES ON TOPS OF THE PEOPLE INSIDE OF THEM.

NOW, BY JUST A FEW HOURS AGO, THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR PUBLISHED A STATEMENT THAT SAYS THAT ABOUT 23 FAMILIES, 23 WHOLE FAMILIES WERE WIPED OUT FROM HISTORY.

WE DON'T KNOW WHO IS NEXT.

IN MY HOUSE, I HAVE ABOUT FOUR FAMILIES, I HAVE MY FAMILY, MY BROTHER'S FAMILY, TWO SISTERS OF MINE THAT HAD TO MOVE TO OUR PLACE, BECAUSE THE HOUSE WAS CRITICALLY DAMAGED BY A NEIGHBORING BOMB.

WE HAVE TEN CHILDREN INSIDE THE HOUSE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING?

>> THE OLDEST IS 80 YEARS OLD.

>> MOSAB, THE IMAGES OF THE DOZENS OF ISRAELIS HAUNT ME.

HOW COULD THE MILITANTS KILL ALL THESE SOLDIERS AND TAKE SO MANY OTHERS AS PRISONERS?

YOU CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT ISRAEL WILL KILL HUNDREDS, EVEN THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

I'VE NEVER FELT SO TERRIFIED.

SO, YOU KNEW WHEN HAMAS -- YOU KNEW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AFTER THIS UNPRECEDENTED ATTACK INSIDE ISRAEL?

>> YEAH, I -- I KNOW AS A GAZAN MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE AS A GAZAN, BECAUSE ISRAEL HAS BEEN MAD AT US, HAS BEEN BOMBING US AND KILLING HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS, WITHOUT ANY MILITANTS FROM HAMAS, FROM THE GAZA STRIP, INFILTRATING AND INVADING THE NEIGHBORS TOWNS AND CITIES.

AND NOW, WITH THIS KIND OF LAND INVASION BY THE MILITANTS, I CAN IMAGINE, IF THEY KILLED 1,000 OR 2,000 IN MAY 2021, THEY WOULD KILL MAYBE TEN TIMES MORE THAN THAT.

I WOULD EXPECT THAT, BECAUSE ISRAEL KILLS US WITHOUT HAMAS DOING -- GOING INTO ISRAEL, PRISONERS, ESPECIALLY SOLDIERS.

I MEAN, THIS WAS, OF COURSE, VERY HUMILIATING FOR ISRAEL, AND -- >> ALL RIGHT, MOSAB.

>> THISSER IF IF TERRIFIES US.

>> YEAH, I HEARD WHAT YOU SAID.

IT TERRIFIES YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NOW, ON A DIFFERENT ANGLE, TODAY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY HAS WARNED THE WORLD IS IN A SITUATION WHERE WAR CAN BREAK OUT AT ANY CONTINENT AT ANY TIME, AS MULTIPLE CONFLICTS DOMINATE HEADLINES RIGHT NOW.

A POLITICAL CRISIS IS BREWING ALL ACROSS THE WORLD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, IN GUATEMALA.

THE NATION'S ATTORNEY GENERAL IS ATTEMPTING TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF THE LATEST ELECTION, AFTER THE OPPOSITION SECURED A SURPRISE VICTORY.

PER BERNARDO AREVALO WON THE ELECTION, AND I SPOKE TO HIM EARLIER ABOUT THE CRISIS UNFOLDING IN HIS COUNTRY, AND ALSO IN ISRAEL.

PRESIDENT-ELECT, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MS. AMANPOUR.

>> THANK YOU.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, IN THE MIDST OF A TERRIBLE CRISIS ACROSS THE WORLD, YOUR FATHER, ON HIS WATCH, GUATEMALA WAS ONE OF THE FIRST COUNTRIES TO RECOGNIZE THE STATE OF ISRAEL IN 1948, AND YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN A DIPLOMAT THERE.

I WONDER WHAT YOU'RE THINKING AND FEELING ABOUT THIS UNPRECEDENTED CRISIS RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS A TERRIBLE CRISIS THAT ONCE MORE MAKES IT ABSOLUTELY EVIDENCE THERE NEEDS TO BE PEACE IN THAT PART OF THE REGION.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

FAR FROM PEACE, ISRAEL HAS DECLARED WAR IN AN EFFORT TO, YOU KNOW, AVENGE ITSELF FOR MASS MURDER.

HOW DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO UNFOLD?

YOU KNOW THAT REGION VERY WELL.

>> WELL, I'M -- I THINK THAT WE HAVE SEEN ALL AROUND THE WORLD THAT THE NEED FOR PEACE ARISES PRECISELY FROM MOMENTS AS DEPRIVED AS THIS ONE.

AS PAINFUL AS THEY ARE.

WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE VIOLENCE THAT IS NOT PREVAILING IN THE REGION AFTER THE TERRORIST ATTACK BY HAMAS MAKES IT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY THAT EVERYBODY RENEWS EFFORT TO TRY AND FIND A JUST PEACE N THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND LOOK AND JUST AT THE MOMENT IN WHICH THIS LOOKS MORE DIFFICULT BECAUSE OF THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE THAT IS CURRENTLY GOING ON, JUST BECAUSE OF THAT AND PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THAT, WE NEED TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR THAT A PEACEFUL SOLUTION NEEDS TO BE FOUND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, SO THAT THE PEOPLES IN THE REGION CAN LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY.

>> YOU KNOW, A YEAR AGO, YOU MET WITH THE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND YOU TWEETED, THE SOLUTION TO THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE IS THE CREATION OF A STATE FOR EACH PEOPLE WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND PEACE NEGOTIATIONS WITH MULTILATERAL SUPPORT.

SO, DO YOU STILL BELIEVE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION CAN BE EXTRACTED FROM THE ASHES OF WHAT WE SEE TODAY?

AND ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, THE U.S. HAD TAKEN ITS EYE OFF THE BALL, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WAS, YOU KNOW, THINKING OF OTHER THINGS, LIKE ITS OWN DOMESTIC CRISES, AND THERE'S BEEN NO MOVEMENT TO THAT.

DO YOU THINK IT'S STILL A POSSIBILITY?

>> I THINK THAT THAT IS THE SOLUTION THAT WAS ENVISIONED IN 1947, 1948, AND I THINK THAT IS STILL THE BEST AVAILABLE PLAN FOR A PEACEFUL SOLUTION IN THE REGION.

>> LET ME MOVE ONTO YOU, BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THIS IS ALL ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

YOU HAVE BEEN ELECTED, AND YET, YOU KNOW, YOUR OWN ATTORNEY GENERAL IS BEING ACCUSED OF TRYING TO TAKE YOU FROM YOUR SEAT.

GUATEMALANS IN THE STREETS.

ARE YOU GOING TO BE ABLE TO TAKE YOUR LEGITIMATE SEAT?

>> I BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY WILL BE UPHELD FUNDAMENTALLY, BECAUSE THERE IS A VERY WIDE SUPPORT AMONG THE POPULATION FOR A CHANGE.

A CHANGE FROM THE CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS THAT WE HAVE BEEN HAVING IN THE LAST 20, 25 YEARS, AND THIS HAS BEEN VERY CLEARLY EXPRESSED IN THE ELECTIONS, AND IN THE SUPPORT THAT THIS TRANSITION HAS BEEN ENJOYING EVER SINCE WE WON THE ELECTION RESOUNDINGLY.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THAT PRECISELY THERE IS AN ENTRENCHED CLIQUE OF CORRUPT POLITICIANS THAT ARE USING THEIR REMAINING CONTROL OVER STATE INSTITUTIONS, IN THIS CASE, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, TO TRY TO SOMEHOW DERAIL, AND SOME THINK THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN CLARIFIED AND DECREED BY THE ELECTORAL AUTHORITIES THAT THERE ISSAL PRESIDENT, VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT IN THE COUNTRY, AND THEY SHOULD TAKE OATH OF OFFICE ON THE 14th OF JANUARY.

THEY HAVE BEEN MAKING EFFORTS, AND THIS IS WHAT IS GENERATING THE POLITICAL CRISIS WE ARE CURRENTLY FACING.

>> THE PROTESTS TURNED VIOLENT.

AND YOU DESCRIBED THE SITUATION HAPPENING AS A COUP D'ETAT.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN?

>> YEAH, WELL, THE COUP D'ETAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, THE INFILTRATION OF VIOLENT ELEMENTS INTO WHAT HAS BEEN ALMOST COMPLETELY PEACEFUL CAMPAIGN OF PROTESTS BY THE PEOPLE IN THE LAST WEEKS.

MY COMMENTS ON AN ONGOING COUP D'ETAT REFER TO THE WAY IN WHICH THE GENERAL ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IS TRYING TO ALTER ELECTORAL RESULTS AND, YOU KNOW, BREAK CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER THROUGH THIS ILLEGITIMATE LAW FIRM THAT IS CONDUCTING AGAINST THE ELECTORAL AUTHORITIES AND AGAINST OUR GOVERNMENT.

>> HOW WILL YOU BE ABLE TO FIGHT CO CORRUPTION, WHICH IS WHAT YOU RAN ON?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, BECAUSE ONCE WE TAKE CONTROL OVER GOVERNMENT, OVER EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, THE FUNDING THAT HAS BEEN OILING THE MACHINERY OF CORRUPTION HAS BEEN THAT OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS IN THE COUNTRY, WHICH HAVE BEEN THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN DIVERTED INTO ALL SORTS OF CORRUPT SCHEMES BETWEEN POLITICIANS AND CORRUPT BUSINESSMEN AT DIFFERENT LEVELS, A LOT OF LEVEL, NATIONAL LEVEL.

AND WHAT WE ARE DOING, WE ARE CLOSING THAT POSSIBILITY, EVERYBODY IS VERY CLEAR THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE SIMPLY THOUGH WAY NO WAY TO ENGAGE IN CORRUPT BUSINESSES USING THE INFRASTRUCTURE FUNDING FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND THIS IS TRANSFORMING THE SCENE RIP, BECAUSE WHAT HAS BEEN THE KEY ELEMENT TO MAKE THE CORUPTION SYSTEM WORK IS GOING TO DISAPPEAR.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT CORRUPTION, POVERTY, DANGER, VIOLENCE, IS THAT PART OF WHAT IS MAKING GUATEMALA BASICALLY REPRESENTS THE LARGEST NUMBER OF CENTRAL AMERICANS WHO ARE TRYING TO GET INTO THE UNITED STATES?

ACCORDING TO THE U.S., SOME 233,000 ARRIVED AT THE BORDERS LAST YEAR.

DO YOU HAVE A PLAN TO STOP THEM?

AND HOW?

>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM, THE ISSUE OF MIGRATION.

ONE OF THEM IS ACTUALLY TO BRING DEVELOPMENT TO THE REGIONS OF THE COUNTRY THAT HAVE BEEN ABANDONED.

PARTICULARLY IN THE LAST 20 YEARS, WHICH HAVE SEEN NO SIGNIFICANT INVESTMENT IN ANY TYPE OF INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT.

SCHOOLS, AGRICULTURAL PROJECTS, HEALTH FACILITIES, FOR THE POPULATION IN THOSE REGIONS, WHERE THERE IS NO -- SIMPLY NO ECONOMIC OPTION FOR THEM, AND THOSE, THEY ESCAPE AWAY FROM THE COUNTRY AND GO INTO THE UNITED STATES.

SO, WE HAVE A VERY CLEAR PURPOSE TO INVEST PARTICULARLY IN THOSE MOST DEPRIVED AREAS IN THE WESTERN HIGHLANDS OF THE COUNTRY, AND TWO OTHER REGIONS, IN WHICH WE HAVE THE POCKETS OF POVERTY, OF MALNUTRITION, WHICH ARE DRIVING THE POPULATION OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

>> AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS JUST ISSUED A SET OF WAIVERS AND RELEASE FUNDS TO CONTINUE BUILDING SECTIONS OF THE WALL ALONG THE MEXICO BORDER.

HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IT WILL WORK, BUT THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> I'LL ANSWER ONE QUESTION ON THE BORDER WALL.

THE MONEY WAS APPROPRIATED FOR THE BORDER WALL.

I TRIED TO GET THEM TO REDIRECT THAT MONEY.

THEY DIDN'T.

THEY WOULDN'T.

AND IN THE MEANTIME, THERE'S NOTHING UNDER THE LAW OTHER THAN THEY HAVE TO USE THE MONEY FOR WHAT IT WAS APPROPRIATED FOR.

I CAN'T STOP THAT.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THE BORDER WALL WORKS?

>> NO.

>> SO, BIDEN DOESN'T BELIEVE THE BORDER WALL WORKS, AND APPARENTLY THE MEXICAN PRESIDENT ALSO SAYS THAT IT'S, QUOTE, A REGRESSION THAT WON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

DO YOU THINK A WALL WILL WORK?

>> NO.

I THINK THAT A WALL WILL NOT WORK.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE PROBLEM, AND THEN TRY TO FIND WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN MANAGE THE CURRENT MIGRATION THROUGH WAYS THAT CAN ENABLE THEM TO LEGALLY FIND WORK, IN THIS CASE, IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT'S WHY WE ARE ALREADY IN THE VISITS THAT I HAD TO THE UNITED STATES AND THE CONVERSATIONS WE ARE HAVING WITH U.S. OFFICERS HERE, EXPLORING THE OPPORTUNITIES, SO, THAT TOGETHER WITH INVESTMENT IN DEVELOPMENT, THEY THEN -- THEY CAN BEGIN TO BE A MORE PRACTICAL AND SUSTAINABLE SOLUTION TO THE ISSUES OF MIGRATION, CERTAINLY BETTER THAN A WALL.

>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU A TRUMP QUESTION, IF HE BECOMES PRESIDENT, DO YOU THINK HE WOULD ISSUE THOSE WORK, YOU KNOW, TEMPORARY WORK PROGRAMS AND VISAS?

>> WELL, WE BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THAT THERE IS A HIGH DEMAND FOR LABOR, BOTH AGRICULTURAL AND INDUSTRIAL, IN THE UNITED STATES AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

AND WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO MATCH IS PRECISELY THE -- THAT DEMAND WITH THE OFFER THAT EXISTS IN THESE AREAS OF THE COUNTRY, WHICH THEN CAN ENABLE THAT WE HAVE A LEGAL, YOU KNOW, WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE CAN GO WORK IN THE UNITED STATES, THEN GO BACK TO THEIR COMMUNITIES HERE, SO ON AND SO FORTH, SO THAT IT ACTUALLY RESOLVES THE ISSUES OF LABOR DEMAND ON SOME PARTS IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT ALSO PROVIDE LIVELIHOODS TO THIS POPULATION, WHILE OUR DEVELOPMENT PLANS ACTUALLY BEGIN TO YIELD RESULTS.

>> AND JUST ONE FINAL QUESTION.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF PART OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH, AND WHERE THAT ALL HAPPENS, BUT YOU CAN SEE WHAT'S GOING ON, THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE OF OPINION, OF ALLEGIANCE, OF NARRATIVE, FROM THE GLOBAL SOUTH AND THE GLOBAL NORTH, WHETHER IT'S OVER UKRAINE, AND EVEN NOW OVER THE ISRAEL/PALESTINIAN CRISIS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE DANGERS OF THAT MASSIVE GLOBAL SPLIT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ACTUALLY ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WE HAVE AS AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS TO FIND OUR WAYS BACK INTO FINDING MORE INTEGRATED WAYS TO ADDRESS THE WORLD CHALLENGES.

I THINK THAT SPLITS AND WIDENING SPLITS ARE DANGEROUS IN ANY CONDITION, AND THAT WE SHOULD ACTUALLY TRY TO COME BACK AND BEGIN TO BUILD A MORE INTEGRATED APPROACH TO DIFFERENT PROBLEMS AROUND THE WORLD.

OTHERWISE, WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS ONLY DEEPENING PROBLEMS AND AN ENACT TO EFFECTIVELY DEAL WITH THEM AT AN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

>> PRESIDENT-ELECT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MS. AMANPOUR.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD NIGHT FROM LONDON.